Guest guest Posted October 6, 2000 Report Share Posted October 6, 2000 I have seen about a dozen patients who have been treated with prolotherapy here locally. Mixed bag of results. About half had good results - but not all of them permanent. The other half had no results whatsoever. many substances can and are used in prolotherapy : calcium glucarate solutions, human growth hormone, saline solution, etc etc etc. The idea is that the injections caused vaso proliferation in the area to accelerate healing. One DC in Tucson Ok does prolotherapy (especially with the knees) using the product called Traumeel. I have done something similar using what was formerly a Dr. Donsbachs product (now sold by Rockland company) called SuperOxy Pain gel (a DMSO product), and then a topical coating of a chinese herbal liniment called Zheng Gui Shui. Patients get pretty dramatic pain relief. DMSO was first investigated decades ago for use as a non-needle injection. It increases the permeability of the skin for about 1/2 hour to allow the passage of other larger molecules. It was investigated ( and worked) to mix DMSO and insulin for diabetics so they could avoid needle sticks. Most DMSO products can really irritate the skin - but I have never had anyone complain of skin irritation with the Super Oxy product (I have used it for about 8 years). I use a cotton tipped (DMSO is a solvent, but does not dissolve cotton. If the " cotton " balls are made from polyester the DMSO will dissolve some of it and carry polyester particles into the body). swab to apply the Pain gell and the Zheng Gui Shui. Pain gel (and DMSO by itself) can greatly reduce musculotendino pain. THe Zheng Gui Shui is a herbal pain product that also greatly increases circulation (the goal of prolotherapy). So years ago I began combining them. I cannot think of any patient I have had a bad adverse reaction on, and many patients ask for the treatment. A body of pain gell costs about $3 and a bottle of Zheng Gui Shui costs about $5. both will last about 4 months with daily use on perhaps 10 patients a day. So it is inexpensive. Anglen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2000 Report Share Posted October 6, 2000 A Eugene D.O. uses the prolotherapy technique. He claims it offers a permanent repair to the injured ligament. He also says it works best in cases when there has been a distinct traumatic incident. He is the same D.O. who has trained a PT to adjust. DeSiena, D.C. On Fri, 6 Oct 2000 17:17:54 -0700 " L. Kinne" <dcfs@...> writes:> Anybody heard of this. Apparently a MD in town is now offering it > one of my> patients brought it in asking if I had heard of it. I have never > heard of> the pitcher plant. It is an injection of lidocaine, dextrose and > sarapin a> extract from the pitcher plant. Takes a injection every 4-6 week > for> several tx. so says the brochure. Claims to help with arthritis, > h/a's,> DDD, Tendonitis, sports injuries, tennis elbow, low back pain, RSD > pain,> Plantar Fascitis, Frozen shoulder Rotator Cuff injuries, CTS, back > pain,> migraines, herniated disc's, torn cartiliage, fibromyalgia, > whiplash, TMJ,> Sciatica and knee injuries.> > > Thanks> > Steve Kinne> > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor > -------------------------~-~>> GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates > as low as 0.0% Intro or 9.99% Ongoing APR and no annual fee!> Apply NOW!> 1/9331/3/_/141981/_/970877894/> -------------------------------------------------------------------->> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2000 Report Share Posted October 6, 2000 Prolotherapy, and pitcher plant injection therapies are both useful injection techniques, depending on patient selection. Prolo is for lax ligaments, theoretically, which occur post trauma, and can exist from minor trauma in loose ligament people. I have seen it help many patients. The MD down here in so Oregon has good relationship with DCs. Many DCs send him patients who are not responding to our own manipulative care. Pitcher plant is a source of injectible omega 3 fatty acids which has a local anti-inflammatory effect. It can be more effective than just a straight injection of an anesthetic, to help break up trigger points. Just because these are medical tools does not mean they may not help our patients. If you don't know about these tools, you are behind the curve, and not up to date on what is happening in the orthopedic medicine world. The people who use these therapies are our natural allies, they know that standard medicine does not have all the answers and are looking for further answers. Get to know these docs, tell them what you do, what we do. Marc Heller, DC -----Original Message-----From: P DeSiena [mailto:adesiena@...]Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 5:44 PMegroupsSubject: Re: prolotherapy? A Eugene D.O. uses the prolotherapy technique. He claims it offers a permanent repair to the injured ligament. He also says it works best in cases when there has been a distinct traumatic incident. He is the same D.O. who has trained a PT to adjust. DeSiena, D.C. On Fri, 6 Oct 2000 17:17:54 -0700 " L. Kinne" <dcfs@...> writes:> Anybody heard of this. Apparently a MD in town is now offering it > one of my> patients brought it in asking if I had heard of it. I have never > heard of> the pitcher plant. It is an injection of lidocaine, dextrose and > sarapin a> extract from the pitcher plant. Takes a injection every 4-6 week > for> several tx. so says the brochure. Claims to help with arthritis, > h/a's,> DDD, Tendonitis, sports injuries, tennis elbow, low back pain, RSD > pain,> Plantar Fascitis, Frozen shoulder Rotator Cuff injuries, CTS, back > pain,> migraines, herniated disc's, torn cartiliage, fibromyalgia, > whiplash, TMJ,> Sciatica and knee injuries.> > > Thanks> > Steve Kinne> > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor > -------------------------~-~>> GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates > as low as 0.0% Intro or 9.99% Ongoing APR and no annual fee!> Apply NOW!> 1/9331/3/_/141981/_/970877894/> -------------------------------------------------------------------->> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 6, 2000 Report Share Posted October 6, 2000 Prolotherapy is not pitcher plant injections. The combo this doc is using is a combination of some prolo ingredients, specifically the dextrose, they also use heavier duty solutions with glucose and other irritating ingredients, such as phenol. Sarapin, is pitcher plant extract, it is usually used with lidocaine, if I am correct. So I don't know about the combo. prolotherapy? Anybody heard of this. Apparently a MD in town is now offering it one of my patients brought it in asking if I had heard of it. I have never heard of the pitcher plant. It is an injection of lidocaine, dextrose and sarapin a extract from the pitcher plant. Takes a injection every 4-6 week for several tx. so says the brochure. Claims to help with arthritis, h/a's, DDD, Tendonitis, sports injuries, tennis elbow, low back pain, RSD pain, Plantar Fascitis, Frozen shoulder Rotator Cuff injuries, CTS, back pain, migraines, herniated disc's, torn cartiliage, fibromyalgia, whiplash, TMJ, Sciatica and knee injuries. Thanks Steve Kinne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2000 Report Share Posted October 7, 2000 I would recommend that you contact Gracer, MD. I used to practice with him. The guy is brilliant. He has used, taught and wrote about prolo. He is also serving as ChiroView Presents director of general medical. His email is richard@... Hope that sheds some light.... Cheers... Sig ChiroView Presents...Broadcasting weekly to more than 10,800 chiropractorshttp://www.ChiroViewPresents.com Re: prolotherapy? A Eugene D.O. uses the prolotherapy technique. He claims it offers a permanent repair to the injured ligament. He also says it works best in cases when there has been a distinct traumatic incident. He is the same D.O. who has trained a PT to adjust. DeSiena, D.C. On Fri, 6 Oct 2000 17:17:54 -0700 " L. Kinne" <dcfs@...> writes:> Anybody heard of this. Apparently a MD in town is now offering it > one of my> patients brought it in asking if I had heard of it. I have never > heard of> the pitcher plant. It is an injection of lidocaine, dextrose and > sarapin a> extract from the pitcher plant. Takes a injection every 4-6 week > for> several tx. so says the brochure. Claims to help with arthritis, > h/a's,> DDD, Tendonitis, sports injuries, tennis elbow, low back pain, RSD > pain,> Plantar Fascitis, Frozen shoulder Rotator Cuff injuries, CTS, back > pain,> migraines, herniated disc's, torn cartiliage, fibromyalgia, > whiplash, TMJ,> Sciatica and knee injuries.> > > Thanks> > Steve Kinne> > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor > -------------------------~-~>> GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates > as low as 0.0% Intro or 9.99% Ongoing APR and no annual fee!> Apply NOW!> 1/9331/3/_/141981/_/970877894/> -------------------------------------------------------------------->> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 7, 2000 Report Share Posted October 7, 2000 Lindsey, thanks for these thoughts I don't know if it is a substitute for prolo, buts its great to have something topical that might really work. Thanks, PS- with prolo you do initially get pain and swelling in the area, which settles down over a few days. Do you get a warmth or inflammation or temporary increased pain with this combined product. thanks Marc Heller Re: prolotherapy? I have seen about a dozen patients who have been treated with prolotherapy here locally. Mixed bag of results. About half had good results - but not all of them permanent. The other half had no results whatsoever. many substances can and are used in prolotherapy : calcium glucarate solutions, human growth hormone, saline solution, etc etc etc. The idea is that the injections caused vaso proliferation in the area to accelerate healing. One DC in Tucson Ok does prolotherapy (especially with the knees) using the product called Traumeel. I have done something similar using what was formerly a Dr. Donsbachs product (now sold by Rockland company) called SuperOxy Pain gel (a DMSO product), and then a topical coating of a chinese herbal liniment called Zheng Gui Shui. Patients get pretty dramatic pain relief. DMSO was first investigated decades ago for use as a non-needle injection. It increases the permeability of the skin for about 1/2 hour to allow the passage of other larger molecules. It was investigated ( and worked) to mix DMSO and insulin for diabetics so they could avoid needle sticks. Most DMSO products can really irritate the skin - but I have never had anyone complain of skin irritation with the Super Oxy product (I have used it for about 8 years). I use a cotton tipped (DMSO is a solvent, but does not dissolve cotton. If the " cotton " balls are made from polyester the DMSO will dissolve some of it and carry polyester particles into the body). swab to apply the Pain gell and the Zheng Gui Shui. Pain gel (and DMSO by itself) can greatly reduce musculotendino pain. THe Zheng Gui Shui is a herbal pain product that also greatly increases circulation (the goal of prolotherapy). So years ago I began combining them. I cannot think of any patient I have had a bad adverse reaction on, and many patients ask for the treatment. A body of pain gell costs about $3 and a bottle of Zheng Gui Shui costs about $5. both will last about 4 months with daily use on perhaps 10 patients a day. So it is inexpensive. Anglen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2000 Report Share Posted October 8, 2000 Marc, There is no increased inflammation or pain with the product, though it does cause a very noticeable cool feeling. The pain releif is almost immediate and lasts anywhere from 4 -24 hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2006 Report Share Posted June 25, 2006 Who is it here who's so sold on prolo? I'd like to ask you some questions about it. Thanks. Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2006 Report Share Posted June 25, 2006 Hi Ann. I've had prolotherapy done. feel free to ask me any questions. i've been meaning to write about my experience for a while, so here it is. I believe it helped me a lot. I had to try a number of doctors before I found one who gave me enough pain relief to make me believe that it does work. I tried one doctor in NYC who was a great doctor but a terrible prolotherapist. I then went to another doctor who was a good prolotherapist and i improved a lot. But as I started becoming more active, I suddenly got a whole lot worse to the point where I was in severe pain, couldn't do any physical therapy and had an extremely weak left leg which exacerbated the pain. At this point, I was 6 months into the treatment and had had a total of five injections. I was pretty desperate since I wanted to leave and travel for a few months in Asia but couldn't, so i finally made a trip to Chicago to see Dr. Ross Hauser, who has written a bunch of books on prolotherapy. Anyway, after about 3 treatments there, i got significantly better. He added glucosamine and I think a bit of HGH in the injections and he injected the knee in about 10-20 different places, but it worked beautifully. I went to him six times. It created a bit of a dent financially but it was worth it. So here's my situation now: My knee is not perfect, I doubt it ever will be. But it doesn't come in the way of me doing many of the things that I love. I noticed that when i quit my job and traveled, my knee actually felt better from not sitting down for long periods at a stretch. I can cycle but have not reached a point where i can do crazy things like I used to (i've only recently been cyling again). I can hike, I did some fairly steep hikes. I may feel some soreness but nothing so intense that it prevents me from hiking or doing things I want to do. I haven't tried running, but i know my knee won't handle it, unless I condition it, but i don't particularly love running anyway. I can run up and down stairs just fine. I've been able to walk for miles, volunteer at an animal shelter where I had to haul stuff around, can squat down almost completely to get things done etc. There are some bad days, but it's not debilitating and it passes. Others may have more complete success than me, it varies from person to person. I have hypermobile joints, and prolotherapy is more difficult with hypermobility. Along with prolotherapy, i have had to regularly maintain my flexibility, and use a foam roller or a tennis ball (almost everytime i exercise). Strengthening the leg is also super-important. If it gets too weak, prolotherapy isnt' going to be as helpful. i was told to condition my leg by using the bosu. it is a semi-dome that one balances on and does various exercises. it is pretty amazing. Many gyms have a couple lying around. So, in retrospect, I am very happy i decided to undergo those painful jabs. I strongly believe i would not have been able to travel around had i not had the treatments. I do think that it is worth going to a prolotherapist if one can. But it is extremely important to go to a good one. It is definitely not some sort of miraculous cure, but it can help a lot of people and for those who've tried all sorts of things unsuccessfully (and i had), that's all the more reason to try this out. --- Ann <ruby2zdy@...> wrote: > Who is it here who's so sold on prolo? I'd like to > ask you some questions about it. > > Thanks. > > Ann > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2006 Report Share Posted June 25, 2006 Nina: Great post. Thanks for the info. Ann: I think you were referring to me... Ask away! - Doug > > > Who is it here who's so sold on prolo? I'd like to > > ask you some questions about it. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2006 Report Share Posted June 26, 2006 Thanks very much for your detailed reply. It's very helpful. Ann Re: Prolotherapy? Hi Ann. I've had prolotherapy done. feel free to ask me any questions. i've been meaning to write about my experience for a while, so here it is. I believe it helped me a lot. I had to try a number of doctors before I found one who gave me enough pain relief to make me believe that it does work. I tried one doctor in NYC who was a great doctor but a terrible prolotherapist. I then went to another doctor who was a good prolotherapist and i improved a lot. But as I started becoming more active, I suddenly got a whole lot worse to the point where I was in severe pain, couldn't do any physical therapy and had an extremely weak left leg which exacerbated the pain. At this point, I was 6 months into the treatment and had had a total of five injections. I was pretty desperate since I wanted to leave and travel for a few months in Asia but couldn't, so i finally made a trip to Chicago to see Dr. Ross Hauser, who has written a bunch of books on prolotherapy. Anyway, after about 3 treatments there, i got significantly better. He added glucosamine and I think a bit of HGH in the injections and he injected the knee in about 10-20 different places, but it worked beautifully. I went to him six times. It created a bit of a dent financially but it was worth it. So here's my situation now: My knee is not perfect, I doubt it ever will be. But it doesn't come in the way of me doing many of the things that I love. I noticed that when i quit my job and traveled, my knee actually felt better from not sitting down for long periods at a stretch. I can cycle but have not reached a point where i can do crazy things like I used to (i've only recently been cyling again). I can hike, I did some fairly steep hikes. I may feel some soreness but nothing so intense that it prevents me from hiking or doing things I want to do. I haven't tried running, but i know my knee won't handle it, unless I condition it, but i don't particularly love running anyway. I can run up and down stairs just fine. I've been able to walk for miles, volunteer at an animal shelter where I had to haul stuff around, can squat down almost completely to get things done etc. There are some bad days, but it's not debilitating and it passes. Others may have more complete success than me, it varies from person to person. I have hypermobile joints, and prolotherapy is more difficult with hypermobility. Along with prolotherapy, i have had to regularly maintain my flexibility, and use a foam roller or a tennis ball (almost everytime i exercise). Strengthening the leg is also super-important. If it gets too weak, prolotherapy isnt' going to be as helpful. i was told to condition my leg by using the bosu. it is a semi-dome that one balances on and does various exercises. it is pretty amazing. Many gyms have a couple lying around. So, in retrospect, I am very happy i decided to undergo those painful jabs. I strongly believe i would not have been able to travel around had i not had the treatments. I do think that it is worth going to a prolotherapist if one can. But it is extremely important to go to a good one. It is definitely not some sort of miraculous cure, but it can help a lot of people and for those who've tried all sorts of things unsuccessfully (and i had), that's all the more reason to try this out. --- Ann <ruby2zdy@...> wrote: > Who is it here who's so sold on prolo? I'd like to > ask you some questions about it. > > Thanks. > > Ann > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2006 Report Share Posted June 26, 2006 Ann: What you describe definitely sounds like a prolotherapy kinda thing. If you have any connective structures that you feel are weak, prolotherapy can help make them stronger, and ultimately help the kneecap track properly. In my case, my entire left knee was lax. Although my kneecap was in the right spot, there was some lateral flexion in the knee. That is, if you held my knee still, you could push my foot to the left or to the right and there was some " give " . The doc injected pretty much all the supporting structures of the knee: - Medial & Lateral Collateral Ligaments - Lateral Coronary Ligament - Pes Anserinus - Patellar Tendon and I'm sure a bunch of other spots that I don't remember (it was a few years ago). I ended up returning for about six treatments. My knee " tightened up " nicely. It feels more stable, it doesn't give as much side-to-side, and it doesn't " pop " any more if I twist it like it used to. And, most importantly, it hasn't given me any pain since -- and I've been using the heck out of it. Feel free to keep asking questions here, or E-mail if you'd rather. Hope that helps, Doug dougfromct2002@... > > What did you have done? And it worked? > > I was thinking maybe if I had the medial tissues shrunk or made stronger, it would keep my kneecap from being pulled laterally. Does this sound like a prolotherapy kinda thing? > > Thanks. > > Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2006 Report Share Posted June 26, 2006 Thanks. I'm going to print this out. Ann Re: Prolotherapy? Ann: What you describe definitely sounds like a prolotherapy kinda thing. If you have any connective structures that you feel are weak, prolotherapy can help make them stronger, and ultimately help the kneecap track properly. In my case, my entire left knee was lax. Although my kneecap was in the right spot, there was some lateral flexion in the knee. That is, if you held my knee still, you could push my foot to the left or to the right and there was some " give " . The doc injected pretty much all the supporting structures of the knee: - Medial & Lateral Collateral Ligaments - Lateral Coronary Ligament - Pes Anserinus - Patellar Tendon and I'm sure a bunch of other spots that I don't remember (it was a few years ago). I ended up returning for about six treatments. My knee " tightened up " nicely. It feels more stable, it doesn't give as much side-to-side, and it doesn't " pop " any more if I twist it like it used to. And, most importantly, it hasn't given me any pain since -- and I've been using the heck out of it. Feel free to keep asking questions here, or E-mail if you'd rather. Hope that helps, Doug dougfromct2002@... > > What did you have done? And it worked? > > I was thinking maybe if I had the medial tissues shrunk or made stronger, it would keep my kneecap from being pulled laterally. Does this sound like a prolotherapy kinda thing? > > Thanks. > > Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.