Prolotherapy?

[Guest guest]

I have seen about a dozen patients who have been treated with prolotherapy

here locally. Mixed bag of results. About half had good results - but not all

of them permanent. The other half had no results whatsoever. many substances

can and are used in prolotherapy : calcium glucarate solutions, human growth

hormone, saline solution, etc etc etc. The idea is that the injections caused

vaso proliferation in the area to accelerate healing. One DC in Tucson Ok

does prolotherapy (especially with the knees) using the product called

Traumeel. I have done something similar using what was formerly a Dr.

Donsbachs product (now sold by Rockland company) called SuperOxy Pain gel (a

DMSO product), and then a topical coating of a chinese herbal liniment called

Zheng Gui Shui. Patients get pretty dramatic pain relief. DMSO was first

investigated decades ago for use as a non-needle injection. It increases the

permeability of the skin for about 1/2 hour to allow the passage of other

larger molecules. It was investigated ( and worked) to mix DMSO and insulin

for diabetics so they could avoid needle sticks. Most DMSO products can

really irritate the skin - but I have never had anyone complain of skin

irritation with the Super Oxy product (I have used it for about 8 years). I

use a cotton tipped (DMSO is a solvent, but does not dissolve cotton. If the

" cotton " balls are made from polyester the DMSO will dissolve some of it and

carry polyester particles into the body). swab to apply the Pain gell and the

Zheng Gui Shui. Pain gel (and DMSO by itself) can greatly reduce

musculotendino pain. THe Zheng Gui Shui is a herbal pain product that also

greatly increases circulation (the goal of prolotherapy). So years ago I

began combining them. I cannot think of any patient I have had a bad adverse

reaction on, and many patients ask for the treatment. A body of pain gell

costs about $3 and a bottle of Zheng Gui Shui costs about $5. both will last

about 4 months with daily use on perhaps 10 patients a day. So it is

inexpensive.

Anglen

[Guest guest]

A Eugene D.O. uses the prolotherapy technique. He claims it offers a permanent repair to the injured ligament. He also says it works best in cases when there has been a distinct traumatic incident.

He is the same D.O. who has trained a PT to adjust.

DeSiena, D.C.

On Fri, 6 Oct 2000 17:17:54 -0700 " L. Kinne" <dcfs@...> writes:> Anybody heard of this. Apparently a MD in town is now offering it > one of my> patients brought it in asking if I had heard of it. I have never > heard of> the pitcher plant. It is an injection of lidocaine, dextrose and > sarapin a> extract from the pitcher plant. Takes a injection every 4-6 week > for> several tx. so says the brochure. Claims to help with arthritis, > h/a's,> DDD, Tendonitis, sports injuries, tennis elbow, low back pain, RSD > pain,> Plantar Fascitis, Frozen shoulder Rotator Cuff injuries, CTS, back > pain,> migraines, herniated disc's, torn cartiliage, fibromyalgia, > whiplash, TMJ,> Sciatica and knee injuries.> > > Thanks> > Steve Kinne> > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor > -------------------------~-~>> GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates > as low as 0.0% Intro or 9.99% Ongoing APR and no annual fee!> Apply NOW!> 1/9331/3/_/141981/_/970877894/> -------------------------------------------------------------------->> > > >

[Guest guest]

Prolotherapy, and pitcher plant injection therapies are both useful injection techniques, depending on patient selection.

Prolo is for lax ligaments, theoretically, which occur post trauma, and can exist from minor trauma in loose ligament people. I have seen it help many patients. The MD down here in so Oregon has good relationship with DCs. Many DCs send him patients who are not responding to our own manipulative care.

Pitcher plant is a source of injectible omega 3 fatty acids which has a local anti-inflammatory effect. It can be more effective than just a straight injection of an anesthetic, to help break up trigger points.

Just because these are medical tools does not mean they may not help our patients. If you don't know about these tools, you are behind the curve, and not up to date on what is happening in the orthopedic medicine world. The people who use these therapies are our natural allies, they know that standard medicine does not have all the answers and are looking for further answers. Get to know these docs, tell them what you do, what we do.

Marc Heller, DC

-----Original Message-----From: P DeSiena [mailto:adesiena@...]Sent: Friday, October 06, 2000 5:44 PMegroupsSubject: Re: prolotherapy?

A Eugene D.O. uses the prolotherapy technique. He claims it offers a permanent repair to the injured ligament. He also says it works best in cases when there has been a distinct traumatic incident.

He is the same D.O. who has trained a PT to adjust.

DeSiena, D.C.

On Fri, 6 Oct 2000 17:17:54 -0700 " L. Kinne" <dcfs@...> writes:> Anybody heard of this. Apparently a MD in town is now offering it > one of my> patients brought it in asking if I had heard of it. I have never > heard of> the pitcher plant. It is an injection of lidocaine, dextrose and > sarapin a> extract from the pitcher plant. Takes a injection every 4-6 week > for> several tx. so says the brochure. Claims to help with arthritis, > h/a's,> DDD, Tendonitis, sports injuries, tennis elbow, low back pain, RSD > pain,> Plantar Fascitis, Frozen shoulder Rotator Cuff injuries, CTS, back > pain,> migraines, herniated disc's, torn cartiliage, fibromyalgia, > whiplash, TMJ,> Sciatica and knee injuries.> > > Thanks> > Steve Kinne> > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor > -------------------------~-~>> GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates > as low as 0.0% Intro or 9.99% Ongoing APR and no annual fee!> Apply NOW!> 1/9331/3/_/141981/_/970877894/> -------------------------------------------------------------------->> > > >

[Guest guest]

Prolotherapy is not pitcher plant injections. The combo this doc is using

is a combination of some prolo ingredients, specifically the dextrose, they

also use heavier duty solutions with glucose and other irritating

ingredients, such as phenol.

Sarapin, is pitcher plant extract, it is usually used with lidocaine, if I

am correct.

So I don't know about the combo.

prolotherapy?

Anybody heard of this. Apparently a MD in town is now offering it one of my

patients brought it in asking if I had heard of it. I have never heard of

the pitcher plant. It is an injection of lidocaine, dextrose and sarapin a

extract from the pitcher plant. Takes a injection every 4-6 week for

several tx. so says the brochure. Claims to help with arthritis, h/a's,

DDD, Tendonitis, sports injuries, tennis elbow, low back pain, RSD pain,

Plantar Fascitis, Frozen shoulder Rotator Cuff injuries, CTS, back pain,

migraines, herniated disc's, torn cartiliage, fibromyalgia, whiplash, TMJ,

Sciatica and knee injuries.

Thanks

Steve Kinne

[Guest guest]

I would recommend that you contact Gracer, MD. I used to practice with him. The guy is brilliant. He has used, taught and wrote about prolo. He is also serving as ChiroView Presents director of general medical. His email is richard@...

Hope that sheds some light....

Cheers...

Sig

ChiroView Presents...Broadcasting weekly to more than 10,800 chiropractorshttp://www.ChiroViewPresents.com

Re: prolotherapy?

A Eugene D.O. uses the prolotherapy technique. He claims it offers a permanent repair to the injured ligament. He also says it works best in cases when there has been a distinct traumatic incident.

He is the same D.O. who has trained a PT to adjust.

DeSiena, D.C.

On Fri, 6 Oct 2000 17:17:54 -0700 " L. Kinne" <dcfs@...> writes:> Anybody heard of this. Apparently a MD in town is now offering it > one of my> patients brought it in asking if I had heard of it. I have never > heard of> the pitcher plant. It is an injection of lidocaine, dextrose and > sarapin a> extract from the pitcher plant. Takes a injection every 4-6 week > for> several tx. so says the brochure. Claims to help with arthritis, > h/a's,> DDD, Tendonitis, sports injuries, tennis elbow, low back pain, RSD > pain,> Plantar Fascitis, Frozen shoulder Rotator Cuff injuries, CTS, back > pain,> migraines, herniated disc's, torn cartiliage, fibromyalgia, > whiplash, TMJ,> Sciatica and knee injuries.> > > Thanks> > Steve Kinne> > > -------------------------- eGroups Sponsor > -------------------------~-~>> GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates > as low as 0.0% Intro or 9.99% Ongoing APR and no annual fee!> Apply NOW!> 1/9331/3/_/141981/_/970877894/> -------------------------------------------------------------------->> > > >

[Guest guest]

Lindsey,

thanks for these thoughts

I don't know if it is a substitute for prolo, buts its great to have

something topical that might really work.

Thanks,

PS- with prolo you do initially get pain and swelling in the area, which

settles down over a few days. Do you get a warmth or inflammation or

temporary increased pain with this combined product.

thanks

Marc Heller

Re: prolotherapy?

I have seen about a dozen patients who have been treated with prolotherapy

here locally. Mixed bag of results. About half had good results - but not

all

of them permanent. The other half had no results whatsoever. many substances

can and are used in prolotherapy : calcium glucarate solutions, human growth

hormone, saline solution, etc etc etc. The idea is that the injections

caused

vaso proliferation in the area to accelerate healing. One DC in Tucson Ok

does prolotherapy (especially with the knees) using the product called

Traumeel. I have done something similar using what was formerly a Dr.

Donsbachs product (now sold by Rockland company) called SuperOxy Pain gel (a

DMSO product), and then a topical coating of a chinese herbal liniment

called

Zheng Gui Shui. Patients get pretty dramatic pain relief. DMSO was first

investigated decades ago for use as a non-needle injection. It increases the

permeability of the skin for about 1/2 hour to allow the passage of other

larger molecules. It was investigated ( and worked) to mix DMSO and insulin

for diabetics so they could avoid needle sticks. Most DMSO products can

really irritate the skin - but I have never had anyone complain of skin

irritation with the Super Oxy product (I have used it for about 8 years). I

use a cotton tipped (DMSO is a solvent, but does not dissolve cotton. If the

" cotton " balls are made from polyester the DMSO will dissolve some of it and

carry polyester particles into the body). swab to apply the Pain gell and

the

Zheng Gui Shui. Pain gel (and DMSO by itself) can greatly reduce

musculotendino pain. THe Zheng Gui Shui is a herbal pain product that also

greatly increases circulation (the goal of prolotherapy). So years ago I

began combining them. I cannot think of any patient I have had a bad adverse

reaction on, and many patients ask for the treatment. A body of pain gell

costs about $3 and a bottle of Zheng Gui Shui costs about $5. both will last

about 4 months with daily use on perhaps 10 patients a day. So it is

inexpensive.

Anglen

[Guest guest]

Marc,

There is no increased inflammation or pain with the product, though it

does cause a very noticeable cool feeling. The pain releif is almost

immediate and lasts anywhere from 4 -24 hours.

[Guest guest]

Who is it here who's so sold on prolo? I'd like to ask you some questions about

it.

Thanks.

Ann

[Guest guest]

Hi Ann. I've had prolotherapy done. feel free to ask

me any questions.

i've been meaning to write about my experience for a

while, so here it is. I believe it helped me a lot.

I had to try a number of doctors before I found one

who gave me enough pain relief to make me believe that

it does work.

I tried one doctor in NYC who was a great doctor but a

terrible prolotherapist. I then went to another

doctor who was a good prolotherapist and i improved a

lot. But as I started becoming more active, I

suddenly got a whole lot worse to the point where I

was in severe pain, couldn't do any physical therapy

and had an extremely weak left leg which exacerbated

the pain. At this point, I was 6 months into the

treatment and had had a total of five injections.

I was pretty desperate since I wanted to leave and

travel for a few months in Asia but couldn't, so i

finally made a trip to Chicago to see Dr. Ross Hauser,

who has written a bunch of books on prolotherapy.

Anyway, after about 3 treatments there, i got

significantly better. He added glucosamine and I

think a bit of HGH in the injections and he injected

the knee in about 10-20 different places, but it

worked beautifully. I went to him six times. It

created a bit of a dent financially but it was worth

it.

So here's my situation now: My knee is not perfect, I

doubt it ever will be. But it doesn't come in the way

of me doing many of the things that I love. I noticed

that when i quit my job and traveled, my knee actually

felt better from not sitting down for long periods at

a stretch. I can cycle but have not reached a point

where i can do crazy things like I used to (i've only

recently been cyling again). I can hike, I did some

fairly steep hikes. I may feel some soreness but

nothing so intense that it prevents me from hiking or

doing things I want to do. I haven't tried running,

but i know my knee won't handle it, unless I condition

it, but i don't particularly love running anyway. I

can run up and down stairs just fine. I've been able

to walk for miles, volunteer at an animal shelter

where I had to haul stuff around, can squat down

almost completely to get things done etc.

There are some bad days, but it's not debilitating and

it passes. Others may have more complete success than

me, it varies from person to person. I have

hypermobile joints, and prolotherapy is more difficult

with hypermobility.

Along with prolotherapy, i have had to regularly

maintain my flexibility, and use a foam roller or a

tennis ball (almost everytime i exercise).

Strengthening the leg is also super-important. If it

gets too weak, prolotherapy isnt' going to be as

helpful. i was told to condition my leg by using the

bosu. it is a semi-dome that one balances on and does

various exercises. it is pretty amazing. Many gyms

have a couple lying around.

So, in retrospect, I am very happy i decided to

undergo those painful jabs. I strongly believe i

would not have been able to travel around had i not

had the treatments.

I do think that it is worth going to a prolotherapist

if one can. But it is extremely important to go to a

good one. It is definitely not some sort of

miraculous cure, but it can help a lot of people and

for those who've tried all sorts of things

unsuccessfully (and i had), that's all the more reason

to try this out.

--- Ann <ruby2zdy@...> wrote:

> Who is it here who's so sold on prolo? I'd like to

> ask you some questions about it.

>

> Thanks.

>

> Ann

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Nina: Great post. Thanks for the info.

Ann: I think you were referring to me... Ask away!

- Doug

>

> > Who is it here who's so sold on prolo? I'd like to

> > ask you some questions about it.

> >

> > Thanks.

> >

> > Ann

[Guest guest]

Thanks very much for your detailed reply. It's very helpful.

Ann

Re: Prolotherapy?

Hi Ann. I've had prolotherapy done. feel free to ask

me any questions.

i've been meaning to write about my experience for a

while, so here it is. I believe it helped me a lot.

I had to try a number of doctors before I found one

who gave me enough pain relief to make me believe that

it does work.

I tried one doctor in NYC who was a great doctor but a

terrible prolotherapist. I then went to another

doctor who was a good prolotherapist and i improved a

lot. But as I started becoming more active, I

suddenly got a whole lot worse to the point where I

was in severe pain, couldn't do any physical therapy

and had an extremely weak left leg which exacerbated

the pain. At this point, I was 6 months into the

treatment and had had a total of five injections.

I was pretty desperate since I wanted to leave and

travel for a few months in Asia but couldn't, so i

finally made a trip to Chicago to see Dr. Ross Hauser,

who has written a bunch of books on prolotherapy.

Anyway, after about 3 treatments there, i got

significantly better. He added glucosamine and I

think a bit of HGH in the injections and he injected

the knee in about 10-20 different places, but it

worked beautifully. I went to him six times. It

created a bit of a dent financially but it was worth

it.

So here's my situation now: My knee is not perfect, I

doubt it ever will be. But it doesn't come in the way

of me doing many of the things that I love. I noticed

that when i quit my job and traveled, my knee actually

felt better from not sitting down for long periods at

a stretch. I can cycle but have not reached a point

where i can do crazy things like I used to (i've only

recently been cyling again). I can hike, I did some

fairly steep hikes. I may feel some soreness but

nothing so intense that it prevents me from hiking or

doing things I want to do. I haven't tried running,

but i know my knee won't handle it, unless I condition

it, but i don't particularly love running anyway. I

can run up and down stairs just fine. I've been able

to walk for miles, volunteer at an animal shelter

where I had to haul stuff around, can squat down

almost completely to get things done etc.

There are some bad days, but it's not debilitating and

it passes. Others may have more complete success than

me, it varies from person to person. I have

hypermobile joints, and prolotherapy is more difficult

with hypermobility.

Along with prolotherapy, i have had to regularly

maintain my flexibility, and use a foam roller or a

tennis ball (almost everytime i exercise).

Strengthening the leg is also super-important. If it

gets too weak, prolotherapy isnt' going to be as

helpful. i was told to condition my leg by using the

bosu. it is a semi-dome that one balances on and does

various exercises. it is pretty amazing. Many gyms

have a couple lying around.

So, in retrospect, I am very happy i decided to

undergo those painful jabs. I strongly believe i

would not have been able to travel around had i not

had the treatments.

I do think that it is worth going to a prolotherapist

if one can. But it is extremely important to go to a

good one. It is definitely not some sort of

miraculous cure, but it can help a lot of people and

for those who've tried all sorts of things

unsuccessfully (and i had), that's all the more reason

to try this out.

--- Ann <ruby2zdy@...> wrote:

> Who is it here who's so sold on prolo? I'd like to

> ask you some questions about it.

>

> Thanks.

>

> Ann

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Ann:

What you describe definitely sounds like a prolotherapy kinda thing.

If you have any connective structures that you feel are weak,

prolotherapy can help make them stronger, and ultimately help the

kneecap track properly.

In my case, my entire left knee was lax. Although my kneecap was in

the right spot, there was some lateral flexion in the knee. That is,

if you held my knee still, you could push my foot to the left or to the

right and there was some " give " .

The doc injected pretty much all the supporting structures of the knee:

- Medial & Lateral Collateral Ligaments

- Lateral Coronary Ligament

- Pes Anserinus

- Patellar Tendon

and I'm sure a bunch of other spots that I don't remember (it was a few

years ago).

I ended up returning for about six treatments. My knee " tightened up "

nicely. It feels more stable, it doesn't give as much side-to-side,

and it doesn't " pop " any more if I twist it like it used to. And, most

importantly, it hasn't given me any pain since -- and I've been using

the heck out of it.

Feel free to keep asking questions here, or E-mail if you'd rather.

Hope that helps,

Doug

dougfromct2002@...

>

> What did you have done? And it worked?

>

> I was thinking maybe if I had the medial tissues shrunk or made

stronger, it would keep my kneecap from being pulled laterally. Does

this sound like a prolotherapy kinda thing?

>

> Thanks.

>

> Ann

[Guest guest]

Thanks. I'm going to print this out.

Ann

Re: Prolotherapy?

Ann:

What you describe definitely sounds like a prolotherapy kinda thing.

If you have any connective structures that you feel are weak,

prolotherapy can help make them stronger, and ultimately help the

kneecap track properly.

In my case, my entire left knee was lax. Although my kneecap was in

the right spot, there was some lateral flexion in the knee. That is,

if you held my knee still, you could push my foot to the left or to the

right and there was some " give " .

The doc injected pretty much all the supporting structures of the knee:

- Medial & Lateral Collateral Ligaments

- Lateral Coronary Ligament

- Pes Anserinus

- Patellar Tendon

and I'm sure a bunch of other spots that I don't remember (it was a few

years ago).

I ended up returning for about six treatments. My knee " tightened up "

nicely. It feels more stable, it doesn't give as much side-to-side,

and it doesn't " pop " any more if I twist it like it used to. And, most

importantly, it hasn't given me any pain since -- and I've been using

the heck out of it.

Feel free to keep asking questions here, or E-mail if you'd rather.

Hope that helps,

Doug

dougfromct2002@...

>

> What did you have done? And it worked?

>

> I was thinking maybe if I had the medial tissues shrunk or made

stronger, it would keep my kneecap from being pulled laterally. Does

this sound like a prolotherapy kinda thing?

>

> Thanks.

>

> Ann