Question for Ann on the stick; plus what I'm learning about the SI Joint

[Guest guest]

>Ann,

>I think you covered some of this before but I forget exactly what you

>said. How do you like the " travel stick " compared to the " body

>stick? "

The travel Stick is the right size for leg work. I got the Flex Stick for my

back & shoulders, but could never get it anchored securely enough to get a good

dig into my muscles & sent it back (no restocking fee from www.thestick.com,

BTW). I can also use the travel Stick on my neck, and it really helps there,

and also on my shoulders if the knot is in the right place. I just can't get to

my back with it (but there I use a tennis ball, so not really a loss there). i

get really good leverage on my legs w/the Travel Stick -- can dig in really hard

if I want to, both front & back. Also I'd say the body stick is too long for

you to get good leverage on your legs. And the one I got, the Flex Stick,

didn't dig in as hard as the Travel -- don't know whether that was becuase it

was " more flexible " (I didn't really see that it bent more) or bec. your hands

are farther apart.

One thing I'd change in the Stick design is the beveling on the rollers. The

bevel starts abruptly, so the edge is " sharp " (relative to if it started with a

curve). I filed mine down with a diamond fingernail file, but now where I filed

they collect dirt & look horrible. The bevel edges don't bother me on my legs,

but on my neck they kind of dig in.

>I have been using the foam roller for my legs, glutes and lower

>back. But I want to get the " travel stick " so that I can have it in

>the car and use it where-ever before and after exercising.

The Stick is not as hard on the shoulders, too.

>I am wondering if I should also get the " body stick. " Does this work

>well for your glutes and back?

See above for the back, and I'd say it's no good for glutes. I'd go with a

tennis ball for that. You have to anchor it somewhere. For some applications,

you can anchor it in the crook of your elbow. But there are places on your back

you can't reach if it's anchored in your elbow. You could make an anchor by

drilling a hole in a piece of thick wood, maybe an inch in, to put the handle

in, but (a) you'd also have to rasp the edges of the hole down so they don't dig

into the handle of the Stick, and that might make it a less reliable anchor, and

( the handle isn't radially symmetrical, and is soft, so you might ruin it

that way. They should make an anchor for it but they don't (except for the

Computer Athlete Stick, but they told me that it's not very effective & they're

doing to stop selling it -- the anchor, not the Stick). If someone else is

using it on you, they might as well use the Travel Stick. I massaged someone

the other day with the Travel, on his back, and it worked really well, but he

had well developed muscles. I also tried it on someone else who didn't have

good muscles, and it didn't work as well.

>I know that due to shoulder issues

>the foam roller hasn't been easy for you to use, but from the little

>you used it, which do you expect would work better if you were able

>to use the foam roller regularly?

I would say that for the sides of the thigh, and maybe the vastus lateralis,

which is all I tried it on, the foam roller would work better because you're

using your body weight, so it can dig in farther. I suspect the Travel Stick

works better on the hams & the posterior side of the thigh and on the lower leg

muscles.

>FYI: as I've said, I've been diagnosed with having " sacroiliac

>disfunction " on my left side. So I've been trying to turn myself

>into a " sacroiliac expert. " :-) Kind of interesting, because I'm

>getting the impression that a LOT of people have sacroiliac problems

>that are going undiagnosed and causing problems in other parts of the

>body, not to mention hip disease, disc degeneration, etc.

>The sacroiliac joints are in the pelvis, separating the rest of the

>pelvis from the spinal column. See the first picture here:

>http://mywebpages.comcast.net/wnor/xrayslowerlimb.htm . They have

>very little range of motion but this range of motion is significant

>in allowing the pelvis to wobble back and forth as we walk, run, etc.

I have some " bone cracking " in one of those joints on the left side. This

started about 2 yrs ago and I've wondered what's going on. I also have very

tight muscles down there, esp. in the morning, but it's bilateral.

>What happens is that my left sacroiliac joint gets " stuck " in the

>forward position with the front side of my left side of my pelvis

>rotated forward. As you can imagine this causes this has cascading

>negative effects that follow the kinetic chaign (both above and below

>the pelvis).

Sounds grim.

>One of the biggest effects is to make my left

>leg " functionally longer " causing increased pronation on that side

>(with all the negatives that entails).

Very interesting.

>I expect that the sacroiliac joint is not the problem but that tight

>and/or imbalanced muscles are pulling the left side of my pelvis

>forward, so I am now searching for trigger points in the torso area.

>Hence my renewed interest in the body stick.

Sounds like a good theory. If muscles are pulling your pelvis forward, though,

wouldn't those be in the front? You have a lot of muscles that run through your

pelvic area, like from the backside of the pelvis to the legs. I don't know how

you could get at the parts inside your pelvis. Of course, you can reach the

" far ends " that attach to your femur but I think the Travel Stick would be good

for that. And here's an exercise (you may do this already) for stretching some

of them. Stand with one foot in front and a little to the side of the other.

Get into a lunge position so the back leg is stretched out behind and the front

one is bent. The back foot will point outwards somewhat. Tilt your pelvis so

that the top of it goes back & the bottom comes forward. Hold. Feeeeeeeel the

stretch! I had pain in the tendons that go into the groin area & did this

exercise & now I'm OK.

>BTW, the sacroiliac joint (SI joint) was considered important by

>doctors in the early part of the 20th Century but then fell out of

>favor. It still doesn't get much attention from because many doctors

>are still under the impression that it doesn't really function as a

>joint at all and that it's joint attributes are only vestigial with a

>fallback position that even if it still is a joint, it's range of

>motion is too insignificant too matter, but a growing number of

>doctors are reconsidering. Chiropractors and PTs are more likely to

>consider the joint important.

I'm glad to see that someone's waking up! Mine has always felt kind of mobile.

>I've heard repeated accounts of people having a leg length

>discrepancy fixed by a Chiropractor (or PT) in a few minutes wit

>a " hip adjustment " and never understood what they were talking

>about. The hip is a pretty straightforward " ball and socket " joint

>and it's pretty difficult for me to imagine any way of " adjusting "

>it (assuming it's not dislocated but then you've coming in on a

>stretcher!). Seems that what's really going on is that the sacroiliac

>joint is being adjusted. And you don't necessarily need a

>Chiropracter or PT for this--there are methods that you can use to do

>this yourself in a few seconds, anywhere, anytime.

And they are ... ? Cliffhanger!!

Thanks!

Ann

[Guest guest]

Chris:

This makes so much sense & could explain my lower back problems & seems to me it

could throw off the balance of what your muscles are required to do enough to

cause all kinds of problems, internal and external!! Would this show up on

X-ray? Or is it too subtle?

Where is the soleus trigger point?

I'm thinking w/r/t why the SI joint would go out in the first place, some people

have looser ligaments than others. Might need to learn how to walk more

balanced to minimize ligament travel. Or not get into certain positions, esp.

sitting positions. And then there's that ever-pesky mattress problem.

Thanks for all this info!!

Ann

He lists a number of ways to correct it in the Manual Rounds, and

based on his theory that it only disfunctions in one position you

always just try to correct for it being stuck in a forward position--

you do this with both legs alternating back and forth several times

(in the FAQ he analogizes this as alternating sides in pulling out a

stuck dresser drawer) and if one are both aren't in disfunction it

doesn't matter. I've been using his strap method shown in one of the

pics at http://www.kalindra.com/rounds.pdf -- easy, painless, and

takes only a minute!

BTW, DonTigny is also pro-polo! But only for the tightening of

specific ligaments and only with the dysfunction corrected.

Even though I " cured " my knees ages ago, I knew that there was still

something wrong because I was getting a re-occuring trigger point in

my left soleus. I'm kicking myself from not further exploring the

possibility that it was the SI joint earlier. In many of the trigger

point resources they mention an SI joint/soleus link BUT they

describe this link as a SOLEUS trigger point referring pain to the SI

joint!!!

The implications of this was that treating the soleus trigger point

would make the SI joint pain go away. And so I disregarded this link

as irrelevant because (1) I didn't have any SI joint pain that I was

aware off and (2) I was already treating the soleus trigger point

(but it just kept coming back).

Well, the link was there alright, but at least in my case the

causitive chaing was reversed. A relatively " latent " (to use a

trigger point term :-) SI joint dysfunction was causing the soleus

trigger point to pop up. As soon as I started correcting it the

soleus trigger point disappeared.

Now I'm hoping that I can identify and address the factors that are

causing the joint to " go out " in the first place. Were you able to

determine why your pelvis was being twisted?

>

> > What happens is that my left sacroiliac joint gets " stuck " in the

> > forward position with the front side of my left side of my pelvis

> > rotated forward. As you can imagine this causes this has

cascading

> > negative effects that follow the kinetic chaign (both above and

> below

> > the pelvis). One of the biggest effects is to make my left

> > leg " functionally longer " causing increased pronation on that

side

> > (with all the negatives that entails).

>

> *** Snip

>

> > I've heard repeated accounts of people having a leg length

> > discrepancy fixed by a Chiropractor (or PT) in a few minutes wit

> > a " hip adjustment " and never understood what they were talking

> > about. The hip is a pretty straightforward " ball and socket "

joint

> > and it's pretty difficult for me to imagine any way

of " adjusting "

> > it (assuming it's not dislocated but then you've coming in on a

> > stretcher!). Seems that what's really going on is that the

> sacroiliac

> > joint is being adjusted. And you don't necessarily need a

> > Chiropracter or PT for this--there are methods that you can use

to

> do

> > this yourself in a few seconds, anywhere, anytime.

[Guest guest]

Ann,

I think you covered some of this before but I forget exactly what you

said. How do you like the " travel stick " compared to the " body

stick? "

I have been using the foam roller for my legs, glutes and lower

back. But I want to get the " travel stick " so that I can have it in

the car and use it where-ever before and after exercising.

I am wondering if I should also get the " body stick. " Does this work

well for your glutes and back? I know that due to shoulder issues

the foam roller hasn't been easy for you to use, but from the little

you used it, which do you expect would work better if you were able

to use the foam roller regularly?

FYI: as I've said, I've been diagnosed with having " sacroiliac

disfunction " on my left side. So I've been trying to turn myself

into a " sacroiliac expert. " :-) Kind of interesting, because I'm

getting the impression that a LOT of people have sacroiliac problems

that are going undiagnosed and causing problems in other parts of the

body, not to mention hip disease, disc degeneration, etc.

The sacroiliac joints are in the pelvis, separating the rest of the

pelvis from the spinal column. See the first picture here:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/wnor/xrayslowerlimb.htm . They have

very little range of motion but this range of motion is significant

in allowing the pelvis to wobble back and forth as we walk, run, etc.

What happens is that my left sacroiliac joint gets " stuck " in the

forward position with the front side of my left side of my pelvis

rotated forward. As you can imagine this causes this has cascading

negative effects that follow the kinetic chaign (both above and below

the pelvis). One of the biggest effects is to make my left

leg " functionally longer " causing increased pronation on that side

(with all the negatives that entails).

I expect that the sacroiliac joint is not the problem but that tight

and/or imbalanced muscles are pulling the left side of my pelvis

forward, so I am now searching for trigger points in the torso area.

Hence my renewed interest in the body stick.

BTW, the sacroiliac joint (SI joint) was considered important by

doctors in the early part of the 20th Century but then fell out of

favor. It still doesn't get much attention from because many doctors

are still under the impression that it doesn't really function as a

joint at all and that it's joint attributes are only vestigial with a

fallback position that even if it still is a joint, it's range of

motion is too insignificant too matter, but a growing number of

doctors are reconsidering. Chiropractors and PTs are more likely to

consider the joint important.

I've heard repeated accounts of people having a leg length

discrepancy fixed by a Chiropractor (or PT) in a few minutes wit

a " hip adjustment " and never understood what they were talking

about. The hip is a pretty straightforward " ball and socket " joint

and it's pretty difficult for me to imagine any way of " adjusting "

it (assuming it's not dislocated but then you've coming in on a

stretcher!). Seems that what's really going on is that the sacroiliac

joint is being adjusted. And you don't necessarily need a

Chiropracter or PT for this--there are methods that you can use to do

this yourself in a few seconds, anywhere, anytime.

[Guest guest]

Chris:

That is exactly what my situation was. In fact, I may be one of

the " repeated accounts " you refer to.

My sacrum was out of alignment -- the left side of my pelvic bones

were rotated forward and the right side backward, creating a 1/2 inch

functional leg-length discrepancy.

You should be able to get that fixed pretty easily. As you said,

there are some ways of doing it yourself, but maybe you are better

off getting it checked by a PT or chiropractor to make sure it is

aligned properly.

- Doug

P.S. - My opnion: the Travel Stick is fine for the glutes. A larger

Stick might make working your back easier, but you can use the Travel

Stick for that too.

> What happens is that my left sacroiliac joint gets " stuck " in the

> forward position with the front side of my left side of my pelvis

> rotated forward. As you can imagine this causes this has cascading

> negative effects that follow the kinetic chaign (both above and

below

> the pelvis). One of the biggest effects is to make my left

> leg " functionally longer " causing increased pronation on that side

> (with all the negatives that entails).

*** Snip

> I've heard repeated accounts of people having a leg length

> discrepancy fixed by a Chiropractor (or PT) in a few minutes wit

> a " hip adjustment " and never understood what they were talking

> about. The hip is a pretty straightforward " ball and socket " joint

> and it's pretty difficult for me to imagine any way of " adjusting "

> it (assuming it's not dislocated but then you've coming in on a

> stretcher!). Seems that what's really going on is that the

sacroiliac

> joint is being adjusted. And you don't necessarily need a

> Chiropracter or PT for this--there are methods that you can use to

do

> this yourself in a few seconds, anywhere, anytime.

[Guest guest]

Doug,

I'll confess that I started correcting it based on information I

found on the Internet a few days after I got the diagnosis and before

going in to physical therapy. But I'm in physical therapy and I have

my PT's blessing for it.

Are you familier with the " Sacroiliac Resources " page at

www.kalindra.com ? If not check it out. It is a pretty sizeable

collection of full-text articles on the SI joint and related issues.

Of particular interest are the articles by DonTigny

(especially the " Manual Rounds " http://www.kalindra.com/rounds.pdf)

and the site FAQ http://www.kalindra.com/faq.htm (which is Q & A with

Mr. DonTigny. There is also a link to a Delphi forum that is very

active and has lots of very knowledgeable people including Mr.

DonTigny himself. If you've already seen these, I'd be interested in

hearing your thoughts on his theories and whether you think it would

have applied to your case.

Bascially he takes the position that SI disfunction virtually always

consists of one or both SI joints sticking in a forward position (in

other words with t your pelvis on the effected side(s) shifted

forward on top and backward on bottom).

He lists a number of ways to correct it in the Manual Rounds, and

based on his theory that it only disfunctions in one position you

always just try to correct for it being stuck in a forward position--

you do this with both legs alternating back and forth several times

(in the FAQ he analogizes this as alternating sides in pulling out a

stuck dresser drawer) and if one are both aren't in disfunction it

doesn't matter. I've been using his strap method shown in one of the

pics at http://www.kalindra.com/rounds.pdf -- easy, painless, and

takes only a minute!

BTW, DonTigny is also pro-polo! But only for the tightening of

specific ligaments and only with the dysfunction corrected.

Even though I " cured " my knees ages ago, I knew that there was still

something wrong because I was getting a re-occuring trigger point in

my left soleus. I'm kicking myself from not further exploring the

possibility that it was the SI joint earlier. In many of the trigger

point resources they mention an SI joint/soleus link BUT they

describe this link as a SOLEUS trigger point referring pain to the SI

joint!!!

The implications of this was that treating the soleus trigger point

would make the SI joint pain go away. And so I disregarded this link

as irrelevant because (1) I didn't have any SI joint pain that I was

aware off and (2) I was already treating the soleus trigger point

(but it just kept coming back).

Well, the link was there alright, but at least in my case the

causitive chaing was reversed. A relatively " latent " (to use a

trigger point term :-) SI joint dysfunction was causing the soleus

trigger point to pop up. As soon as I started correcting it the

soleus trigger point disappeared.

Now I'm hoping that I can identify and address the factors that are

causing the joint to " go out " in the first place. Were you able to

determine why your pelvis was being twisted?

>

> > What happens is that my left sacroiliac joint gets " stuck " in the

> > forward position with the front side of my left side of my pelvis

> > rotated forward. As you can imagine this causes this has

cascading

> > negative effects that follow the kinetic chaign (both above and

> below

> > the pelvis). One of the biggest effects is to make my left

> > leg " functionally longer " causing increased pronation on that

side

> > (with all the negatives that entails).

>

> *** Snip

>

> > I've heard repeated accounts of people having a leg length

> > discrepancy fixed by a Chiropractor (or PT) in a few minutes wit

> > a " hip adjustment " and never understood what they were talking

> > about. The hip is a pretty straightforward " ball and socket "

joint

> > and it's pretty difficult for me to imagine any way

of " adjusting "

> > it (assuming it's not dislocated but then you've coming in on a

> > stretcher!). Seems that what's really going on is that the

> sacroiliac

> > joint is being adjusted. And you don't necessarily need a

> > Chiropracter or PT for this--there are methods that you can use

to

> do

> > this yourself in a few seconds, anywhere, anytime.

[Guest guest]

Ann,

Thanks for all the info on " The Stick. " Sounds like it would be

worthwhile to get the travel stick but that I should also stick to

using my foam roller, tennis balls, etc. for my torso.

>

>>>>>>>>> Sounds like a good theory. If muscles are pulling your

pelvis forward, though, wouldn't those be in the front? You have a

lot of muscles that run through your pelvic area, like from the

backside of the pelvis to the legs. I don't know how you could get

at the parts inside your pelvis. Of course, you can reach the " far

ends " that attach to your femur but I think the Travel Stick would be

good for that. And here's an exercise (you may do this already) for

stretching some of them. Stand with one foot in front and a little

to the side of the other. Get into a lunge position so the back leg

is stretched out behind and the front one is bent. The back foot

will point outwards somewhat. Tilt your pelvis so that the top of it

goes back & the bottom comes forward. Hold. Feeeeeeeel the

stretch! I had pain in the tendons that go into the groin area & did

this exercise & now I'm OK.

Yeah, trigger points in the psoas would definitely pull the pelvis

forward. The Sacroiliac Resources page has a few pages scanned in

from the Travell and Simons book and they say to look for and release

quadratus lumborum trigger points before correcting the SI joint, as

these could be pulling the SI joint out of position. This is also

covered in Clair Davies' Trigger Point Therapy Workbook (which I'd

long ago decided is worth its weight in gold. :-)

BUT in his FAQ at http://www.kalindra.com/faq.htm DonTigny

warns against stretching the psoas saying this only would increase

the dysfunction. Following his advice I finally got rid of the %$$##

soleus trigger point that's been plaguing me and so I'm gonna blindly

follow him on this point until I have more confidence in my

understanding of the SI joint and the pelvis.

>

> >stretcher!). Seems that what's really going on is that the

sacroiliac

> >joint is being adjusted. And you don't necessarily need a

> >Chiropracter or PT for this--there are methods that you can use to

do

> >this yourself in a few seconds, anywhere, anytime.

>

> And they are ... ? Cliffhanger!!

See http://www.kalindra.com/rounds.pdf and

http://www.kalindra.com/faq.htm (and for something more technical,

also http://www.kalindra.com/critical.pdf

Definitely something anyone with lower back pain or hip pain should

look into! (Seems that SI joint problems are more linked to back and

hip pain then knee issues... )

BTW, I posted a message on a PT forum, rehabedge.com , describing

DonTigny's theories and asking if there was any consensus on them.

Not too many people responded but one of the answers was someone who

said he just got back from a back pain seminar and that " the

consensus is that there is no consensus " so who knows?

[Guest guest]

> >

> > > What happens is that my left sacroiliac joint gets " stuck " in

the

> > > forward position with the front side of my left side of my

pelvis

> > > rotated forward. As you can imagine this causes this has

> cascading

> > > negative effects that follow the kinetic chaign (both above and

> > below

> > > the pelvis). One of the biggest effects is to make my left

> > > leg " functionally longer " causing increased pronation on that

> side

> > > (with all the negatives that entails).

> >

> > *** Snip

> >

> > > I've heard repeated accounts of people having a leg length

> > > discrepancy fixed by a Chiropractor (or PT) in a few minutes

wit

> > > a " hip adjustment " and never understood what they were talking

> > > about. The hip is a pretty straightforward " ball and socket "

> joint

> > > and it's pretty difficult for me to imagine any way

> of " adjusting "

> > > it (assuming it's not dislocated but then you've coming in on a

> > > stretcher!). Seems that what's really going on is that the

> > sacroiliac

> > > joint is being adjusted. And you don't necessarily need a

> > > Chiropracter or PT for this--there are methods that you can use

> to

> > do

> > > this yourself in a few seconds, anywhere, anytime.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>