new to the community

August 20, 2006

Tory,

Wow, 16 with knee trouble. First of all, sorry to hear that you are having

problems. I really can't imagine this at 16.

The only solution I can come up with is strengthening. It just depends on

the damage and details of the condition. Myself, I have torn up cartilage

and no amount of exercise will make it go away.

That being said, strengthening does reduce the pain level in most cases.

For myself, I had to exercise to the point of " some " pain. If I went past

that point, I would pay for it in the next few weeks. But, I am 49 not 16.

I have never done any rowing, but I imagine that you push very hard with

your legs through the entire range of motion. This cannot be very good for

your knees if there is damage already there.

Did they do an MRI? Did they mention cartilage damage? Hopefully, someone

here can point out some taping techniques or other braces you can try.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Don

On 8/19/06, Tory <crossed_arms77@...> wrote:

>

> As most new members seem to do I was diagnosed with Chondromalacia

> and am looking for information as the pain has become worse.

>

> I am a 16y.o. and was first diagnosed with this condition in my

> right knee 2 years ago. They gave me an H buttress brace to wear

> while I was playing soccer my freshman year which I did do but

> beyond that they said that I should " grow out of it. " I didn't

> really give it a second thought. I wore the brace, dealt with the

> occassional knee pain and everything panned out ok.

>

> My sophomore year I got into rowing crew in place of soccer. My

> knees got irratated sometimes while I was ergging but I worked

> through it and just kept going. There were a few instances where it

> was bad but for the most part yet again, not a large problem.

>

> Going into the spring crew season everything went the same. We row

> both fall and spring and I really had no problems this past spring

> whilst I rowed.

>

> This summer everything seemed to spiral downward. I got a desk job

> over the summer and that's where the problems really seemed to first

> manifest themselves. My knees got this tingling feeling under the

> kneecap whenever I sat for more than an hour or so. I like to get

> up and walk around when ever I can to stretch my legs out some.

>

> My left knee also got progressively worse. I origionally had

> problems with the right one and the condition seemed to have spread

> to my left knee. I went in to see the Ortho again in late june and

> they took X-rays and all that. They said that I had developed a

> slight patellar tilt on the left knee. My old knee brace wore out

> awhile ago and I never really used it while rowing because I have

> sensative skin and the neoprine mixed with sweat really irratates my

> skin.

>

> This time seems to have gone the same time as last. They pretty

> much said that I had chrondomalacia in both knees, gave me 2 J

> braces this time, a list of exersizes and sent me on my way.

>

> Fall crew conditioning started a few weeks ago and my knees have

> been so sore. They've been getting sore randomly even on a normal

> day with no exersize. It can be anything from sitting for a long

> time to bending my knee to far for too long (I like to sit in my

> comp chair with my left knee bent up on the side of the chair).

>

> I started sitting with my knees out straight instead of bent and

> sleeping on my back to keep them straight. The pain seems to get

> highlighted quite a bit when I try to go to sleep no matter how I

> lay.

>

> As for crew itself ergging (rowing on the machines) has killed my

> knees. A week or so ago I got off after an especially intense

> rowing piece and my knees wouldnt straighten. I took 3 steps, sat

> down right there, and after a few minutes got back up and rowed the

> next piece at a slightly slower pace. Running on pavement, lunges,

> and wall sits are absolutely killing my knees. I started icing my

> knees almost every day after crew but that didnt really seem to do

> much, nor did heat application. I've been conditioning in my knee

> braces and they definately help but there is still pain. I am an

> avid horseback rider as well. I dont know how much stress that puts

> on the knee but that started hurting me this past week or so too.

> Crew is probably the worse considering its alot of pressure pushing

> off for the legs and involves very deep knee bends continuously.

>

> I've been conditioning along with the rest of my team every day. We

> finally moved out onto the water and I cannot wear my knee braces

> there. The pressure is less than the erg and generally they dont

> hurt so much while in the boat but are still sore afterwards. My

> braces have those metal springs or plastic strips sewed down both

> sides of the brace and when we are not rowing we sit with our knees

> bent and the oar sitting on top of our thighs. Those strips bow

> inwards against my leg when I'm sitting there and they actually

> bruised my legs after just one day on the water. I've only been out

> on the water once this season so far and that was with my braces

> on. It was then that I decided that I couldnt wear them while

> rowing. I dont know if the absense of the jarring motions of

> running on pavement and the other conditioning we did will improve

> anything or crewing will still make it worse even on the water.

>

> I don't know what to do at this point. I came home crying the other

> night and my mom, being a doctor, was able to sneak me in to see the

> PT at her office for a quick visit. He stretched my legs in a few

> different ways, poked around on my knees, and then told me that my

> IT bands are extremely tight. He stretched them out and then told

> me to scrap the strengthening exersizes from my ortho and focus on

> the 2 he gave me. He's been having me do 2 exersizes, 5 sets of each

> on each leg in the morning, before I exersize, and then before I go

> to bed. He's having me go back in next wednesday once again.

>

> My ortho didnt really tell me anything. The PT finally told me how

> to start fixing this problem but I am concerned about rowing this

> season. I know that I can do it and work through the pain because I

> love the sport whole heartedly. But I dont know if I should.

> Everyone here seems adamently against working through the pain, but

> neither my ortho or my PT advised me against crew. Any advice at

> this point is appreciated. I've done all the research I have been

> able to and I'm stuck. So many people here wish they would have

> caught it sooner. Should I be making a bigger deal out of this than

> I am? And should I be doing anything differently?

>

> I really appreciate any help that you guys could offer and thank you

> for taking the time to assist me.

>

August 20, 2006

Hello Tory,

I read your post a couple of hours ago and had to sit

and think about it for awhile. My compliments to you

for writing a very well thought out post.

Not sure how your ortho diagnosed chondromalacia...was

it through x rays, mri, scope? And what " grade " of

chondro are you looking at? Is it grade 1 with some

wear, or grade 4 with the cartilage basically gone ?

That would be my first step, to find out just exactly

how affected your knees are. Depending on how involved

they are you have options.

I'm just making some totally uneducated opinions here,

but maybe it'll give you some things to think about...

Start off with a little detective work. How were your

knees in soccer, when did they hurt the most, what

kind of overall conditioning were you doing? What

other activities did you participate in? Did you

remember any knee pain from anything else??

Next, think about rowing. When you row recreationally

(not for winning speed) do your knees hurt? Do they

hurt excessively when you do other things? How soon

do your knees feel better? Immediately if you stop

the exercise? A couple of hours later? A day or two

later? A week or more?? I ask this because often you

overdo ONE thing and you end up with a cycle of

inflammation in your knees, and unless you rest and

treat the inflammation, it'll just " stay " with you

during all your activities.

Once you have a clear picture of when they hurt the

worst....start looking (maybe with the help of a

REALLY good sports physiotherapist) at what muscle

groups you use for that activity that makes it

hurt....is it possible you've created a muscle

imbalance with rowing? Could your quads be overloading

the hamstrings? Are your hip muscles strong? Any and

all muscle imbalances can show up as more/worse knee

pain. A good therapist should be able (and willing)

to watch you row and see if your alignment is good for

your knees. Don't underestimate those hip muscles,

because they exert quite a pull on the lateral side of

your knee.

You're very smart to start thinking ahead for your

knees. I don't think knee problems are black and

white....rather a continual gray area that you

constantly should monitor and adjust things as

necessary. Some of the things you can

control......weight, is one....never easy, but not

being overweight will help your joints. (This, BTW,

was my big downfall....I've always been very active,

but I'm also what they used to call a " big girl " .

Sure, I had the muscles, but the extra weight didn't

help my knees. Ironically, people who are more

overweight than I, who did/do not do sports/activities

have better knees than I do....sigh......) Another are

you can control and that's staying well hydrated at

all times...Nope, it won't cure anything, but it's

easier on the joints if you have plenty of water

intake. Another is a good program of stretching and

staying limber and agile. It's something I wish I had

invested more time in when I was younger. If you have

created a great habit of staying limber (whether

through stretching or something like yoga) it will

serve you well as you age, since we all lose some

natural flexibility as we age. I've started a modified

yoga plan for me and again, it's not a cure, but it

seems to make my whole body feel better. Another area

to think about is your posture, gait and feet. If

you're slightly flatfooted, some arches might give

your knee a better alignment, and might help,

sometimes heel supports help.

If you have knee pain, you also need to find your own

treatment for it. By that I mean, either taking some

anti-inflammatories when needed, taking glucosamine,

eating well, drinking tons of water, icing at the

right times, and yes, resting and laying low when the

pain threatens to turn into an inflamed joint. (You

can bet your knee is inflamed if it swells, or if it's

warm to the touch).

Lastly, the question of what you should do....no one

can really answer that, however, I can give you my

take on it. With the help of your ortho (and you need

to ask them point blank) and a good PT, you can work

out a plan that will allow you to do whatever activity

you want and only amend them if a certain set of

criteria are met (excessive pain, different pain, more

intense pain, etc etc).Unfortunately, chondromalacia

doesn't magically get better. There are surgical

options, but those also don't magically make it go

away (although there are more and more surgical

advances for chondromalacia and arthritis). You need

to balance the activities you enjoy with the knowledge

that you need to protect your knees for your future.

If one activity ruins your knees for doing all the

other activities that you enjoy, you may need to

re-examine just how important that activity is to you.

You have lots of options...just being aware of your

knee pain and the severity of it will guide you to

which path you need to take. Do remember, there are

lots of people out there with chondromalacia that do

EVERYTHING under the sun....it's a nuisance to them

because sometimes they need to " baby " the knees abit,

but in general, once they get the routine down,

there's nothing stopping them.

I hope you find a good sports physiotherapist, who

will work with you in the long run. Strong, balanced

muscles, are the best protectors your knees can get.

Sorry for the long post, keep asking questions here

and everywhere. One thing you'll learn is that YOU

are your own best advocate when it comes to your

knees. Keeping good, logical track of events (which

you sound like you're doing) will go a long way to

getting any and all help you need. I fervently wish

you the best of luck, and hope you'll post to let us

know how you're doing.

take care,

nne

New to the

community

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__________________________________________________

August 20, 2006

At your age, there's some chance that the articular cartilage might heal, but I

would suggest that you think about helping it along with chondroitin and

glucosamine. That seems to have prevented arthritis in my knees, although, at

my age (59-64 for the chondromalacia), it hasn't helped heal the damaged spots.

A tight IT band could be pulling your kneecaps over, which could cause and

aggravate chondromalacia. There's a good ITBS group on . There's surgery

for that in addition to various stretching routines.

My experience is that, in general, PTs know better than OS's what exercises you

need for ITBS and chondromalacia.

Have you tried knee tape? This could help a lot, keeping the kneecap off the

femur.

I hate to say this, because you're an athlete, but you may need to cut back on

your activity to rest your knees while the glucosamine & chondroitin do their

work. It's really hard to cut back on activity when you're an athlete, but it

could save you great heartache in the future. You should only do what doesn't

make your knees hurt (don't cut out activity altogether -- that's just as bad).

People will probably suggest pool exercises, but the problem is bending the knee

so the kneecap rubs on the femur, so if you're in the pool, bending your knee,

it's still going to rub. For me, knee tape has helped the most. I posted

instructions on using kneetape here. It's in the archives. Your PT should also

know how to do it. You can buy knee tape on line and some PT offices sell it.

Also, there's hope. Probably sometime in the next 10 years the FDA will approve

the SaluCartilage plugs (see http://www.salumedica.com/technology.htm). These

are plugs that are inserted in holes the OS drills out where the chondromalacia

worn spots are. They've been in use in Europe for 4 years now and in Canada for

1. The FDA likes to wait until European patients have " tested " a device or

procedure for about 20 years before they approve them here. If they were

available in the US, it would be a Godsend for those of us in this list. I'm

old enough to have a TKR and that's what I'm going to have to do to get my knee

function back. But you're so young, you'll probably have to wait for the

SaluCartilage plugs. If you can't wait, and you have $19,000, you can have them

done in Europe or Canada (15,000 euros is what the one doctor I corresponded

with in Italy charges -- I don't know about other doctors in Europe, or what

Canadian prices might be).

Good luck. It upsets me to hear about some your age getting this condition.

Ann

New to the community

As most new members seem to do I was diagnosed with Chondromalacia

and am looking for information as the pain has become worse.

I am a 16y.o. and was first diagnosed with this condition in my

right knee 2 years ago. They gave me an H buttress brace to wear

while I was playing soccer my freshman year which I did do but

beyond that they said that I should " grow out of it. " I didn't

really give it a second thought. I wore the brace, dealt with the

occassional knee pain and everything panned out ok.

My sophomore year I got into rowing crew in place of soccer. My

knees got irratated sometimes while I was ergging but I worked

through it and just kept going. There were a few instances where it

was bad but for the most part yet again, not a large problem.

Going into the spring crew season everything went the same. We row

both fall and spring and I really had no problems this past spring

whilst I rowed.

This summer everything seemed to spiral downward. I got a desk job

over the summer and that's where the problems really seemed to first

manifest themselves. My knees got this tingling feeling under the

kneecap whenever I sat for more than an hour or so. I like to get

up and walk around when ever I can to stretch my legs out some.

My left knee also got progressively worse. I origionally had

problems with the right one and the condition seemed to have spread

to my left knee. I went in to see the Ortho again in late june and

they took X-rays and all that. They said that I had developed a

slight patellar tilt on the left knee. My old knee brace wore out

awhile ago and I never really used it while rowing because I have

sensative skin and the neoprine mixed with sweat really irratates my

skin.

This time seems to have gone the same time as last. They pretty

much said that I had chrondomalacia in both knees, gave me 2 J

braces this time, a list of exersizes and sent me on my way.

Fall crew conditioning started a few weeks ago and my knees have

been so sore. They've been getting sore randomly even on a normal

day with no exersize. It can be anything from sitting for a long

time to bending my knee to far for too long (I like to sit in my

comp chair with my left knee bent up on the side of the chair).

I started sitting with my knees out straight instead of bent and

sleeping on my back to keep them straight. The pain seems to get

highlighted quite a bit when I try to go to sleep no matter how I

lay.

As for crew itself ergging (rowing on the machines) has killed my

knees. A week or so ago I got off after an especially intense

rowing piece and my knees wouldnt straighten. I took 3 steps, sat

down right there, and after a few minutes got back up and rowed the

next piece at a slightly slower pace. Running on pavement, lunges,

and wall sits are absolutely killing my knees. I started icing my

knees almost every day after crew but that didnt really seem to do

much, nor did heat application. I've been conditioning in my knee

braces and they definately help but there is still pain. I am an

avid horseback rider as well. I dont know how much stress that puts

on the knee but that started hurting me this past week or so too.

Crew is probably the worse considering its alot of pressure pushing

off for the legs and involves very deep knee bends continuously.

I've been conditioning along with the rest of my team every day. We

finally moved out onto the water and I cannot wear my knee braces

there. The pressure is less than the erg and generally they dont

hurt so much while in the boat but are still sore afterwards. My

braces have those metal springs or plastic strips sewed down both

sides of the brace and when we are not rowing we sit with our knees

bent and the oar sitting on top of our thighs. Those strips bow

inwards against my leg when I'm sitting there and they actually

bruised my legs after just one day on the water. I've only been out

on the water once this season so far and that was with my braces

on. It was then that I decided that I couldnt wear them while

rowing. I dont know if the absense of the jarring motions of

running on pavement and the other conditioning we did will improve

anything or crewing will still make it worse even on the water.

I don't know what to do at this point. I came home crying the other

night and my mom, being a doctor, was able to sneak me in to see the

PT at her office for a quick visit. He stretched my legs in a few

different ways, poked around on my knees, and then told me that my

IT bands are extremely tight. He stretched them out and then told

me to scrap the strengthening exersizes from my ortho and focus on

the 2 he gave me. He's been having me do 2 exersizes, 5 sets of each

on each leg in the morning, before I exersize, and then before I go

to bed. He's having me go back in next wednesday once again.

My ortho didnt really tell me anything. The PT finally told me how

to start fixing this problem but I am concerned about rowing this

season. I know that I can do it and work through the pain because I

love the sport whole heartedly. But I dont know if I should.

Everyone here seems adamently against working through the pain, but

neither my ortho or my PT advised me against crew. Any advice at

this point is appreciated. I've done all the research I have been

able to and I'm stuck. So many people here wish they would have

caught it sooner. Should I be making a bigger deal out of this than

I am? And should I be doing anything differently?

I really appreciate any help that you guys could offer and thank you

for taking the time to assist me.

August 20, 2006

Great post! Very well said.

Ann

New to the

community

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Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.10.9/417 -

Release Date: 8/11/2006

__________________________________________________

August 20, 2006

My advice to you is to find a sports medicine clinic in your area and go see

them. They know what they are doing and will help you.

Luck

Tory <crossed_arms77@...> wrote: