Re: Question about type of milk

[Guest guest]

I was finally able to get some raw milk, they haven't been able to sell raw

until just recently. The cows are not pasture fed, but they are organic.

I've noticed that the kefir from the raw milk is much thicker (almost chunky

when I dump it out of the jar). Because of the cream in the milk, the kefir

is also sweeter, as is the cheese.

On Behalf Of ROGER BIRD

,

I use Kalona Supernatural. It is unhomogenized but vat pasteurized,

grass-fed, pasture-raised, organic cow milk. Other people say differently,

but I don't think that my grains did all that well on raw milk. However, I

could be wrong.

I believe that grass and pastured fed is essential. Also organic. Basically

I have the best milk that I can fine that works for me. I also have a family

that drinks milk. We drink raw goat milk, but should we run out at the end

of the milk-week, we can always drink Kalona Supernatural.

From: wcoy79@... <mailto:wcoy79%40>

Do you use raw milk? Would store bought milk, even if it's organic, be a

waste of time to use for kefir?

[Guest guest]

,

I am a little surprised that the raw milk would not be pastured fed. I have

never considered this possibility. I don't want to rain on your parade, but I

doubt seriously that I would drink such milk.

and Katrina Bird's Incredibly Lucky Daddy

From: sandrah@...

Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 21:55:03 -0600

Subject: RE: Question about type of milk

I was finally able to get some raw milk, they haven't been able to sell

raw

until just recently. The cows are not pasture fed, but they are organic.

I've noticed that the kefir from the raw milk is much thicker (almost chunky

when I dump it out of the jar). Because of the cream in the milk, the kefir

is also sweeter, as is the cheese.

On Behalf Of ROGER BIRD

,

I use Kalona Supernatural. It is unhomogenized but vat pasteurized,

grass-fed, pasture-raised, organic cow milk. Other people say differently,

but I don't think that my grains did all that well on raw milk. However, I

could be wrong.

I believe that grass and pastured fed is essential. Also organic. Basically

I have the best milk that I can fine that works for me. I also have a family

that drinks milk. We drink raw goat milk, but should we run out at the end

of the milk-week, we can always drink Kalona Supernatural.

From: wcoy79@... <mailto:wcoy79%40>

Do you use raw milk? Would store bought milk, even if it's organic, be a

waste of time to use for kefir?

[Guest guest]

I think I would drink raw nonpastured milk over pasteurized pastured

milk. The little enzymes are important.

But I would wonder about the cleanliness of a dairy that didn't pasture

their animals. Seems like they would be overcrowded and unhealthy. So

maybe I'd choose the pastured pasteured milk over the nonpastured

nonpasteured milk.

I think really I'd try to talk the pasture people into selling me some

of the real stuff.

Blessings,

[Guest guest]

> " It is unhomogenized but vat pasteurized "

>

Can someone please explain the difference between homogenized and pasteurized?

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 2, 2011, at 6:22 PM, ROGER BIRD <rogerbird1@...> wrote:

>

> ,

>

> I use Kalona Supernatural. It is unhomogenized but vat pasteurized, grass-fed,

pasture-raised, organic cow milk. Other people say differently, but I don't

think that my grains did all that well on raw milk. However, I could be wrong.

>

> I believe that grass and pastured fed is essential. Also organic. Basically I

have the best milk that I can fine that works for me. I also have a family that

drinks milk. We drink raw goat milk, but should we run out at the end of the

milk-week, we can always drink Kalona Supernatural.

>

>

>

> and Katrina Bird's Incredibly Lucky Daddy

>

>

> From: wcoy79@...

> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 17:13:07 -0400

> Subject: Re: Water kefir verses milk kefir

>

> Do you use raw milk? Would store bought milk, even if it's organic, be a waste

of time to use for kefir?

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

What if they're fed hay? Would you still have the same opinion? If I had a

choice over store bought milk or raw milk - both cows being fed the same-

I'd still drink and Kefir with the raw milk.

On Aug 3, 2011 1:56 AM, " ROGER BIRD " <rogerbird1@...> wrote:

>

> ,

>

> I am a little surprised that the raw milk would not be pastured fed. I

have never considered this possibility. I don't want to rain on your parade,

but I doubt seriously that I would drink such milk.

>

>

>

> and Katrina Bird's Incredibly Lucky Daddy

>

>

>

> From: sandrah@...

> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 21:55:03 -0600

> Subject: RE: Question about type of milk

>

>

>

>

>

>

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>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> I was finally able to get some raw milk, they haven't been able to sell

raw

>

> until just recently. The cows are not pasture fed, but they are organic.

>

> I've noticed that the kefir from the raw milk is much thicker (almost

chunky

>

> when I dump it out of the jar). Because of the cream in the milk, the

kefir

>

> is also sweeter, as is the cheese.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> On Behalf Of ROGER BIRD

>

> ,

>

>

>

> I use Kalona Supernatural. It is unhomogenized but vat pasteurized,

>

> grass-fed, pasture-raised, organic cow milk. Other people say differently,

>

> but I don't think that my grains did all that well on raw milk. However, I

>

> could be wrong.

>

>

>

> I believe that grass and pastured fed is essential. Also organic.

Basically

>

> I have the best milk that I can fine that works for me. I also have a

family

>

> that drinks milk. We drink raw goat milk, but should we run out at the end

>

> of the milk-week, we can always drink Kalona Supernatural.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> From: wcoy79@... <mailto:wcoy79%40>

>

> Do you use raw milk? Would store bought milk, even if it's organic, be a

>

> waste of time to use for kefir?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear , my sweet friend,

My problem with raw cow milk that is not grass-fed is that I have been arguing

with people who support the FDAs crackdown on raw milk for months, and one of

the things I have been saying is that raw milk of 100 year ago was so bad partly

because the cows were fed improperly.

I am sure that you can get a better answer from the folks at these two websites:

http://www.westonaprice.org/

http://www.realmilk.com/

Ask them. I am sure that they can give you a definitive answer. I am just an

old man with a boy who I love with all my heart. I am not even a farmer, other

than farming kefir in my kitchen.

I did read recently that someone who had access to government statistics had

calculated that the chance of getting food borne illness via raw milk is 35,000

times less likely than getting food borne illness from other foods. That is not

on the subject, but it is so good to hear. And that does not even count the

health benefit of raw milk and the health harm of pasteurized milk.

Sincerely,

Bird

and Katrina Bird's Incredibly Lucky Daddy

From: curlyw2kids@...

Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:36:13 -0500

Subject: RE: Question about type of milk

,

What if they're fed hay? Would you still have the same opinion? If I had a

choice over store bought milk or raw milk - both cows being fed the same-

I'd still drink and Kefir with the raw milk.

On Aug 3, 2011 1:56 AM, " ROGER BIRD " <rogerbird1@...> wrote:

>

> ,

>

> I am a little surprised that the raw milk would not be pastured fed. I

have never considered this possibility. I don't want to rain on your parade,

but I doubt seriously that I would drink such milk.

>

>

>

> and Katrina Bird's Incredibly Lucky Daddy

>

>

>

> From: sandrah@...

> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 21:55:03 -0600

> Subject: RE: Question about type of milk

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> I was finally able to get some raw milk, they haven't been able to sell

raw

>

> until just recently. The cows are not pasture fed, but they are organic.

>

> I've noticed that the kefir from the raw milk is much thicker (almost

chunky

>

> when I dump it out of the jar). Because of the cream in the milk, the

kefir

>

> is also sweeter, as is the cheese.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> On Behalf Of ROGER BIRD

>

> ,

>

>

>

> I use Kalona Supernatural. It is unhomogenized but vat pasteurized,

>

> grass-fed, pasture-raised, organic cow milk. Other people say differently,

>

> but I don't think that my grains did all that well on raw milk. However, I

>

> could be wrong.

>

>

>

> I believe that grass and pastured fed is essential. Also organic.

Basically

>

> I have the best milk that I can fine that works for me. I also have a

family

>

> that drinks milk. We drink raw goat milk, but should we run out at the end

>

> of the milk-week, we can always drink Kalona Supernatural.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> From: wcoy79@... <mailto:wcoy79%40>

>

> Do you use raw milk? Would store bought milk, even if it's organic, be a

>

> waste of time to use for kefir?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I go by my neighbors who sell raw milk and gourmet cheeses. They supplement the

grass with feed and use feed and hay in the winter. The milk is excellent and

the cows are in top shape. I don't know if a dairy cow of today could be healthy

on just grass. They give a LOT more milk than did cows of old.

The feed is custom made to the needs of these cows. The family are all college

graduates in agriculture and have been dairy farmers for numbers of generations.

Lee Anne (Pennsylvania)

>

> ,

>

> What if they're fed hay? Would you still have the same opinion? If I had a

> choice over store bought milk or raw milk - both cows being fed the same-

> I'd still drink and Kefir with the raw milk.

>

[Guest guest]

,

Do you mean that raw milk from cows of past (100 years ago...) was properly

GRASS & Hay fed (in winters)? Back then there was no such thing as man-made

garbage/hormones and such to even feed cows. They all ate grass in pastures

and hay in the winter (in climates that dictated such). They may have

gotten a few ears of (back then) naturally organic NON GMO corn when they

came in to be milked BY HAND but ate grass and hay otherwise.

You're right on the FDA wanting to keep raw milk from us. Processed dead

store milk is heavily subsidized by government (US) and by keeping raw milk

hard to get, the market for store milk does not have to compete.

LOVE the 2 sites you noted, Weston Price & Real Milk....

Alice

>

> Dear , my sweet friend,

>

> My problem with raw cow milk that is not grass-fed is that I have been

> arguing with people who support the FDAs crackdown on raw milk for months,

> and one of the things I have been saying is that raw milk of 100 year ago

> was so bad partly because the cows were fed improperly.

>

> I am sure that you can get a better answer from the folks at these two

> websites:

>

> http://www.westonaprice.org/

>

> http://www.realmilk.com/

>

> Ask them. I am sure that they can give you a definitive answer. I am

> just an old man with a boy who I love with all my heart. I am not even a

> farmer, other than farming kefir in my kitchen.

>

> I did read recently that someone who had access to government statistics

> had calculated that the chance of getting food borne illness via raw milk

> is 35,000 times less likely than getting food borne illness from other

> foods. That is not on the subject, but it is so good to hear. And that

> does not even count the health benefit of raw milk and the health harm of

> pasteurized milk.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Bird

>

> and Katrina Bird's Incredibly Lucky Daddy

>

>

> >

>

>

>

>

> On Aug 3, 2011 1:56 AM, " ROGER BIRD " <rogerbird1@...> wrote:

>

>>

>

>> ,

>

>>

>

>> I am a little surprised that the raw milk would not be pastured fed. I

>

> have never considered this possibility. I don't want to rain on your

> parade,

>

> but I doubt seriously that I would drink such milk.

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>> and Katrina Bird's Incredibly Lucky Daddy

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>> From: sandrah@...

>

>> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 21:55:03 -0600

>

>> Subject: RE: Question about type of milk

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

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>>

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>>

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>>

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>>

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>>

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>>

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>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>> I was finally able to get some raw milk, they haven't been able to sell

>

> raw

>

>>

>

>> until just recently. The cows are not pasture fed, but they are organic.

>

>>

>

>> I've noticed that the kefir from the raw milk is much thicker (almost

>

> chunky

>

>>

>

>> when I dump it out of the jar). Because of the cream in the milk, the

>

> kefir

>

>>

>

>> is also sweeter, as is the cheese.

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>> On Behalf Of ROGER BIRD

>

>>

>

>> ,

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>> I use Kalona Supernatural. It is unhomogenized but vat pasteurized,

>

>>

>

>> grass-fed, pasture-raised, organic cow milk. Other people say

>> differently,

>

>>

>

>> but I don't think that my grains did all that well on raw milk. However,

>> I

>

>>

>

>> could be wrong.

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>> I believe that grass and pastured fed is essential. Also organic.

>

> Basically

>

>>

>

>> I have the best milk that I can fine that works for me. I also have a

>

> family

>

>>

>

>> that drinks milk. We drink raw goat milk, but should we run out at the

>> end

>

>>

>

>> of the milk-week, we can always drink Kalona Supernatural.

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>> From: wcoy79@... <mailto:wcoy79%40>

>

>>

>

>> Do you use raw milk? Would store bought milk, even if it's organic, be a

>

>>

>

>> waste of time to use for kefir?

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

[Guest guest]

As I understand it, 100 years ago people were building big breweries and

supplying urban dairies with the brewer's waste as feed. Not a natural

diet; not a natural life.

The cows lived in overcrowded barns close to the breweries, which were

unsanitary because they contained overcrowded ill-fed cows. So the milk

wasn't very clean or very good.

Dairies supported pasteurization because it made the milk " safe " despite

the poor hygiene, but mostly because it made the milk keep better. So

they could ship farther and market to a wider area.

This helped some dairies get bigger and eventually put the smaller

dairies out of business.

[Guest guest]

I think I got it, . But I am not sure.

Wouldn't it be wild if " pasteur " meant " pasture " in English? Does anyone know?

and Katrina Bird's Incredibly Lucky Daddy

From: d.freyberger@...

Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:18:26 -0400

Subject: Re: Question about type of milk

I think I would drink raw nonpastured milk over pasteurized pastured

milk. The little enzymes are important.

But I would wonder about the cleanliness of a dairy that didn't pasture

their animals. Seems like they would be overcrowded and unhealthy. So

maybe I'd choose the pastured pasteured milk over the nonpastured

nonpasteured milk.

I think really I'd try to talk the pasture people into selling me some

of the real stuff.

Blessings,

[Guest guest]

Simple. Pasteurized is cooking the milk. Homogenized is forcing the milk

through little, tiny holes at extreme pressures.

Homogenized sounds harmless. It is not, and the worse part is that it does

nothing whatsoever to help the milk except to keep the fat from forming at the

top; it is entirely cosmetic.

Some writers I have read say that homogenization causes heart disease. Isn't

that a happy thought: we trade in health for appearance.

and Katrina Bird's Incredibly Lucky Daddy

From: wcoy79@...

Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:20:29 -0400

Subject: Re: Question about type of milk

> " It is unhomogenized but vat pasteurized "

>

Can someone please explain the difference between homogenized and pasteurized?

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Aug 2, 2011, at 6:22 PM, ROGER BIRD <rogerbird1@...> wrote:

>

> ,

>

> I use Kalona Supernatural. It is unhomogenized but vat pasteurized, grass-fed,

pasture-raised, organic cow milk. Other people say differently, but I don't

think that my grains did all that well on raw milk. However, I could be wrong.

>

> I believe that grass and pastured fed is essential. Also organic. Basically I

have the best milk that I can fine that works for me. I also have a family that

drinks milk. We drink raw goat milk, but should we run out at the end of the

milk-week, we can always drink Kalona Supernatural.

>

>

>

> and Katrina Bird's Incredibly Lucky Daddy

>

>

> From: wcoy79@...

> Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 17:13:07 -0400

> Subject: Re: Water kefir verses milk kefir

>

> Do you use raw milk? Would store bought milk, even if it's organic, be a waste

of time to use for kefir?

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

That is exactly my understanding, although I didn't think about the fact that

the milk could be shipped farther and the dairies that did so got bigger and

bigger and put the smaller dairies out of business.

and Katrina Bird's Incredibly Lucky Daddy

From: d.freyberger@...

Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 13:07:36 -0400

Subject: Re: Question about type of milk

As I understand it, 100 years ago people were building big breweries and

supplying urban dairies with the brewer's waste as feed. Not a natural

diet; not a natural life.

The cows lived in overcrowded barns close to the breweries, which were

unsanitary because they contained overcrowded ill-fed cows. So the milk

wasn't very clean or very good.

Dairies supported pasteurization because it made the milk " safe " despite

the poor hygiene, but mostly because it made the milk keep better. So

they could ship farther and market to a wider area.

This helped some dairies get bigger and eventually put the smaller

dairies out of business.

[Guest guest]

It is from Louis Pasteur who is credited with developing pasteurization to heat

the milk (he actually worked with beer and wine) to a point that would kill

pathogens without totally sterilizing it.

If you leave your cows out overnight they will become " pasteurized. " This fact

is attributed to Linus Van Pelt.

Lee Anne (Pennsylvania Geek)

>

>

> I think I got it, . But I am not sure.

>

> Wouldn't it be wild if " pasteur " meant " pasture " in English? Does anyone

know?

>

>

>

> and Katrina Bird's Incredibly Lucky Daddy

>

>

>

> From: d.freyberger@...

> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:18:26 -0400

> Subject: Re: Question about type of milk

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> I think I would drink raw nonpastured milk over pasteurized pastured

>

> milk. The little enzymes are important.

>

>

>

> But I would wonder about the cleanliness of a dairy that didn't pasture

>

> their animals. Seems like they would be overcrowded and unhealthy. So

>

> maybe I'd choose the pastured pasteured milk over the nonpastured

>

> nonpasteured milk.

>

>

>

> I think really I'd try to talk the pasture people into selling me some

>

> of the real stuff.

>

>

>

> Blessings,

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

But Lee Anne,

I know that the word " pasteurize " comes from Louis Pasteur. But doesn't it make

sense that the French name of " Pasteur " come from something else, like " "

came from someone who worked with metals and " " came from someone who

worked with copper and " DiNicola " came from " of Nicola " , the village. Names

usually come from some place. I am hoping that " Pasteur " came from the French

word for pasture.

and Katrina Bird's Incredibly Lucky Daddy

From: tigertame4@...

Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 22:46:43 +0000

Subject: Re: Question about type of milk

It is from Louis Pasteur who is credited with developing pasteurization to heat

the milk (he actually worked with beer and wine) to a point that would kill

pathogens without totally sterilizing it.

If you leave your cows out overnight they will become " pasteurized. " This fact

is attributed to Linus Van Pelt.

Lee Anne (Pennsylvania Geek)

>

>

> I think I got it, . But I am not sure.

>

> Wouldn't it be wild if " pasteur " meant " pasture " in English? Does anyone

know?

>

>

>

> and Katrina Bird's Incredibly Lucky Daddy

>

>

>

> From: d.freyberger@...

> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:18:26 -0400

> Subject: Re: Question about type of milk

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> I think I would drink raw nonpastured milk over pasteurized pastured

>

> milk. The little enzymes are important.

>

>

>

> But I would wonder about the cleanliness of a dairy that didn't pasture

>

> their animals. Seems like they would be overcrowded and unhealthy. So

>

> maybe I'd choose the pastured pasteured milk over the nonpastured

>

> nonpasteured milk.

>

>

>

> I think really I'd try to talk the pasture people into selling me some

>

> of the real stuff.

>

>

>

> Blessings,

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

What do you mean " without totally sterilizing it " ? This might be a very tiny

distinction, but could you please elaborate?

Leo

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Tigertame4 <tigertame4@...> wrote:

> **

>

>

>

> It is from Louis Pasteur who is credited with developing pasteurization to

> heat the milk (he actually worked with beer and wine) to a point that would

> kill pathogens without totally sterilizing it.

>

> If you leave your cows out overnight they will become " pasteurized. " This

> fact is attributed to Linus Van Pelt.

>

> Lee Anne (Pennsylvania Geek)

>

> >

> >

> > I think I got it, . But I am not sure.

> >

> > Wouldn't it be wild if " pasteur " meant " pasture " in English? Does anyone

> know?

>

> >

> >

> >

> > and Katrina Bird's Incredibly Lucky Daddy

> >

> >

> >

> > From: d.freyberger@...

> > Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 08:18:26 -0400

>

> > Subject: Re: Question about type of milk

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I think I would drink raw nonpastured milk over pasteurized pastured

> >

> > milk. The little enzymes are important.

> >

> >

> >

> > But I would wonder about the cleanliness of a dairy that didn't pasture

> >

> > their animals. Seems like they would be overcrowded and unhealthy. So

> >

> > maybe I'd choose the pastured pasteured milk over the nonpastured

> >

> > nonpasteured milk.

> >

> >

> >

> > I think really I'd try to talk the pasture people into selling me some

> >

> > of the real stuff.

> >

> >

> >

> > Blessings,

>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

It does not kill ALL organisms like the enzymes. There are different methods

used. Commercial types heat the milk to a higher temp for short periods of time

(a few seconds). When I lived in Germany and Saudi Arabia we sometimes got milk

that you could keep in the cupboard until you opened it. That was heated higher

to kill more stuff so it was shelf stable. It was not the tastiest of milk.

If you actually sterilized the milk I imagine it would taste pretty flat.

Our one Amish neighbor pasteurizes her milk using a slower process lower temp

and longer time of heating. I don't know how it tastes.

Originally, it was done to kill off things like Tuberculosis. Today, cows are

tested frequently to make sure they do not carry bad stuff. Additionally, the

milk is tested frequently as well for any pathogens.

I drank raw milk as a child and so did my Dad who is 91. We have never gotten

sick. (I know this is a small sample but.. I really like raw milk)

Lee Anne (Pennsylvania Geek)

-- In , Leo Girardi <leo.girardi@...> wrote:

>

> What do you mean " without totally sterilizing it " ? This might be a very tiny

> distinction, but could you please elaborate?

>

> Leo

>

> On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Tigertame4 <tigertame4@...> wrote:

>

> > **

> >

> >

> >

> > It is from Louis Pasteur who is credited with developing pasteurization to

> > heat the milk (he actually worked with beer and wine) to a point that would

> > kill pathogens without totally sterilizing it.

> >

> > If you leave your cows out overnight they will become " pasteurized. " This

> > fact is attributed to Linus Van Pelt.

> >

[Guest guest]

The French word for pasture is pyturage.

Lee Anne (Pennsylvania Geek)

>

>

> But Lee Anne,

>

> I know that the word " pasteurize " comes from Louis Pasteur. But doesn't it

make sense that the French name of " Pasteur " come from something else, like

" " came from someone who worked with metals and " " came from someone

who worked with copper and " DiNicola " came from " of Nicola " , the village. Names

usually come from some place. I am hoping that " Pasteur " came from the French

word for pasture.

>

>

>

> and Katrina Bird's Incredibly Lucky Daddy

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well, not sure an enzyme would be considered an organism, just like a

vitamin is not considered one, but is destroyed by heat. Most enzymes are

destroyed well below pasteurization temperatures. Some recommendations, ie

Weston Price Foundation, etc, seem to imply if it's too hot to put your

finger in, it's killing enzymes. Also, look at why vitamins are added back

into so many products. UHTP, which you can leave the milk on the shelf for

months at room temp, um, well, if anyone thinks that's food, so be it.

When I make beef jerky,etc I try to always keep temps below 100F to preserve

vitamins and enzymes, and anything else that might be hiding out there. But

always use the best raw ingredients to start with.

A really good conceptual discussion of sterilization vs sanitation can be

found in " The Complete Joy of Homebrewing " by Charlie P.

Also, as far as someone ragging on for discussing milk, I would have

to say that it's no different than water kefir people talking about tap vs

boiled tap vs distilled vs bottled, etc. very relevant. And I also find

everyones experience very informative. It would take me years and years,

and too much $$$ to put all this together on my own. I thank everyone for

their info.

Leo

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Tigertame4 <tigertame4@...> wrote:

> **

>

>

>

> It does not kill ALL organisms like the enzymes. There are different

> methods used. Commercial types heat the milk to a higher temp for short

> periods of time (a few seconds). When I lived in Germany and Saudi Arabia we

> sometimes got milk that you could keep in the cupboard until you opened it.

> That was heated higher to kill more stuff so it was shelf stable. It was not

> the tastiest of milk.

>

> If you actually sterilized the milk I imagine it would taste pretty flat.

>

> Our one Amish neighbor pasteurizes her milk using a slower process lower

> temp and longer time of heating. I don't know how it tastes.

>

> Originally, it was done to kill off things like Tuberculosis. Today, cows

> are tested frequently to make sure they do not carry bad stuff.

> Additionally, the milk is tested frequently as well for any pathogens.

>

> I drank raw milk as a child and so did my Dad who is 91. We have never

> gotten sick. (I know this is a small sample but.. I really like raw milk)

>

> Lee Anne (Pennsylvania Geek)

>

> -- In , Leo Girardi <leo.girardi@...>

> wrote:

> >

> > What do you mean " without totally sterilizing it " ? This might be a very

> tiny

> > distinction, but could you please elaborate?

> >

> > Leo

> >

> > On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Tigertame4 <tigertame4@...> wrote:

> >

> > > **

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > It is from Louis Pasteur who is credited with developing pasteurization

> to

> > > heat the milk (he actually worked with beer and wine) to a point that

> would

> > > kill pathogens without totally sterilizing it.

> > >

> > > If you leave your cows out overnight they will become " pasteurized. "

> This

> > > fact is attributed to Linus Van Pelt.

> > >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dang!!! So I missed a great opportunity for a pun.

and Katrina Bird's Incredibly Lucky Daddy

From: tigertame4@...

Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 23:29:29 +0000

Subject: Re: Question about type of milk

The French word for pasture is pyturage.

Lee Anne (Pennsylvania Geek)

[Guest guest]

You might tell your friend that the brain is almost 100% fat, not counting the

water. As is the breast. But best of all, every cell is loaded with fat. It

is excess body fat that is bad, not dietary fat. Dietary fat is about 3 times

more satisfying, but it has only 2.25 times more calories than carbs.

Just ask what human beings and our ancestors ate for millions and millions of

years before the agricultural revolution. Not carbs. Mostly protein, fats, and

veggies.

and Katrina Bird's Incredibly Lucky Daddy

From: sandrah@...

Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:21:58 -0600

Subject: Question about type of milk

Actually, , a cooper is someone who makes barrels bound together with

hoops.

Question on skim milk. I have a co-worker I was telling about Kefir and

she's very interested in making it, but she's starting a diet that calls for

skim milk,. Reading back through the postings, I saw several references

that indicate the kefir grains would do just fine in skim milk, but I'd

really like to have facts to show her that whole milk is much healthier than

skim.

I saw the posting about needing fat for the fat soluble vitamins; is there

anything else?

RE: Re: Question about type of milk

But Lee Anne,

I know that the word " pasteurize " comes from Louis Pasteur. But doesn't it

make sense that the French name of " Pasteur " come from something else, like

" " came from someone who worked with metals and " " came from

someone who worked with copper and " DiNicola " came from " of Nicola " , the

village. Names usually come from some place. I am hoping that " Pasteur "

came from the French word for pasture.

[Guest guest]

Sanda,

What says about needing the fat, etc is very true, but also look

at his comments on non-homogenized milk. They should go hand in hand.

*IF* skim milk was just made from raw milk by " skimming " off the cream

that rose to the top, it might not be as healthy as whole, but not

harmful. You need to do some research for your friend on how real

modern day processed skim milk is made, it involves many steps, and

usually adding back in non fat dried milk, etc. It is a highly

processed product. If she is starting a diet that calls for skim

milk, I would be highly critical of the diet protocol itself.

Leo

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 9:05 PM, ROGER BIRD <rogerbird1@...> wrote:

>

> You might tell your friend that the brain is almost 100% fat, not counting the

water.  As is the breast.  But best of all, every cell is loaded with fat.  It

is excess body fat that is bad, not dietary fat.  Dietary fat is about 3 times

more satisfying, but it has only 2.25 times more calories than carbs.

>

> Just ask what human beings and our ancestors ate for millions and millions of

years before the agricultural revolution.  Not carbs.  Mostly protein, fats, and

veggies.

>

>

>

> and Katrina Bird's Incredibly Lucky Daddy

>

>

>

> From: sandrah@...

> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 20:21:58 -0600

> Subject: Question about type of milk

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>      Actually, , a cooper is someone who makes barrels bound together

with

>

> hoops.

>

>

>

> Question on skim milk.  I have a co-worker I was telling about Kefir and

>

> she's very interested in making it, but she's starting a diet that calls for

>

> skim milk,.  Reading back through the postings, I saw several references

>

> that indicate the kefir grains would do just fine in skim milk, but I'd

>

> really like to have facts to show her that whole milk is much healthier than

>

> skim.

>

>

>

> I saw the posting about needing fat for the fat soluble vitamins; is there

>

> anything else?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> RE: Re: Question about type of milk

>

>

>

> But Lee Anne,

>

>

>

> I know that the word " pasteurize " comes from Louis Pasteur.  But doesn't it

>

> make sense that the French name of " Pasteur " come from something else, like

>

> " " came from someone who worked with metals and " " came from

>

> someone who worked with copper and " DiNicola " came from " of Nicola " , the

>

> village.  Names usually come from some place.  I am hoping that " Pasteur "

>

> came from the French word for pasture.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>>> Wouldn't it be wild if " pasteur " meant " pasture " in English? Does

anyone know? <<<

Hi ,

You can search for " free online translator " and get one of many sites

that will do this sort of thing, though badly.

I found one and it tells me that " pasteur " is French for " pastor " , and

the French for " pasture " is " pacage " .

But of course pastor is related to pasture, so you can still make the

connection.

I just think it's funny that they're anagrams.

[Guest guest]

>>>It does not kill ALL organisms like the enzymes.<<<

Hi Lee Anne,

Enzymes are not organisms, they are proteins, but " enzyme life " is

spoken of because they have biological activity that can be lost when

they are heated. They have a complex shape that allows them to hold

other molecules in position to greatly increase their (the other

molecules') reactivity. Lactase, for example, is an enzyme that holds

milk sugar (lactose) and breaks it down.

When any protein is heated its shape changes. Mozzarella cheese is

mostly protein, and gets all loose and stretchy when you heat it.

Enzymes do too, but they can't usually resume their complicated active

shapes when they cool down again. So after pasteurization, you don't

have active enzymes in the milk anymore.

--------------------------

One more comment:

Pasteurization does not kill Shigella, for example. That's why Hulda has

people boiling their milk! I say drink raw milk from cows and goats that don't

have the Shigella to pass on to us.

Marilyn

[Guest guest]

We have evidence that kefir grains stay very small on skimmed milk and can

get very large on whole milk, especially whole Jersey milk. I vote for whole

unadulterated milk.

Kefir grains can live just fine on skimmed milk but since they stay small

there just might be something missing in their probiotic make up that keeps

them small. I know of no analysis. Whole milk kefir tastes a whole lot

better than skim kefir. You all know how I emphasize taste.

Marilyn

On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 10:21 PM, Holladay <sandrah@...>wrote:

> Actually, , a cooper is someone who makes barrels bound together with

> hoops.

>

> Question on skim milk. I have a co-worker I was telling about Kefir and

> she's very interested in making it, but she's starting a diet that calls

> for

> skim milk,. Reading back through the postings, I saw several references

> that indicate the kefir grains would do just fine in skim milk, but I'd

> really like to have facts to show her that whole milk is much healthier

> than

> skim.

>

> I saw the posting about needing fat for the fat soluble vitamins; is there

> anything else?

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I used to use those translators all the time when I was doing ChaCha, but

I forgot all about it. And pastor does come from pasture, as in flock. And

they are an anagram.

The funny thing is, that near the end of his life Pasteur changed his mind and

said that the robustness of the organism was everything and the germ meant

nothing. I don't know if I would go that far because I won't be testing that

theory by getting bit by a rabid dog, but the robustness of the person is at

least 90% of health, if not more.

and Katrina Bird's Incredibly Lucky Daddy

From: d.freyberger@...

Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 08:52:08 -0400

Subject: Re: Question about type of milk

>>> Wouldn't it be wild if " pasteur " meant " pasture " in English? Does

anyone know? <<<

Hi ,

You can search for " free online translator " and get one of many sites

that will do this sort of thing, though badly.

I found one and it tells me that " pasteur " is French for " pastor " , and

the French for " pasture " is " pacage " .

But of course pastor is related to pasture, so you can still make the

connection.

I just think it's funny that they're anagrams.