Re: Prolotherapy Report/Dr. Darrow

[Guest guest]

Hey Jodi:

Sorry that didn't go better.

I'm angry that Dr. Darrow didn't spend more time examining you, but I

guess I should have expected that. A few members of our Group went

to see Dr. Hauser in Illinois (who is also very well respected and

has written several books on Prolotherapy) and got the

same, " assembly-line " treatment.

The more time I spend with this Group, the more I realize how lucky I

was to find my doc. Unfortunately, he only has offices in

Connecticut, and there don't appear to be many other doctors like him.

Despite my disappointment with the way you were treated, I am going

to defend Dr. Darrow. I agree with him that many of the treatments

for CP are wastes of time and money. I also think that he believes

every word he is telling you. After the experiences I've had, I

believe Prolotherapy, in the hands of an experienced and caring

provider, is exactly what many people with bad knees, backs,

shoulders, etc. need.

I suppose Drs. Darrow and Hauser both believe (truly believe) that

Prolotherapy is so effective and so safe that it isn't necessary to

spend too much time isolating which structures are weak or finding an

alignment probelm or imbalance. Basically, they treat the whole

area, believing the knee joint, once strengthened, will begin to

function better and the pain will go away. Most of the time, they

are successful.

Come to think of it, Dr. Cohen (my doc) treated my whole knee (VMO

attachment, patellar tendon, pes anserinus, medial and lateral

collateral ligaments, lateral coronary ligament, etc.) although I

only had pain on the medial side where the VMO attaches. The

difference is, Dr. Cohen discovered the hip-alignment problem I had

that led to the knee problem. I worry that Drs. Darrow and Hauser

might miss something like that (a foot, hip or back problem) that led

to your knee problems.

Still, I know that Prolotherapy was effective in improving the

overall function of my knee (it doesn't pop and crack as much

anymore) and alleviating the pain. That is why I have been such a

proponent of it over the last year and a half. I think Dr. Darrow

shares my enthusiasm, but has forgotten what it was like when he

first learned about Prolotherapy and thought (like everyone does)

that it was a way out there in the realm of alternative medicine.

True, Prolotherapy isn't usually covered by insurance, although some

carriers will reimburse for the treatments. I spent about $1500 out-

of-pocket (only one knee), but it was well worth it. My wife thought

I was INSANE to be spending that much money on some treatment I'd

never heard of, but I trusted Dr. Cohen. I can't explain why, I just

did. Probably because he was the opposite of the " salesman " type

that Dr. Darrow seems to be.

Can you tell us more about this kidney-knee relationship? Did the

chiropractor/physical medicine guy think that your kidney problems

were leading to a systemic connective tissue problem? Or is it just

your knees? I'm very curious about all that.

Anyway, I'm not trying to sell you on Prolotherapy -- sounds like

you've had enough of that already. I'm just trying to help you

determine who is after your best interests and who is only after your

money. Ultimately, you are the only one who can decide your best

course of action.

Feel free to E-mail with questions, comments or problems.

Take care,

Doug

dougfromct2002@...

> Hello, all. I just went to see Mark Darrow, the famous prolotherapy

> dude, and wanted to report in, as there's been much discussion

> lately about prolo. First of all, I didn't realize beforehand that

> it is not covered by any insurance, and costs $250 per injection.

> Since they say it takes anywhere from 3-8 injections per knee,

we're

> talking about $1,500-$4,000. The minute I walked in, I felt like I

> was being sold something. The Drs. (Darrow & another MD) barely

> examined me before spouting all this stuff about how prolo is the

> only thing that will help me & everything else I've been doing

> (hyalgan, glucosamine supps, etc...) is a waste of time and $. They

> say the Prolo will actually rebuild the cartilage that is wearing

> away. I was disappointed, as I keep hearing that I need to find a

> dr. that will thoroughly examine me (right Doug?). Anyway, I have

to

> say, I was more convinced about Prolo before i went in there. Now I

> have major doubts, but also think it might be very helpful & if I

> knew that it would help me, I'd be willing to pay anything. (Well,

> almost...) They also had me meet with a chiropractor/physical

> medecine dr. He was much more interesting and claims (along with my

> acupuncturist) that my kidneys are at fault! Anyone else ever hear

> something like this?? Apparently, according to Chinese Med, the

> kidneys control the knees...

>

> Sorry this is so long. I'm interested in what you all think about

> this...

> Jodi

[Guest guest]

Hey Doug-

Thanks for writing this. I was a bit disappointed, but still believe

prolo might be helpful & am keeping it in mind if nothing else works.

One interesting thing is that my current doc (pain specialist)

offered to learn more about prolo himself & do it for me & bill it as

a regular visit. He's apparently been curious about it & is going to

call Dr. Darrow to learn the specifics. I thought that was nice of

him, but do you think there's a downside to having someone perform

prolo who's not very experienced at it? In other words, how specific

is it & do you think he'd need much training?

As for the kidney stuff, my understanding (tenuous) is that in

chinese medicine/acupuncture organs match up more specifically with

other parts of the body than in western med. So for example, kidneys

control the knees and the ankles and the hips. I'm still not totally

clear on how that connection is made, but if we buy into that, then

if you have weak kidneys, you'll have pain in your knees or ankles or

wherever you have a weakness. What's really interesting is that when

I go to acupuncture, the places where it feels the most intense is

the specific points that are meant to stimulate the kidneys. when

they stick Other points, like the adrenal points or whatever, i feel

nothing. Plus, I do have a sugar weakness (hypoglycemic) which is

obviously kidney-related (like diabetes). I wonder if anyone else on

this site has kidney/sugar issues??? That would be interesting. I'm

going for a full-on physical with a regular doc tomorrow and

hopefully i'll get him to test my kidneys and see what the western

take on all this is.

--Jodi

-- In chondromalacia treatment , " dougfromct2002 "

<dougfromct2002@y...> wrote:

> Hey Jodi:

>

> Sorry that didn't go better.

>

> I'm angry that Dr. Darrow didn't spend more time examining you, but

I

> guess I should have expected that. A few members of our Group went

> to see Dr. Hauser in Illinois (who is also very well respected and

> has written several books on Prolotherapy) and got the

> same, " assembly-line " treatment.

>

> The more time I spend with this Group, the more I realize how lucky

I

> was to find my doc. Unfortunately, he only has offices in

> Connecticut, and there don't appear to be many other doctors like

him.

>

> Despite my disappointment with the way you were treated, I am going

> to defend Dr. Darrow. I agree with him that many of the treatments

> for CP are wastes of time and money. I also think that he believes

> every word he is telling you. After the experiences I've had, I

> believe Prolotherapy, in the hands of an experienced and caring

> provider, is exactly what many people with bad knees, backs,

> shoulders, etc. need.

>

> I suppose Drs. Darrow and Hauser both believe (truly believe) that

> Prolotherapy is so effective and so safe that it isn't necessary to

> spend too much time isolating which structures are weak or finding

an

> alignment probelm or imbalance. Basically, they treat the whole

> area, believing the knee joint, once strengthened, will begin to

> function better and the pain will go away. Most of the time, they

> are successful.

>

> Come to think of it, Dr. Cohen (my doc) treated my whole knee (VMO

> attachment, patellar tendon, pes anserinus, medial and lateral

> collateral ligaments, lateral coronary ligament, etc.) although I

> only had pain on the medial side where the VMO attaches. The

> difference is, Dr. Cohen discovered the hip-alignment problem I had

> that led to the knee problem. I worry that Drs. Darrow and Hauser

> might miss something like that (a foot, hip or back problem) that

led

> to your knee problems.

>

> Still, I know that Prolotherapy was effective in improving the

> overall function of my knee (it doesn't pop and crack as much

> anymore) and alleviating the pain. That is why I have been such a

> proponent of it over the last year and a half. I think Dr. Darrow

> shares my enthusiasm, but has forgotten what it was like when he

> first learned about Prolotherapy and thought (like everyone does)

> that it was a way out there in the realm of alternative medicine.

>

> True, Prolotherapy isn't usually covered by insurance, although

some

> carriers will reimburse for the treatments. I spent about $1500

out-

> of-pocket (only one knee), but it was well worth it. My wife

thought

> I was INSANE to be spending that much money on some treatment I'd

> never heard of, but I trusted Dr. Cohen. I can't explain why, I

just

> did. Probably because he was the opposite of the " salesman " type

> that Dr. Darrow seems to be.

>

> Can you tell us more about this kidney-knee relationship? Did the

> chiropractor/physical medicine guy think that your kidney problems

> were leading to a systemic connective tissue problem? Or is it

just

> your knees? I'm very curious about all that.

>

> Anyway, I'm not trying to sell you on Prolotherapy -- sounds like

> you've had enough of that already. I'm just trying to help you

> determine who is after your best interests and who is only after

your

> money. Ultimately, you are the only one who can decide your best

> course of action.

>

> Feel free to E-mail with questions, comments or problems.

>

> Take care,

> Doug

> dougfromct2002@y...

>

>

> > Hello, all. I just went to see Mark Darrow, the famous

prolotherapy

> > dude, and wanted to report in, as there's been much discussion

> > lately about prolo. First of all, I didn't realize beforehand

that

> > it is not covered by any insurance, and costs $250 per injection.

> > Since they say it takes anywhere from 3-8 injections per knee,

> we're

> > talking about $1,500-$4,000. The minute I walked in, I felt like

I

> > was being sold something. The Drs. (Darrow & another MD) barely

> > examined me before spouting all this stuff about how prolo is the

> > only thing that will help me & everything else I've been doing

> > (hyalgan, glucosamine supps, etc...) is a waste of time and $.

They

> > say the Prolo will actually rebuild the cartilage that is wearing

> > away. I was disappointed, as I keep hearing that I need to find a

> > dr. that will thoroughly examine me (right Doug?). Anyway, I have

> to

> > say, I was more convinced about Prolo before i went in there. Now

I

> > have major doubts, but also think it might be very helpful & if I

> > knew that it would help me, I'd be willing to pay anything.

(Well,

> > almost...) They also had me meet with a chiropractor/physical

> > medecine dr. He was much more interesting and claims (along with

my

> > acupuncturist) that my kidneys are at fault! Anyone else ever

hear

> > something like this?? Apparently, according to Chinese Med, the

> > kidneys control the knees...

> >

> > Sorry this is so long. I'm interested in what you all think about

> > this...

> > Jodi

[Guest guest]

Jodi:

Kudos to your doc for being curious enough to want to learn, but I

wouldn't let an inexperienced guy inject you unless there was an

experienced guy right there with him. That is how Prolotherapy has

been taught since it was developed -- " passed down " from one doctor

to the next.

As far as the kidney/sugar stuff goes, it certainly makes sense. I

find that kind of thing very interesting, especially how you reacted

to the acupuncture.

Do you think your hypoglycemia issues have led to kidney damage, or

the other way around? I know diabetes can lead to kidney failure,

but the pancreas secretes insulin, right?

I'm interested to hear what your 'regular doc' has to say.

Good luck,

Doug

> > > Hello, all. I just went to see Mark Darrow, the famous

> prolotherapy

> > > dude, and wanted to report in, as there's been much discussion

> > > lately about prolo. First of all, I didn't realize beforehand

> that

> > > it is not covered by any insurance, and costs $250 per

injection.

> > > Since they say it takes anywhere from 3-8 injections per knee,

> > we're

> > > talking about $1,500-$4,000. The minute I walked in, I felt

like

> I

> > > was being sold something. The Drs. (Darrow & another MD) barely

> > > examined me before spouting all this stuff about how prolo is

the

> > > only thing that will help me & everything else I've been doing

> > > (hyalgan, glucosamine supps, etc...) is a waste of time and $.

> They

> > > say the Prolo will actually rebuild the cartilage that is

wearing

> > > away. I was disappointed, as I keep hearing that I need to find

a

> > > dr. that will thoroughly examine me (right Doug?). Anyway, I

have

> > to

> > > say, I was more convinced about Prolo before i went in there.

Now

> I

> > > have major doubts, but also think it might be very helpful & if

I

> > > knew that it would help me, I'd be willing to pay anything.

> (Well,

> > > almost...) They also had me meet with a chiropractor/physical

> > > medecine dr. He was much more interesting and claims (along

with

> my

> > > acupuncturist) that my kidneys are at fault! Anyone else ever

> hear

> > > something like this?? Apparently, according to Chinese Med, the

> > > kidneys control the knees...

> > >

> > > Sorry this is so long. I'm interested in what you all think

about

> > > this...

> > > Jodi

[Guest guest]

doug,

do you believe that prolo can help a rotator cuff injury? the IAGH

knee is doing ok. it did not grow full cartilage but at least some

grew back.

rob wilson

> > > > Hello, all. I just went to see Mark Darrow, the famous

> > prolotherapy

> > > > dude, and wanted to report in, as there's been much

discussion

> > > > lately about prolo. First of all, I didn't realize beforehand

> > that

> > > > it is not covered by any insurance, and costs $250 per

> injection.

> > > > Since they say it takes anywhere from 3-8 injections per

knee,

> > > we're

> > > > talking about $1,500-$4,000. The minute I walked in, I felt

> like

> > I

> > > > was being sold something. The Drs. (Darrow & another MD)

barely

> > > > examined me before spouting all this stuff about how prolo is

> the

> > > > only thing that will help me & everything else I've been

doing

> > > > (hyalgan, glucosamine supps, etc...) is a waste of time and

$.

> > They

> > > > say the Prolo will actually rebuild the cartilage that is

> wearing

> > > > away. I was disappointed, as I keep hearing that I need to

find

> a

> > > > dr. that will thoroughly examine me (right Doug?). Anyway, I

> have

> > > to

> > > > say, I was more convinced about Prolo before i went in there.

> Now

> > I

> > > > have major doubts, but also think it might be very helpful &

if

> I

> > > > knew that it would help me, I'd be willing to pay anything.

> > (Well,

> > > > almost...) They also had me meet with a chiropractor/physical

> > > > medecine dr. He was much more interesting and claims (along

> with

> > my

> > > > acupuncturist) that my kidneys are at fault! Anyone else ever

> > hear

> > > > something like this?? Apparently, according to Chinese Med,

the

> > > > kidneys control the knees...

> > > >

> > > > Sorry this is so long. I'm interested in what you all think

> about

> > > > this...

> > > > Jodi

[Guest guest]

Rob:

Great news on your knee! So you'd say the IAGH 'worked'? On a

scale of 1 to 10, what is your pain level now compared to before the

IAGH?

If you don't have a full-thickness tear or anything too serious

going on, I am sure prolotherapy could help with your rotator cuff.

It is largely made up of tendons, and tendons can be strengthened

with prolo. The trick is, or course, finding a good prolo guy near

you.

If you go here

http://www.sportsprolo.com/

and scroll down to the section on Prolotherapy and Shoulder

Injuries, you'll see an article about rotator cuff injuries. The

link to the article was too long to paste.

And

http://www.getprolo.com

may help you track down a provider in your area.

Good luck,

Doug

> doug,

>

> do you believe that prolo can help a rotator cuff injury? the IAGH

> knee is doing ok. it did not grow full cartilage but at least some

> grew back.

>

> rob wilson

[Guest guest]

I don't think my knee is completely healed either, however I'd guess that I

had some regrowth also. I 'can' do more post IAGH, than prior to it. Did a

mtn bike race this past weekend. I have also been able to regain quite a

bit of strength which helps too. I do think there is something to IAGH, and

I'm sure some would respond better than others.

Re: Prolotherapy Report/Dr. Darrow

> Rob:

>

> Great news on your knee! So you'd say the IAGH 'worked'? On a

> scale of 1 to 10, what is your pain level now compared to before the

> IAGH?

>

> If you don't have a full-thickness tear or anything too serious

> going on, I am sure prolotherapy could help with your rotator cuff.

> It is largely made up of tendons, and tendons can be strengthened

> with prolo. The trick is, or course, finding a good prolo guy near

> you.

>

> If you go here

> http://www.sportsprolo.com/

> and scroll down to the section on Prolotherapy and Shoulder

> Injuries, you'll see an article about rotator cuff injuries. The

> link to the article was too long to paste.

>

> And

> http://www.getprolo.com

> may help you track down a provider in your area.

>

> Good luck,

> Doug

>

>

> > doug,

> >

> > do you believe that prolo can help a rotator cuff injury? the IAGH

> > knee is doing ok. it did not grow full cartilage but at least some

> > grew back.

> >

> > rob wilson

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Chuck, Rob, Doug and gang,

I have been patiently waiting for Rob and Chuck to state what

everyone has been waiting for:- Can IAGH grow back the cartilege or

not????

Doug's question is one the mark lads ... On a scale of 1 to 10 what

is your pain level improvement now compared to last year?

Cross my fingers on your answer (don't exagerate lads) this is top

scientific research ... so to speak!!

Mark.

> > doug,

> >

> > do you believe that prolo can help a rotator cuff injury? the

IAGH

> > knee is doing ok. it did not grow full cartilage but at least

some

> > grew back.

> >

> > rob wilson

[Guest guest]

doug,

i would say my pain went from a 3 with 10 being no pain to a 7 after

IAGH but part of that was that something was caught. i definitely got

some improvement and according to the surgery notes i definitely got

some cartilage to grow back. the good thing is that it is close to

real cartilage not fibercartilage that is inferior to hyaline

cartilage. i am doing IAGH on my other knee in August. it has a gr 4

trochlea defect.

thanks for the info on prolo. i will give it a try but we only have

one doctor in the Akron/Caonton/Cleveland area.

rob

> > doug,

> >

> > do you believe that prolo can help a rotator cuff injury? the

IAGH

> > knee is doing ok. it did not grow full cartilage but at least

some

> > grew back.

> >

> > rob wilson