Re: Q (What was your intended subject?)

[Guest guest]

That's great Joe! I'm glad someone else is at

least investigating prolotherapy. There is no question

in my mind that prolotherapy does what it is

supposed to do (strengthen tendons and ligaments); the

question that remains is whether it will help your

particular knee problems. I really hope your guy can help

you. If you have any questions before you go or after,

feel free to drop me an E-mail

(dougfromct2002@...) or post a question here.<br><br>And since you

brought it up (), if anyone else is interested, I got

the information below from a Prolotherapy Newsletter

from<br><a href=http://www.getprolo.com.'>http://www.getprolo.com.

target=new>http://www.getprolo.com.</a><br><br>Take care everyone. I wish you

all a Happy New Year

and Happy Knees in 2002!<br><br>-

Doug<br><br><br>**** Lectures around the US ****<br><br>Southern New

Jersey/Philadelphia Metro Area <br>Prolotherapy <br> Greenberg,

M.D., is offering lectures at his Cherry Hill, New

Jersey office on the following dates in 2002: January 15

, February 12, March 12, April 16, May 21, June 11,

July 9, all lectures start at 7:00 PM. If you have

questions about these lectures you <br>can call Dr.

Greenberg's office at (856) 424-8222. <br><br>Ohio <br>Jay

Nielsen, M.D., offers a wide range of lectures and

discussions in his Maumee office. The January dates are

January 10, 17, and 24th. <br>You can call Dr. Nielsen's

office at <br>419-897-6490 <br><br>Wisconsin <br>

Faber, D.O., offers many seminars. Call 414-464-7246 for

information.<br><br><br>**** Updated Physician List **** <br><br>Below is a

complete listings of physicians listed on the

www.getprolo.com site through December 27, 2001. To find the exact

location of each physician and to get more information,

please go to <a href=http://www.getprolo.com

target=new>http://www.getprolo.com</a><br><br>ARIZONA

<br>Kent L. Pomeroy, M.D. <br>Ellis V. Browning, M.D.

<br><br>CALIFORNIA <br>Donna Alderman, D.O. <br>Marc Darrow, M.D.

<br> Kulik, M.D. <br> Rowen, M.D. <br>Terri Su,

M.D <br>Hanson Wong, M.D. <br><br>CONNECTICUT

<br>Lawrence D. Cohen, M.D. & lt;----- THIS IS MY

DOCTOR<br><br>FLORIDA <br> Kraucak, M.D. <br>Bernard Miot, M.D.

<br>H.G. , M.D. <br>S. Todd , M.D.

<br>Alvin Stein, M.D. <br><br>GEORGIA <br>M. Truett

Bridges, Jr., M.D. <br><br>ILLINOIS <br>Ross Hauser, M.D.

<br><br>KANSAS <br>K. Dean Reeves, M.D. <br><br>LOUISIANA

<br> Fortier-Bensen, M.D. <br><br>MARYLAND <br>Ingrid

Green, M.D. <br><br>MASSACHUSETTS <br>Jon Trister, M.D.

<br><br>MISSISSIPPI <br> Fortier-Bensen, M.D. <br><br>NORTH

CAROLINA <br> Blievernicht, M.D. <br><br>NEW JERSEY

<br> Greenberg, M.D. <br>Anwer Rasheed, M.D.

<br><br>NEW YORK <br>Lawrence D. Cohen, M.D. & lt;----- THIS

IS MY DOCTOR<br> L. Speciale, D.O.

<br><br>OHIO <br>Jay W. Nielsen, M.D. <br><br>PENNSYLVANIA

<br> Greenberg, M.D. <br>Kab S. Hong, M.D.

<br><br>SOUTH CAROLINA <br> Schwartz, M.D. <br><br>TEXAS

<br> K. , M.D. <br>Jim Holleman, D.O. <br>ph

G. Valdez, M.D. <br> Teitelbaum, DO

<br><br>VIRGINIA <br>Mayo Friedlis, M.D. <br> H. Wagner,

M.D. <br><br>WASHINGTON STATE <br> S. Koch,

M.D. <br> A. Sandler, M.D. <br><br>WISCONSIN

<br> J. Faber, D.O.

[Guest guest]

Yes Doug, I agree with you. From the little I've

read it seems that prolotherapy principally

strengthens ligaments rather than cartilage, so if we have

ligament problems then we're more likely to get some sort

of help from prolotherapy.<br><br>Like you say, it

may not help my particular knee problem - the

ligaments are probably all absolutely fine!!! So I'm not

holding out that much hope, but it's still definitely

worth a look.<br><br>In " Prolo Your Pain Away " which I

bought from Amazon (BIG PLUG for the best book retailer

in the world) Ross Hauser talks about the " pes

anserinus " ligament area on the medial side of the knee

joint. Well this precise area is where I do get quite a

lot of pain (actually in the ligament and bone area

rather than the joint line) so it'll be interesting to

hear what my good doctor has to say about that. I've

always been curious about this particular pain. The rest

of my pain is burning above and to the medial side

of the knee-cap and is probably

cartilage-related.<br><br>I'll let you know how I get on.<br><br>Joe

[Guest guest]

Joe:<br><br>Hauser makes alot of sense in his

books, doesn't he?<br><br>Let me present one scenario

which, I hope, is the case with you:<br><br>Some

ligament(s) or tendon(s) in your knee have been injured or

become damaged at some point in the past. This has led

to instability (or laxity) in your knee joint and

the pes anserinus pain you mention. That instability

is putting a tremendous amount of stress on the

tendons above and below your patella, as they pull to try

to keep your kneecap in place. This is where your

burning above and to the medial side of the knee cap is

coming from. If you can strengthen the ligaments and

tendons around the entire knee joint ( " tighten up " the

joint, to use my Doctor's nomenclature), you will unload

the stresses on the patella and your pain will go

away. This is, of course, a very rosy, best-case

scenario, but it may be what you're looking at, or

something along those lines. It may not be

cartilage-related at all. See my post #1821 on

Pseudoarthritis.<br><br>Remember, I was diagnosed twice with CP, and I don't

have

it and probably never did. I also had pain along the

bottom, top and medial side of the patella, mainly at the

medial femoral condyle.<br><br>I don't recall if you've

ever posted specifics about your knee problems. Have

you had a traumatic injury in the past? How is your

patellar alignment? Have you had an MRI?<br><br>You're

going to get better. I can feel it. You're doing all

the right things.<br><br>And as far as cartilage

repair goes, I don't know if it works for sure, but this

article (post #1699) is compelling:<br><br> " Doing Away

with... ARTHRITIS <br><br>An innovative procedure

involving<br>human growth hormone stimulates<br>cartilage growth and

joint

mobility " <br><br><a href=http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2000/may00-report2.html

target=new>http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2000/may00-report2.html</a><br><br>Thi\

s is only a magazine article, but it gives a good

overview the procedure. There are some references at the

bottom to medical journals.<br><br>Definitely keep me

posted on your progress.<br><br>- Doug

[Guest guest]

Hi Doug<br><br>Thanks for the support! I too

wonder if it might all be ligament-related in much the

same way as you suggested, but that is a rosy scenario

as you said!!!<br><br>My injury goes back 16 months

to several work-outs I did in the gym after a year

lay-off. I did heavy leg work (squats and leg extensions).

These had always been OK for me in the past, but this

time I noticed increased " crepitus "

(crunching/creaking) after the third work-out so I stopped! My doc was

unconcerned.<br><br>Pain started about two weeks later and for the next

5/6 months got steadily worse and worse.... until I

felt like I'd been in a car accident. Since then it's

been getting better but VERY VERY VERY

SLOWLY.<br><br>I've had X-rays, MRI and isotope bone scan and these

are all more-or-less normal for my age although I

finally got a good knee-specialist to take me seriously

and he admitted that there was probably some PF

cartilage damage (but I had to pressure him into this

statement).<br><br>Many of the pains have now got a lot better, but I'm

still left with burning along the top and medial edges

of the knee-caps. Curiously, like you it also seems

to be mainly located along the medial femoral

condyle - and if I rub this area with my fingers that

helps a lot. The other pain area is actually in the

ligaments and bone in the pes anserinus area as I

said.<br><br>I've read the LEF article already and am a little

skeptical - if this is such a wonder cure why hasn't

mainstream orthopaedics taken it up yet???!!! Still I'm

certainly not discounting it, I like the idea of using

growth factors to rebuild cartilage. You could ask the

question " why do we lose the ability to grow cartilage

when we get older.. it grows beautifully whilst we're

still very young!!! " so maybe there is a growth hormone

involved here which can help us... It's something I'll

discuss with my prolotherapist.<br><br>Sorry about the

long post guys, but the info might help others. I'll

keep you posted Doug...!<br><br>Joe

[Guest guest]

Joe:<br><br>This turning into our own private

chat room, isn't it? I hope we're not boring everyone

too much, but, if I may be so bold, this is all good

stuff.<br><br>Here's more of my pure theorizing:<br><br>1) You overdid

it with the leg workout and that caused your

original ligament/tendon injury. The crepitus increased

because your joint stability was compromised and the knee

wasn't moving properly. I noticed a definite decrease in

crepitus after my knee was tightened up.<br><br>2) Since

all your scans have turned up normal, I doubt you

have true PFS or CP.<br><br>3) Good news: my pain

along the medial femoral condyle would go away when I

massaged the area. The PT that works with my MD thought

that pain was caused by the attachment of the VMO to

the bone.<br><br>4) As far as being skeptical about

regrowing cartilage, I'm with you. However, the argument

that it can't work because it hasn't made it into

mainstream medicine doesn't work for me. C. Everett Koop

(former U.S. Surgeon General) successfully used

Prolotherapy for 20 years in his practice, and there are

hundreds of doctors in the U.S. alone successfully

practicing Prolotherapy. If you've read Dr. Hauser's book,

you've seen how successful it can be. Still,

Prolotherapy is not accepted, or even known about, in

mainstream medicine. My brother is a surgeon and had never

heard of Prolotherapy until I told him about

it.<br><br>5) As far as losing the ability to grow cartilage,

following is an excerpt from an article you posted (#1843)

a few days back from the Stone

Clinic:<br>---<br>The combination of the lack of blood supply and a few

cells distributed widely amongst a dense extracellular

matrix leads to a limited ability to heal. The usual

inflammatory response of hemorrhage, formation of fibrin clot,

cellular production and migration of mesenchymal cells is

absent. Other factors such as age, depth and degree of

damage, traumatic or chronic condition, associated

instability, previous total meniscectomy, malalignment, and

genetic predisposition are also factors affecting healing

of cartilage. Age affects healing in part because in

newborns, the multi-functioning mesenchymal stem cells

needed for healing account for 1 in every 10,000 cells

in bone marrow and reduces to 1 in 100,000 in teens,

1 in 400,000 by age 50 and 1 in 2 million in an 80

year old.<br>---<br><br>It certaily makes sense that

growth hormone would help counteract this decline with

aging. This is also where Prolotherapy comes in. It

stimulates the healing that SHOULD take place naturally, but

doesn't as we get older.<br><br>Alright Joe, that's it

for now. I've spent more time with you this weekend

than with my wife. <br><br>Take care,<br>Doug

[Guest guest]

lol...! I agree, let's give the others a chance!<br>Joe