Transparency essential in the vaccine debate - The Drum Opinion (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

[Guest guest]

Hi all,Looks like this issue is really hotting up. The phone is ringing off the hook here and many of the journos who are calling are not only supportive but a bit bemused by this controversy. After all, their jobs rely on free communication and they don't understand why someone would try and stop another person from speaking. I don't understand it either but I am wondering what those who oppose this talk have to gain if I don't speak? Below is an article written by Dr Rachie (just look up her 9 vaccination myths on the mamamia blog to see her information on this issue!) Her take on this issue of freedom is interesting. If you would like to comment, please feel free. My comment is below but I'm not sure if it will be moderated or not?Thanks,MerylFor those who are saying that the vaccines-autism debate ended in 1998 with Wakefield's supposedly now-discredited case series (and an hypothesis that has been confirmed by several independent researchers), you might be interested in this:http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20049118-10391695.htmlThe jury is not out on the connection between vaccines and autism and it is disingenuous to claim that it is based on a case series of 12 children. The rate of autism has increased from 1 child in 10,000 to 1 child in 38 (according to a recent study from South Korea) and doctors are assuring us that vaccines can't cause autism (even though they have never conducted a clinical trial to find this out) but they have no idea what DOES cause it.We need independent research into this very important issue and we need those who seem ready to defend the medical status quo against any threats to get behind us and start thinking more about the health of children then they apparently do about the health of their wallets and their reputations.The AVN believes that if parents were allowed to access all available information on vaccination - both that for its use and that against - they are very capable of making the correct choices for their families - whatever those choices may be.This is not a radical idea - it is a democratic idea. And anyone who tries to take that right away is not behaving in a manner that is consistent with the ideals upon which Australia was founded.Meryl DoreyAustralian Vaccination Network, Inc.

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15 December 2011

Transparency essential in the vaccine debate

61

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Dunlop

There's been a bit of a kerfuffle in the media of late regarding the warm and fuzzy Woodford Folk Festival and an anti-vaccine campaigner who is scheduled to speak.The issue was touched on briefly during Drum TV on Tuesday night and had the panellists bandying around the words "wrong", "fraud" and "stupid" with regard to the speaker.So what's all the fuss about? For a little bit of background, the Woodford Folk Festival is one of Australia's largest and most popular festivals with approximately 130,000 people attending over six days and six nights. On this year's speakers list is anti-vaccine lobbyist Meryl Dorey, spokesperson for the Northern NSW-based Australian Vaccination Network (AVN).So who are the AVN? The AVN are a self-declared vaccine safety watchdog, "pro-choice" campaigners and list amongst their aims, to "empower people everywhere to make informed health choices for their families and themselves".But if you now take a closer look at the "pro-choice" message of the AVN, what you'll find is something quite different.As did the NSW Health Care Complaints Commission who, in 2009, issued a public health warning about the AVN's website. Despite assertions from the AVN that they are "pro-choice", the commission concluded that their website "provides information that is solely anti-vaccination, contains information that is incorrect and misleading, (and) quotes selectively from research to suggest that vaccination may be dangerous".The AVN have also been accused of harassing the parents of a baby who died from whooping cough, going so far as to call the Director of North Coast Area Health Service demanding to know the details of the child's death. Dr Corben said:Ms Dorey called me on 12 March (2009) seeking details of your daughter's illness and death. Ms Dorey contended that I had misled the public in attributing your daughter's death to pertussis (whooping cough).Meryl Dorey has also said this about vaccines:There will come a time – I pray to God that it will happen in my lifetime – when those who have pushed vaccines upon innocent, helpless babies – doctors, pharmaceutical companies, government officials – will be proven to have lied and cheated these instruments of death into our children's bloodstream.Not very pro-choice, in my opinion.But Meryl Dorey insists she is not anti-vaccine, but "pro-choice". Let's consider why this might be.Looking at the current whooping cough epidemic, seven babies, many too young to be vaccinated, have lost their lives since 2008. This year, a suspected unimmunised 22-year-old died from diphtheria in Queensland. Measles, one of the most infectious of all communicable diseases, has recently reappeared with three children hospitalised in Canberra, yet Dorey describes measles as "benign" and a "gift from the Goddess". (To fully understand how questionable these people's ideas can be, see this book by another Australian anti-vaccine campaigner, called Marvellous Measles).So you can understand that the position of "don't vaccinate your kids" would probably not be embraced by parents or the media. The argument that has been circulating in favour of letting Dorey speak at the festival has been one of free speech. But this is not about free speech.Dorey is entitled to voice her opinions but not her own facts. And when a public health warning has been issued about her information, it is the responsibility of the festival organisers to make people aware that she is not an authority on vaccination, that her information has been deemed misleading and she does not support you getting your kids vaccinated.You could argue suppressing my right to yell "fire!" in a crowded cinema is also about free speech, but when people's safety is at risk, common sense must prevail.So far, it seems the Woodford Folk Festival are sticking to their guns on this one. Following a discussion with the festival executive director, Bill Hauritz, the news editor of Mamamia tweeted "he shouted, quoted Google and didn't care". One of the sponsors of the event, the Moreton Bay Council have issued a statement which says they do "not endorse the views of anti-vaccination campaigner Meryl Dorey..." and "Council is a committed supporter of the Immunise Australia Program..." Obviously, some see this as hypocrisy, with Tracey Spicer ending her reading of their statement on Radio 2UE with "liar, liar pants on fire!"But for me, the issue here is one of transparency. By all means let Meryl Dorey speak, let her spout her vaccine misinformation to the thousands, let her tell the crowd that vaccines cause autism (they don't). But make it clear to all who are listening that she has no science or medical qualifications, she is rabidly anti-vaccine and her information is the subject of a public health warning.That way, the audience at Woodford can "empower themselves to make informed health choices" – just like the AVN wants. Dunlop PhD is a campaigner for science-based medicine in Australia, with a special interest in refuting the claims of the anti-vaccination movement.EmailSharex del.icio.us Digg Kwoff StumbleUpon Facebook RedditPrint

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megalodons :

15 Dec 2011 10:56:59am

Thanks for writing this!

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Dr Mat :

15 Dec 2011 10:56:30am

I think we should make vaccination optional.However, those people who do NOT vaccinate their child should be required to pay in advance for the cost of:(a) their child getting sick,( their child acting as a disease vector and making other children sick.before starting school.I would estimate that a exemption fee of around $10000 - $20000 should cover these expenses.Before the howls of rage start, just realize that this is simply the "polluter pays" principle, applied to public health.

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Check :

15 Dec 2011 10:36:49am

This vaccination topic offers only extremes: "do it" or "don't do it". The simple situation is this:There are some babies who are more vulnerable to the impact of the "kiddie" vaccinations, They will have weak or immature immune systems or for some reason are more vulnerable to the dangers inherent provided by the weak toxins contained in the vaccine. These young tots would "react". Running along a scale of not so bad, to extremely bad reactions. Whilst other youngsters are tougher and their body systems are able to toss out the vaccine toxins from their body. What we need is not a bland demand for forcible vaccination for everyone, or the choice for non vaccination. What we DO require the ability to recognise and protect those babies who are most vulnerable to the stresses imposed by vaccination. We should find better ways to immunise these particular tots and protect them against the lethal diseases.Thus, and for other reasons as well, the one remedy (either way) - cannot be the best outcome

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The Counterculture :

15 Dec 2011 10:06:02am

It's amusing (in a hideous way) how the anti-vaccine nutters can present their ignorant and mendacious propaganda as 'advocacy' and 'protest against Big Pharma', as the 'little guy' against the 'big corporations', capitalising on the fad for 'alternative' medicines and 'natural' therapies.And that they find a ready audience for such inanities amongst the moonbats at the Woodford Folk Festival and similar venues.Gosh? I wonder where they learned to do all that?

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Transprency :

15 Dec 2011 9:53:29am

TransparencyThis is a bit mis-leading. What about transparency about ALL clinical trial results and not just the ones that the pharma companies decide to publish?What about vested interests? (not to say I am a fan of AVN, but they are just as bad as the sensationalist marketing of the vaccination companies via today tonight etc) I recently had to make a decision about vaccinating my own baby and I searched high and low for FACTUAL and statistical information both about efficacy of vaccinations and also their side-effects. I found very little... I also found a lot of people very pushy and un-accepting that I would require this information. In the end after a lot of research I could not find enough evidence that the health of my baby would be better off with the vaccine ENOUGH to outweigh the risk of potential side-effects (and no not autism... but there are many other documented FACTUAL side-effects - just check out how much US govt pays out in compensation).Overall misleading article on an emotive topic - it will get lots of comments (to which I am guilty), but adds nothing to the overall debate.

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Tamstermac :

15 Dec 2011 9:50:28am

I do not for the life of me understand how anyone can endorse injecting aluminium and mercury into an infant's veins. Imagine being the parent of a child who's been newly vaccinated, and losing that infant just hours later because of complications from the vaccine. My mother had the foresight not to vaccinate me, and I thank her for that. I had whooping cough as a child, and survived with no repercussions, due to the strong immune system that was built up by NOT being vaccinated. Nobody should have to bow down to government pressure when it comes to health issues.

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Plop :

15 Dec 2011 9:49:40am

Speaking of transparency, can you please indicate who your employer is and who else you receive funding from?Thanks.

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Mac :

15 Dec 2011 9:49:11am

I have an older sister who is close to spending her 50th year in a mental institution.When she was 5 ( & a perfectly happy & healthy child) my mother (who has now passed away) took her to be immunized.Within 2 days she started fitting & suffered brain damage. Within a couple of years despite every effort by my mother she was institutionalised.All the doctors at the time denied her condition was a result of the vaccinations.Could it have been an allergic reaction?Maybe the vaccination was corrupted in some way? My mother had no doubt it was the vaccinations. She made me promise never to vaccinate my kids - a promise I have kept.Corporate profit motive drives pharmaceutical companies to cut corners in the development of new drugs and doctors to over- prescribe medicines all the time, which really undermines public confidence in this field. (, you wouldn't be receiving any Big Drug money would you? You wouldn't be part of these companies spin?)Parents should rightly think twice before immunizing their kids. RM

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DSteel :

15 Dec 2011 9:44:25am

Anti vaccine hysteria is like being severely injured and not calling an ambulance in case the ambulance is involved in a motor vehicle accident on the way to hospital.Life is a gamble but death is a certainty,and anybody who sees a return to the days of epidemic death as a better outcome is a clear and present danger to mankind.

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Ted :

15 Dec 2011 9:40:09am

She's not a US Republican presidential contender is she?

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Nina :

15 Dec 2011 9:28:30am

thanks for the advertisement of this speaker at Woodford Folk Festival, I will be sure to buy a ticket today, so I can hear this woman speak

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Politically Incorrect :

15 Dec 2011 9:09:04am

Creationists claim free speech is being trampled on when creationism isn't taught in schools. Its like the Catholic Church saying "condoms don't work" and trying to pass it off as expert medical advise.They don't like the fact that people more interested in facts than propeganda is calling out the likes of Dorey on their BS.

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L :

15 Dec 2011 9:06:15am

Vaccines are the most successful public health measure ever discovered by humanity. They are directly responsible for the near eradication of whole groups of horrible diseases, particularly of children.Even so, it's ok to question their efficacy and their side affects, but that should be done by competent medical professionals rather than by people shouting "fire!" in a crowded room.

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Growler :

15 Dec 2011 9:06:03am

I have seen whooping cough affect older adults whose childhood immunisation has ceased to be effective. They get really sick for a long time (months). Here in Nimbin NSW, my GP was telling me that he has a serious problem with parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids. They want to enrol them in school, but need a 'consciencious objection' form signed off by a GP. This then leads to a disease pool in the community. I understand parents fears, but when ratbag anti-vaccination evangelists get air, that is bad for kids. Shame on Woodford Festival. I chose to have a pertussis booster shot a couple of years ago because of these idiots.

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Rosco :

15 Dec 2011 8:57:49am

She makes as much sense as the global warming scare, and with as much evidence.If her opinions had any veracity then why is it the misery of disease before vaccination has been largely eradicated.If the risks of adverse health effects are so dire why don't they show up in statistics ?I often wonder if a vaccination could be shown to prevent ageing and extend one's life would these people not join the queue ?

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bobtonnor :

15 Dec 2011 9:25:39am

I think you will find there is a vast amount of evidence to suggest that the global warming 'scare' is not a scare at all but very real. If you take a look i think you will find more real info on AGW than you will on the marvelous effects on kids lives of effective immunisation.

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rudy :

15 Dec 2011 10:03:59am

I'll bet the folk who run the Woodford Folk festival let Bolt or another climate change sceptic have the stage to present their views. Why let the whacky anti-immunisation people have a platform? Who else, believers in UFOs or One World Government conspiracy theorists?The organisers of music festivals should avoid letting their stages be used for political messages. I recall the Woodstock stage invasion many years ago by political activist Abbie Hoffman. Pete Townsend of The Who chased Hoffman off stage, whacking him on the arse with his guitar. That's how political polemicists at music festivals should be treated.I hope the Woodford crowd tells Dorey where to get off.

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NoelP123 :

15 Dec 2011 10:07:21am

While I agree with your assessment of the nonsense that the anti-vaccine lobby is peddling, your linkage to AGW is illogical and without credibility. AGW is in 'fact' proposed and supported by the 'vast' body of qualified and informed scientic opinion. It is in fact the rabid climate sceptics who parallel the anti-vaccine lobby by peddling opinions, without any agreed scientific basis, as fact ...

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no :

15 Dec 2011 10:32:19am

I see, so the illogical ravings of earth people can be discarded but the illogical ravings of right-wing denialists should be held up as beacons of reason. Sorry, the numbers of experts have it in both cases. I follow the experts until there is substantial PROOF (of the scientific not the miracle kind) to say otherwise.

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Are We There Yet :

15 Dec 2011 8:51:42am

I’m 58, I have had all the vaccines of that era, no side effects yet. My wife was vaccinated, my children and my grandchildren are vaccinated. Walk through the cemeteries and see how many people never made it passed their infancy in the 18th and 19th centuries also early 20th.Sadly though, if there was a problem the system would try to cover it up. While not vaccines, we have seen the effects of thalidomide. Fortunately my mother never took that. Also smoking and asbestos. The money makers fought hard to deny the there was a problem.

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2153 :

15 Dec 2011 9:52:04am

"Walk through the cemeteries and see how many people never made it passed their infancy in the 18th and 19th centuries also early 20th."You are exactly right about diseases being eliminated and the benefits that immunisation bring. I have read in a book about my one family history where it shows a newspaper cutting about ancestor of mine losing three children in one week to scarlet fever. When was the last time you heard of the disease or smallpox either? You should always question the motives, qualifications and experience of these looneys when they so actively campaign against the weight of evidence and opinion over the decades.

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anote :

15 Dec 2011 8:51:15am

Quoting Spicer seemingly, irresponsibly calling the council liars is not helpful.Otherwise, hear, hear.

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rossc :

15 Dec 2011 8:50:19am

Absolutely! But I wonder if there's similarity between AV campaigners, climate change denialists, and creationists. They're not less necessarily less intelligent or uneducated, though they could be. Trying to say they're simply wrong doesn't work. I suspect this is more to do with a psychology where they place more weight on experts whom they see as credible because they share their own values.

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m :

15 Dec 2011 9:12:39am

rossc you are spot on with your last sentence, that sums it all up for me thanks for that

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007 :

15 Dec 2011 9:19:27am

The trouble is that these people can spout a whole load of pseudoscience presented as fact but when provided with any evidence to the contrary firmly stick their fingers in their ears and say "La la la I can't hear you". A true expert may be passionate about their views but when presented with enough solid evidence against their ideas will reexamine their belief.

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tester :

15 Dec 2011 10:03:00am

Notice how they all use the word "God"? That's the most obvious similarity.

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genfie :

15 Dec 2011 10:29:33am

I've always thought so and I find the similarities between them both disturbing and fascinating. In the case of vaccines, the research suggesting a link between autism and the MMR was faked by a researcher who had patented single versions of the vaccine and was trying to scare parents into using his patented vaccine instead. His "research" has been exposed as fraud (he didn't just fiddle his results, he completely made up his test subjects) but anti-vac campaigners still trot him out as some sort of Galileo bravely fighting against the evil Big Pharma.Why would people believe a fraud over the entire body of scientific evidence so far? Well, now we're onto climate change where people believe a combination of a self-aggrandising geologist, a faux Lord and the fraudulent discredited "research" of the oil companies over the body of scientific evidence built up over the last 150 years.The author hit the nail on the head when she said that people are "entitled to voice their opinions but not their own facts". If this activist was delivering a speech entitled "gravity: the biggest lie since thermodynamics", would she be ushered onstage? Her position is just as ridiculous.

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no :

15 Dec 2011 10:36:50am

Yes there is. They are all anti-science and would rather follow their 'intuition' (for which read self-serving dogma) than the overwhelmingly in agreement results of countless experiments and observations over extended periods of time.

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dd :

15 Dec 2011 8:48:31am

Yes, it strikes me as terribly irresponsible, if not dangerous, to the rest of the society in which we all live to be advocating this stuff.

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Kate Hunter :

15 Dec 2011 8:46:13am

Interesting to note the debate has become about 'free speech' not vaccination. My beef too is with Meryl Dorey being billed as an expert and an authority on autism and the MMR vaccination. To me this is false and misleading advertising. Woodford is not a rally or a website. People buy tickets and are entitled to get what they pay for.

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Cyndi O'Meara :

15 Dec 2011 8:43:55am

Just because someone does not have a degree, does not mean they are stupid or can't read scientific literature, or can't obtain knowledge far superior then a degree. It infuriates me when the almighty science world frowns on people without degrees - I have a degree and spent 6 years at university but the vast amount of my knowledge has come after. Institutionalised degrees sometimes give a very narrow view of the world. I'm looking forward to seeing Meryl Dorey at the WFF, she always inspires and enlightens the enquiring mind.

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seajae :

15 Dec 2011 9:04:32am

I agree, people can know a lot without degrees but in this case it is more about simply twisting the truth and lying to the people to make your views look valid. There is a vast difference between having knowledge that is fact and telling porkies, meryl is simply a rabib hater if immunisation, she should not be allowed to lie to people especially large crowd, this smacks of organizers sympathetic to the avn and not prepared to do the right thing, even your comment shows that you are already a supporter of them, maybe when your kids start to die from preventable diseases you might have second thoughts.

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hugh mungus :

15 Dec 2011 9:19:51am

"Just because someone does not have a degree, does not mean they are stupid or can't read scientific literature,"Theoretically true, but most people would have great difficulty understanding articles in scholarly scientific journals. If you have no idea of the existing literature how can you put the articles in context? If you don't understand statistics how can you comment on the study design, methods and interpretation of results? Surely in this instance 'almighty science' is questioning someone not only because they don't have a degree, but also because their advocacy goes against a very substantial body of controlled research that has proven immunisation to be highly effective at preventing disease and death?

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Gaz :

15 Dec 2011 9:32:22am

I don't think this article is condescending for one moment to those community members that do not have a degree. In fact University education advocastes quite strongly for the "student" to seek out knowledge/opinion from all sources. Dorey is unreliable and selective in the information she delivers, she is certainly no advocate for "pro choice". I implore you to use your "enquiring mind" to sift fact from fiction.....it is not that hard.

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jeremaihjj :

15 Dec 2011 9:43:25am

I can't really tell if your anti vaccination or pro listenning criticlly to nutcases. If its the latter, I applaud you, I think you get to learn a lot from criticlly listening to differing viewpoints, even if they are ridiculous.But I doubt it is, anyone who writes that they have a degree and then says someone with no expertise can be an expert I suspect has a degree in art history or a degree 'life'.People who are anti vaccination are quite simply foolish, it would be funny if children weren't dying from totally preventable illnesses.

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Pancake :

15 Dec 2011 10:03:50am

But do you have a _science_ degree? Having a science degree means you've at least gone through the basics of understanding the scientific process that has, let's face it, brought us the amazing technologies and insights into the way nature works. Obviously this wouldn't be the case if you've studied, say, law, philosophy, accountancy etc

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rudy :

15 Dec 2011 10:05:21am

In principle you may be right, but as it applies to this case of Ms Dorey, you're wrong.

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JordanT :

15 Dec 2011 10:26:39am

"Institutionalised degrees sometimes give a very narrow view of the world"Science is not an opinion.

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Mitor the Bold :

15 Dec 2011 10:51:16am

The 'almighty science world' has created modern medicine as we know it and has extended life expectancy twofold in the last 100 years or so, eradicated smallpox and largely controlled many formerly devastating diseases - like measles and so on which cause enormous suffering and death when allowed to develop to epidemic levels - and has largely built the world we live in today.Contrast this with the deliberate misinformation peddled by this woman as a symptom of some kind of chronic psychosis which encourages some mothers to expose their children to easily-avoided diseases. Anyone who invited this woman to speak - outside of a convention of psychiatrists - is merely perpetuating her problem with reality. At least if you invited a witch to speak people would kinda know it's tongue-in-cheek whereas this women brings with her a dangerous air of credibility.

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Moi :

15 Dec 2011 8:42:46am

I am all from free speech, but this is a challenging issue.The campaign of AVN is grossly irresponsible and it does sound like pretty poor judgement from the Woodford organisers.As the author says transparency is key. And transparency is something AVN does not relish.Perhaps rather than letting Ms Dorey freely spread her message, there should be a forum which allows real experts and the public to metaphorically tear her to shreds.If that doesn't happen, I wouldn't want to be a Woodford organiser. If someone was adversely influenced and a child died, I wouldn't want it on my conscience.

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Jeff :

15 Dec 2011 8:33:40am

Hear bloody hear. This is not about free speech, and for people to couch it in those terms is misleading and wrong.This woman, the movement she heads and the principles she espouses all pose a threat to public health.

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rusty :

15 Dec 2011 9:01:20am

Yes, take the witch and burn her! And her followers! and all those people who espouse any form of natural, alternative or complementary medicine, in fact, anyone who doesn't agree with those who trot out the term "science-based" at the drop of a hat to give their own claims and opinions some veneer of authority. It's a folk festival, for pity's sake, not a serious medical seminar or even parents and teachers meeting. Why don't you, and this climb on your hobby horses and gallop off - no doubt to accuse some old lady somewhere of casting evil spells on her neighbours.

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BC :

15 Dec 2011 9:24:11am

I'm not sure you understand what 'science-based' means.

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Baska :

15 Dec 2011 9:25:49am

Yep, it's a folk festival. So give her a little booth amongst the crystal healers, the tarot readers the aromatherapy peddlers and all the rest. Don't stick her up on a stage and give her an implied stamp of approval.

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JoeBloggs :

15 Dec 2011 9:29:06am

Yet by giving this foolish person a platform to spout her lies she will influence some of the 130,000 attendees of the festival to not immunise their children from deadly preventable diseases which will assist in allowing the preventable diseases to survive in the human 'herd' and cause the death of innocent children.There is nothing 'complimentary' about not vaccinating against entirely preventable diseases that kill innocent children.Just a tiny touch of common sense will let you realise that.

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maxine :

15 Dec 2011 9:34:40am

Having lived next door to a family with kids who got Whooping Cough ( not immunised)I find such action highly irresponsible, cruel.I hope the Woodford Festival organisers give an alternative speaker the space to have a say.

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macca :

15 Dec 2011 9:35:48am

rusty - even hippies at a Folk Festival deserve to hear both sides.

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Jeff :

15 Dec 2011 9:45:17am

Antivaccination movements do pose a public health risk. This is demonstrable; it's not opinion, but measurable.Your response is to mischaracterise what I said to be a rant against unscientific medicine. Where did I mention that?Is this what passes for intellectual rigour up your way?

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Redfella :

15 Dec 2011 9:56:49am

The AVN were breaking main stream media not too long ago. It was primarily the work of the Australian Skeptics Society that got them exposed for not only being an anti vacs group (rather than "pro choice") but also ripping off money by being registered as a charity, thereby avoiding tax.I'm all for free speech but once bitten twice shy???

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powdered toastman :

15 Dec 2011 9:57:20am

"Its a folk festival for pity's sake"Exactly! wtf is she doing spouting her rubbish there anyway? Now perhaps if she could put 3 chords and a harmonica solo behind it...The middle class alternative lifestylers seem to have a bit of pull up in Qld, I mean we only got fluoride in Brisbane's water supply a few years ago because there was so much opposition from the "fluoride is a poison" mob (easy to spot on account of their gappy smiles and magic happens bumper stickers).

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2153 :

15 Dec 2011 9:57:58am

Rusty, You are yourself an example of shooting the messenger. Do you agree that it is the responsible thing to argue against misinformation or not? This topic is literally discussing matters of life or death. Give me some examples of proven "natural, alternative or complementary medicine" for dealing with measles, rubella, whooping cough, tetanus, smallpox (How was that eradicated, hey?) chicken pox, mumps or all the other diseases.

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Brett :

15 Dec 2011 10:01:18am

It is only a folk festival, but if impressionable people hear her nonsense, believe it and either don't immunise their own children or persuade others not to do so, will the potentially catastrophic results of that decision not matter either? is not suggesting this dingbat should not speak, only that her misinformation should be countered.

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tobias :

15 Dec 2011 10:03:06am

Seems to have touched a nerve with rusty. It's OK for those who don't use their reason and logic to climb on their hobby horses but try to refute their beliefs and lots of name calling ensues. What about those who trot out "natural, alternative or complementary" at the drop of a hat? It doesn't matter if they don't work but it makes a difference if they cause harm.

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Miss Bug :

15 Dec 2011 10:05:44am

Ah yes scientifically prven medicine must have no place at the table.And of course it's a Folk Festival. Do you honestly think the scientific community would debase itself to argue with such a woman? She is a danger who isnt worth the time it takes to disprove (with scientifically tested truths) that what she supports is a danger to society.

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karen :

15 Dec 2011 10:07:32am

This is not about 'natural' or 'alternative' medicine, and it doesn't matter whether it's a seminar or a folk festival. The question is, are we a society who bases decisions on science or not? Although science is based on hypotheses, and what we take as 'true' does change when the evidence changes, as a general rule our society has benefited from the advances that society has provided. To abandon science is to embrace superstition - a backward step.

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Urien Rakarth :

15 Dec 2011 10:10:49am

You really missed the point of the article, didn't you?"It's a folk festival, for pity's sake, not a serious medical seminar or even parents and teachers meeting."So, as long as it's a folf festival it's okay to disseminate lies?

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Gordon :

15 Dec 2011 10:28:40am

Yes, it is a folk music festival. Why are they inviting axe-grinders of any sort to speak. If 600,000 music fans actually want to sit through this then OK, but I hope they know what they paid for when they bought the ticket.

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Alienation :

15 Dec 2011 10:29:15am

Because it is not just the lives of the un-immunized children being put at risk. Having a growing pool of un-immunized in the community creates a vector for these illnesses. Some countries like Canada give all parents the choice: but your child CANNOT attend public school if you refuse to immunize them. We forget how terrible these childhood diseases were and how many of our children did not survive infancy because of them. Your choice should not put the rest of us at risk. And if indeed she is a follower of Icke this should be revealed!

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:

15 Dec 2011 10:34:58am

So, you don't think we should have sound scientific research as the fundamental base for medical treatments? Awesome. I have a marvellous remedy here, it cures the cold, influenza, gout, hepatitis and indigestion...

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Mitor the Bold :

15 Dec 2011 10:44:19am

Alternative medicine is what you use if you want the alternative to health: ill-health. If alternative medicine worked it wouldn't be called alternative; it'd simply be medicine.So, you're OK with having people tell unsubstantiated lies based on nothing but fear which has the effect on some people of causing them to avoid vaccination and therefore to expose their children - and wider society - to easily-avoided diseases.Would you be so forgiving if she was lecturing on the joys of narcotics? I mean, it's only a folk festival after all and everyone's entitled to their opinion. The war on narcotics is a government conspiracy, you know, to keep you sober and compliant.

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Gallagher :

15 Dec 2011 10:39:03am

I found the comments of Joe Stella, editor of The Daily Grind (The Drum December 13th, 2011) on this topic markedly reckless.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=506fk1kskuoMr. Stella exhibits a poor appreciation of the dynamics pertaining to the HCCC request that Ms. Dorey place a notice revealing her anti-vaccination position on her website. The AVN qualifies as a health service in NSW and is thus subject to the HCCC mandate. This qualification as a health service has been established in the NSW Supreme Court during the AVN appeal against the HCCC decision. This was conceded in court by Ms. Dorey herself on July 28th, 2011.The TGA's Complaints Resolution Panel investigates breaches of the Therapeutic Goods advertising code and when complaints are upheld, requests for notices to be published on the offending site. Is this also a matter of "tenor" that we should "find really unsettling in a democratic society"?The HCCC decision was backed by ’s Chief Health Officer Dr. Carnie, speaking on ABC’s The World Today, July 13th, 2010.Furthermore, in revoking the AVN's Charitable Fundraising Licence (October 20th, 2010), the NSW Office of Liquor Gaming and Racing acknowledged the HCCC decision and Ms. Dorey's refusal to comply. In doing so they found that consumers may be misled into making donations, or purchasing membership "in good faith".The import of this decision is reinforced by the fact that the OLGR found 23 breaches of the Charitable Fundraising Act 1991, following a 2010 audit of The Australian Vaccination Network.In view of the above it is axiomatic that the AVN present a cleverly deceptive face to the Australian public, creating the illusion of authority and authenticity on the topic of vaccination. It is further clear that this poses a genuine risk in exploiting trust to the detriment of Australians.Australians have a right to expect our health regulators will act when culpable individuals and organisations exploit laxity in existing legislation, for their own ideological or financial benefit, with no regard for the consequences of their actions.Ms. Dorey's right to speak freely has never been a factor. It is her refusal to comply with authority that concerns critics. Recently, on December 9th, Ms. Dorey again misled "new members" regarding the HCCC mandate. She wrote fallaciously:"The HCCC does not have the authority to recommend that the AVN put this or any other statement on its website."If Ms. Dorey cannot accept the "tenor" of the NSW Supreme Court, then defending her as a matter of democratic integrity is quite ambitious.

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