Re: So many questions about Vaccination!!

[Guest guest]

" Make a long story short, it bothers me that i dont really know ALL the answers to all those questions my friends raise. I'm not a doctor, i cant throw out statistics (or remember them!) and even if i dont argue and just stay mum, at least i should feel in my heart, when someone throws out the " herd immunity " issue - that i know the answer. "

 

I don't have all the answers either but I know natural immunity works; I use the example that when a child gets chickenpox, a chickenpox party is scheduled so all the kids get it at the same time and get it over with early.  I am not saying you have to contract the disease to build immunity to it, but I use this as an example.... and now they have a chicken pox vaccine for crying out loud!  Why?  It's all about money for one; and brainwashing for another.  Using the chicken pox vaccine as an example; there are more damaging ingredients in a vaccine that are way worse than contracting chicken pox; so why did they create a vaccine???

 

Look up the ingredients to vaccines in general.  I have many links on my web site below to references supporting why vaccines are a crock. " (also - a woman in my neighborhood, her son recently had Lukemia. Hes better now thank G-d, but she told me that she had to make sure that EVERY kid in the school or class was vaccinated or else he could die or something....how could i ever possibly respond to that? ) "

 

You could use the argument that vaccines contain the killed virus of the disease so what is actually happening when the whole classroom gets vaccinated, her son had a better chance of catching the disease from vaccinated students than he did from a child contracting the disease and spreading it to him.  It accomplished the opposite in otherwords.

-- Tina Berry - MTKriegshund German ShepherdsWorking Lines ~ Naturally Rearedwww.kriegshundgsds.com

[Guest guest]

I know how you feel. I'm the same, only I have too much info so it's hard to sort through in an instant to fit the comments made. So, I find it helps to throw the question back at them, make them think:

"How does a vaccinated kid get sick from anyone? Are you saying vaccines don't work?" The usual response is not always so just repond back "then why take the risks?" or "so then they might not work for the child you're asking to be your back up so how would that end up protecting other children?" Just keep asking questions. This way they're really arguing with themselves and you're just the moderator.

Herd immunity is a tough one to dispute to someone who very likely has never looked it up and is taking it on faith. Maybe say "actually, herd immunity means that NOT all people have to be vaccinated, just a certain percentage. So, it really doesn't matter if everyone is vaccinated." Or "if vaccines are so benign, what's the harm is continuing them just to be on the safe side? I mean, since you think they're so safe? What do you have to lose?"

Kids die if they don't get vaccines? That's easy: "kids die FROM vaccines. Have you ever looked up the VAERS reports?" Suggest they do it sometime to see the damage inflicted on children from vaccines. AND I would add that if that was true, there wouldn't be any unvaccinated children!!

Benefits outweigh the risks. Hoo-boy, one of my favorites. It's so absurd because they're lumping all vaccines for all diseases together when, in fact, all vaccines have different effectiveness rates and side effects and all diseases have their own degrees of severity. Not to mention everyone comes with their own health history. So, you can say "you believe that, even though some diseases are milder than others, and some vaccines are more dangerous than others? Which vaccines are you talking about in particular?" Make them get specific.

You think YOU don't have comebacks? They don't either, past the usual blah, blah, blah.

How can you help your husband see the light? Tough one. I think I just wore my family down by constantly pointing out things on the news, the alarmist reports and facts they get wrong, or showing my kids articles online, so eventually they came to trust me.

Winnie

Message -----From: Deborah Date: Thursday, December 15, 2011 2:37 pmSubject: So many questions about Vaccination!!Vaccinations > hi everyone,> since i dont have kids (yet) i never had the need to fully > research the topic of Vaccines. I follow this thread loosely and > occasionally i'll comment on what i've learned from experience > etc. > > Heres the thing. Every once in a while, the topic comes up > either among family or friends , and while i fully believe in > natural and non-vaccinations,(i was never vaccinated as a kid), > i feel that these conversations end up leaving me feel > uneducated. Someone will throw out statements like: (for > example) > > "non-vax kids cause other kids to get sick"> "herd immunity - if all kids are Vaxed then the disease is gone > etc." > "kids DIE if they dont get vaccines - from other childhood > illnesses" > "the benefits outweigh the risks" > > not only that, but my husband is on the fence as well. > Thankfully hes come along way (thanks to me about natural > living, but hes not fully convinced that Vaccines are safe, OR > unsafe. He knows there are side effects and he sees that kids DO > get messed up, but because of things like polio etc... he doesnt > think they're THAT terrible and they do help.... > > Make a long story short, it bothers me that i dont really know > ALL the answers to all those questions my friends raise. I'm not > a doctor, i cant throw out statistics (or remember them!) and > even if i dont argue and just stay mum, at least i should feel > in my heart, when someone throws out the "herd immunity" issue - > that i know the answer. > > (also - a woman in my neighborhood, her son recently had > Lukemia. Hes better now thank G-d, but she told me that she had > to make sure that EVERY kid in the school or class was > vaccinated or else he could die or something....how could i ever > possibly respond to that? ) > > Anyways, where do i begin? Or where do i continue > And how can i help my husband see the light .... > > thanks so much !!!!! > > deb > >

[Guest guest]

I should clarify why this is related to the herd immunity comment"

"if vaccines are so benign, what's the harm is continuing them just to be on the safe side? I mean, since you think they're so safe? What do you have to lose?"

I was looking at this that if diseases were gone, no more need for vaccines. You know, as if the non-vaxers should just get with it so we ALL can be free of disease and the need to vaccinate.

Winnie So many questions about Vaccination!!> Vaccinations > > > hi everyone,> > since i dont have kids (yet) i never had the need to fully > > research the topic of Vaccines. I follow this thread loosely > and > > occasionally i'll comment on what i've learned from experience > > etc. > > > > Heres the thing. Every once in a while, the topic comes up > > either among family or friends , and while i fully believe in > > natural and non-vaccinations,(i was never vaccinated as a > kid), > > i feel that these conversations end up leaving me feel > > uneducated. Someone will throw out statements like: (for > > example) > > > > "non-vax kids cause other kids to get sick"> > "herd immunity - if all kids are Vaxed then the disease is > gone > > etc." > > "kids DIE if they dont get vaccines - from other childhood > > illnesses" > > "the benefits outweigh the risks" > > > > not only that, but my husband is on the fence as well. > > Thankfully hes come along way (thanks to me about natural > > living, but hes not fully convinced that Vaccines are safe, OR > > unsafe. He knows there are side effects and he sees that kids > DO > > get messed up, but because of things like polio etc... he > doesnt > > think they're THAT terrible and they do help.... > > > > Make a long story short, it bothers me that i dont really know > > ALL the answers to all those questions my friends raise. I'm > not > > a doctor, i cant throw out statistics (or remember them!) and > > even if i dont argue and just stay mum, at least i should feel > > in my heart, when someone throws out the "herd immunity" issue > - > > that i know the answer. > > > > (also - a woman in my neighborhood, her son recently had > > Lukemia. Hes better now thank G-d, but she told me that she > had > > to make sure that EVERY kid in the school or class was > > vaccinated or else he could die or something....how could i > ever > > possibly respond to that? ) > > > > Anyways, where do i begin? Or where do i continue > > And how can i help my husband see the light .... > > > > thanks so much !!!!! > > > > deb > > > > >

[Guest guest]

The herd immunity theory was about natural disease, not vaccination, and they highjacked it to promote vaccines. These pages might

help:http://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/The-Herd-Immunity-Theory-Treating-Our-Children-Like-Cattlehttp://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/Killer-Measles-Vaccine-Is-Withdrawn-And-Other-Vaccine-Death-Caseshttp://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/Pro-Vaccine-Argumentshttp://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/Pro-Vaccine-Arguments-Page-2http://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/Vaccine-Sheddinghttp://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/Infant-Mortality-Rates-Fall-Where-Immunisation-Rates-Are-Lowhttp://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/Diseases-In-The-Vaccinatedhttp://www.vaccineriskawareness.

com/Diseases-In-The-Vaccinated-Page-2http://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/Diseases-in-the-Vaccinated-Page-3Joanna. From: "wharrison@..." <wharrison@...> Vaccinations Sent: Thursday, 15 December 2011, 21:33 Subject: Re: So many questions about Vaccination!!

I know how you feel. I'm the same, only I have too much info so it's hard to sort through in an instant to fit the comments made. So, I find it helps to throw the question back at them, make them think:

"How does a vaccinated kid get sick from anyone? Are you saying vaccines don't work?" The usual response is not always so just repond back "then why take the risks?" or "so then they might not work for the child you're asking to be your back up so how would that end up protecting other children?" Just keep asking questions. This way they're really arguing with themselves and you're just the moderator.

Herd immunity is a tough one to dispute to someone who very likely has never looked it up and is taking it on faith. Maybe say "actually, herd immunity means that NOT all people have to be vaccinated, just a certain percentage. So, it really doesn't matter if everyone is vaccinated." Or "if vaccines are so benign, what's the harm is continuing them just to be on the safe side? I mean, since you think they're so safe? What do you have to lose?"

Kids die if they don't get vaccines? That's easy: "kids die FROM vaccines. Have you ever looked up the VAERS reports?" Suggest they do it sometime to see the damage inflicted on children from vaccines. AND I would add that if that was true, there wouldn't be any unvaccinated children!!

Benefits outweigh the risks. Hoo-boy, one of my favorites. It's so absurd because they're lumping all vaccines for all diseases together when, in fact, all vaccines have different effectiveness rates and side effects and all diseases have their own degrees of severity. Not to mention everyone comes with their own health history. So, you can say "you believe that, even though some diseases are milder than others, and some vaccines are more dangerous than others? Which vaccines are you talking about in particular?" Make them get specific.

You think YOU don't have comebacks? They don't either, past the usual blah, blah, blah.

How can you help your husband see the light? Tough one. I think I just wore my family down by constantly pointing out things on the news, the alarmist reports and facts they get wrong, or showing my kids articles online, so eventually they came to trust me.

Winnie

Message -----From: Deborah Date: Thursday, December 15, 2011 2:37 pmSubject: So many questions about Vaccination!!Vaccinations > hi everyone,> since i dont have kids (yet) i never had the need to fully > research the topic of Vaccines. I follow this thread loosely and > occasionally i'll comment on what i've learned from experience > etc. > > Heres the thing. Every once in a while, the topic comes up > either among family or friends , and while i fully believe in > natural and non-vaccinations,(i was never vaccinated as a kid), > i feel that these conversations end up leaving me feel > uneducated. Someone will throw out statements like: (for > example) > > "non-vax kids cause other kids to get sick"> "herd immunity - if all kids are Vaxed then the disease is gone > etc." >

"kids DIE if they dont get vaccines - from other childhood > illnesses" > "the benefits outweigh the risks" > > not only that, but my husband is on the fence as well. > Thankfully hes come along way (thanks to me about natural > living, but hes not fully convinced that Vaccines are safe, OR > unsafe. He knows there are side effects and he sees that kids DO > get messed up, but because of things like polio etc... he doesnt > think they're THAT terrible and they do help.... > > Make a long story short, it bothers me that i dont really know > ALL the answers to all those questions my friends raise. I'm not > a doctor, i cant throw out statistics (or remember them!) and > even if i dont argue and just stay mum, at least i should feel > in my heart, when someone throws out the "herd immunity" issue - > that i know the answer. > >

(also - a woman in my neighborhood, her son recently had > Lukemia. Hes better now thank G-d, but she told me that she had > to make sure that EVERY kid in the school or class was > vaccinated or else he could die or something....how could i ever > possibly respond to that? ) > > Anyways, where do i begin? Or where do i continue > And how can i help my husband see the light .... > > thanks so much !!!!! > > deb > >

[Guest guest]

Oh, this is good reading. Thanks, Joanna! I like this from the first link:

"If 68% of the population were allowed to build their own natural defences, there would be no raging epidemic." So, vaccination is actually anti-herd immunity because it interferes with the process.

Winnie So many questions about Vaccination!!> Vaccinations > > > hi everyone,> > since i dont have kids (yet) i never had the need to fully > > research the topic of Vaccines. I follow this thread loosely > and > > occasionally i'll comment on what i've learned from experience > > etc. > > > > Heres the thing. Every once in a while, the topic comes up > > either among family or friends , and while i fully believe in > > natural and non-vaccinations,(i was never vaccinated as a > kid), > > i feel that these conversations end up leaving me feel > > uneducated. Someone will throw out statements like: (for > > example) > > > > "non-vax kids cause other kids to get sick"> > "herd immunity - if all kids are Vaxed then the disease is > gone > > etc." > > "kids DIE if they dont get vaccines - from other childhood > > illnesses" > > "the benefits outweigh the risks" > > > > not only that, but my husband is on the fence as well. > > Thankfully hes come along way (thanks to me about natural > > living, but hes not fully convinced that Vaccines are safe, OR > > unsafe. He knows there are side effects and he sees that kids > DO > > get messed up, but because of things like polio etc... he > doesnt > > think they're THAT terrible and they do help.... > > > > Make a long story short, it bothers me that i dont really know > > ALL the answers to all those questions my friends raise. I'm > not > > a doctor, i cant throw out statistics (or remember them!) and > > even if i dont argue and just stay mum, at least i should feel > > in my heart, when someone throws out the "herd immunity" issue > - > > that i know the answer. > > > > (also - a woman in my neighborhood, her son recently had > > Lukemia. Hes better now thank G-d, but she told me that she > had > > to make sure that EVERY kid in the school or class was > > vaccinated or else he could die or something....how could i > ever > > possibly respond to that? ) > > > > Anyways, where do i begin? Or where do i continue > > And how can i help my husband see the light .... > > > > thanks so much !!!!! > > > > deb > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Tina,thanks for your reply !!! i'm happy to know you also feel you dont have all the right retorts. I remember my mother made sure both my brother and i got chicken pox together to be over and done with.... 

I just want to make sure i understand. When you were referring to CHicken Pox - youre saying that once you get it, you (the kid) is stronger, and can never get it again cuz tehy have immunity? so in the long run Chicken pox is NOT a bad thing? (is that what you mean?) 

 And with the mom whos son was sick (PS - my friend told me he did the same thing. His preschool aged son is healthy, but he made sure that the shcools policy ONLY allowed vaccinated children in teh preschool) So what youre saying is that since the vaccinated kids in the school have the ACTUAL virus in their bodies ... so theres actually a bigger chance for the child to contract the illness? 

 Thanks Tina !!! (sorry if i sounded silly, i just want to make sure i understood... this can get very confusing  deb  

[Guest guest]

Hi Winnie,Thanks for your reply as well.... you are BRILLIANT when it comes to Vaccines.. you seem to know all your facts down PAT !!! Do you even get into any arguements with people anymore ?  I'm really LOVING your idea of " throwing the questions back " .... this one woman i know really upsets me when she goes into her rants about how people who dont vaccinate are " selfish " and " neglectful " and " irresponsible " .. i mean come on, its not like we're abusive parents !!!!so that really upsets me. I do like the idea of changing the conversation that instead of giving answers, we're making  THEM answer their own questions... (is that what you mean?) 

Questions that i should reply would be: 

" why is it that Vaccinated kids get the illnesses they were protected from? ... this means they dont always work? " (ummm thats where Herd Immunity comes in... i'll have to look up those links posted) 

 What do you mean Winnie when you said " If Vaccines are so benign, whats the harm in conituning them? " (since people think the'yre safe... how do you mean " continue them " as in booster shots?) 

 I never heard of VAERS reports.... i'll google it   I would say 90% of my freinds who are parents (i'm 29 so most of my freinds have like 1-3 kids - still new, researching etc.) they ALL have said something along the lines of " benefits outweigh the risks... i've done the research. My doc says he's seen kids die but never any serious conditions from Vaccines etc "  

Intersting point that ALL vaccines comes with differnt effectiveness and side effects --- so REALLY we (and we as in argumentor/ argumentee should discuss one at a time... like Flu Vaccine was just written up that the claims for effectiveness are NOT true....etc) On the flip side every illness effects people differently because of health history.... (yes i'm repeating what youre saying, i just need to clarify to make sure i understand ... hope you forgive) 

SO my friends who say the benefits outweigh the risks - are BASICALLY saying that tehre ARE risks. So which ones have risks, and what kind of risks ??? ( i like that) 

 Winnie, my favorite line of your email ---- " You think You dont have combacks? They dont either " -- ha !!!! youre adorable  AS for my hubby, hes come a LOOOONG way. His family never heard of an herb or vitamin in their life, and my husbands first introduction to natural living was joining me (as my boyfriend) to a visit at the Kinesiologit/chiropractor. He freaked out when she muscle tested me .... so i think we'll get there, i just think he needs to feel more confident ... and i'll assume that at some point we'll recieve a lot of flack from family members, so he'll need to know how to respond .... and know hes doing the right thing for his kids. 

 Thanks again Winnie !!! (are you writing a book of all the information you know ?  

[Guest guest]

oh oh, this was something i didnt understand .... so If Vaccines work 100% then no more illnesses... if no more illnesses then no more need for new generation kids to get them. (is this what you meant?) 

COuld someone then claim that its because of Unvaccinated kids that hte illnesses are still popping up? Such as the MAJOR measles epidemic or Whooping Cough in CA recently ? 

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 4:38 PM, <wharrison@...> wrote:

 

I should clarify why this is related to the herd immunity comment "

 

  " if vaccines are so benign, what's the harm is continuing them just to be on the safe side? I mean, since you think they're so safe? What do you have to lose? "  

 

I was looking at this that if diseases were gone, no more need for vaccines. You know, as if the non-vaxers should just get with it so we ALL can be free of disease and the need to vaccinate.

 

Winnie So many questions about Vaccination!!

> Vaccinations > > > hi everyone,> > since i dont have kids (yet) i never had the need to fully > > research the topic of Vaccines. I follow this thread loosely

> and > > occasionally i'll comment on what i've learned from experience > > etc. > > > > Heres the thing. Every once in a while, the topic comes up > > either among family or friends , and while i fully believe in

> > natural and non-vaccinations,(i was never vaccinated as a > kid), > > i feel that these conversations end up leaving me feel > > uneducated. Someone will throw out statements like: (for

> > example) > > > > " non-vax kids cause other kids to get sick " > > " herd immunity - if all kids are Vaxed then the disease is > gone > > etc. "

> > " kids DIE if they dont get vaccines - from other childhood > > illnesses " > > " the benefits outweigh the risks " > > > > not only that, but my husband is on the fence as well.

> > Thankfully hes come along way (thanks to me about natural > > living, but hes not fully convinced that Vaccines are safe, OR > > unsafe. He knows there are side effects and he sees that kids

> DO > > get messed up, but because of things like polio etc... he > doesnt > > think they're THAT terrible and they do help.... > > > > Make a long story short, it bothers me that i dont really know

> > ALL the answers to all those questions my friends raise. I'm > not > > a doctor, i cant throw out statistics (or remember them!) and > > even if i dont argue and just stay mum, at least i should feel

> > in my heart, when someone throws out the " herd immunity " issue > - > > that i know the answer. > > > > (also - a woman in my neighborhood, her son recently had

> > Lukemia. Hes better now thank G-d, but she told me that she > had > > to make sure that EVERY kid in the school or class was > > vaccinated or else he could die or something....how could i

> ever > > possibly respond to that? ) > > > > Anyways, where do i begin? Or where do i continue > > And how can i help my husband see the light .... > > > > thanks so much !!!!!

> > > > deb > > > > >

[Guest guest]

wow Joanna,this is intense reading !!!!! thank you for these links, i will be studying them. How do you keep track of all this information ? Do you often " brush up " on the statistics ? It feels a bit overwhelming. So much to take in. 

I think of it as swimming upstream. I am a religious Jewish person and our society is pretty conservative in their thinking ... meaning, listen to the doctor, do what he says .. etc etc... sure, i'll find the occasional " hippie " type who likes to eat ezekiel bread and is Vegan, but more often than not, my friends and family are smart people, college educated have done thier " research " - so like i said - i often feel i'm swimming upstream.... 

This is a great group. Thanks for all your support !!!! Oh to answer you Winnie, that vaccines get in the way of the natural healing defenses --- this is something my naturopath preaches.... he  doesnt even get into the vaccination topic, because hes so focused on organic eating, herbal remedies, that generally these huge massive illnesses arent huge and massive and with a litlte herbs here and there, youre fine. Its more how to deal with the real world in answering peoples questions. 

thanks again !!! deb  

[Guest guest]

Well, I was really addressing the comment that if all kids get vaxed that diseases would disappear. They have to know that it isn't happening in their lifetime so since they feel vaccines are so safe, I'd think they want to get them just to be sure and not dwell on this fantasy of a disease-free world.

It's really ignorant of them, too, because if they knew their stuff, they would understand that even if 100% of the world's population was fully vaccinated, there would NOT be 100% protection (even if vaccines worked, which they don't). Far from it. So, that leaves a big pocket for diseases to thrive in--not in the unvaxed but in the vaccine failures.

Winnie

So many questions about Vaccination!!> > > Vaccinations > > >> > > > hi everyone,> > > > since i dont have kids (yet) i never had the need to fully> > > > research the topic of Vaccines. I follow this thread loosely> > > and> > > > occasionally i'll comment on what i've learned from experience> > > > etc.> > > >> > > > Heres the thing. Every once in a while, the topic comes up> > > > either among family or friends , and while i fully believe in> > > > natural and non-vaccinations,(i was never vaccinated as a> > > kid),> > > > i feel that these conversations end up leaving me feel> > > > uneducated. Someone will throw out statements like: (for> > > > example)> > > >> > > > "non-vax kids cause other kids to get sick"> > > > "herd immunity - if all kids are Vaxed then the disease is> > > gone> > > > etc."> > > > "kids DIE if they dont get vaccines - from other childhood> > > > illnesses"> > > > "the benefits outweigh the risks"> > > >> > > > not only that, but my husband is on the fence as well.> > > > Thankfully hes come along way (thanks to me about natural> > > > living, but hes not fully convinced that Vaccines are > safe, OR> > > > unsafe. He knows there are side effects and he sees that kids> > > DO> > > > get messed up, but because of things like polio etc... he> > > doesnt> > > > think they're THAT terrible and they do help....> > > >> > > > Make a long story short, it bothers me that i dont really know> > > > ALL the answers to all those questions my friends raise. I'm> > > not> > > > a doctor, i cant throw out statistics (or remember them!) and> > > > even if i dont argue and just stay mum, at least i should feel> > > > in my heart, when someone throws out the "herd immunity" issue> > > -> > > > that i know the answer.> > > >> > > > (also - a woman in my neighborhood, her son recently had> > > > Lukemia. Hes better now thank G-d, but she told me that she> > > had> > > > to make sure that EVERY kid in the school or class was> > > > vaccinated or else he could die or something....how could i> > > ever> > > > possibly respond to that? )> > > >> > > > Anyways, where do i begin? Or where do i continue > > > > And how can i help my husband see the light ....> > > >> > > > thanks so much !!!!!> > > >> > > > deb > > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > >>

[Guest guest]

Haha--I don't really know all my facts. I know where to look them up. I usually don't get into arguments so much as I drop little bombs here and there, chatting up unsuspecting new parents in stores. "Cute baby. Do the docs still try to get you to vaccinate them or is everyone pretty savvy about vaccine dangers these days? Just asking." I do try to avoid it with family members.

Anyway, yes, that's what I mean about asking them questions instead of giving answers. Sometimes when a person has to think about something it wakes them up in a way telling them doesn't.

The comment about if vaccines are so benign...is in reference to someone else's opinion--not mine! And continuing as in give whatever ones come along.

Any doctor who says they haven't seen any serious conditions from vaccines is not being truthful. Maybe they don't make the connection but I guarantee you they've seen these conditions. Are we really supposed to believe that these docs have no kids with ear infections, asthma, allergies, cancer, ADHD, diabetes, learning problems? They've seen them.

Yes, ask them about particular vaccines or diseases. Everyone seems to get a chuckle out of the chicken pox one, even those who get it for their kids. It's really hard, though, to break away from believing in them. I used to be so pro-vaccine...

Winnie

Re: So many questions about Vaccination!!Vaccinations > Hi Winnie,> Thanks for your reply as well.... you are BRILLIANT when it > comes to> Vaccines.. you seem to know all your facts down PAT !!! Do you > even get> into any arguements with people anymore ? > > I'm really LOVING your idea of "throwing the questions back" > .... this one> woman i know really upsets me when she goes into her rants about > how people> who dont vaccinate are "selfish" and "neglectful" and > "irresponsible" .. i> mean come on, its not like we're abusive parents !!!!so that > really upsets> me. I do like the idea of changing the conversation that instead > of giving> answers, we're making THEM answer their own questions... (is > that what you> mean?)> > Questions that i should reply would be:> "why is it that Vaccinated kids get the illnesses they were > protected from?> ... this means they dont always work?" (ummm thats where Herd Immunity> comes in... i'll have to look up those links posted)> > What do you mean Winnie when you said "If Vaccines are so > benign, whats the> harm in conituning them?" (since people think the'yre safe... > how do you> mean "continue them" as in booster shots?)> > I never heard of VAERS reports.... i'll google it > > I would say 90% of my freinds who are parents (i'm 29 so most of > my freinds> have like 1-3 kids - still new, researching etc.) they ALL have said> something along the lines of "benefits outweigh the risks... > i've done the> research. My doc says he's seen kids die but never any serious > conditionsfrom Vaccines etc"> > Intersting point that ALL vaccines comes with differnt > effectiveness and> side effects --- so REALLY we (and we as in argumentor/ > argumentee should> discuss one at a time... like Flu Vaccine was just written up > that the> claims for effectiveness are NOT true....etc) On the flip side every> illness effects people differently because of health history.... > (yes i'm> repeating what youre saying, i just need to clarify to make sure i> understand ... hope you forgive)> > SO my friends who say the benefits outweigh the risks - are BASICALLY> saying that tehre ARE risks. So which ones have risks, and what > kind of> risks ??? ( i like that)> > Winnie, my favorite line of your email ---- "You think You dont have> combacks? They dont either" -- ha !!!! youre adorable > > AS for my hubby, hes come a LOOOONG way. His family never heard > of an herb> or vitamin in their life, and my husbands first introduction to > naturalliving was joining me (as my boyfriend) to a visit at the> Kinesiologit/chiropractor. He freaked out when she muscle tested > me .... so> i think we'll get there, i just think he needs to feel more > confident ...> and i'll assume that at some point we'll recieve a lot of flack > from family> members, so he'll need to know how to respond .... and know hes > doing the> right thing for his kids.> > Thanks again Winnie !!!> (are you writing a book of all the information you know ? >

[Guest guest]

It does - it destroys natural immunity by stopping mothers from giving placental and breast milk protection from disease, they can't so well if they have been vaccinated. This is the reason newborns are now vulnerable to whooping cough. They never used to be. By suppressing the disease, they limit the possibility of exposure and overall herd immunity leading people to rely on artificial 'immunity' that doesn't give real immunity and needs re-boosting all the time, so they are swapping their life-long immunity for life-long dependence on pharmaceuticals and they create epidemics of disease in older people who would not normally have got the disease at that age and so it is more serious for them. They are increasing the chance of serious side-effects of the illness. If they'd just left

nature alone, mother's placenta and breast milk would have protected baby for minimum of a year or even longer, protecting the most vulnerable from whooping cough etc. They would have got it in early childhood, at the optimal age, gained immunity so that they would then not pass it on to their own newborns.If girls were allowed to get rubella as little girls, they would be immune at childbearing age. Now, since MMR that only suppresses for 5 years, girls are in a position where they are told to go for re-boosters all the time, worrying in pregnancy whether or not they are immune, blood tests to check for titers and being roped into vaccination after they have given birth.I never had MMR or rubella vaccine (they didn't give MMR in the UK till 1988 and I was too old for it then, they only give it to babies and toddlers here), and I bunked

off school when they were doing rubella because I didn't want it - I hid the consent form from my mother. I had rubella the illness as a little girl. Well, in all my blood tests during pregnancies from 1995-2007 I tested immune to rubella. My babies cannot get congenital rubella syndrome because I had rubella as a kid and now I have life-long immunity. If I had not had the illness and had been given the vaccine, I don't think my blood tests would have showed immune and they would have been hassling me to get shots all the time. Their actions cause babies to be at increased risk of birth defects.Likewise, my daughter got chickenpox when I was only 10 weeks pregnant but I didn't worry because I had chickenpox as a kid which means that my body provided placental immunity to my son at a time when he would have otherwise been vulnerable. He was born perfect. If

children were vaccinated for chickenpox here, there would be no placental immunity, the vaccine would wear off, it would leave a whole generation of mothers and babies open to congenital varicella syndrome.Not to mention the fact that when you vaccinate, the disease mutates. It always does. When we introduced hib vaccine, that caused an upsurge of meningitis C, so we introduced that vaccine which is capable of mutating into B strain. When we brought in Prevnar, other forms of the disease occured and it caused a 70% increase in overall pneumonia so they introduced the 13-valent one. Incidently, if you have prevnar you are more likely to come down with MRSA. If you have H1N1 vaccine you lose your ability to fight normal strain flu. If you have DTAP you can get a new mutant whooping cough that has a higher death rate than the original. Even measles is

mutating. When you try to suppress a disease (the same as with antibiotics), all you end up doing is destroying natural immune defences at the same time as creating killer superbugs.Joanna. From: "wharrison@..." <wharrison@...> Vaccinations Sent: Friday, 16 December 2011, 0:37 Subject: Re: So many questions about Vaccination!!

Oh, this is good reading. Thanks, Joanna! I like this from the first link:

"If 68% of the population were allowed to build their own natural defences, there would be no raging epidemic." So, vaccination is actually anti-herd immunity because it interferes with the process.

Winnie So many questions about Vaccination!!> Vaccinations > > > hi everyone,> > since i dont have kids (yet) i never had the need to fully > > research the topic of Vaccines. I follow this thread loosely

> and > > occasionally i'll comment on what i've learned from experience > > etc. > > > > Heres the thing. Every once in a while, the topic comes up > > either among family or friends , and while i fully believe in > > natural and non-vaccinations,(i was never vaccinated as a > kid), > > i feel that these conversations end up leaving me feel > > uneducated. Someone will throw out statements like: (for > > example) > > > > "non-vax kids cause other kids to get sick"> > "herd immunity - if all kids are Vaxed then the disease is > gone > > etc." > > "kids DIE if they dont get vaccines - from other childhood > > illnesses" > > "the benefits outweigh the risks" > > > > not only that, but my husband is on the fence as well. > > Thankfully hes come

along way (thanks to me about natural > > living, but hes not fully convinced that Vaccines are safe, OR > > unsafe. He knows there are side effects and he sees that kids > DO > > get messed up, but because of things like polio etc... he > doesnt > > think they're THAT terrible and they do help.... > > > > Make a long story short, it bothers me that i dont really know > > ALL the answers to all those questions my friends raise. I'm > not > > a doctor, i cant throw out statistics (or remember them!) and > > even if i dont argue and just stay mum, at least i should feel > > in my heart, when someone throws out the "herd immunity" issue > - > > that i know the answer. > > > > (also - a woman in my neighborhood, her son recently had > > Lukemia. Hes better now thank G-d, but she told me

that she > had > > to make sure that EVERY kid in the school or class was > > vaccinated or else he could die or something....how could i > ever > > possibly respond to that? ) > > > > Anyways, where do i begin? Or where do i continue > > And how can i help my husband see the light .... > > > > thanks so much !!!!! > > > > deb > > > > >

[Guest guest]

I am always looking for studies, every week. I've studied vaccines continously from 1995 till now. Apart from wanting to prevent chronic disability in children, I find the subject fascinating. I remember my arguments but don't always remember the citations. You'd be surprised the number of times I end up looking something up on my own site, LOL. From: Deborah <gubertush@...> Vaccinations Sent: Friday, 16 December 2011, 3:34 Subject: Re: So many questions about Vaccination!!

wow Joanna,this is intense reading !!!!! thank you for these links, i will be studying them. How do you keep track of all this information ? Do you often "brush up" on the statistics ? It feels a bit overwhelming. So much to take in.

I think of it as swimming upstream. I am a religious Jewish person and our society is pretty conservative in their thinking ... meaning, listen to the doctor, do what he says .. etc etc... sure, i'll find the occasional "hippie" type who likes to eat ezekiel bread and is Vegan, but more often than not, my friends and family are smart people, college educated have done thier "research" - so like i said - i often feel i'm swimming upstream....

This is a great group. Thanks for all your support !!!! Oh to answer you Winnie, that vaccines get in the way of the natural healing defenses --- this is something my naturopath preaches.... he doesnt even get into the vaccination topic, because hes so focused on organic eating, herbal remedies, that generally these huge massive illnesses arent huge and massive and with a litlte herbs here and there, youre fine. Its more how to deal with the real world in answering peoples questions.

thanks again !!! deb

[Guest guest]

Yeah, just be like your kidWhy?Blah blah blahWhy? Just keep asking why til they say oh never mind J lol Nita, mom to: 18, Jon 17, 14, 12, 10, Christian RIP: 7/16/03-8/22/04, 6, Isaac 3 and , born 3/1/11http://momof6.dotphoto.com for possibly current pictures and http://nitasspot.blogspot.comNitaSews on etsy.comIf you have melted chocolate on your hands, you're eating it too slowly!

[Guest guest]

I don't know a whole lot of facts down pat, but that doesn't stop me from

arguing (it's a personality " flaw " lol!) I will usually say, " oh, those disesase

are so bad, are they? Tell me, what's so bad about measles? How many kids die

from measles? Why is it such a serious disease, people I knew growing up had it,

and I don't know of anyone who died! Did it suddenly get worse? " I just keep

asking questions that I know they have no clue how to answer. I ask what sort

of " research " it is they think they've done, ask them about VAERS (usually

they've never heard of it) and what they think of the information there. I ask

them if their kid has ever had a vaccine reaction, and why they are complacent

enough to believe that a high fever, whining/crying etc after vaccines is

acceptable. If they're so " benign " why do you let your kid go through that, but

are scared of chicken pox? How is that better? Do you know how long " immunity "

from vaccines last?

Usually after they've talked with me for a few minutes, they stop arguing and

realize that they are probably not as " educated " as they thought. I don't care

if they come over to my side or not, but after arguing this topic with me,

nobody ever comes back for seconds!

>

> Haha--I don't really know all my facts. I know where to look them up. I

usually don't get into arguments so much as I drop little bombs here and there,

chatting up unsuspecting new parents in stores. " Cute baby. Do the docs still

try to get you to vaccinate them or is everyone pretty savvy about vaccine

dangers these days? Just asking. " I do try to avoid it with family members.

>

> Anyway, yes, that's what I mean about asking them questions instead of giving

answers. Sometimes when a person has to think about something it wakes them up

in a way telling them doesn't.

>

> The comment about if vaccines are so benign...is in reference to someone

else's opinion--not mine! And continuing as in give whatever ones come along.

>

> Any doctor who says they haven't seen any serious conditions from vaccines is

not being truthful. Maybe they don't make the connection but I guarantee you

they've seen these conditions. Are we really supposed to believe that these docs

have no kids with ear infections, asthma, allergies, cancer, ADHD, diabetes,

learning problems? They've seen them.

>

> Yes, ask them about particular vaccines or diseases. Everyone seems to get a

chuckle out of the chicken pox one, even those who get it for their kids. It's

really hard, though, to break away from believing in them. I used to be so

pro-vaccine...

>

> Winnie

>

> Re: So many questions about Vaccination!!

> Vaccinations

>

> > Hi Winnie,

> > Thanks for your reply as well.... you are BRILLIANT when it

> > comes to

> > Vaccines.. you seem to know all your facts down PAT !!! Do you

> > even get

> > into any arguements with people anymore ?

> >

> > I'm really LOVING your idea of " throwing the questions back "

> > .... this one

> > woman i know really upsets me when she goes into her rants about

> > how people

> > who dont vaccinate are " selfish " and " neglectful " and

> > " irresponsible " .. i

> > mean come on, its not like we're abusive parents !!!!so that

> > really upsets

> > me. I do like the idea of changing the conversation that instead

> > of giving

> > answers, we're making THEM answer their own questions... (is

> > that what you

> > mean?)

> >

> > Questions that i should reply would be:

> > " why is it that Vaccinated kids get the illnesses they were

> > protected from?

> > ... this means they dont always work? " (ummm thats where Herd Immunity

> > comes in... i'll have to look up those links posted)

> >

> > What do you mean Winnie when you said " If Vaccines are so

> > benign, whats the

> > harm in conituning them? " (since people think the'yre safe...

> > how do you

> > mean " continue them " as in booster shots?)

> >

> > I never heard of VAERS reports.... i'll google it

> >

> > I would say 90% of my freinds who are parents (i'm 29 so most of

> > my freinds

> > have like 1-3 kids - still new, researching etc.) they ALL have said

> > something along the lines of " benefits outweigh the risks...

> > i've done the

> > research. My doc says he's seen kids die but never any serious

> > conditionsfrom Vaccines etc "

> >

> > Intersting point that ALL vaccines comes with differnt

> > effectiveness and

> > side effects --- so REALLY we (and we as in argumentor/

> > argumentee should

> > discuss one at a time... like Flu Vaccine was just written up

> > that the

> > claims for effectiveness are NOT true....etc) On the flip side every

> > illness effects people differently because of health history....

> > (yes i'm

> > repeating what youre saying, i just need to clarify to make sure i

> > understand ... hope you forgive)

> >

> > SO my friends who say the benefits outweigh the risks - are BASICALLY

> > saying that tehre ARE risks. So which ones have risks, and what

> > kind of

> > risks ??? ( i like that)

> >

> > Winnie, my favorite line of your email ---- " You think You dont have

> > combacks? They dont either " -- ha !!!! youre adorable

> >

> > AS for my hubby, hes come a LOOOONG way. His family never heard

> > of an herb

> > or vitamin in their life, and my husbands first introduction to

> > naturalliving was joining me (as my boyfriend) to a visit at the

> > Kinesiologit/chiropractor. He freaked out when she muscle tested

> > me .... so

> > i think we'll get there, i just think he needs to feel more

> > confident ...

> > and i'll assume that at some point we'll recieve a lot of flack

> > from family

> > members, so he'll need to know how to respond .... and know hes

> > doing the

> > right thing for his kids.

> >

> > Thanks again Winnie !!!

> > (are you writing a book of all the information you know ?

> >

>

[Guest guest]

' " My doc says he's seen kids die but never any serious conditions

from Vaccines etc " '

This is a little OT for me as I don't have children, but I can tell you it works

the same way in the pet world. After my german shepherd had an adverse reaction

to a rabies vaccine, my vet swore up and down that it was in NO way possible

that his reaction was casued by the vaccine. In addition, in her 20+ years of

practice, she had NEVER once seen an adverse reaction to a vaccine. Yeah, sure.

The problem, I think, is that nobody connects the dots. There is a long list of

symptoms, both short and long term in humans and animals that are side effects

of vaccines. But most people, including drs and vets, either don't know this, or

look at is as being expected and normal. Therefore, the majority of these

adverse reactions are never reported. I can't imagine what the stats would be if

everyone reported every reaction after a vaccine was administered!

Friends of ours have a 1 1/2 year old son. EVERY time he gets his vaccines he is

in ill health. Fever, cold symptoms, etc., and bad ones that last for at least a

week. But hey, that's normal and expected, so they deal with it. I won't even

mention how they can't even stay in the room with him when the vaccines are

administered because he is in such hysterics that they can't bear to watch it.

The things people are willing to accept because a dr tells them to do it makes

me speechless.

Alina

>

> Hi Winnie,

> Thanks for your reply as well.... you are BRILLIANT when it comes to

> Vaccines.. you seem to know all your facts down PAT !!! Do you even get

> into any arguements with people anymore ?

>

> I'm really LOVING your idea of " throwing the questions back " .... this one

> woman i know really upsets me when she goes into her rants about how people

> who dont vaccinate are " selfish " and " neglectful " and " irresponsible " .. i

> mean come on, its not like we're abusive parents !!!!so that really upsets

> me. I do like the idea of changing the conversation that instead of giving

> answers, we're making THEM answer their own questions... (is that what you

> mean?)

>

> Questions that i should reply would be:

> " why is it that Vaccinated kids get the illnesses they were protected from?

> ... this means they dont always work? " (ummm thats where Herd Immunity

> comes in... i'll have to look up those links posted)

>

> What do you mean Winnie when you said " If Vaccines are so benign, whats the

> harm in conituning them? " (since people think the'yre safe... how do you

> mean " continue them " as in booster shots?)

>

> I never heard of VAERS reports.... i'll google it

>

> I would say 90% of my freinds who are parents (i'm 29 so most of my freinds

> have like 1-3 kids - still new, researching etc.) they ALL have said

> something along the lines of " benefits outweigh the risks... i've done the

> research. My doc says he's seen kids die but never any serious conditions

> from Vaccines etc "

>

> Intersting point that ALL vaccines comes with differnt effectiveness and

> side effects --- so REALLY we (and we as in argumentor/ argumentee should

> discuss one at a time... like Flu Vaccine was just written up that the

> claims for effectiveness are NOT true....etc) On the flip side every

> illness effects people differently because of health history.... (yes i'm

> repeating what youre saying, i just need to clarify to make sure i

> understand ... hope you forgive)

>

> SO my friends who say the benefits outweigh the risks - are BASICALLY

> saying that tehre ARE risks. So which ones have risks, and what kind of

> risks ??? ( i like that)

>

> Winnie, my favorite line of your email ---- " You think You dont have

> combacks? They dont either " -- ha !!!! youre adorable

>

> AS for my hubby, hes come a LOOOONG way. His family never heard of an herb

> or vitamin in their life, and my husbands first introduction to natural

> living was joining me (as my boyfriend) to a visit at the

> Kinesiologit/chiropractor. He freaked out when she muscle tested me .... so

> i think we'll get there, i just think he needs to feel more confident ...

> and i'll assume that at some point we'll recieve a lot of flack from family

> members, so he'll need to know how to respond .... and know hes doing the

> right thing for his kids.

>

> Thanks again Winnie !!!

> (are you writing a book of all the information you know ?

>

[Guest guest]

I think my response would be something along the lines of, " Doesn't

leukemia (or radiation therapy) make your son's immune system weaker?

But you want all the kids he's around to be vaccinated with all kinds of

diseases he could get? Isn't that dangerous? "

I have to say, also, I'm skeptical that she could " make sure " every kid

in his school or class was vaccinated. I would think that HIPPA laws

apply to those records and legally the school can't give out that kind

of info to other parents. Now if she wants to ask every single parent,

that's a different story. Not to mention, states have legal exemptions

from vaccine requirements.

>

> (also - a woman in my neighborhood, her son recently had Lukemia. Hes

better now thank G-d, but she told me that she had to make sure that

EVERY kid in the school or class was vaccinated or else he could die or

something....how could i ever possibly respond to that? )

>

>

[Guest guest]

" I just want to make sure i understand. When you were referring to CHicken Pox - youre saying that once you get it, you (the kid) is stronger, and can never get it again cuz tehy have immunity? so in the long run Chicken pox is NOT a bad thing? (is that what you mean?) "

 

Correct - why is getting the chicken pox so bad?  Not to mention a 11 year old girl who lived across the street from us told me one day " do you know that I got the chicken pox shot and got the chicken pox anyway? "   Duh, she most likely got them from the vaccine; so instead of naturally getting chicken pox from a kid with chicken pox, she got injected with the disease in addition to all the crap they put in a vaccine (if you look up the ingredients you will want to throw up).

 

" His preschool aged son is healthy, but he made sure that the shcools policy ONLY allowed vaccinated children in teh preschool) So what youre saying is that since the vaccinated kids in the school have the ACTUAL virus in their bodies ... so theres actually a bigger chance for the child to contract the illness? "

 

Correct.  Just like with puppies being exposed to other dogs recently vaccinated; yes natural immunity works, but if you over expose a puppy to a bunch of recenly vaccinated puppies/dogs, they may get the disease from exposure to the other dogs.  This can be through sniffing feces (which does not apply to humans I hope) but also through saliva; so kids sneezing on a community basket ball, their desk, drinking out of the same cup, swapping gum, being funny and spitting on each other, whatever.

-- Tina Berry - MTKriegshund German ShepherdsWorking Lines ~ Naturally Rearedwww.kriegshundgsds.com

[Guest guest]

I just joined this group a week ago and haven't had a chance to introduce myself

yet (I will) but I've been following this thread and wanted to suggest you watch

the movie " Greater Good " with your hubby. It was showing for free on Dr.

Mercola's website but I believe you would have to buy the DVD now. Its worth it.

It tells the real, heartbreaking stories of families and children who've been

hurt by vaccines. It's very well done, not fear mongering, many interviews with

doctors and information about drug companies and the FDA. I think it's a good

place to start. Here is a link to the film's website

http://www.greatergoodmovie.org/

Hope that helps!

Jen Flick in PA

Sent from my iPhone

[Guest guest]

I know, I know - don't even get me started!

Alina

>

> How awful, abandoning your child because it's too hard on you to watch. What

must be going through that child's mind?? They could at least be there and keep

their eyes shut!

>

> Winnie

>

> Re: So many questions about Vaccination!!

> Vaccinations

>

> >

> >

> > ' " My doc says he's seen kids die but never any serious conditions

> > from Vaccines etc " '

> >

> > This is a little OT for me as I don't have children, but I can

> > tell you it works the same way in the pet world. After my german

> > shepherd had an adverse reaction to a rabies vaccine, my vet

> > swore up and down that it was in NO way possible that his

> > reaction was casued by the vaccine. In addition, in her 20+

> > years of practice, she had NEVER once seen an adverse reaction

> > to a vaccine. Yeah, sure.

> >

> > The problem, I think, is that nobody connects the dots. There is

> > a long list of symptoms, both short and long term in humans and

> > animals that are side effects of vaccines. But most people,

> > including drs and vets, either don't know this, or look at is as

> > being expected and normal. Therefore, the majority of these

> > adverse reactions are never reported. I can't imagine what the

> > stats would be if everyone reported every reaction after a

> > vaccine was administered!

> >

> > Friends of ours have a 1 1/2 year old son. EVERY time he gets

> > his vaccines he is in ill health. Fever, cold symptoms, etc.,

> > and bad ones that last for at least a week. But hey, that's

> > normal and expected, so they deal with it. I won't even mention

> > how they can't even stay in the room with him when the vaccines

> > are administered because he is in such hysterics that they can't

> > bear to watch it.

> >

> > The things people are willing to accept because a dr tells them

> > to do it makes me speechless.

> >

> > Alina

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

pls check this site http://www.greatmothersquestioningvaccines.com/

> >

> > How awful, abandoning your child because it's too hard on you to watch. What

must be going through that child's mind?? They could at least be there and keep

their eyes shut!

> >

> > Winnie

> >

> > Re: So many questions about Vaccination!!

> > Vaccinations

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > ' " My doc says he's seen kids die but never any serious conditions

> > > from Vaccines etc " '

> > >

> > > This is a little OT for me as I don't have children, but I can

> > > tell you it works the same way in the pet world. After my german

> > > shepherd had an adverse reaction to a rabies vaccine, my vet

> > > swore up and down that it was in NO way possible that his

> > > reaction was casued by the vaccine. In addition, in her 20+

> > > years of practice, she had NEVER once seen an adverse reaction

> > > to a vaccine. Yeah, sure.

> > >

> > > The problem, I think, is that nobody connects the dots. There is

> > > a long list of symptoms, both short and long term in humans and

> > > animals that are side effects of vaccines. But most people,

> > > including drs and vets, either don't know this, or look at is as

> > > being expected and normal. Therefore, the majority of these

> > > adverse reactions are never reported. I can't imagine what the

> > > stats would be if everyone reported every reaction after a

> > > vaccine was administered!

> > >

> > > Friends of ours have a 1 1/2 year old son. EVERY time he gets

> > > his vaccines he is in ill health. Fever, cold symptoms, etc.,

> > > and bad ones that last for at least a week. But hey, that's

> > > normal and expected, so they deal with it. I won't even mention

> > > how they can't even stay in the room with him when the vaccines

> > > are administered because he is in such hysterics that they can't

> > > bear to watch it.

> > >

> > > The things people are willing to accept because a dr tells them

> > > to do it makes me speechless.

> > >

> > > Alina

> > >

> > >

> > >

>