Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Have you read Evidence of Harm? It's an excellent book that talks about the MMR concern in addition to the whole thimerosal issue. I personally won't just give my child vaccines anymore. If he gets any, they will be broken up into several doses rather than all at once. My belief is that children are genetically pre-disposed to autism, and it takes something to 'push them over the edge' into autism, if that makes sense...those 'something's being vaccines, environment, exposures to meds during pregnancy, etc. My son was always different as a baby, but he definitely got worse within the few months after he received the batch of shots that included the MMR. Related? Who knows, but I feel like continuing to vaccine (in our personal case, not everyone's) while working so hard with therapies and treatment would be counterproductive. MMR Hi All I have a question. Now that the Thimerosal has been removed from everything but the flu shot I feel ok about vaccinating my baby. Now my worry is the MMR. What are you all doing about that? I'm sure I'm going to give it but can I request it be given in 3 seperate shots? I have been such a supporter of vaccinations that problems with them are very new to me. I have just learned that my dd has aspergers. I think she was genetically prredisposed to it but who knows what made it manifest. I'm still not convinced that the vaccines are the problem but I am beginning to feel, why take chances. What is the common knowledge out there? Carol, mom to , 3/14/94 , 2/18/97 Lily, 9/7/04 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 I used to think those that felt vaccines were dangerous were paranoid or desperately trying to find someone to blame. I believed that doctors and the CDC had my child's best interest in mind. I dutifully vaccinated my first 4 children according to the schedule (except #4 was 4 months old when I slowed him down). When my #3 child was diagnosed with autism, I got on a number of lists and read post after post about how many felt vaccines was the cause. I did not take any of them seriously until I met someone that became autistic when she was 8 year old - immediately after the MMR. How can this be blamed as anything else? At the same time, I was going to a support group monthly. I heard the stories from many of the moms and had a sense of where their kids were at. Time and again, someone there would start chelation (process of removing metals) and excitedly report at the next meeting how their non-verbal child is speaking in sentences or how all of a sudden behaviours have dissappeared. If metals was not a problem, why would chelation yield such dramatic results? I knew at this point I could no longer feel comfortable having my kids vaccinated until I resolve this issue in my mind once and for all. I decided to read the book many recommend, What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Children's Vaccines by Dr. Cave. She is a pediatrician that one day pondered why so many of her patients were becoming autistic. After the office was closed one day, she spread out the files of all her autistic patients and tried to see if she could notice any correlation. She was shocked when she realized that they all started having symptoms right after their MMR. She thought she discovered something new and contacted an autism organization (can remember which one) only to find they knew many have already suspecting this for a long time. She put her practice on hold and set out to research all the vaccines, their risks, the risks of not having them etc. She wrote this book to help parents to make informed decisions. She does not advocate not vaccinating but chosing which ones are safer, when is the best time to give them and how to lessen the possibilty of a reaction. In my opinion this is a must-read for any parent. As I read it I was shocked. I pulled out the vaccine and medical records for my kids and guess what I discovered. Son #1 - a couple weeks after he had his MMR, I took him back to the doctor. He was crying from pain and limping. He also was not talking. He was diagnosed with Rheumatoid Arthritis. He eventually did talk but has always been slow, robotic-like and fragmented. Recently he was diagnosed with Aspergers. RA is one of the conditions she listed in her book as a possible injury from the MMR. Son #2 - I thought for some reason that he did not have his MMR until after he was diagnosed with autism but from looking at his records again realized it was at 1 year, not 2. This is around the time he started regressing. He also was crying constantly which was brushed off as colic. Son #3 - He also started crying constantly within a week of his DPT at 3 months. He stopped gaining weight, would no longer look at me and never babbled. At 10 months I went on the GF diet since I was nursing him and he became a different child. He eventually was diagnosed with celiac disease but I really believe he was on the road to autism. When I went on the diet his eye contact returned, he started babbling and playing appropriately with toys. Within a couple months (1st birthday) he had 20 words. Son #4 - He is 5 months old and so far has not been vaccinated at all. I want to do it slow for him but have not yet found a doctor that will accept my insurance and agree to anything other than the CDC schedule. Of my 5 kids, he is the easiest one. He only cries when hungry and is hitting the milestones early. He is a total joy after having 4 difficult children before him. I truely feel his not being vaccinated is why. If vaccines are so dangerous, why aren't all kids autistic? This is the one question that kept going through my head. I understand better now. First, some are genetically less capable of eliminating metals than others. Girls are less likely to react to metals because of their hormones. This would explain why there are so many more boys than girls on the spectrum. Second, mercury has a tendency to sink to the bottom. Each vial has a number of doses (6?). The nurse is supposed to shake the vial but not all of them do it or may do it too soon and it settles again. What this means is the first 5 get a little mercury while the last unlucky child gets a whopping dose. Third, I believe for some kids, the metals in vaccines could just be the " straw that broke the camel's back " . Some kids many already have exposure to other metals so the vaccines just pushed them over. As for the thimerasol removed, you still have to be careful. Children's vaccines are not supposed to be manufactered using it but there are still lots of vials out there from before. A few weeks ago on another list someone posted frantic. She took her child to get shots. Before the shot, she asked the doctor if it had thimerisol in it and the doctor said it is no longer used. Immediately after the child was injected, they noticed the label. It did in fact have thimerisol in it! Not only that, I have heard that most companies have substituted with aluminum. Not much better. A preservative is required for a combination vaccine. That is why getting the Measles, Mumps and Rubella separate is the safest way. Not only that, if they get it split, it is not as big a hit on the immune system to have to fight so many disease at once. Vaccines when given at the right time and without metals can protect our kids for various diseases. We have to make sure that the risk of the disease outweighs the risk of the vaccine though. The fact is we live in a society where most are vaccinated so the chances of getting those diseases are quite small. This book will also help you determine according to where you live what diseases are also at risk. Before you vaccine another child, please read this book. > Hi All > I have a question. Now that the Thimerosal has been removed from everything but the flu shot I feel ok about vaccinating my baby. Now my worry is the MMR. What are you all doing about that? I'm sure I'm going to give it but can I request it be given in 3 seperate shots? I have been such a supporter of vaccinations that problems with them are very new to me. I have just learned that my dd has aspergers. I think she was genetically prredisposed to it but who knows what made it manifest. I'm still not convinced that the vaccines are the problem but I am beginning to feel, why take chances. What is the common knowledge out there? > > > Carol, mom to > , 3/14/94 > , 2/18/97 > Lily, 9/7/04 > > > > --------------------------------- > Discover > Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 I am that way with chicken pox -- I've been told to not get it for ds, but I saw my older two get chicken pox before the vaccinations were available and they were SO sick, and one has scars. I'd like to avoid ds getting that on top of everything else. When the time comes for that vaccine, I'm not sure what we'll do. It's the only remaining vaccine that we'll consider as-is. Out of my 4 kids, the only one that has autism is my youngest and the rest all had their vaccinations, but I firmly believe everyone has to research the risk on their own...the youngest may be the only one genetically pre-disposed to autism, and vaccinations may not be 100% the cause of autism but if there are ways to lessen the possibility of them harming a child, my vote is to lessen it. Donna Re: MMR > I'd go ahead with the vaccinations. My daughter, Louie's elder sis, had > all her shots (except the MMR, which didn't exist when she was little) > and is not autistic. My son had the diseases instead of the shots for > MMR, but had all his other immunizations (except hepatitis, which wasn't > offered then) and is autistic. My conclusion is that autism is genetic > and any one of a number of outside may cause it to evince, or then > again, it may be evident from infancy (as was our son's). But, having > seen two kids through both kinds of measles and the mumps (our daughter > got a really high temp, got delerious, and scared us to pieces).....I'd > go for the vaccinations. > > Hope this helps you! > > Annie, who loves ya annie@... > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 My friend's daughter was around another child with chicken pox last year. She thought she was safe since she had been vaccinated. She got shingles - a much worse condition. I understand if someone is immune to chicken pox, they can instead get shingles so this would make sense that one vaccinated for CP would get shingles. I got chicken pox when I was in my 20's. By the time I found out, I had already spread it to my elderly boss. Since she had already had chicken pox, she got shingles and was hospitalized for a week. I would take chicken pox over shingles anyday. > I am that way with chicken pox -- I've been told to not get it for ds, but I > saw my older two get chicken pox before the vaccinations were available and > they were SO sick, and one has scars. I'd like to avoid ds getting that on > top of everything else. When the time comes for that vaccine, I'm not sure > what we'll do. It's the only remaining vaccine that we'll consider as-is. > > Out of my 4 kids, the only one that has autism is my youngest and the rest > all had their vaccinations, but I firmly believe everyone has to research > the risk on their own...the youngest may be the only one genetically > pre-disposed to autism, and vaccinations may not be 100% the cause of autism > but if there are ways to lessen the possibility of them harming a child, my > vote is to lessen it. > > Donna > > Re: MMR > > > > I'd go ahead with the vaccinations. My daughter, Louie's elder sis, had > > all her shots (except the MMR, which didn't exist when she was little) > > and is not autistic. My son had the diseases instead of the shots for > > MMR, but had all his other immunizations (except hepatitis, which wasn't > > offered then) and is autistic. My conclusion is that autism is genetic > > and any one of a number of outside may cause it to evince, or then > > again, it may be evident from infancy (as was our son's). But, having > > seen two kids through both kinds of measles and the mumps (our daughter > > got a really high temp, got delerious, and scared us to pieces).....I'd > > go for the vaccinations. > > > > Hope this helps you! > > > > Annie, who loves ya annie@r... > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 Some time ago on one of these lists some kind person posted an alternative immunization schedule. I can't find the post or the link or any info on it - and I have really tried hard!! I have also lost my hard copy of it. Anyway.... the revised schedule spaced out immunzations, never allowed a child to get more than one shot at a time, and broke up many of the multi-dose shots. Also, I believe the schedule only vaccinated for certain diseases if titers came back indicating the child was not immune. If anyone has this list or the link to it I would really appreciate it!! Thanks, Anne, Mom to Jack, 7.7, AS, DSI, ADD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 Shingles is much worse than chicken pox and what said is very true. Also the chicken pox vaccine is only good for 10 years and the illness itself gets more dangerous the older you are when you get it. I would MUCH rather my kids get chicken pox AS kids than as adults!! Re: MMR> > > > I'd go ahead with the vaccinations. My daughter, Louie's elder sis, had> > all her shots (except the MMR, which didn't exist when she was little)> > and is not autistic. My son had the diseases instead of the shots for> > MMR, but had all his other immunizations (except hepatitis, which wasn't> > offered then) and is autistic. My conclusion is that autism is genetic> > and any one of a number of outside may cause it to evince, or then> > again, it may be evident from infancy (as was our son's). But, having> > seen two kids through both kinds of measles and the mumps (our daughter> > got a really high temp, got delerious, and scared us to pieces).....I'd> > go for the vaccinations.> >> > Hope this helps you!> >> > Annie, who loves ya annie@r...> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 >>Shingles is much worse than chicken pox and what said is very true. >>Also the chicken pox vaccine is only good for 10 years and the illness >>itself gets more dangerous the older you are when you get it. I would >>MUCH rather my kids get chicken pox AS kids than as adults!! << Shingles is caused by the same virus as chicken pox. The CP virus stays in your system once you have had it, and can be reactivated to give you shingles, often under conditions of stress. We do not have a CP vaccination in this country although there are plans to combine it with the MMR. This worries some people because there is a hypothesis that people who have had CP the disease within a 3-6 month period of having had measles (either the disease or the vaccination) seem to be more inclined to go on to have Crohn's as adults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 > She was shocked when she realized that > they all started having symptoms right after their MMR. A very important rule in statistics is that correlation is not the same as causation. Autism starts to become more apparent during the second year of life because that is when a huge amount of social development occurs in NT children, and autistics who have not had the MMR will also 'start to have symptoms' in the same period. My son had the MMR and I can tell you that it did not affect him at all. I didn't know he was autistic till he was 10, but looking back I can see that all the signs were there from babyhood. My husband did not have MMR, or vaccines apart from polio and smallpox, and he is just as autistic. I saw a video once on TV made by some parents who claim their son became autistic after the MMR - but the footage of him as a baby was like watching a video of my son, and it is my belief that that boy was already autistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 My kids have fevers of 104+ -- they had pox where no person should ever have to scratch, in addition to eyelides, inside their ears and inside their mouths. It was horrific. I know shingles is painful, but the stats for it are less than for chicken pox. Watching them suffer for days, at 5 and 4, just broke my heart. Again, it's one of those things people have to consider beforehand -- coming from my perspective, we'll definitely do the CP vaccine. Re: MMR > My friend's daughter was around another child with chicken pox last > year. She thought she was safe since she had been vaccinated. She > got shingles - a much worse condition. > > I understand if someone is immune to chicken pox, they can instead > get shingles so this would make sense that one vaccinated for CP > would get shingles. I got chicken pox when I was in my 20's. By the > time I found out, I had already spread it to my elderly boss. Since > she had already had chicken pox, she got shingles and was > hospitalized for a week. I would take chicken pox over shingles > anyday. > > > > >> I am that way with chicken pox -- I've been told to not get it for > ds, but I >> saw my older two get chicken pox before the vaccinations were > available and >> they were SO sick, and one has scars. I'd like to avoid ds getting > that on >> top of everything else. When the time comes for that vaccine, I'm > not sure >> what we'll do. It's the only remaining vaccine that we'll consider > as-is. >> >> Out of my 4 kids, the only one that has autism is my youngest and > the rest >> all had their vaccinations, but I firmly believe everyone has to > research >> the risk on their own...the youngest may be the only one > genetically >> pre-disposed to autism, and vaccinations may not be 100% the cause > of autism >> but if there are ways to lessen the possibility of them harming a > child, my >> vote is to lessen it. >> >> Donna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 As I said before, I do not feel that vaccines alone are the cause of austism. I do believe it is metal poisoning though. Vaccines are only one source of metal poisoning but the most dangerous in that it is injected straight in the body as opposed to metals that are injested and can be eliminated through the digestive system. I also do not believe that MMR is the only concern. For the MMR I believe the concern is having those 3 viruses together in addition to the metal issue. The body is expected to fight 3 separate viruses and eliminate the metals at the same time. For some with poor immune systems, this is too much. There are other sources of metals as well and these could cause harm as well. As for the kids you mentioned appeared to have autistic traits before the MMR, this does not prove the MMR has no affect on them. Since 1991, most hospitals give newborns a Hepatitis B shot before leaving the hospital (they give a newborn a virus to fight but tell parents to keep them home to protect them for illness). This vaccine used to have mercury in it too. It is very possible for a child to show some signs from an early age but the condition worsened as they got more and more vaccines. As for the timing coinciding with age, they would make sense yet how would that explain the lady I mentioned that became autistic at age 8 after her MMR or the son of a friend of mine that became autistic at age 7 after having an amalgam filling? Those cannot be explained by having been born with it or by their age. Both of these people did not have any autistic symptoms prior but lost language in a matter of days. > > > She was shocked when she realized that > > they all started having symptoms right after their MMR. > > A very important rule in statistics is that correlation is not the same as > causation. Autism starts to become more apparent during the second year of > life because that is when a huge amount of social development occurs in NT > children, and autistics who have not had the MMR will also 'start to have > symptoms' in the same period. > > My son had the MMR and I can tell you that it did not affect him at all. I > didn't know he was autistic till he was 10, but looking back I can see that > all the signs were there from babyhood. My husband did not have MMR, or > vaccines apart from polio and smallpox, and he is just as autistic. > > I saw a video once on TV made by some parents who claim their son became > autistic after the MMR - but the footage of him as a baby was like watching > a video of my son, and it is my belief that that boy was already autistic. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2005 Report Share Posted May 13, 2005 I had the pox that bad at 12. my mouth,throat, ears, eye lids, you name it. It was awful.....on the other hand my father almost died from shingles and now the right side of his face is paralyzed so....I guess neither options are terrific! Re: MMR> My friend's daughter was around another child with chicken pox last> year. She thought she was safe since she had been vaccinated. She> got shingles - a much worse condition.>> I understand if someone is immune to chicken pox, they can instead> get shingles so this would make sense that one vaccinated for CP> would get shingles. I got chicken pox when I was in my 20's. By the> time I found out, I had already spread it to my elderly boss. Since> she had already had chicken pox, she got shingles and was> hospitalized for a week. I would take chicken pox over shingles> anyday.>> >> >> I am that way with chicken pox -- I've been told to not get it for> ds, but I>> saw my older two get chicken pox before the vaccinations were> available and>> they were SO sick, and one has scars. I'd like to avoid ds getting> that on>> top of everything else. When the time comes for that vaccine, I'm> not sure>> what we'll do. It's the only remaining vaccine that we'll consider> as-is.>>>> Out of my 4 kids, the only one that has autism is my youngest and> the rest>> all had their vaccinations, but I firmly believe everyone has to> research>> the risk on their own...the youngest may be the only one> genetically>> pre-disposed to autism, and vaccinations may not be 100% the cause> of autism>> but if there are ways to lessen the possibility of them harming a> child, my>> vote is to lessen it.>>>> Donna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 , > As for the kids you mentioned appeared to have autistic traits before > the MMR, this does not prove the MMR has no affect on them. And I didn't say that it had no effect - just that I do not think it had anything to do with their autism. In my previous post I said that a very small number may be brain damaged by vaccines (as a larger number are by the diseases themselves). Brain damage + ASD = worse ASD. Since > 1991, most hospitals give newborns a Hepatitis B shot before leaving > the hospital (they give a newborn a virus to fight but tell parents > to keep them home to protect them for illness). Perhaps in the US, but I don't know if this happens in England. I suspect not. > This vaccine used to > have mercury in it too. It is very possible for a child to show some > signs from an early age but the condition worsened as they got more > and more vaccines. As for the timing coinciding with age, they would > make sense yet how would that explain the lady I mentioned that > became autistic at age 8 after her MMR or the son of a friend of mine > that became autistic at age 7 after having an amalgam filling? Those > cannot be explained by having been born with it or by their age. > Both of these people did not have any autistic symptoms prior but > lost language in a matter of days. > Technically they are not ASD, as that has to have onset earlier. And how do you know that they had no ASD beforehand? If asked when my son was 7/8 if he was autistic I would have said no because I had no idea that his little quirks were autism. in England Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 Dear All, I didnt even know they had brought out a vaccine for chicken pox. My kids aren't going to have it, but thats because they've already had the CP. But on the other hand, I'm really glad my 2 eldest had there vaccines, because they both had whooping cough. And it was awful to watch them both and be totally helpless. My son BJ actually stopped breathing twice, and the doctor told me to be thankful they only had a mild dose of it because they'd had the vaccines. I had a total of eight wks of hell from the eldest getting it and then BJ. As they got over that they both went down with C Pox a week later, and they were really poorly. netty >From: " designs " <scottdesigns@...> >Reply-Autism and Aspergers Treatment ><Autism and Aspergers Treatment > >Subject: Re: Re: MMR >Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:35:42 -0400 > >I had the pox that bad at 12. my mouth,throat, ears, eye lids, you name >it. It was awful.....on the other hand my father almost died from shingles >and now the right side of his face is paralyzed so....I guess neither >options are terrific! > Re: MMR > > > > My friend's daughter was around another child with chicken pox last > > year. She thought she was safe since she had been vaccinated. She > > got shingles - a much worse condition. > > > > I understand if someone is immune to chicken pox, they can instead > > get shingles so this would make sense that one vaccinated for CP > > would get shingles. I got chicken pox when I was in my 20's. By the > > time I found out, I had already spread it to my elderly boss. Since > > she had already had chicken pox, she got shingles and was > > hospitalized for a week. I would take chicken pox over shingles > > anyday. > > > > > > > > > >> I am that way with chicken pox -- I've been told to not get it for > > ds, but I > >> saw my older two get chicken pox before the vaccinations were > > available and > >> they were SO sick, and one has scars. I'd like to avoid ds getting > > that on > >> top of everything else. When the time comes for that vaccine, I'm > > not sure > >> what we'll do. It's the only remaining vaccine that we'll consider > > as-is. > >> > >> Out of my 4 kids, the only one that has autism is my youngest and > > the rest > >> all had their vaccinations, but I firmly believe everyone has to > > research > >> the risk on their own...the youngest may be the only one > > genetically > >> pre-disposed to autism, and vaccinations may not be 100% the cause > > of autism > >> but if there are ways to lessen the possibility of them harming a > > child, my > >> vote is to lessen it. > >> > >> Donna > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 I am not sure that it has been removed from the meningitis imunization. My 18 year old just received it a couple of weeks ago (in preparation for college) and the consent said to not get the shot if you had reaction to thimerosal. Just be cautious. > Hi All > I have a question. Now that the Thimerosal has been removed from everything but the flu shot I feel ok about vaccinating my baby. Now my worry is the MMR. What are you all doing about that? I'm sure I'm going to give it but can I request it be given in 3 seperate shots? I have been such a supporter of vaccinations that problems with them are very new to me. I have just learned that my dd has aspergers. I think she was genetically prredisposed to it but who knows what made it manifest. I'm still not convinced that the vaccines are the problem but I am beginning to feel, why take chances. What is the common knowledge out there? > > > Carol, mom to > , 3/14/94 > , 2/18/97 > Lily, 9/7/04 > > > > --------------------------------- > Discover > Have fun online with music videos, cool games, IM & more. Check it out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 According to the FDA info I just read (http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm#t1), the chicken pox vaccine has never had Thimerosol in it as a preservative. Annie, who loves ya annie@... -- Wandering is one of the most sensible things in the world to do. I highly recommend the pursuit of happiness from east to west, bending and stopping, pausing, enjoying, not going anywhere in particular except down a beach or around a pond, always knowing that there is something wonderful just ahead. --- Ann H. Zwinger, Naturalist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 denisewill3 wrote: > I am not sure that it has been removed from the meningitis > imunization. My 18 year old just received it a couple of weeks ago > (in preparation for college) and the consent said to not get the shot > if you had reaction to thimerosal. Just be cautious. > > > According to that website (yeah, I'm gonna make y'all crazy ), the meningitis vaccine Menactra, made by Aventis Pasteur, has never had Thimerosol in it. Maybe next time, we should " ask for it by name " ? Annie, who loves ya annie@... -- Wandering is one of the most sensible things in the world to do. I highly recommend the pursuit of happiness from east to west, bending and stopping, pausing, enjoying, not going anywhere in particular except down a beach or around a pond, always knowing that there is something wonderful just ahead. --- Ann H. Zwinger, Naturalist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 Thimerisol is just one of the problems with vaccines. Other metals - especially aluminum - is used as a preservative in some vaccines. Some are a problem because they are given too early before the immune system is ready to fight (such as Hepatitis B at birth), some are problematic when given in conjuction with other vaccines (too many viruses for the body to fight at once) and sometimes they are given to a child when they are sick and cannot properly fight. As for the chicken pox, my concern is that those I know that have had the vaccine, when exposed to the virus got shingles instead. > According to the FDA info I just read > (http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm#t1), the chicken pox > vaccine has never had Thimerosol in it as a preservative. > > Annie, who loves ya annie@r... > -- > Wandering is one of the most sensible things in the world to do. I > highly recommend the pursuit of happiness from east to west, bending and > stopping, pausing, enjoying, not going anywhere in particular except > down a beach or around a pond, always knowing that there is something > wonderful just ahead. --- Ann H. Zwinger, Naturalist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 cubicmonica wrote: > Thimerisol is just one of the problems with vaccines. Other metals - > especially aluminum - is used as a preservative in some vaccines. > Some are a problem because they are given too early before the immune > system is ready to fight (such as Hepatitis B at birth), some are > problematic when given in conjuction with other vaccines (too many > viruses for the body to fight at once) and sometimes they are given to > a child when they are sick and cannot properly fight. As for the > chicken pox, my concern is that those I know that have had the > vaccine, when exposed to the virus got shingles instead. > > That's why I included the link to the website in my post....or one of them anyway. The charts at the bottom of the text portion shows what the preservatives used in each vaccine are. And, of course, the text goes into that a little more fully. My sister, who is 2 years younger than I am (I'm 57), had chicken pox pretty good when we were little, back in the early 50's. I brought them home and gave it to her, not on purpose of course. And year before last, she got the shingles on her arms and legs. Missed a whole lot of work and was just miserable for weeks, bless her heart. So I think getting shingles is one of those " luck of the draw " things, not a " vaccine or no vaccine " thing. Annie, who loves ya annie@... -- Wandering is one of the most sensible things in the world to do. I highly recommend the pursuit of happiness from east to west, bending and stopping, pausing, enjoying, not going anywhere in particular except down a beach or around a pond, always knowing that there is something wonderful just ahead. --- Ann H. Zwinger, Naturalist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2005 Report Share Posted June 12, 2005 Yes, I would tend to agree with you Annie. While the vaccinations do appear to have some measure of risk associated with them, the probability of a child getting one of the common childhood diseases that the shots protect them from, and perhaps suffering permanent damage from them, and even death in some cases, can be avoided. I would imagine the risk of getting the diseases far outweighs the risk of a child getting autism. All four of my children had their shots, and only one has problems in his brain, autism being one of them, and we have no idea if any of his vaccinations had anything to do with his problems. And even if they do at least he didn't get whooping cough and die of it, as thousands of children do every year. All six of my grandchildren have also had their shots, with no ill effects. Thank God! But I know it is tough on a mother to have to make all these decisions. My kids had the chicken pox, and mumps, my daughter was just 4 months old when she had the chicken pox, but nobody had measles. I had the measles, was in bed for two weeks and finally had to have my tonsils out, had chicken pox, and also whooping cough, but not polio, thank goodness. I know of women who had the 3 day measles and their babies were born deaf. So it is a good thing there is a shot against it. It is just not a perfect world, and never will be I am afraid, but I do believe in doing what one can do. Like in the Bible, after you have done all, then stand. So I stand. Lots of love to you all, Carolyn in Oregon Re: MMR I'd go ahead with the vaccinations. My daughter, Louie's elder sis, had all her shots (except the MMR, which didn't exist when she was little) and is not autistic. My son had the diseases instead of the shots for MMR, but had all his other immunizations (except hepatitis, which wasn't offered then) and is autistic. My conclusion is that autism is genetic and any one of a number of outside may cause it to evince, or then again, it may be evident from infancy (as was our son's). But, having seen two kids through both kinds of measles and the mumps (our daughter got a really high temp, got delerious, and scared us to pieces).....I'd go for the vaccinations.Hope this helps you!Annie, who loves ya annie@...-- Wandering is one of the most sensible things in the world to do. I highly recommend the pursuit of happiness from east to west, bending and stopping, pausing, enjoying, not going anywhere in particular except down a beach or around a pond, always knowing that there is something wonderful just ahead. --- Ann H. Zwinger, Naturalist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 Great post. Reference to Jimmy perhaps displaced in this debate about vaccines. Other than the Clintons, the s were firstest with the mostest in this "cure the world with vaccines" mentality. MMR http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/richard_horton/2006/04/the_sadness_of_mmr.htmlDear Dr Horton,My first "contact" with your thinking, was a review you wrote once ofa book called "Follies and Fallacies in Medicine." I was impressedwith the clarity of your thought.That seems a world away now. I thought that perhaps "copernicus"issues in medicine might eventually be recognised. But the MMR issue ~in fact, the whole vaccination issue ~ has revealed that in mostmedical problems, medical people are rarely able to think outsideindividual mindset mountains.Medical history shows us that the minute one of them, like Semmelweisor Oliver Wendell Holmes spoke out, they were pilloried, slandered andput through the mill, just as has been done to Wakefield. I have nojudgement on Wakefield. After all, medical history shows us we neverget to know the "truth" about a few of these issues until thetruth-teller and the power brokers are all dead, and no-one will loseface. Furthermore, very few of the medical skeletons ever fall out thecupboard, unless to do so furthers a greater agenda. Semmelweiss andOliver Wendel Holmes were convenient because they furthered the aimsof Listerine, and drug companies then in infancy.You say you want independently led public discussion about the MMRvaccine in order to show evidence, and help the public regainconfidence in the Public Health System. Let me see if I can work thisout. Whose evidence? Does this mean the same equivalent of what iseuphemistically called "public consultation"? "Let justice be seen tobe done so that we can put the MMR back onto 100% compliance levels,which will then mean we can open the market to Proquad (MMR +chickenpox), and then five years later, add another few antigens intothat needle as well?"Or is the real issue that of who controls a thing called parental"choice"?You are right. The debate so far has been futile. While for you, thedebate is MMR, for most parents it & #65533;s not. As children keel overeverywhere, and medical people have no answers, parents are usingtheir brains, going to medical libraries, looking back to the numberof jabs they had as kids, and the almost zero jabs their parents hadas kids, and asking very valid questions like "apart from the everdeteriorating mineral and vitamin quality of food, and vast increasein environmental toxins (neither issues of interest to the medicalprofession), what is the one key difference that medical people aredoing to developing immune systems of very very young babies?" Thereis one other answer. Vaccines, and stacks of them.Look at yourself, Dr Horton. How many vaccines did you and yourparents have? Do you have a family tree? You know as well as any ofus, that this world was over-populated well before MMR came onto themarket, so what is your evidence of the NEED for measles vaccines?You say that thanks to measles vaccine global measles deaths fell by40% between 1999 and 2003. Presumably you mean in with lousysantitation, crock food, and abysmal water quality. Was it "just themeasles vaccine? Looking at the WHO website I find that, the primarydecrease in measles deaths and complications can be as much attributedto mass administration of Vitamin A as anything else, and anyone withaccess to the WHO website, can find that information for themselves.Yet Vitamin A saving X thousand deaths a year is also a decoy, sincethe nutrition in the developing world is now worse than it ever wasfor the average person, and for every fly swat you use against onedisease, the very vulnerabilities of little food, lousy water, nosanitation, war, dislocation etc still remain, so another disease willcome along and take Measles' place. Do you count those too, or is lifecheap except where it can be used to shore up a vaccine? Would youlike to debate the real needs of Africa with Jimmy , who appearsto be one of the few people around who understands what Africansreally need.What about debating the real needs of UK parents with them instead ofinsisting the only way is your way?You know why most diseases became so less dangerous before vaccines inthe UK. Those reasons reside in the annals of the Registrar General ofGreat Britain.As part of the evidence you want people to consider, will you put upfor them, the measles deaths decline graph of UK from 1875 onwards,and explain to people how it was measles became far less dangerousdecades before the vaccine was even thought of?Will you likewise put up all the graphs of the other diseases andexplain to people the real epidemiology of all the diseases, ratherthan the 10-second soundbites that pass for legitimacy when persuadingparents to line up for yet another vaccine?Will you also explain to them from UK official statistics, that thepeople who succumb to measles (and most infectious diseases actually)in DEVELOPED countries like UK, were and still are usuallynutritionally deprived children, or children with serious chroniccondition which, had they not died from measles could well havesuccumbed to other conditions?In the world of real justice, if it might in the future be found thatthe huge increase in severe food allergies whereby kids have to carryepi-pens could be attributable to vaccines (fat chance given theloaded dice) will you tell people that an epi-pen for life is a goodtrade off to a disease like say whooping cough, mumps or rubella, thatyou probably sailed through with minimal problems, as are most of theunvaccinated children sailing through measles with minimal problems?This debate you would like to have is too narrow. But let & #65533;s have it,televised live to the world. Will you allow those amongst us who haveall these facts, to question you at length about ALL the relevantissues around MEASLES, (and all the other vaccines which might beconsidered unnecessary) not just the red herring of MMR vaccine safety?For many of us, Dr Horton, vaccine safety isn't the issue. After all,it & #65533;s there for the world to see that as of December 2002 vaccines ingeneral, haven't been tested for safety.http://www.fda.gov/cber/minutes/tox120202.htm In 1999, in a SenateHearing a prominent doctor boasted that they hoped, within a definedperiod, to have 300 vaccines in the schedule. The question really is,when is enough enough? 300+ potential vaccines across the board, areactually the issue, not just MMR.Parents would like to debate the desires of the medical profession andthe pharmaceutical companies to have a need to vaccinate everyone foreverything, repeatedly, not merely MMR.To some of us, the vaccine industry is out of control. To the vaccineindustry of course, it is solely stakeholder interests in the ElDorado of Wall Street.Right now, Dr Horton, you have a situation where a patently obviouslyludicrous vaccine, the BCG, which has never worked and will neverwork, (unless you want a 50% protection against leprosy), is stillbeing used in UK, and still hold smythical status. If the medicalprofession can't be trusted to get rid of useless vaccines nowinjuring Irish children, then how can they be trusted to tell thetruth about any other vaccine?You want rancour put aside? Whose rancour?When parents find their children are the casualty of your vaccine waragainst every possible disease, and are harrassed and hounded andlabelled as Munchaussen's parents when they try to find answers toproblems, what do you expect other than rancour? The "bloody schism"as you put it, has not been generated by either Wakefield, or the MMRvaccine, but by a medically driven policy to thrust any and allvaccines and often unnecessary drugs, down parents throats by usingemotionally laden fear tactics, and expecting them to comply for somephilosophy of 'public good' when in all likelihood their child mightnever have suffered either disease complications or deaths. These sameparents suddenly look back and realise they didn't have these vaccinesand can plainly remember times when some of these diseases wereconsidered relatively benign, and our survival as a planet did notdepend on them. They think "I survived without these vaccines, so whyshould my child be the casualty from what is euphemistically called"just a little prick"?Who do you feel could independently lead this quasi-judicial settingDr Horton? Most of the judges throughout the world, without thought orquestion consider the WHO, AMA, GMC and yourself to be unquestionablyGod. Would there even be Justice done in this quasi-judicial court, orjust your version of Justice being seen to be done?The Great Divide on this issue is now so large, that the only "person"able to withstand the insider trading, and political pressure from thepharmaceuticals and the vested interests they so rely on to keep thewheels on track, is God Himself, since He alone knows the heart of thepro-vaccine matter.We on the other side, when viewing the "facts" are completely in theblind as to why every vaccine possible is pushed with such rigorousfevour when far more pressing, basic and real issues are leftlanguishing. Like... preventable medical error. Nutrition in NHShospitals. Nutrition in general. Obesity. Rampant antibiotic overuseleading to Clostridium difficile amongst just a few of antibioticrelated issues.There are so many health issues of today, caused by the medicalprofession's inability to deal with real issues, yet the ONE issue youchose to focus on as being of monumnetal import is the MMR vaccine?Measles, in the UK, will kill far fewer people than automobiles will.Have a look around you Dr Horton. Look at these babies that are toofat to fit into car-seats, these kids who look like Michelin man, andwho will, in future, need so much medical care, that should a personwho has taken personal responsibility all their lives, really needsomething done, their place in the queue will long have been taken bypeople who believe their choice to eat junk is paramount. Democracy isfine, so long as vaccines doesn't come into the issue. Ah, I hear yousay "But obesity can't infect anyone else!" True Dr Horton, but it & #65533;sthe "innocent" who have to pay the bill. Same analogy, differentsituation. You can't have it both ways. Your concern, to hearing earssounds very inconsistent.It isn't possible for the medical profession to even be independent,since as you so eloquently put it, you have already stated what youwant. For that matter, it wouldn't be possible for me to be consideredindependent either, since I want the medical profession to clean uptheir house and get back to real public health basics that really meansomething in 2006. I believe though, that I have one advantage overyou Dr Horton. I've been on both sides, seen both sides, andinvestigated both sides, whereas you are on one side and have nointerest in looking at the WHOLE vaccine issues, or the the basis ofthe real issues that face parents today.Understanding real issues, requires shoe-leather epidemiology and theability to really look and really listen. That quality evades all wholive in Ivory Towers, think they know it all, and make edicts withpens while pushing desks. You say Dr Horton, "We have, it seems, allfailed Ebner."In reality Dr Horton, who else have you failed? For all that medicinehas "to offer" exactly how many of the really pressing problems of theworld has medicine made a meaningful contribution to? You might say"Vaccines". To that I say this. The trade-off, which is the abysmallack of knowledge about disease etiology and the immune system, lookslike facing the world down a tunnel, the end of which is literally, hell.A contemporary of yours from the past (Major Greenwood, "Epidemic andcrowd diseases" 1925") has as relevant message for today:"It is fortunate for the world that pre-immunization against thetyphoid group was not discovered in the days of Laissez-faire; had itbeen, many more thousands would have died of typhoid than actuallydid. Eighty years ago, it would have been hard to persuade thepossessing classes to spend money on safeguarding water supplies if socheap an alternative method of protection could have been provided."Sincerely, from the past, Copernicus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2006 Report Share Posted April 25, 2006 Every child By Two continues to destroy American infants registering them with vaccine-induced illnesses for live. .......But we used to be a great nation. MMR http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/richard_horton/2006/04/the_sadness_of_mmr.htmlDear Dr Horton,My first "contact" with your thinking, was a review you wrote once ofa book called "Follies and Fallacies in Medicine." I was impressedwith the clarity of your thought.That seems a world away now. I thought that perhaps "copernicus"issues in medicine might eventually be recognised. But the MMR issue ~in fact, the whole vaccination issue ~ has revealed that in mostmedical problems, medical people are rarely able to think outsideindividual mindset mountains.Medical history shows us that the minute one of them, like Semmelweisor Oliver Wendell Holmes spoke out, they were pilloried, slandered andput through the mill, just as has been done to Wakefield. I have nojudgement on Wakefield. After all, medical history shows us we neverget to know the "truth" about a few of these issues until thetruth-teller and the power brokers are all dead, and no-one will loseface. Furthermore, very few of the medical skeletons ever fall out thecupboard, unless to do so furthers a greater agenda. Semmelweiss andOliver Wendel Holmes were convenient because they furthered the aimsof Listerine, and drug companies then in infancy.You say you want independently led public discussion about the MMRvaccine in order to show evidence, and help the public regainconfidence in the Public Health System. Let me see if I can work thisout. Whose evidence? Does this mean the same equivalent of what iseuphemistically called "public consultation"? "Let justice be seen tobe done so that we can put the MMR back onto 100% compliance levels,which will then mean we can open the market to Proquad (MMR +chickenpox), and then five years later, add another few antigens intothat needle as well?"Or is the real issue that of who controls a thing called parental"choice"?You are right. The debate so far has been futile. While for you, thedebate is MMR, for most parents it & #65533;s not. As children keel overeverywhere, and medical people have no answers, parents are usingtheir brains, going to medical libraries, looking back to the numberof jabs they had as kids, and the almost zero jabs their parents hadas kids, and asking very valid questions like "apart from the everdeteriorating mineral and vitamin quality of food, and vast increasein environmental toxins (neither issues of interest to the medicalprofession), what is the one key difference that medical people aredoing to developing immune systems of very very young babies?" Thereis one other answer. Vaccines, and stacks of them.Look at yourself, Dr Horton. How many vaccines did you and yourparents have? Do you have a family tree? You know as well as any ofus, that this world was over-populated well before MMR came onto themarket, so what is your evidence of the NEED for measles vaccines?You say that thanks to measles vaccine global measles deaths fell by40% between 1999 and 2003. Presumably you mean in with lousysantitation, crock food, and abysmal water quality. Was it "just themeasles vaccine? Looking at the WHO website I find that, the primarydecrease in measles deaths and complications can be as much attributedto mass administration of Vitamin A as anything else, and anyone withaccess to the WHO website, can find that information for themselves.Yet Vitamin A saving X thousand deaths a year is also a decoy, sincethe nutrition in the developing world is now worse than it ever wasfor the average person, and for every fly swat you use against onedisease, the very vulnerabilities of little food, lousy water, nosanitation, war, dislocation etc still remain, so another disease willcome along and take Measles' place. Do you count those too, or is lifecheap except where it can be used to shore up a vaccine? Would youlike to debate the real needs of Africa with Jimmy , who appearsto be one of the few people around who understands what Africansreally need.What about debating the real needs of UK parents with them instead ofinsisting the only way is your way?You know why most diseases became so less dangerous before vaccines inthe UK. Those reasons reside in the annals of the Registrar General ofGreat Britain.As part of the evidence you want people to consider, will you put upfor them, the measles deaths decline graph of UK from 1875 onwards,and explain to people how it was measles became far less dangerousdecades before the vaccine was even thought of?Will you likewise put up all the graphs of the other diseases andexplain to people the real epidemiology of all the diseases, ratherthan the 10-second soundbites that pass for legitimacy when persuadingparents to line up for yet another vaccine?Will you also explain to them from UK official statistics, that thepeople who succumb to measles (and most infectious diseases actually)in DEVELOPED countries like UK, were and still are usuallynutritionally deprived children, or children with serious chroniccondition which, had they not died from measles could well havesuccumbed to other conditions?In the world of real justice, if it might in the future be found thatthe huge increase in severe food allergies whereby kids have to carryepi-pens could be attributable to vaccines (fat chance given theloaded dice) will you tell people that an epi-pen for life is a goodtrade off to a disease like say whooping cough, mumps or rubella, thatyou probably sailed through with minimal problems, as are most of theunvaccinated children sailing through measles with minimal problems?This debate you would like to have is too narrow. But let & #65533;s have it,televised live to the world. Will you allow those amongst us who haveall these facts, to question you at length about ALL the relevantissues around MEASLES, (and all the other vaccines which might beconsidered unnecessary) not just the red herring of MMR vaccine safety?For many of us, Dr Horton, vaccine safety isn't the issue. After all,it & #65533;s there for the world to see that as of December 2002 vaccines ingeneral, haven't been tested for safety.http://www.fda.gov/cber/minutes/tox120202.htm In 1999, in a SenateHearing a prominent doctor boasted that they hoped, within a definedperiod, to have 300 vaccines in the schedule. The question really is,when is enough enough? 300+ potential vaccines across the board, areactually the issue, not just MMR.Parents would like to debate the desires of the medical profession andthe pharmaceutical companies to have a need to vaccinate everyone foreverything, repeatedly, not merely MMR.To some of us, the vaccine industry is out of control. To the vaccineindustry of course, it is solely stakeholder interests in the ElDorado of Wall Street.Right now, Dr Horton, you have a situation where a patently obviouslyludicrous vaccine, the BCG, which has never worked and will neverwork, (unless you want a 50% protection against leprosy), is stillbeing used in UK, and still hold smythical status. If the medicalprofession can't be trusted to get rid of useless vaccines nowinjuring Irish children, then how can they be trusted to tell thetruth about any other vaccine?You want rancour put aside? Whose rancour?When parents find their children are the casualty of your vaccine waragainst every possible disease, and are harrassed and hounded andlabelled as Munchaussen's parents when they try to find answers toproblems, what do you expect other than rancour? The "bloody schism"as you put it, has not been generated by either Wakefield, or the MMRvaccine, but by a medically driven policy to thrust any and allvaccines and often unnecessary drugs, down parents throats by usingemotionally laden fear tactics, and expecting them to comply for somephilosophy of 'public good' when in all likelihood their child mightnever have suffered either disease complications or deaths. These sameparents suddenly look back and realise they didn't have these vaccinesand can plainly remember times when some of these diseases wereconsidered relatively benign, and our survival as a planet did notdepend on them. They think "I survived without these vaccines, so whyshould my child be the casualty from what is euphemistically called"just a little prick"?Who do you feel could independently lead this quasi-judicial settingDr Horton? Most of the judges throughout the world, without thought orquestion consider the WHO, AMA, GMC and yourself to be unquestionablyGod. Would there even be Justice done in this quasi-judicial court, orjust your version of Justice being seen to be done?The Great Divide on this issue is now so large, that the only "person"able to withstand the insider trading, and political pressure from thepharmaceuticals and the vested interests they so rely on to keep thewheels on track, is God Himself, since He alone knows the heart of thepro-vaccine matter.We on the other side, when viewing the "facts" are completely in theblind as to why every vaccine possible is pushed with such rigorousfevour when far more pressing, basic and real issues are leftlanguishing. Like... preventable medical error. Nutrition in NHShospitals. Nutrition in general. Obesity. Rampant antibiotic overuseleading to Clostridium difficile amongst just a few of antibioticrelated issues.There are so many health issues of today, caused by the medicalprofession's inability to deal with real issues, yet the ONE issue youchose to focus on as being of monumnetal import is the MMR vaccine?Measles, in the UK, will kill far fewer people than automobiles will.Have a look around you Dr Horton. Look at these babies that are toofat to fit into car-seats, these kids who look like Michelin man, andwho will, in future, need so much medical care, that should a personwho has taken personal responsibility all their lives, really needsomething done, their place in the queue will long have been taken bypeople who believe their choice to eat junk is paramount. Democracy isfine, so long as vaccines doesn't come into the issue. Ah, I hear yousay "But obesity can't infect anyone else!" True Dr Horton, but it & #65533;sthe "innocent" who have to pay the bill. Same analogy, differentsituation. You can't have it both ways. Your concern, to hearing earssounds very inconsistent.It isn't possible for the medical profession to even be independent,since as you so eloquently put it, you have already stated what youwant. For that matter, it wouldn't be possible for me to be consideredindependent either, since I want the medical profession to clean uptheir house and get back to real public health basics that really meansomething in 2006. I believe though, that I have one advantage overyou Dr Horton. I've been on both sides, seen both sides, andinvestigated both sides, whereas you are on one side and have nointerest in looking at the WHOLE vaccine issues, or the the basis ofthe real issues that face parents today.Understanding real issues, requires shoe-leather epidemiology and theability to really look and really listen. That quality evades all wholive in Ivory Towers, think they know it all, and make edicts withpens while pushing desks. You say Dr Horton, "We have, it seems, allfailed Ebner."In reality Dr Horton, who else have you failed? For all that medicinehas "to offer" exactly how many of the really pressing problems of theworld has medicine made a meaningful contribution to? You might say"Vaccines". To that I say this. The trade-off, which is the abysmallack of knowledge about disease etiology and the immune system, lookslike facing the world down a tunnel, the end of which is literally, hell.A contemporary of yours from the past (Major Greenwood, "Epidemic andcrowd diseases" 1925") has as relevant message for today:"It is fortunate for the world that pre-immunization against thetyphoid group was not discovered in the days of Laissez-faire; had itbeen, many more thousands would have died of typhoid than actuallydid. Eighty years ago, it would have been hard to persuade thepossessing classes to spend money on safeguarding water supplies if socheap an alternative method of protection could have been provided."Sincerely, from the past, Copernicus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 The author has, in the past, been highly critical of for that. I believe what she was saying was that, unlike Gates, is helping to prevent disease in the first place by founding a program which is alleviating third world hunger by promoting agricultural development. In other words, seems to understand now that vaccinating malnourished children will not solve the problem. H <stratpat@...> wrote: Great post. Reference to Jimmy perhaps displaced in this debate about vaccines. Other than the Clintons, the s were firstest with the mostest in this " cure the world with vaccines " mentality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2006 Report Share Posted April 26, 2006 If that's true, that's great. However, the s appear not to be speaking out about the issue, given how much they know and how much (collateral damage) they've done. I don't understand Gates, perhaps he's locked into what he's already done. Re: MMR The author has, in the past, been highly critical of for that.I believe what she was saying was that, unlike Gates, ishelping to prevent disease in the first place by founding a programwhich is alleviating third world hunger by promoting agriculturaldevelopment. In other words, seems to understand now thatvaccinating malnourished children will not solve the problem.H <stratpat@...> wrote: Great post. Reference to Jimmy perhaps displaced in thisdebate about vaccines. Other than the Clintons, the s werefirstest with the mostest in this "cure the world with vaccines"mentality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2006 Report Share Posted April 30, 2006 b/c they are trying to see just how young they can ruin them. AND they are giving it on the same day as the chicken pox vaccine. MMR >I see that now they're giving the MMR at 12 months instead of 18. I > wonder why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2006 Report Share Posted April 30, 2006 My son had his at 13 months along with the 4th Hib, and that was in 1997. And he had no problem with it at all---yeah right. http://ph./group/EOHarm/photos/view/1bbc?b=1 Cheryl > > b/c they are trying to see just how young they can ruin them. > AND they are giving it on the same day as the chicken pox vaccine. > > MMR > > > >I see that now they're giving the MMR at 12 months instead of 18. I > > wonder why? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.