Re: Feedback response - Herd immunity

[Guest guest]

The herd immunity theory does exist - it was a phrase that was coined after a 1900's study of children with measles. The researcher, Hedrich, found that epidemics of the illness only occured if less than 68% of people developed an immunity to it. If 68% or more were naturally immune then there would be no epidemic. It was about the natural disease, measles, and not anything to do with vaccination. Then pro-vaccine people took the study, applied it to vaccination and increased the 68% figure to 95% without any justification as to why and they now use this study of measles between 1900-1931 as a cheap publicity stunt for vaccination.

http://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/The-Herd-Immunity-Theory-Treating-Our-Children-Like-Cattle--- On Wed, 9/2/11, victumx <lsshanklin@...> wrote:

From: victumx <lsshanklin@...>Subject: Feedback response - Herd immunityVaccinations Date: Wednesday, 9 February, 2011, 6:48

Ok, so there is a disscussion about vax'ing, now "herd immunity" on my local holistic mothers group. When I remarked how herd immunity doesn't exist and was never proven a member came back with the below response. I am just wondering if others here have any feedback to add. I believe the termed was first coined in the 30's with a researcher following the animals and weren't they talking about natural immunity? Plus there is no herd immunity with tetanus as one becomes infected from dirty soil containing the bacterium. Polio I know is an environmental/pollution factor. Also I didn't think small pox even existed before the Europeans arrived so I am not sure on her argument there. For if they had natural immunity then they probably wouldn't have died from it. Unless she is trying to say the Europeans outnumbered the Native Americans so the herd immunity scales "tipped"."Herd immunity can and does exist. Vaccines just don't guarantee it. And

it's not 100%. Nothing in this world is.All that's required for herd immunity to exist is for a group of people to not be exposed to a specific pathogen. This can be achieved in a variety of ways. The pathogen could not be in existence in that population. The Native Americans had herd immunity against small pox before Europeans came here, for example. A pathogen could essentially die out. We have herd immunity against polio now, because no one has had it in so long that it's essentially extinct here. Or a large enough portion of the population is immune to said pathogen that not enough people will be able to catch it, there fore even if one non immune person gets it, they won't be able to spread it to ideally anyone, or at the very least not enough people to start an epidemic."Thanks!Lorelei

[Guest guest]

I would just tell her she proved your own point: vaccines aren't 100% effective. In fact, "they" are way less (I say they because it's completely unscientific to lump all vaccines for all diseases made in all lots by all manufacturers with all of the population's various responses depending on their health status that day, their health history, genetics, etc.).

In fact, "they" at best are sometimes only 30%. In fact, "they" are only measured by antibody response which means NOTHING. In fact, getting a disease naturally in a herd could theoretically provide immunity to some degree, but so could eating right--and no deadly side effects with that!

I would tell her that her concern for disease is misplaced. The vaccines are the immediate threat once they're given. Disease is not an immediate threat if you don't vaccinate.

Winnie

Feedback response - Herd immunityVaccinations > Ok, so there is a disscussion about vax'ing, now "herd immunity" > on my local holistic mothers group. When I remarked how herd > immunity doesn't exist and was never proven a member came back > with the below response. I am just wondering if others here > have any feedback to add. I believe the termed was first coined > in the 30's with a researcher following the animals and weren't > they talking about natural immunity? Plus there is no herd > immunity with tetanus as one becomes infected from dirty soil > containing the bacterium. Polio I know is an > environmental/pollution factor. Also I didn't think small pox > even existed before the Europeans arrived so I am not sure on > her argument there. For if they had natural immunity then they > probably wouldn't have died from it. Unless she is trying to > say the Europeans outnumbered the Native Americans so the herd > immunity scales "tipped".> > > "Herd immunity can and does exist. Vaccines just don't > guarantee it. And it's not 100%. Nothing in this world is.> All that's required for herd immunity to exist is for a group of > people to not be exposed to a specific pathogen. This can be > achieved in a variety of ways. The pathogen could not be in > existence in that population. The Native Americans had herd > immunity against small pox before Europeans came here, for > example. A pathogen could essentially die out. We have herd > immunity against polio now, because no one has had it in so long > that it's essentially extinct here. Or a large enough portion > of the population is immune to said pathogen that not enough > people will be able to catch it, there fore even if one non > immune person gets it, they won't be able to spread it to > ideally anyone, or at the very least not enough people to start > an epidemic."> > > Thanks!> > Lorelei> > >

[Guest guest]

From what I understand, the man that started the concept of herd immunity was using it with re to natural immunity, not "supposed"vaccine-immunity. Cannot remember his name, dates,etc.. but do know that the pharma industry stole his concept and twisted it to back-up the whole vax support industry - and it worked, unfortunately. I have seen this info around - maybe someone can add it here - I cannot locate it right now.From: "wharrison@..."

<wharrison@...>Vaccinations Sent: Wed, February 9, 2011 5:55:18 AMSubject: Re: Feedback response - Herd immunity

I would just tell her she proved your own point: vaccines aren't 100% effective. In fact, "they" are way less (I say they because it's completely unscientific to lump all vaccines for all diseases made in all lots by all manufacturers with all of the population's various responses depending on their health status that day, their health history, genetics, etc.).

In fact, "they" at best are sometimes only 30%. In fact, "they" are only measured by antibody response which means NOTHING. In fact, getting a disease naturally in a herd could theoretically provide immunity to some degree, but so could eating right--and no deadly side effects with that!

I would tell her that her concern for disease is misplaced. The vaccines are the immediate threat once they're given. Disease is not an immediate threat if you don't vaccinate.

Winnie

Feedback response - Herd immunityVaccinations > Ok, so there is a disscussion about vax'ing, now "herd immunity" > on my local holistic mothers group. When I remarked how herd > immunity doesn't exist and was never proven a member came back > with the below response. I am just wondering if others here > have any feedback to add. I believe the termed was first coined > in the 30's with a researcher following the animals and weren't > they talking about natural immunity? Plus there is no herd > immunity with tetanus as one becomes infected from dirty soil > containing the bacterium. Polio I know is an > environmental/pollution factor. Also I didn't think small pox > even existed before the Europeans arrived so I am not sure on

> her argument there. For if they had natural immunity then they > probably wouldn't have died from it. Unless she is trying to > say the Europeans outnumbered the Native Americans so the herd > immunity scales "tipped".> > > "Herd immunity can and does exist. Vaccines just don't > guarantee it. And it's not 100%. Nothing in this world is.> All that's required for herd immunity to exist is for a group of > people to not be exposed to a specific pathogen. This can be > achieved in a variety of ways. The pathogen could not be in > existence in that population. The Native Americans had herd > immunity against small pox before Europeans came here, for > example. A pathogen could essentially die out. We have herd > immunity against polio now, because no one has had it in so long > that it's essentially extinct here. Or a large enough portion

> of the population is immune to said pathogen that not enough > people will be able to catch it, there fore even if one non > immune person gets it, they won't be able to spread it to > ideally anyone, or at the very least not enough people to start > an epidemic."> > > Thanks!> > Lorelei> > >

[Guest guest]

Right, and in "real" herd immunity, those infected would be immune. If that's X% of the population, then 100-X% would supposedly be protected. But when they pick 85% or 95%, or whatever the percent du jour is, OF those it's a lesser percentage of immunity/antibodies than would be if you had 85-95% definitely immune.

Example: pertussis. Let's pick 45% as the effectiveness rate (based on what I have researched as one of the several numbers given) and 90% as the "herd" rate needed. That translates to 40.5% "protected." I guess those other 59.5% are on their own! What to do, what to do...

Winnie Feedback response - Herd immunity> Vaccinations > > > Ok, so there is a disscussion about vax'ing, now "herd > immunity" > > on my local holistic mothers group. When I remarked how herd > > immunity doesn't exist and was never proven a member came back > > with the below response. I am just wondering if others here > > have any feedback to add. I believe the termed was first > coined > > in the 30's with a researcher following the animals and > weren't > > they talking about natural immunity? Plus there is no herd > > immunity with tetanus as one becomes infected from dirty soil > > containing the bacterium. Polio I know is an > > environmental/pollution factor. Also I didn't think small pox > > even existed before the Europeans arrived so I am not sure on > > her argument there. For if they had natural immunity then they > > probably wouldn't have died from it. Unless she is trying to > > say the Europeans outnumbered the Native Americans so the herd > > immunity scales "tipped".> > > > > > "Herd immunity can and does exist. Vaccines just don't > > guarantee it. And it's not 100%. Nothing in this world is.> > All that's required for herd immunity to exist is for a group > of > > people to not be exposed to a specific pathogen. This can be > > achieved in a variety of ways. The pathogen could not be in > > existence in that population. The Native Americans had herd > > immunity against small pox before Europeans came here, for > > example. A pathogen could essentially die out. We have herd > > immunity against polio now, because no one has had it in so > long > > that it's essentially extinct here. Or a large enough portion > > of the population is immune to said pathogen that not enough > > people will be able to catch it, there fore even if one non > > immune person gets it, they won't be able to spread it to > > ideally anyone, or at the very least not enough people to > start > > an epidemic."> > > > > > Thanks!> > > > Lorelei> > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

>

> Ok, so there is a disscussion about vax'ing, now " herd immunity " on my local

holistic mothers group.

From Sheri's website...

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/herd_immunity.html

Judith Mateo - Portland OR

[Guest guest]

For some reason I remember that the herd immunity was never proven and a myth.  I guess I should have re-phrashed as doesn't exist in terms of vaccines but to natural acquired immunity.

 

Thanks again for the link.

 

Lorelei

On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 4:23 AM, Joanna Karpasea- <shotsinfo@...> wrote:

 

The herd immunity theory does exist - it was a phrase that was coined after a 1900's study of children with measles.  The researcher, Hedrich, found that epidemics of the illness only occured if less than 68% of people developed an immunity to it.  If 68% or more were naturally immune then there would be no epidemic.  It was about the natural disease, measles, and not anything to do with vaccination.  Then pro-vaccine people took the study, applied it to vaccination and increased the 68% figure to 95% without any justification as to why and they now use this study of measles between 1900-1931 as a cheap publicity stunt for vaccination.

 

http://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/The-Herd-Immunity-Theory-Treating-Our-Children-Like-Cattle

From: victumx <lsshanklin@...>Subject: Feedback response - Herd immunity

Vaccinations Date: Wednesday, 9 February, 2011, 6:48

 

Ok, so there is a disscussion about vax'ing, now " herd immunity " on my local holistic mothers group. When I remarked how herd immunity doesn't exist and was never proven a member came back with the below response. I am just wondering if others here have any feedback to add. I believe the termed was first coined in the 30's with a researcher following the animals and weren't they talking about natural immunity? Plus there is no herd immunity with tetanus as one becomes infected from dirty soil containing the bacterium. Polio I know is an environmental/pollution factor. Also I didn't think small pox even existed before the Europeans arrived so I am not sure on her argument there. For if they had natural immunity then they probably wouldn't have died from it. Unless she is trying to say the Europeans outnumbered the Native Americans so the herd immunity scales " tipped " .

" Herd immunity can and does exist. Vaccines just don't guarantee it. And it's not 100%. Nothing in this world is.All that's required for herd immunity to exist is for a group of people to not be exposed to a specific pathogen. This can be achieved in a variety of ways. The pathogen could not be in existence in that population. The Native Americans had herd immunity against small pox before Europeans came here, for example. A pathogen could essentially die out. We have herd immunity against polio now, because no one has had it in so long that it's essentially extinct here. Or a large enough portion of the population is immune to said pathogen that not enough people will be able to catch it, there fore even if one non immune person gets it, they won't be able to spread it to ideally anyone, or at the very least not enough people to start an epidemic. "

Thanks!Lorelei

[Guest guest]

Thanks Winnie!

On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 4:55 AM, <wharrison@...> wrote:

 

I would just tell her she proved your own point: vaccines aren't 100% effective. In fact, " they " are way less (I say they because it's completely unscientific to lump all vaccines for all diseases made in all lots by all manufacturers with all of the population's various responses depending on their health status that day, their health history, genetics, etc.).

 

In fact, " they " at best are sometimes only 30%. In fact, " they " are only measured by antibody response which means NOTHING. In fact, getting a disease naturally in a herd could theoretically provide immunity to some degree, but so could eating right--and no deadly side effects with that!

 

I would tell her that her concern for disease is misplaced. The vaccines are the immediate threat once they're given. Disease is not an immediate threat if you don't vaccinate.

 

Winnie

Feedback response - Herd immunityVaccinations

> Ok, so there is a disscussion about vax'ing, now " herd immunity " > on my local holistic mothers group. When I remarked how herd > immunity doesn't exist and was never proven a member came back

> with the below response. I am just wondering if others here > have any feedback to add. I believe the termed was first coined > in the 30's with a researcher following the animals and weren't

> they talking about natural immunity? Plus there is no herd > immunity with tetanus as one becomes infected from dirty soil > containing the bacterium. Polio I know is an > environmental/pollution factor. Also I didn't think small pox

> even existed before the Europeans arrived so I am not sure on > her argument there. For if they had natural immunity then they > probably wouldn't have died from it. Unless she is trying to > say the Europeans outnumbered the Native Americans so the herd

> immunity scales " tipped " .> > > " Herd immunity can and does exist. Vaccines just don't > guarantee it. And it's not 100%. Nothing in this world is.> All that's required for herd immunity to exist is for a group of

> people to not be exposed to a specific pathogen. This can be > achieved in a variety of ways. The pathogen could not be in > existence in that population. The Native Americans had herd > immunity against small pox before Europeans came here, for

> example. A pathogen could essentially die out. We have herd > immunity against polio now, because no one has had it in so long > that it's essentially extinct here. Or a large enough portion > of the population is immune to said pathogen that not enough

> people will be able to catch it, there fore even if one non > immune person gets it, they won't be able to spread it to > ideally anyone, or at the very least not enough people to start > an epidemic. "

> > > Thanks!> > Lorelei> > >

[Guest guest]

Thanks!

On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 8:07 AM, Judith <jmateo@...> wrote:

 

>> Ok, so there is a disscussion about vax'ing, now " herd immunity " on my local holistic mothers group.

From Sheri's website...http://www.whale.to/vaccine/herd_immunity.htmlJudith Mateo - Portland OR

[Guest guest]

Well, there was support for it in the study mentioned, but only in terms of natural disease, not vaccination, as the study wasn't even about vaccination, but of course it's never been absolutely proven which is why they still call it herd immunity theory rather than herd immunity fact. Same as the germ theory, that is only a theory.

From: victumx <lsshanklin@...>Subject: Feedback response - Herd immunityVaccinations Date: Wednesday, 9 February, 2011, 6:48

Ok, so there is a disscussion about vax'ing, now "herd immunity" on my local holistic mothers group. When I remarked how herd immunity doesn't exist and was never proven a member came back with the below response. I am just wondering if others here have any feedback to add. I believe the termed was first coined in the 30's with a researcher following the animals and weren't they talking about natural immunity? Plus there is no herd immunity with tetanus as one becomes infected from dirty soil containing the bacterium. Polio I know is an environmental/pollution factor. Also I didn't think small pox even existed before the Europeans arrived so I am not sure on her argument there. For if they had natural immunity then they probably wouldn't have died from it. Unless she is trying to say the Europeans outnumbered the Native Americans so the herd immunity scales "tipped"."Herd immunity can and does exist. Vaccines just don't guarantee it. And

it's not 100%. Nothing in this world is.All that's required for herd immunity to exist is for a group of people to not be exposed to a specific pathogen. This can be achieved in a variety of ways. The pathogen could not be in existence in that population. The Native Americans had herd immunity against small pox before Europeans came here, for example. A pathogen could essentially die out. We have herd immunity against polio now, because no one has had it in so long that it's essentially extinct here. Or a large enough portion of the population is immune to said pathogen that not enough people will be able to catch it, there fore even if one non immune person gets it, they won't be able to spread it to ideally anyone, or at the very least not enough people to start an epidemic."Thanks!Lorelei

[Guest guest]

Hi

Sorry but it would not be called herd immunity fact.

Facts are information points not explanations.

For example

It is a fact that a normal tennis ball will fall if dropped, it is the

gravitational theory that explains why

The term theory in science is very different from an hypothesis, lay

people tend to use the terms interchangeably which may explain the

confusion.

Jess

[Guest guest]

I don't believe that the germ theory is anything other than a hypothesis. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that germs are the result of disease rather than the cause of it but they ignore that because it doesn't fit in with their vaccine theory.

Scientific theory is only a collection of ideas that may or may not be changed as knowledge grows and is susceptible to the bias of the scientist who thought of it. It still doesn't prove the existance of the particular theory.

Remember Louis Pasteur's death bed confession? 'The terrain is everything, the germ is nothing' - and he was one of the one's that started vaccination.

From: onlyavailableinblack <onlyavailableinblack@...>Subject: Re: Feedback response - Herd immunityVaccinations Date: Saturday, 12 February, 2011, 2:12

HiSorry but it would not be called herd immunity fact.Facts are information points not explanations.For exampleIt is a fact that a normal tennis ball will fall if dropped, it is the gravitational theory that explains whyThe term theory in science is very different from an hypothesis, lay people tend to use the terms interchangeably which may explain the confusion.Jess

[Guest guest]

Hi

<Remember Louis Pasteur's death bed confession?>

Actually that is a myth, he said no such thing.

Jess

[Guest guest]

Any reference for that??

From: onlyavailableinblack <onlyavailableinblack@...>Subject: Re: Feedback response - Herd immunityVaccinations Date: Sunday, 13 February, 2011, 18:03

Hi<Remember Louis Pasteur's death bed confession?>Actually that is a myth, he said no such thing.Jess

[Guest guest]

<Any reference for that??>

Google it and while you are there please reference the source (original

please) for the apparent confession too.

This is OT but please feel free to email privately

Jess

[Guest guest]

possibly a myth

we don't know as none of us were there

;-)

but I don't share that story as not sure its true

Sheri

>Hi

>

><Remember Louis Pasteur's death bed confession?>

>

>Actually that is a myth, he said no such thing.

>Jess

>

>

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