Re: Re: Socialism and the Pro-Vaccine Movement

[Guest guest]

That is true. McCain did publicly question vaccines, although I doubt he'll do

anything about them, either. No politician will. But I was stunned by McCain's

doing this. Still won't vote for him....

Winnie

Re: Socialism and the Pro-Vaccine Movement

Vaccinations

> Please. Socialism is the antithesis of freedom and liberty. Look at

> Britain and other socialized societies. That is where the medical

> thugs will soon be knocking down your door and jabbing your kids with

> vaccine needles. It will happen.

>

> You are speaking of a traditional society, not a socialist one. You

> can live there, but don't include me. I like modernity.

>

> Bush is not the creator of all life's problem's. He did not create

> vaccines, nor cause them to be pushed on society. The only candidate

> so far who spoke publicly against vaccines and the Pharma

> industry is

> McCain. Obama will not do a thing. When the gov't takes over health

> care...see my comments in paragraph one.

>

> Let's not delude ourselves. This is about constitutional

> liberties and

> freedom of the individual, not collectivist feel-goodery. If your

> dead, your dead; who cares if all in the community wept...

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

#<anytime the government steps in we lose a

little bit more of our freedoms. Many churches, and others, do what

you are referring to (taking care of the needs of their people,

helping them, caring for them, feeding them etc.) That is the way it

should be. That is freedom. People are so used to the government

stepping in and " taking care " of problems - so it makes it easier to

think we don't need to help out/ " love thy neighbor " and so on. >#

no, its a really good analogy you have sbailey.  i agree with you 100%  ... the

government has bought our freedom with the so called assistance it provides

(welfare, social security, medicaid, etc.).  it has made us so comfortable

in thinking that we are getting something for nothing.  when in fact, the less

we depend on their system the better off we may be.

Arianna Mojica -   (UCC 1-207/1-103) 

~~~ " All rights not demanded are presumed waived " . ~ Thurston

~~~ " The only safe vaccine is a vaccine that is never used " -- Dr. A.

, National Institutes of Health

~~~A truth¢s initial commotion is directly proportional to how deeply the lie

was believed...When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the

masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its

speaker, a raving lunatic. " Dresden

www.vaclib.org 

www.909shot.com

 http://www.vacinfo.org/

http://www.vran.org/

http://www.momtoanangel.net/ingred.htm

 

http://www.moorbows.com/

From: sbailey <liverbaileys@...>

Subject: Re: Socialism and the Pro-Vaccine Movement

Vaccinations

Date: Monday, August 25, 2008, 2:12 PM

Well, I like the " idea " but

Socialized medicine is raved about by so many who have never

experienced it (and many of those that have experienced it and love

it are happy with what their doctors tell them to do and are glad it

is " free " ). My sister in law (Canadian) loved how it worked in

Canada - but she never had any serious need for a doctor so waiting

for months was no big deal to her. The more socialized medicine gets

the less freedoms we will have concerning our health. Look at how

bad it already is?!!

Side note: Why should mothers get paid time off? Why should

employers be forced to pay for someone who isn't working by choice?

Sorry, but I don't agree with much of your post. The US isn't about

the government providing for people (or shouldn't be). That should

be at local levels (private, volunteered, churches, groups etc)

Lesotho sounds like a wonderful place - but I don't think most of the

world want to live in a village - You mention " adopting more

policies " ? How about less government interference?

You said:

I think we just need to keep in mind that we

> will 'always' have some sort of say in what is right for our

> children, and it is not always wise to scare ourselves into

believing

> what is most likely not going to happen. (but oh how I wish it

> would!)

Not if there are changes like the ones you are proposing!

I realize I am getting a little off the topic of vaccinations, but in

a roundabout way it goes right back to personal choice and

vaccinations.

> I lived in Southern Africa for many years and would love to see

some

> in my community give up a little piece of their pie for the good of

> humanity. Many are so selfish in the US.

Any many are not. Nobody in my church goes hungry (very large

church, world wide) and everyone donates regularly large pieces of

pie for the good of others. I'm just not willing to donate any pie

to government style of pie......... and often when they make the pie,

I'm not hungry for that flavor and don't want it forced on me!

(Yeah, really bad analogy!!)

Okay - I'm done

> >

> > The Pro-Vaccine Movement is about sacrificing yourself or your

> child

> > for the sake of the " herd " . I think we can all agree on that and

> the

> > fact that every vaccine has the potential to kill. It is about

> > stripping you of your rights as a citizen for the " sake of your

> fellow

> > man " .

> >

> > Some people may not be aware of this alarming fact.

Obama

> was

> > quoted as saying that others should be willing to give up " their

> piece

> > of the pie " . That is called Socialism. Not only does that

> mentality

> > apply to the Vaccine Program, but all other areas as well - your

> life,

> > your property, etc. I am not telling anyone who they should vote

> for,

> > but I am only trying to share some further insight on this

> insane " Pro-

> > Vaccine Movement " and the further impact it would have on our

> society.

> > Also, ask yourself why our major news outlets have been

supporting

> > Obama all along. These are the same news agencies that refuse to

> speak

> > negatively about vaccines too.

> >

> > It also reminds me of China. Not long ago, the citizens accepted

> the

> > fact that they were only allowed one child due to the impact

their

> > growing population was having on their country. People actually

> > accepted this and many began throwing their newborn girls away

with

> the

> > hope that their next child would be a boy to carry on their

family

> > name. Again, this is what these people are all about - society

> giving

> > up their rights (piece of the pie) for the sake of their fellow

man.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Russ,  I totally agree - I believe we are headed for fascism.  I never

thought I would say it, but we are moving closer and closer to that point.  The

very officials we vote into office - are stealing our freedoms and we are paying

them to do it...ironic isn't it?  Similar situation with the vaccine industry -

we pay them to vaccinate our children - our children are damaged - and then we

the taxpayers - pay the damages caused by toxic vaccines.  I don't know about

you, but I feel fairly duped!    Janet

From: Russ H <dc60832@...>

Subject: Re: Socialism and the Pro-Vaccine Movement

Vaccinations

Date: Monday, August 25, 2008, 7:21 PM

I would have to disagree with the title of this thread. As I read

the

underlying message of this thread; that we are loosing our personal

freedoms for the sake of profiteering and other posts proclaiming huge

financial gains for Big Pharma, and the militant tactics of public

protection agencies, I don't believe we are heading for socialism.

Socialism's goal is generally to balance the distribution of wealth

throughout the population. What is being described is Fascism.

Fascism is characterized by a strong central government and laws

controlled by and for big industry (the real interest of the

government), often at the expense of the public wellbeing, all under

the banner of patriotism/national ism. Sound familiar. The situation

in Australia we've been reading about certainly sounds like Gestapo

tactics to me. Think it can't happen here? Don't fool yourself.

I apologize if this has gotten off topic, just had to get that off my

chest.

Russ

> > >

> > > The Pro-Vaccine Movement is about sacrificing yourself or your

> > child

> > > for the sake of the " herd " . I think we can all agree on that and

> > the

> > > fact that every vaccine has the potential to kill. It is about

> > > stripping you of your rights as a citizen for the " sake of your

> > fellow

> > > man " .

> > >

> > > Some people may not be aware of this alarming fact.

> Obama

> > was

> > > quoted as saying that others should be willing to give up " their

> > piece

> > > of the pie " . That is called Socialism. Not only does that

> > mentality

> > > apply to the Vaccine Program, but all other areas as well - your

> > life,

> > > your property, etc. I am not telling anyone who they should vote

> > for,

> > > but I am only trying to share some further insight on this

> > insane " Pro-

> > > Vaccine Movement " and the further impact it would have on our

> > society.

> > > Also, ask yourself why our major news outlets have been

> supporting

> > > Obama all along. These are the same news agencies that refuse to

> > speak

> > > negatively about vaccines too.

> > >

> > > It also reminds me of China. Not long ago, the citizens accepted

> > the

> > > fact that they were only allowed one child due to the impact

> their

> > > growing population was having on their country. People actually

> > > accepted this and many began throwing their newborn girls away

> with

> > the

> > > hope that their next child would be a boy to carry on their

> family

> > > name. Again, this is what these people are all about - society

> > giving

> > > up their rights (piece of the pie) for the sake of their fellow

> man.

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Communism & fascism are both anti-freedom, totalitarian, so let's put them where

they belong - TOGETHER at the opposite end of the spectrum to freedom.. Both

require the sacrifice of chldren, livelihoods etc. I live in a socialist country

and our freedoms are being eroded just as fast as as any of the fascist states.

The name matters not a whit when one's freedom is at stake. It is

totalitarianism.

 

My so-called piece of the pie is taken up doing the best I can for a

vaccine-injured adult son. I give to charities of MY choosing and the govt

threatens me with fines and imprisonment if I don't pay taxes to expand

their  " kingdom "  .

 

They want to buy vaccines with my piece of the pie to give to other people who

don't yet know the truth. They make me pay for their propaganda that makes the

ignorant attack me and mine for knowing the truth.They use my piece of the pie

to kill 18000pa babies in the womb, without my consent or approval. They use my

piece of the pie to " educate " children in a state system that turns children

into informers and seriously impairs their critical thinking faculties. They use

my piece of pie to hunt down parents who choose not to force chemo on their

children.

 

There is no balance at all - we have thousands on " waiting " lists for med

treatment - if you put them all in a queue outside the hospital doors it would

be just like a Stalinist food queue, except here, they wait for 6 months and are

unceremoniously dumped off the list.

 

  People die waiting for treatment - the only positive is that many then seek

alternatives, which, of course, all governments of all " persuasions " are

attempting to shut down.

 

If I take an animal to the vet, I get immediate & better service, because there

is no government interference, except, of course, in " registration " and

micro-chipping of animals.

 

Socialism appears to be just another name for communism, a polite term so we

don't scare the punters.

 

No apologies needed. I did suggest it go to OT4VAX but nothing seems to have

happened there.

Marcuja

From: Russ H <dc60832@...>

Subject: Re: Socialism and the Pro-Vaccine Movement

Vaccinations

Date: Monday, August 25, 2008, 4:21 PM

I would have to disagree with the title of this thread. As I read the

underlying message of this thread; that we are loosing our personal

freedoms for the sake of profiteering and other posts proclaiming huge

financial gains for Big Pharma, and the militant tactics of public

protection agencies, I don't believe we are heading for socialism.

Socialism's goal is generally to balance the distribution of wealth

throughout the population. What is being described is Fascism.

Fascism is characterized by a strong central government and laws

controlled by and for big industry (the real interest of the

government), often at the expense of the public wellbeing, all under

the banner of patriotism/national ism. Sound familiar. The situation

in Australia we've been reading about certainly sounds like Gestapo

tactics to me. Think it can't happen here? Don't fool yourself.

I apologize if this has gotten off topic, just had to get that off my

chest.

Russ

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[Guest guest]

Hi Folks

I don't understand why you call it health care. In the good old U.S. of A we

don't have health care. We have disease care. You see health care is all about

living right. That means eating mostly LIVE foods, exercising and thinking in a

positive manner. Your right we do have one of the worst health care systems in

the world. However I don't know what they have in other parts of the world

except Canada but any system that treats symptons by poisioning the body or

cutting out vital organs has to be on the botton of any health care list I have

no misconception about socialized allopathic medicine. The only time in my life

I ever had health insurance was when I sold it. Then it was given to me as a

benefit? I knew when me or my children were to get " sick " we would not waste our

time or money taking poisons or having our vital organs cut out.  I learned this

the hard way when I was young and ignorant and my daughter paid for it with her

life. Again you are

correct when you state that " large corporations are more interested in our

money than our health. Another reason to avoid them. People don't live longer in

other countries because they are taking allopathic drugs but because they take

care of themselves. Something we Americans are going to have to learn or suffer

the fatal results. My son is grown, it is your childen that I am concerned

about.

Even if the Allopaths gave the drugs free to everyone, the result would be the

same. Sick and dead people caused by the treatment. This government no longer

works for we the people and most people are afraid or indifferent. That's why we

are in a bus headed for a cliff. In case you haven't noticed scare tactics are

exactly what  allopathic/drug/government is all about.  I don't think you should

run from this list. I invite you to stick around and learn the truth. When you

do maybe you will join all the other brave folks on this list and 1000s of

others now joining together to make the change to have a truly healthy country.

Let us have truth though the heavens may fall.H.Shelton

Jim

Re: Socialism and the Pro-Vaccine Movement

Hello everyone,

I don't think I am off topic here (health care/vaccines) but if I am

I apologize. I needed to take a minute to respond after the replies

I've been reading about socialism and pro-vaccine movement etc.

I do not vaccinate and have found some good advice and information on

this site. However, I was very very shocked to read the responses

about this issue. So much that I realize now that this may not be

the group for me (my husband helped me realize that after I couldn't

talk about anything else last week)

I feel there is a huge misconception about universal health care and

am so amazed that there was not even one response advocating it. As

far as I'm concerned, we have one of the worst health care systems in

the developed world...I pay almost as much PER MONTH for health care

as for my mortgage..and then it doesn't even begin to cover until we

pay $400 per person. Our system is one that is run by large

corporations who are more interested in making money than in keeping

people healthy.

Other 1st world countries with universal health care live longer

lives, have significantly better infant mortality rates and are just

healthier in general. There are problems with every system and there

will be people who like or dislike the system they are in. However,

what we have is FAR from the answer and to say that one child (yours

only) is the important one and forget those people who can't afford

to take their kids to the doctor because their premiums are too high

is wrong in my opinion.

People with universal health care do not have compulsory

vaccinations. They (the governments) think about it every now and

then (just like our country does), but they are still democratic

societies where the people have a say. We should not EVER be afraid

of our government.. .they are working for US, not the other way

around...and if anyone feels afraid of their government (which many

of your replies sounded), they should do something NOW to change it.

To compare universal health care (a socialized system...much like our

police and fire service) to totalitarianism and dictatorships seems

like such an unnecessary scare tactic.

I am on another forum (holistic moms network) and a similar topic

came up. I am going to attach a couple of the messages here because

I think they are relevant to health care and vaccines in

general...plus, these individuals can probably say it better than

anything I could say myself...(sorry this is so long - hopefully some

of you will have a chance to read it all)

Peace,

(by the way, this was in response to a woman voicing concerns about

universal health care)

RESPONSE #1

The article really is interesting. Although in respond to your email

I must say:

coming from the Soviet Union, where a healthcare system used to have

all of the

doctors paid equally, believe it or not - it worked much better than

what we

have here in the States. People had no interest in money, whereas

here, the

doctors are the ones that make you sick with all these antibiotics

being given

to us and our children the day we are born here (hey, the

vaccinations alone are

a very sensitive subject here, but the doctors have calendar to

follow, so they

follow and nobody cares what is going to happen to your child later

on). In that

system, the doctors would want to see you only when you really have

to be seen,

not when he or she can make money out of each of your visits!

I'm 32 year old and have no insurance, so is my husband, so is my 16

mo old son.

We all see homeopath. We can't afford the insurance to begin with,

and we don't

want to have it too. It's pointless!

I know my response will fire up some emails, but hey, you wanted us

to think,

here is my thinking and no offense to anybody!

RESPONSE #2

I'm from South Korea. We've had a government single payer system for

3 decades

and it's infinitely better than what Americans have here.. All the

foreigners

who are staying in Korea say the healthcare system in korea is

awesome. The

doctors are very experienced and skilled in what they specialized and

it's

affordable. You might not get personal service like doctor spending

1 hour just

talking to you. But you get your purpose. You see a doctor who's

knowledgable

and your illness is treated. Gov't healthcare system is not about

doctors who

get paid the same no matter what their performance are, it's about

replacing

'for-profit' insurers with 'non-for-profit' government single paying

system.

Sure, some doctors complain they don't get paid that much, so they

make money by

seeing more patients. But we can correct that by paying doctors

reasonable

amount in Korea. In Korea, tooth extraction by dentist is 7 dollars

per tooth.

Of course it

wasn't a sleep induced anethesic operation. It was really a tooth

pulling. But

I got my 3 teeth taken care of just fine and healthy now. versus

what I would

paid in America (1100 dollars)

Because doctors treat more people in their practice, they are much

more

skillfull from experience. And rich people still can go to the best

hospital in

the country and still get much better service and their rooms. The

rich can

still get the best service and treatment option available. For

people who have

money, you don't have to suffer from the inadequate service. Medical

community

still can offer tiered services for those who want to pay more. It's

only fair.

In the end, the more people are healthier as a general population,

you'd

benefit, too. Who knows what kind of illnesses your upscale

restaurant food

prep worker has when you dine out? How much of a sheltered life can

you really

have avoiding low-income folks in your life? If more people are

healthier, the

country is wealthier for their productivity. American medical costs

are so

exorbitant now. Millions are afraid of not having insurance and can't

leave

their work even if they

hate their jobs because of the insurance. It doesn't sound like the

life of one

of the best, the most powerful, the richest country in the world.

sihyang

RESPONSE #3

There are a many misconceptions about so-called " universal health

care " . Dennis Kucinich is one of the few politicians who is advocating

a single payer system as Sihyang is describing.

It roughly works like this:

-everyone pays a percentage of their income (I paid 12% when I worked

in Germany) which is matched by the employer. So the premium is

proportionate to your income.

-the government regulates how much a doctor can charge the subscribers

of the state regulated insurance, so everyone gets the same service.

No bills. Just go to the doctor and swipe your card. The 12% of your

income are your contribution to the system.

-if you lose your job and receive unemployment, you get the state

health insurance. Same thing. Swipe your card. No bills.

-Go to the doctor of your choice (no HMOs, no provider directory),

just go to who you think is the best doctor.

-full dental care is included automatically.

-of course there is private insurance for the rich. That allows the

doctors to charge more, you get an appointment faster, you get a

better hospital room etc. but this is only allowed if you make a

minimum salary and do not financially 'depend' on the system.

It basically allows no one to fall through the cracks.

I think the argument that such a system lowers the quality of health

care is wrong. On the contrary, if anything lowers the quality its

HMOs. If a doctor in a single payer system doesn't do right by the

patients and they stop coming, s/he simply has to find a new career.

With HMOs, you're dealing with a corporation that has one priority:

maximizing profits.

In a single payer system, health insurance companies do everything to

keep their customers healthy and there is a lot of preventive care. My

sister, who lives in Germany, recently took a free pilates class

through her insurance company. They give out free stuff like the nasal

irrigaton system to prevent/treat colds, etc. I won't even start on

maternity care...

Just this much: My sister had her second gentle homebirth on Thursday.

Her first was attended by the OB/GYN and the midwife, the second by

the midwife alone. For the next 14 days, the midwife will check on her

and the baby everyday, do the exams, etc all in her home. All part of

the system. The only extra costs was for the midwife to be on call for

her birth (instead of in the hospital, which would have been 'free')

something like 300 Euro...

There's a lot more to the single payer system than just regulating how

much doctors can charge. And yes, my friends who are doctors may not

make as much (especially if they work in hospitals), but they knew

that when they went to medical school and, therefore, something other

than money motivated them to become doctors in the first place.

RESPONSE #4

Thanks for sharing your first hand experience on this subject. We

here in the U.S. are under some delusion that our system, flawed as

it is in some cases, is the best. The reality is that national

healthcare works very well in most instances. I have family in France

and in Israel and in both cases, even during the most trying economic

times, they have never had to worry about whether they had access to

healthcare. In addition, cutting edge cancer treatment in Israel

saved my aunt's life. Had she lived here, I'm certain the treatment

would not have been available to her and she wouldn't be here today.

Furthermore, when people suggest that folks from other countries are

rushing to the states for their healthcare because it's better

here ???? The same goes the other way. People routinely leave the

States for state of the art therapies only performed in Europe.

With regard to surgical techniques, we're probably doing better than

most. We have incredible facilities for reconstructive surgeries and

orthopedic surgeries but with regard to immune-based medical issues --

- we fall way short.

Our national healthcare system is wrought with serious issues. When

it costs a family of four as much for their healthcare insurance

monthly as it does for their mortgage, there is something seriously

wrong. When an insurance company can refuse to provide healthcare to

a family or individual and use allergies whcih periodically cause

asthmatic reactions as a basis to refuse coverage, something is

seriously wrong. When doctors are forced to spend only five minutes

with each patient because to spend more time would cut into their

ability to make a healthy living, something is seriously wrong. When

a doctor immediately takes his prescription pad out and writes a

script for an anti-psychotic medication approved for adolescents and

adults when you're trying to figure out why your six year old child's

behavior has recently become problematic, something is seriously

wrong (by the way, the problems with behavior were resolved through

dietary changes).

The focus on our country's " healthcare system " is profit driven.

Profit for the insurance companies, profit for the pharmaceutical

companies. The more drugs we take, the sicker we get, the more drugs

we have to take to counter the additional ill effects, the richer

they get, the poorer we get, the less time we have to fight with the

very system that placed all this in motion.

This is not a health care system that we're working with. It's a get

rich quick scheme for health insurance companies and drug

manufacturers. We are forced to do everything we can to make sure

that we Never, Ever have to set foot in a hospital.

Tali

[Guest guest]

I really hope you don't leave the group based on a few exchanges about a

different topic. I think the reason you didn't hear any responses pro-universal

health care is precisely because this is a forum to talk about vaccines, and the

few people who were in interested about socialism, etc. had their say and that

was that.

I am certainly with you on the high cost of insurance premiums but I don't have

any answers on that other than I try not to give docs the business.

Winnie

Re: Socialism and the Pro-Vaccine Movement

Vaccinations

> Hello everyone,

> I don't think I am off topic here (health care/vaccines) but if

> I am

> I apologize. I needed to take a minute to respond after the

> replies

> I've been reading about socialism and pro-vaccine movement etc.

>

> I do not vaccinate and have found some good advice and

> information on

> this site. However, I was very very shocked to read the

> responses

> about this issue. So much that I realize now that this may not

> be

> the group for me (my husband helped me realize that after I

> couldn't

> talk about anything else last week)

>

> I feel there is a huge misconception about universal health care

> and

> am so amazed that there was not even one response advocating it.

> As

> far as I'm concerned, we have one of the worst health care

> systems in

> the developed world...I pay almost as much PER MONTH for health

> care

> as for my mortgage..and then it doesn't even begin to cover

> until we

> pay $400 per person. Our system is one that is run by large

> corporations who are more interested in making money than in

> keeping

> people healthy.

>

> Other 1st world countries with universal health care live longer

> lives, have significantly better infant mortality rates and are

> just

> healthier in general. There are problems with every system and

> there

> will be people who like or dislike the system they are in.

> However,

> what we have is FAR from the answer and to say that one child

> (yours

> only) is the important one and forget those people who can't

> afford

> to take their kids to the doctor because their premiums are too

> high

> is wrong in my opinion.

>

> People with universal health care do not have compulsory

> vaccinations. They (the governments) think about it every now

> and

> then (just like our country does), but they are still democratic

> societies where the people have a say. We should not EVER be

> afraid

> of our government...they are working for US, not the other way

> around...and if anyone feels afraid of their government (which

> many

> of your replies sounded), they should do something NOW to change

> it.

> To compare universal health care (a socialized system...much

> like our

> police and fire service) to totalitarianism and dictatorships

> seems

> like such an unnecessary scare tactic.

>

> I am on another forum (holistic moms network) and a similar

> topic

> came up. I am going to attach a couple of the messages here

> because

> I think they are relevant to health care and vaccines in

> general...plus, these individuals can probably say it better

> than

> anything I could say myself...(sorry this is so long - hopefully

> some

> of you will have a chance to read it all)

>

> Peace,

>

>

> (by the way, this was in response to a woman voicing concerns

> about

> universal health care)

>

>

> RESPONSE #1

> The article really is interesting. Although in respond to your

> email

> I must say:

> coming from the Soviet Union, where a healthcare system used to

> have

> all of the

> doctors paid equally, believe it or not - it worked much better

> than

> what we

> have here in the States. People had no interest in money,

> whereas

> here, the

> doctors are the ones that make you sick with all these

> antibiotics

> being given

> to us and our children the day we are born here (hey, the

> vaccinations alone are

> a very sensitive subject here, but the doctors have calendar to

> follow, so they

> follow and nobody cares what is going to happen to your child

> later

> on). In that

> system, the doctors would want to see you only when you really

> have

> to be seen,

> not when he or she can make money out of each of your visits!

> I'm 32 year old and have no insurance, so is my husband, so is

> my 16

> mo old son.

> We all see homeopath. We can't afford the insurance to begin

> with,

> and we don't

> want to have it too. It's pointless!

> I know my response will fire up some emails, but hey, you wanted

> us

> to think,

> here is my thinking and no offense to anybody!

>

>

> RESPONSE #2

>

> I'm from South Korea. We've had a government single payer system

> for

> 3 decades

> and it's infinitely better than what Americans have here. All

> the

> foreigners

> who are staying in Korea say the healthcare system in korea is

> awesome. The

> doctors are very experienced and skilled in what they

> specialized and

> it's

> affordable. You might not get personal service like doctor

> spending

> 1 hour just

> talking to you. But you get your purpose. You see a doctor

> who's

> knowledgable

> and your illness is treated. Gov't healthcare system is not

> about

> doctors who

> get paid the same no matter what their performance are, it's

> about

> replacing

> 'for-profit' insurers with 'non-for-profit' government single

> paying

> system.

> Sure, some doctors complain they don't get paid that much, so

> they

> make money by

> seeing more patients. But we can correct that by paying doctors

> reasonable

> amount in Korea. In Korea, tooth extraction by dentist is 7

> dollars

> per tooth.

> Of course it

> wasn't a sleep induced anethesic operation. It was really a

> tooth

> pulling. But

> I got my 3 teeth taken care of just fine and healthy now.

> versus

> what I would

> paid in America (1100 dollars)

>

> Because doctors treat more people in their practice, they are

> much

> more

> skillfull from experience. And rich people still can go to the

> best

> hospital in

> the country and still get much better service and their rooms.

> The

> rich can

> still get the best service and treatment option available. For

> people who have

> money, you don't have to suffer from the inadequate service.

> Medical

> community

> still can offer tiered services for those who want to pay more.

> It's

> only fair.

> In the end, the more people are healthier as a general

> population,

> you'd

> benefit, too. Who knows what kind of illnesses your upscale

> restaurant food

> prep worker has when you dine out? How much of a sheltered life

> can

> you really

> have avoiding low-income folks in your life? If more people are

> healthier, the

> country is wealthier for their productivity. American medical

> costs

> are so

> exorbitant now. Millions are afraid of not having insurance and

> can't

> leave

> their work even if they

> hate their jobs because of the insurance. It doesn't sound like

> the

> life of one

> of the best, the most powerful, the richest country in the

> world.

>

> sihyang

>

>

> RESPONSE #3

>

> There are a many misconceptions about so-called " universal health

> care " . Dennis Kucinich is one of the few politicians who is advocating

> a single payer system as Sihyang is describing.

>

> It roughly works like this:

> -everyone pays a percentage of their income (I paid 12% when I worked

> in Germany) which is matched by the employer. So the premium is

> proportionate to your income.

> -the government regulates how much a doctor can charge the subscribers

> of the state regulated insurance, so everyone gets the same service.

> No bills. Just go to the doctor and swipe your card. The 12% of your

> income are your contribution to the system.

> -if you lose your job and receive unemployment, you get the state

> health insurance. Same thing. Swipe your card. No bills.

> -Go to the doctor of your choice (no HMOs, no provider directory),

> just go to who you think is the best doctor.

> -full dental care is included automatically.

> -of course there is private insurance for the rich. That allows the

> doctors to charge more, you get an appointment faster, you get a

> better hospital room etc. but this is only allowed if you make a

> minimum salary and do not financially 'depend' on the system.

>

> It basically allows no one to fall through the cracks.

>

> I think the argument that such a system lowers the quality of health

> care is wrong. On the contrary, if anything lowers the quality its

> HMOs. If a doctor in a single payer system doesn't do right by the

> patients and they stop coming, s/he simply has to find a new career.

> With HMOs, you're dealing with a corporation that has one priority:

> maximizing profits.

>

> In a single payer system, health insurance companies do

> everything to

> keep their customers healthy and there is a lot of preventive

> care. My

> sister, who lives in Germany, recently took a free pilates class

> through her insurance company. They give out free stuff like the nasal

> irrigaton system to prevent/treat colds, etc. I won't even start on

> maternity care...

>

> Just this much: My sister had her second gentle homebirth on Thursday.

> Her first was attended by the OB/GYN and the midwife, the second by

> the midwife alone. For the next 14 days, the midwife will check

> on her

> and the baby everyday, do the exams, etc all in her home. All

> part of

> the system. The only extra costs was for the midwife to be on

> call for

> her birth (instead of in the hospital, which would have been 'free')

> something like 300 Euro...

>

> There's a lot more to the single payer system than just

> regulating how

> much doctors can charge. And yes, my friends who are doctors may not

> make as much (especially if they work in hospitals), but they knew

> that when they went to medical school and, therefore, something other

> than money motivated them to become doctors in the first place.

>

>

> RESPONSE #4

>

> Thanks for sharing your first hand experience on this subject.

> We

> here in the U.S. are under some delusion that our system, flawed

> as

> it is in some cases, is the best. The reality is that national

> healthcare works very well in most instances. I have family in

> France

> and in Israel and in both cases, even during the most trying

> economic

> times, they have never had to worry about whether they had

> access to

> healthcare. In addition, cutting edge cancer treatment in Israel

> saved my aunt's life. Had she lived here, I'm certain the

> treatment

> would not have been available to her and she wouldn't be here

> today.

> Furthermore, when people suggest that folks from other countries

> are

> rushing to the states for their healthcare because it's better

> here ???? The same goes the other way. People routinely leave

> the

> States for state of the art therapies only performed in Europe.

>

> With regard to surgical techniques, we're probably doing better

> than

> most. We have incredible facilities for reconstructive surgeries

> and

> orthopedic surgeries but with regard to immune-based medical

> issues --

> - we fall way short.

>

> Our national healthcare system is wrought with serious issues.

> When

> it costs a family of four as much for their healthcare insurance

> monthly as it does for their mortgage, there is something

> seriously

> wrong. When an insurance company can refuse to provide

> healthcare to

> a family or individual and use allergies whcih periodically

> cause

> asthmatic reactions as a basis to refuse coverage, something is

> seriously wrong. When doctors are forced to spend only five

> minutes

> with each patient because to spend more time would cut into

> their

> ability to make a healthy living, something is seriously wrong.

> When

> a doctor immediately takes his prescription pad out and writes a

> script for an anti-psychotic medication approved for adolescents

> and

> adults when you're trying to figure out why your six year old

> child's

> behavior has recently become problematic, something is seriously

> wrong (by the way, the problems with behavior were resolved

> through

> dietary changes).

>

> The focus on our country's " healthcare system " is profit driven.

> Profit for the insurance companies, profit for the

> pharmaceutical

> companies. The more drugs we take, the sicker we get, the more

> drugs

> we have to take to counter the additional ill effects, the

> richer

> they get, the poorer we get, the less time we have to fight with

> the

> very system that placed all this in motion.

>

> This is not a health care system that we're working with. It's a

> get

> rich quick scheme for health insurance companies and drug

> manufacturers. We are forced to do everything we can to make

> sure

> that we Never, Ever have to set foot in a hospital.

>

> Tali

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry, I haven't responded as this thread started while I was

traveling and haven't gotten into those emails yet.

>I feel there is a huge misconception about universal health care and

>am so amazed that there was not even one response advocating it. As

>far as I'm concerned, we have one of the worst health care systems in

>the developed world...I pay almost as much PER MONTH for health care

>as for my mortgage..and then it doesn't even begin to cover until we

>pay $400 per person. Our system is one that is run by large

>corporations who are more interested in making money than in keeping

>people healthy.

I agree totally.

If you just watch 's SICKO you will start to see what

they don't want you to see (including all the extra info on the DVD)

>Other 1st world countries with universal health care live longer

>lives, have significantly better infant mortality rates and are just

>healthier in general.

EXACTLY

>People with universal health care do not have compulsory

>vaccinations.

Pretty much - although there are exceptions such as France and

eastern European countries.

> They (the governments) think about it every now and

>then (just like our country does), but they are still democratic

>societies where the people have a say. We should not EVER be afraid

>of our government...they are working for US, not the other way

>around...and if anyone feels afraid of their government (which many

>of your replies sounded), they should do something NOW to change it.

>To compare universal health care (a socialized system...much like our

>police and fire service) to totalitarianism and dictatorships seems

>like such an unnecessary scare tactic.

Exactly

I'm glad you are speaking out.

>I am on another forum (holistic moms network) and a similar topic

>came up. I am going to attach a couple of the messages here because

>I think they are relevant to health care and vaccines in

>general...plus, these individuals can probably say it better than

>anything I could say myself...(sorry this is so long - hopefully some

>of you will have a chance to read it all)

Thanks SO much for sharing those comments at the end.

Everyone see SICKO and also watch all the other shorter segments as

EXTRAS on the DVD

Also see what they do in Norway to criminals...................that

will shock you. It was so shocking that didn't dare

include it in the movie because he thought everyone would disregard

the whole movie as unbelievable if that was in there (it is true by the way)

Thank you so much for speaking out.

You are exactly right.

Sheri

PS - the only problem with universal health care is that is still

mostly 'disease' care and rarely includes homeopathy by quality

homeopaths (UK requires them to be MD homeopaths), acupuncture,

chiropractic, etc. Although I could be wrong. I do know in Europe,

spa therapy is included - a few weeks or a month at a health spa for

healing - now that's civilized.

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, former R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

Vaccines - http://www.wellwithin1.com/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers & Homeopathy Online/email courses - next classes Sept 08

[Guest guest]

At 02:27 PM 9/3/2008, you wrote:

>just adding my 2 cents here. I have experienced universal health

>care, in Taiwan. IT IS NOT A GOOD THING!! The care if very poor.

>The doctor are very specifically trained- meaning if your problem

>lies outside their flow chart they give you a shot and move in-

>oretending it will fix everything.

Of course different countries will be different and they ALL are

disease-care, not health care.

>They REQUIRE vaccs, checkups,

>etc. The doctors give vaccs for everything at the drop of a hat-

>because it is the " quickest " way to cure the children so parents can

>return to work.

How does a vax cure a child?

> Universal healthcare is CONTROLLED healthcare. The

>optomotrists, dentists, etc are all the same!!! They cannot think

>for themselves to solve complicated complaints. They prescribe meds

>and vaccs and call it a day.

>

>People in 3rd world countries live longer for many reasons, they have

>lower infant mortality rate because they usually birth at HOME!!!

>They eat wholesome foods, raw foods, etc! They work hard, they have

>excercise in their daily survival. People in America used to live

>longer too. Infant mortality rate was lower as well. It has very

>little to do with universal healthcare. Although I admit that AIDS

>info getting into these countries is very important. I'm done now.

>thanks-christina

All the AIDS info is lies and will only kill more

See http://www.wellwithin1.com/AIDS.ht

Thanks for your valid points, otherwise though

Sheri

>

> >

> > Okay, if this is what this list is coming to, I don't know if I

>belong

> > here. If people think universal health care is the answer, yeah,

>good

> > luck with that. I don't want any part of that. You think the

> > government is in our business now, just wait and see what will

>happen

> > with that. Yes, our health care system needs some fixing in the US;

> > with that I agree. I know our costs are skyrocketing too. I don't

>have

> > the answers - I wish I did, but socialistic government is not it.

> > Some of the topics lately on here have become, well, not my cup of

>tea

> > to say the least. I'm on here to learn about vaccines and I've been

>a

> > little disheartened lately with the topics and some of the responses

> > to topics. Some people have come on here with dire questions and

> > others have really gotten rude with them. At least, that's my

>feelings

> > about it. I know people all have different ideas and experiences but

> > shouldn't we all be civil with our responses?

> > I'm not giving specifics because I don't want to knitpick any

>certain

> > topics and make people feel uncomfortable.

> >

> > I hope things get back on track because I have really liked this

>group

> > and have learned A LOT. However, lately I just feel a little out of

> > place here and questioning whether or not I really belong.

> >

> >

> > > > Hello everyone,

> > > > I don't think I am off topic here (health care/vaccines) but if

>I am

> > > > I apologize. I needed to take a minute to respond after the

>replies

> > > > I've been reading about socialism and pro-vaccine movement

>etc.

> > > >

> > > > I do not vaccinate and have found some good advice and

>information on

> > > > this site. However, I was very very shocked to read the

>responses

> > > > about this issue. So much that I realize now that this may not

>be

> > > > the group for me (my husband helped me realize that after I

>couldn't

> > > > talk about anything else last week)

> > > >

> > > > I feel there is a huge misconception about universal health

>care and

> > > > am so amazed that there was not even one response advocating

>it. As

> > > > far as I'm concerned, we have one of the worst health care

>systems in

> > > > the developed world...I pay almost as much PER MONTH for health

>care

> > > > as for my mortgage..and then it doesn't even begin to cover

>until we

> > > > pay $400 per person. Our system is one that is run by large

> > > > corporations who are more interested in making money than in

>keeping

> > > > people healthy.

> > > >

> > > > Other 1st world countries with universal health care live

>longer

> > > > lives, have significantly better infant mortality rates and are

>just

> > > > healthier in general. There are problems with every system and

>there

> > > > will be people who like or dislike the system they are in.

>However,

> > > > what we have is FAR from the answer and to say that one child

>(yours

> > > > only) is the important one and forget those people who can't

>afford

> > > > to take their kids to the doctor because their premiums are too

>high

> > > > is wrong in my opinion.

> > > >

> > > > People with universal health care do not have compulsory

> > > > vaccinations. They (the governments) think about it every now

>and

> > > > then (just like our country does), but they are still

>democratic

> > > > societies where the people have a say. We should not EVER be

>afraid

> > > > of our government...they are working for US, not the other way

> > > > around...and if anyone feels afraid of their government (which

>many

> > > > of your replies sounded), they should do something NOW to

>change it.

> > > > To compare universal health care (a socialized system...much

>like our

> > > > police and fire service) to totalitarianism and dictatorships

>seems

> > > > like such an unnecessary scare tactic.

> > > >

> > > > I am on another forum (holistic moms network) and a similar

>topic

> > > > came up. I am going to attach a couple of the messages here

>because

> > > > I think they are relevant to health care and vaccines in

> > > > general...plus, these individuals can probably say it better

>than

> > > > anything I could say myself...(sorry this is so long -

>hopefully some

> > > > of you will have a chance to read it all)

> > > >

> > > > Peace,

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > (by the way, this was in response to a woman voicing concerns

>about

> > > > universal health care)

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > RESPONSE #1

> > > > The article really is interesting. Although in respond to your

>email

> > > > I must say:

> > > > coming from the Soviet Union, where a healthcare system used to

>have

> > > > all of the

> > > > doctors paid equally, believe it or not - it worked much better

>than

> > > > what we

> > > > have here in the States. People had no interest in money,

>whereas

> > > > here, the

> > > > doctors are the ones that make you sick with all these

>antibiotics

> > > > being given

> > > > to us and our children the day we are born here (hey, the

> > > > vaccinations alone are

> > > > a very sensitive subject here, but the doctors have calendar to

> > > > follow, so they

> > > > follow and nobody cares what is going to happen to your child

>later

> > > > on). In that

> > > > system, the doctors would want to see you only when you really

>have

> > > > to be seen,

> > > > not when he or she can make money out of each of your visits!

> > > > I'm 32 year old and have no insurance, so is my husband, so is

>my 16

> > > > mo old son.

> > > > We all see homeopath. We can't afford the insurance to begin

>with,

> > > > and we don't

> > > > want to have it too. It's pointless!

> > > > I know my response will fire up some emails, but hey, you

>wanted us

> > > > to think,

> > > > here is my thinking and no offense to anybody!

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > RESPONSE #2

> > > >

> > > > I'm from South Korea. We've had a government single payer

>system for

> > > > 3 decades

> > > > and it's infinitely better than what Americans have here. All

>the

> > > > foreigners

> > > > who are staying in Korea say the healthcare system in korea is

> > > > awesome. The

> > > > doctors are very experienced and skilled in what they

>specialized and

> > > > it's

> > > > affordable. You might not get personal service like doctor

>spending

> > > > 1 hour just

> > > > talking to you. But you get your purpose. You see a doctor

>who's

> > > > knowledgable

> > > > and your illness is treated. Gov't healthcare system is not

>about

> > > > doctors who

> > > > get paid the same no matter what their performance are, it's

>about

> > > > replacing

> > > > 'for-profit' insurers with 'non-for-profit' government single

>paying

> > > > system.

> > > > Sure, some doctors complain they don't get paid that much, so

>they

> > > > make money by

> > > > seeing more patients. But we can correct that by paying

>doctors

> > > > reasonable

> > > > amount in Korea. In Korea, tooth extraction by dentist is 7

>dollars

> > > > per tooth.

> > > > Of course it

> > > > wasn't a sleep induced anethesic operation. It was really a

>tooth

> > > > pulling. But

> > > > I got my 3 teeth taken care of just fine and healthy now.

>versus

> > > > what I would

> > > > paid in America (1100 dollars)

> > > >

> > > > Because doctors treat more people in their practice, they are

>much

> > > > more

> > > > skillfull from experience. And rich people still can go to the

>best

> > > > hospital in

> > > > the country and still get much better service and their rooms.

>The

> > > > rich can

> > > > still get the best service and treatment option available. For

> > > > people who have

> > > > money, you don't have to suffer from the inadequate service.

>Medical

> > > > community

> > > > still can offer tiered services for those who want to pay more.

>It's

> > > > only fair.

> > > > In the end, the more people are healthier as a general

>population,

> > > > you'd

> > > > benefit, too. Who knows what kind of illnesses your upscale

> > > > restaurant food

> > > > prep worker has when you dine out? How much of a sheltered

>life can

> > > > you really

> > > > have avoiding low-income folks in your life? If more people

>are

> > > > healthier, the

> > > > country is wealthier for their productivity. American medical

>costs

> > > > are so

> > > > exorbitant now. Millions are afraid of not having insurance and

>can't

> > > > leave

> > > > their work even if they

> > > > hate their jobs because of the insurance. It doesn't sound like

>the

> > > > life of one

> > > > of the best, the most powerful, the richest country in the

>world.

> > > >

> > > > sihyang

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > RESPONSE #3

> > > >

> > > > There are a many misconceptions about so-called " universal

>health

> > > > care " . Dennis Kucinich is one of the few politicians who is

>advocating

> > > > a single payer system as Sihyang is describing.

> > > >

> > > > It roughly works like this:

> > > > -everyone pays a percentage of their income (I paid 12% when I

>worked

> > > > in Germany) which is matched by the employer. So the premium is

> > > > proportionate to your income.

> > > > -the government regulates how much a doctor can charge the

>subscribers

> > > > of the state regulated insurance, so everyone gets the same

>service.

> > > > No bills. Just go to the doctor and swipe your card. The 12% of

>your

> > > > income are your contribution to the system.

> > > > -if you lose your job and receive unemployment, you get the

>state

> > > > health insurance. Same thing. Swipe your card. No bills.

> > > > -Go to the doctor of your choice (no HMOs, no provider

>directory),

> > > > just go to who you think is the best doctor.

> > > > -full dental care is included automatically.

> > > > -of course there is private insurance for the rich. That allows

>the

> > > > doctors to charge more, you get an appointment faster, you get a

> > > > better hospital room etc. but this is only allowed if you make a

> > > > minimum salary and do not financially 'depend' on the system.

> > > >

> > > > It basically allows no one to fall through the cracks.

> > > >

> > > > I think the argument that such a system lowers the quality of

>health

> > > > care is wrong. On the contrary, if anything lowers the quality

>its

> > > > HMOs. If a doctor in a single payer system doesn't do right by

>the

> > > > patients and they stop coming, s/he simply has to find a new

>career.

> > > > With HMOs, you're dealing with a corporation that has one

>priority:

> > > > maximizing profits.

> > > >

> > > > In a single payer system, health insurance companies do

>everything to

> > > > keep their customers healthy and there is a lot of preventive

>care. My

> > > > sister, who lives in Germany, recently took a free pilates class

> > > > through her insurance company. They give out free stuff like

>the nasal

> > > > irrigaton system to prevent/treat colds, etc. I won't even

>start on

> > > > maternity care...

> > > >

> > > > Just this much: My sister had her second gentle homebirth on

>Thursday.

> > > > Her first was attended by the OB/GYN and the midwife, the

>second by

> > > > the midwife alone. For the next 14 days, the midwife will check

>on her

> > > > and the baby everyday, do the exams, etc all in her home. All

>part of

> > > > the system. The only extra costs was for the midwife to be on

>call for

> > > > her birth (instead of in the hospital, which would have

>been 'free')

> > > > something like 300 Euro...

> > > >

> > > > There's a lot more to the single payer system than just

>regulating how

> > > > much doctors can charge. And yes, my friends who are doctors

>may not

> > > > make as much (especially if they work in hospitals), but they

>knew

> > > > that when they went to medical school and, therefore, something

>other

> > > > than money motivated them to become doctors in the first place.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > RESPONSE #4

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for sharing your first hand experience on this subject.

>We

> > > > here in the U.S. are under some delusion that our system,

>flawed as

> > > > it is in some cases, is the best. The reality is that national

> > > > healthcare works very well in most instances. I have family in

>France

> > > > and in Israel and in both cases, even during the most trying

>economic

> > > > times, they have never had to worry about whether they had

>access to

> > > > healthcare. In addition, cutting edge cancer treatment in

>Israel

> > > > saved my aunt's life. Had she lived here, I'm certain the

>treatment

> > > > would not have been available to her and she wouldn't be here

>today.

> > > > Furthermore, when people suggest that folks from other

>countries are

> > > > rushing to the states for their healthcare because it's better

> > > > here ???? The same goes the other way. People routinely leave

>the

> > > > States for state of the art therapies only performed in Europe.

> > > >

> > > > With regard to surgical techniques, we're probably doing better

>than

> > > > most. We have incredible facilities for reconstructive

>surgeries and

> > > > orthopedic surgeries but with regard to immune-based medical

>issues --

> > > > - we fall way short.

> > > >

> > > > Our national healthcare system is wrought with serious issues.

>When

> > > > it costs a family of four as much for their healthcare

>insurance

> > > > monthly as it does for their mortgage, there is something

>seriously

> > > > wrong. When an insurance company can refuse to provide

>healthcare to

> > > > a family or individual and use allergies whcih periodically

>cause

> > > > asthmatic reactions as a basis to refuse coverage, something is

> > > > seriously wrong. When doctors are forced to spend only five

>minutes

> > > > with each patient because to spend more time would cut into

>their

> > > > ability to make a healthy living, something is seriously wrong.

>When

> > > > a doctor immediately takes his prescription pad out and writes

>a

> > > > script for an anti-psychotic medication approved for

>adolescents and

> > > > adults when you're trying to figure out why your six year old

>child's

> > > > behavior has recently become problematic, something is

>seriously

> > > > wrong (by the way, the problems with behavior were resolved

>through

> > > > dietary changes).

> > > >

> > > > The focus on our country's " healthcare system " is profit

>driven.

> > > > Profit for the insurance companies, profit for the

>pharmaceutical

> > > > companies. The more drugs we take, the sicker we get, the more

>drugs

> > > > we have to take to counter the additional ill effects, the

>richer

> > > > they get, the poorer we get, the less time we have to fight

>with the

> > > > very system that placed all this in motion.

> > > >

> > > > This is not a health care system that we're working with. It's

>a get

> > > > rich quick scheme for health insurance companies and drug

> > > > manufacturers. We are forced to do everything we can to make

>sure

> > > > that we Never, Ever have to set foot in a hospital.

> > > >

> > > > Tali

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> > All the AIDS info is lies and will only kill more

> > See http://www.wellwithin1.com/AIDS.htm

>Actually what I was refering to is the education given about the

>transmission of this disease- HIV. Needles, sex, etc.

Actually this is what the webpage is about

HIV not causing AIDS. Sex not causing AIDS

> Places like

>Haiti are almost overrun with it, and it makes the amazingly number

>of orphans so difficult to place. As far as how it becomes or

>progresses to AIDS was not what I meant. Sorry bout that.

I know.............but what needs fixing is water and food - pure

water and good food and general health - not parasites, malnutrition,

contaminated water, toxic environment. This is why these people are

ill - NOT HIV; NOT AIDS

>I also think it's great that these countries are learning about

>simple things like tapeworms, water born parasites, etc. BUT, I have

>noticed that a LOT more good is done by small groups of people, like

>the missionary groups, than is done by large medical corps-

>reguardless of how many or few people they send.

Of course there is but these people also are the same ones who want

to vaccinate them all

Sheri

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, former R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

Vaccines - http://www.wellwithin1.com/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers & Homeopathy Online/email courses - next classes Sept 08