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Re: Weaning from Breastfeeding in a partially vaxed baby

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Hi Molly --

Welcome to the group. Sherri has a lot of great info here.

I'm . I live in NY with DH and my 2 partially vaxed kids -- I didn't

have a huge concern about vaxing till DS had a severe allergic reaction to

the DPT. Live and learn.

1. Is this valid, what my doc claims?

Anyway, yes BFing provides protection, and I feel Moms should BF as long as

possible, but truthfully if it's stressing you out ... that's not great for

you or DD.

2. What do I need to worry about health wise, that breastfeeding is

protecting against? (HIB? Rotovirus?)

I don't know specifics - anyone else?

3. Since she got the first two rounds of all the normal shots, do I really

need to worry since she has some immunity?

As you'll read from Sheri, vaxs do not provide immunity.

My DS was partially vaxed for DPT (the one he had a reaction to). In 9th

grade he got whooping cough - he was probably one of only a handful of kids

that got it that was not fully vaxed - Ped said it was a mini epidemic in

our area. Our neighbor, a fully vaxed 7th grader at the time, was sick as a

dog. My DS was practicing and playing HS lacrosse for nearly a month before

I though he should see the Ped for his " persistent cough. " I was a little

surprised to find he had whooping cough! I figure it wasn't as bad as some

of the others kids because I'm big on us eating to build the immune system -

lots of fresh fruits and veggies, organic as much as possible, clean water,

non-toxic cleaners, etc., etc.

I really wouldn't stress to much about what she's not vaxed for. When DH

and I were growing up, we had much of what they vax for and we survived just

fine -- as did all the other kids in the neighborhood. :)

Health & blessings,

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On Jan 23, 2008 7:32 PM, watersurfers <molly-lachlan@...> wrote:

> First, let me introduce myself. My name is Molly and I live in

> northern CA. I have a 13 month old daughter (first child). She

> recieved the first two rounds of shots at 2 and 4 months (because I

> hadn't done all my research yet and let the doc do the shots....).

> We stopped after that. But I have some questions....

>

> I want to stop breastfeeding soon, as it is becoming too difficult

> with work. However, my doctor is pressuring me to continue until my

> daughter is a year and half. My doctor is AGAINST my feelings about

> vaccinations, and states I need to " protect " my daughter better since

> we are not doing shots, which is why I need to continue breastfeeding.

>

> My questions are:

> 1. Is this valid, what my doc claims?

> 2. What do I need to worry about health wise, that breastfeeding is

> protecting against? (HIB? Rotovirus?)

> 3. Since she got the first two rounds of all the normal shots, do I

> really need to worry since she has some immunity?

>

> Help! I refuse to continue with the shots, now that I am educated on

> the dangers, side effects, and damage vaccines cause. But, I also am

> having difficulties keeping up the breast feeding thing.

>

> Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

> Thanks,

> Molly

>

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Since she got the first two rounds of all the normal shots, do I

really need to worry since she has some immunity?

I see a part of you still believes that shots do give immunity…. This is

false. Vaccines do not confer immunity, as we are led to believe

In a way, she’s right. Bfing does give your child the best immunity you

can give her and no shot can do what your bm does.

I’m all for as long as possible b/c it’s good for her and it’s good for

you. it’s the best milk you can give her b/c it’s human milk and she’s a

human baby---- it’s liquid gold and it’s liquid health—so it might not

be that the milk specifically protects her against A but in general,

against bad health

Nita, Mom to: 14, Jon 13, 10, 8, 6, Christian

(7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac due Feb. 08

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long

enough to make them all yourself.

_,_._,___

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Thanks !

>

> > First, let me introduce myself. My name is Molly and I live in

> > northern CA. I have a 13 month old daughter (first child). She

> > recieved the first two rounds of shots at 2 and 4 months (because

I

> > hadn't done all my research yet and let the doc do the shots....).

> > We stopped after that. But I have some questions....

> >

> > I want to stop breastfeeding soon, as it is becoming too difficult

> > with work. However, my doctor is pressuring me to continue until

my

> > daughter is a year and half. My doctor is AGAINST my feelings

about

> > vaccinations, and states I need to " protect " my daughter better

since

> > we are not doing shots, which is why I need to continue

breastfeeding.

> >

> > My questions are:

> > 1. Is this valid, what my doc claims?

> > 2. What do I need to worry about health wise, that breastfeeding

is

> > protecting against? (HIB? Rotovirus?)

> > 3. Since she got the first two rounds of all the normal shots,

do I

> > really need to worry since she has some immunity?

> >

> > Help! I refuse to continue with the shots, now that I am

educated on

> > the dangers, side effects, and damage vaccines cause. But, I

also am

> > having difficulties keeping up the breast feeding thing.

> >

> > Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

> > Thanks,

> > Molly

> >

>

>

>

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So Bfing builds her immunity against like colds and flus? I mean, if

I stop bfing in the spring when her chances of colds are less, she

will be 18 months.

If she gets a cold or something, and I stopped breastfeeding, I guess

what I am asking is, what are the risks? My doctor is telling me

things like " She will get pertussis! " Now, I don't think this will

automatically happen, just because I am done bfing and she didn't get

the vax?

>

> Since she got the first two rounds of all the normal shots, do I

> really need to worry since she has some immunity?

>

>

>

>

>

> I see a part of you still believes that shots do give immunity….

This is

> false. Vaccines do not confer immunity, as we are led to believe

>

>

>

> In a way, she's right. Bfing does give your child the best immunity

you

> can give her and no shot can do what your bm does.

>

>

>

> I'm all for as long as possible b/c it's good for her and it's good

for

> you. it's the best milk you can give her b/c it's human milk and

she's a

> human baby---- it's liquid gold and it's liquid health—so it might

not

> be that the milk specifically protects her against A but in general,

> against bad health

>

>

>

> Nita, Mom to: 14, Jon 13, 10, 8, 6,

Christian

> (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac due Feb. 08

> Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long

> enough to make them all yourself.

>

>

> _,_._,___

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG Free Edition.

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1/22/2008

> 12:00 AM

>

>

>

> No virus found in this outgoing message.

> Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.9 - Release Date:

1/22/2008

> 12:00 AM

>

>

>

>

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My son (age 2) was not breastfed. He is at least as healthy as his

breastfed peers, and sometimes more so. He's been exposed to pertussis

twice and hasn't gotten it. Yes, " breast is best " but it's not always

possible, and there's so much more going on in the body. Seriously, if

you really don't want to continue breastfeeding, then don't. She's 18

months, and that's a great amount of time to have hung in there.

My nephew was breastfed and he had so many ear infections, they put

tubes in. My friend's daughter is still breastfed at age 4, and she's

gotten just as many colds as Jack has during the same amount of time. In

fact, her breastfed 5 month old just had a cold. And no, they're not

vaxed. It's not, you stop breastfeeding, and all of a sudden she's going

to get a cold or chicken pox or diphtheria.

BTW, most cases of pertussis are in vaccinated schoolchildren and

un-boostered adults. Even the pro-vax sites admit the vaccine is only

59-80% effective.

~Robyn

watersurfers wrote:

>

> So Bfing builds her immunity against like colds and flus? I mean, if

> I stop bfing in the spring when her chances of colds are less, she

> will be 18 months.

>

> If she gets a cold or something, and I stopped breastfeeding, I guess

> what I am asking is, what are the risks? My doctor is telling me

> things like " She will get pertussis! " Now, I don't think this will

> automatically happen, just because I am done bfing and she didn't get

> the vax?

>

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Hey,

I'm a LLL leader, I do toddler meetings, so there are some issues I'm

familiar with here. Are you working from home? Or is pumping

getting to be a pain while you're at work? Once babies reach this

age it is not so necessary to pump. If you are looking at weaning,

and she is fighting you, then I would say try to keep it up, because

she is not ready. But if you are doing it just b/c your MD wants you

to, that is not a great reason to continue.

But you do need to be informed about a few more things he was

alluding to- the immune system is not fully developed until age 6, so

any immunity you can pass on with nursing until then, or until she

weans, will benefit her, some for years. Cow's milk and formula (yes

there are formulas designed for 2-5 year olds now) do not have any

immune building factors for human infants.

Usually by age 2 babies are able to handle anything that comes their

way a bit better, which may be why he is pushing you to continue.

And especially if she is in day care, it is essential for her to

continue to get breastmilk to help her deal with all of the less

healthy children she comes into contact with, until you have her on a

full, immunity building diet.

It is so interesting to me that he is pushing it since you are not

vaxing! There is a pamphlet that I think the CDC put out that says

specifically that breastfeeding does not confer enough protection for

babies, and that only vaccines can do that. This looks like a

complete reversal of that idea.

Anyway you can email me off list at LLLofMetairie@... if you

need more info.

HTH,

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I just read that reply again, it sounds terrible. I didn't mean to

imply at all that you would be nursing her until age 6. Babies in the

U.S. usually wean between 2 and 3 yo.

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hi!

just wanted to mention that kellymom.com is a good resource for

learning about the benefits of breastfeeding and extended

breastfeeding. Perhaps learning more will help you make YOUR decision

about weaning. Kathy Dettwyler also has some information online about

the benefits of extended breastfeeding.

Plus I know there are some for working/breastfeeding moms

that can provide some info and support if you decide to continue. i

don't know the names, but surely you can find them if you search in

groups.

Breastmilk is liquid gold like Nita said...

my opinion is just do your best to educate yourself so that you can

weigh your options carefully before deciding what to do....it's a big

decision and you have to make the choice that is best for you and your

family...

good luck

christine

> >

> > Since she got the first two rounds of all the normal shots, do I

> > really need to worry since she has some immunity?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I see a part of you still believes that shots do give immunity….

> This is

> > false. Vaccines do not confer immunity, as we are led to believe

> >

> >

> >

> > In a way, she's right. Bfing does give your child the best immunity

> you

> > can give her and no shot can do what your bm does.

> >

> >

> >

> > I'm all for as long as possible b/c it's good for her and it's good

> for

> > you. it's the best milk you can give her b/c it's human milk and

> she's a

> > human baby---- it's liquid gold and it's liquid health—so it might

> not

> > be that the milk specifically protects her against A but in general,

> > against bad health

> >

> >

> >

> > Nita, Mom to: 14, Jon 13, 10, 8, 6,

> Christian

> > (7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac due Feb. 08

> > Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long

> > enough to make them all yourself.

> >

> >

> > _,_._,___

> >

> >

> > No virus found in this incoming message.

> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.9 - Release Date:

> 1/22/2008

> > 12:00 AM

> >

> >

> >

> > No virus found in this outgoing message.

> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.

> > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.9 - Release Date:

> 1/22/2008

> > 12:00 AM

> >

> >

> >

> >

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You say you want to wean because of work. Well if you are pumping at

work then go ahead and slowly stop that, but you can still continue to

nurse when you are together. I know several women who have done this

once their LO's turned a year.

As for the vax and immunity issue, yes the MM does provide some and

your LO will be more protected by getting the MM, but I wouldn't be

worried about it myself. The way the MM works is if you have had

anything (like CP) naturally (not from vax) then some of that will

pass to your LO while she is nursing and also if you are exposed to

anything else your body will provide defenses at that point, but there

isn't a specific disease it provides better then another. This is how

I understand it any way.

Good luck.

wife to SAHD 8-21-04

mom to Zac 5-11-05, Neva 6-2-07

>

> First, let me introduce myself. My name is Molly and I live in

> northern CA. I have a 13 month old daughter (first child). She

> recieved the first two rounds of shots at 2 and 4 months (because I

> hadn't done all my research yet and let the doc do the shots....).

> We stopped after that. But I have some questions....

>

> I want to stop breastfeeding soon, as it is becoming too difficult

> with work. However, my doctor is pressuring me to continue until my

> daughter is a year and half. My doctor is AGAINST my feelings about

> vaccinations, and states I need to " protect " my daughter better since

> we are not doing shots, which is why I need to continue breastfeeding.

>

> My questions are:

> 1. Is this valid, what my doc claims?

> 2. What do I need to worry about health wise, that breastfeeding is

> protecting against? (HIB? Rotovirus?)

> 3. Since she got the first two rounds of all the normal shots, do I

> really need to worry since she has some immunity?

>

> Help! I refuse to continue with the shots, now that I am educated on

> the dangers, side effects, and damage vaccines cause. But, I also am

> having difficulties keeping up the breast feeding thing.

>

> Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

> Thanks,

> Molly

>

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I have a friend who nursed her kid til she was 6….. so even if she does

nurse til then, that’s OK too. It’s still the best milk for a human

child. Human milk for human babies.. even if the “baby” isn’t so baby.

Nita, Mom to: 14, Jon 13, 10, 8, 6, Christian

(7/16/03 to 8/22/04), 2 and Isaac due Feb. 08

Learn from the mistakes of others. Trust me... you can't live long

enough to make them all yourself.

No virus found in this incoming message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.9 - Release Date: 1/22/2008

12:00 AM

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.9 - Release Date: 1/22/2008

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I don't think it's terrible at all. I weaned my first son on his first birthday,

a terrible thing to do to a child who loved it so--swore I'd never do it again,

and didn't. Second son weaned himself at age 3 due to my pregnancy, third one at

age three just quit on his own. Last one, almost age 7. I know that sounds nuts

but it just sort of happened and was quite infrequent, certainly not daily. It's

not a big deal. Maybe the 2-3 yr. weaning age in the US is due to mother-led

weaning.

I highly recommend continuing nursing for many reasons, not just for the

immunity. When they're sick breastmilk is not only fluids for a fever, but food

they can keep down. I know it can be wearing to nurse--I've had some hairy

moments with biters--but one day you'll be past it. Your daughter might just

stop on her own anyway. Try to hang in there. They don't nurse as much after a

year, maybe twice a day--depends on teething, etc. That might work for you if

you're working. Good luck!

Winnie

Re: Weaning from Breastfeeding in a partially vaxed baby

Vaccinations

> I just read that reply again, it sounds terrible. I didn't mean

> to

> imply at all that you would be nursing her until age 6. Babies

> in the

> U.S. usually wean between 2 and 3 yo.

>

>

>

>

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Share on other sites

> >

> > First, let me introduce myself. My name is Molly and I live in

> > northern CA. I have a 13 month old daughter (first child). She

> > recieved the first two rounds of shots at 2 and 4 months (because I

> > hadn't done all my research yet and let the doc do the shots....).

> > We stopped after that. But I have some questions....

> >

> > I want to stop breastfeeding soon, as it is becoming too difficult

> > with work. However, my doctor is pressuring me to continue until my

> > daughter is a year and half. My doctor is AGAINST my feelings about

> > vaccinations, and states I need to " protect " my daughter better since

> > we are not doing shots, which is why I need to continue breastfeeding.

> >

> > My questions are:

> > 1. Is this valid, what my doc claims?

> > 2. What do I need to worry about health wise, that breastfeeding is

> > protecting against? (HIB? Rotovirus?)

> > 3. Since she got the first two rounds of all the normal shots, do I

> > really need to worry since she has some immunity?

> >

> > Help! I refuse to continue with the shots, now that I am educated on

> > the dangers, side effects, and damage vaccines cause. But, I also am

> > having difficulties keeping up the breast feeding thing.

> >

> > Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

> > Thanks,

> > Molly

Hi Molly, I am a tandem nursing mother of 2, DD1 2.5yrs and DD2 5mths.

I am not going to say that this route has been easy by any means

however I truly believe it is the best for my LO all the way around.

Yes it is better for their immune systems both now and in the future.

There are a lot of times when I think I should have weaned older DD a

long time ago, but I realize she still needs it for everything, her

health, comfort etc. please remember these things when deciding to

wean especially for self or work issues. Remember that you can change

your nursing schedule so that it is easier for everyone involved

instead of weaning.

> >

>

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Ladies,

I meant that it might sound terrible to the mother asking the question,

who is wrestling with not enjoying breastfeeding right now. Nursing

until 6 yro is great if you want to do it, it helps babies develop a

full immune system, and protects them, and offers many other benefits

that you have touched on.

In my experience when a mom is having trouble continuing breastfeeding,

it is b/c she is feeling tied down, or isn't taking enough time for

herself, or someone outside of the nursing couple is making it

difficult for her to want to continue. That is the case with her ped

right now. She needs to decide for herself whether she wants to

continue.

When mom isn't happy, baby isn't happy either. Thanks for the extra

info for her, it will help her make an informed decision.

:)

>

> I just read that reply again, it sounds terrible. I didn't mean to

> imply at all that you would be nursing her until age 6. Babies in

the

> U.S. usually wean between 2 and 3 yo.

>

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I still breastfeed my 3 1/2 year old son, and I'm pregnant. Everyone

has problems with it, but me! LOL! Everyone that has not even

breastfed one child, keep telling my son that he has to give it up,

and keep telling me that I'm going to have problems!! BE QUIET,

People, that is what I just feel like saying, what do you know????

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Six years from now does sound scary, you're right. All first-time nursing

mothers have gone through similar decisions. There's no set answer because

babies are different, so are mothers. Then you throw jobs or other children into

the equation--it's a lot to sort through.

I almost quit nursing my third when the chomping began at 10 months, but knew it

would pass. A first time mom can't know that. It was three weeks of torture,

though...

Winnie

Re: Weaning from Breastfeeding in a partially vaxed baby

Vaccinations

> Ladies,

>

> I meant that it might sound terrible to the mother asking the

> question,

> who is wrestling with not enjoying breastfeeding right now.

> Nursing

> until 6 yro is great if you want to do it, it helps babies

> develop a

> full immune system, and protects them, and offers many other

> benefits

> that you have touched on.

>

> In my experience when a mom is having trouble continuing

> breastfeeding,

> it is b/c she is feeling tied down, or isn't taking enough time

> for

> herself, or someone outside of the nursing couple is making it

> difficult for her to want to continue. That is the case with

> her ped

> right now. She needs to decide for herself whether she wants to

> continue.

>

> When mom isn't happy, baby isn't happy either. Thanks for the

> extra

> info for her, it will help her make an informed decision.

>

> :)

>

>

>

> >

> > I just read that reply again, it sounds terrible. I didn't

> mean to

> > imply at all that you would be nursing her until age 6.

> Babies in

> the

> > U.S. usually wean between 2 and 3 yo.

> >

>

>

>

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Gosh I cannot imagine how sick these children could have potentially stayed

or become without the proven benefit of mother's milk.

Emma Mc

_____

From: Vaccinations [mailto:Vaccinations ] On

Behalf Of Robyn Chittister

Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 12:50 AM

Vaccinations

Subject: Re: Re: Weaning from Breastfeeding in a partially

vaxed baby

My nephew was breastfed and he had so many ear infections, they put

tubes in. My friend's daughter is still breastfed at age 4, and she's

gotten just as many colds as Jack has during the same amount of time. In

fact, her breastfed 5 month old just had a cold.

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I appreciate everyones responses and opinions. Let me clarify by

stating that when my daughter was born she spent a while in the

NICU. We had a very rough start with breastfeeding and never really

caught on together. We breastfed and pumped until she was 6 months.

Then, she stopped wanting to, but I pumped every four hours anyway to

keep giving her the good stuff!

So, when I say wean, I mean really wean away from a bottle of milk,

since she doesn't nurse.

And thanks for clearing up the " potentials " my doctor was trying to

stress.

Molly

>

> Gosh I cannot imagine how sick these children could have

potentially stayed

> or become without the proven benefit of mother's milk.

>

>

>

> Emma Mc

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From: Vaccinations

[mailto:Vaccinations ] On

> Behalf Of Robyn Chittister

> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 12:50 AM

> Vaccinations

> Subject: Re: Re: Weaning from Breastfeeding in a

partially

> vaxed baby

>

> My nephew was breastfed and he had so many ear infections, they put

> tubes in. My friend's daughter is still breastfed at age 4, and

she's

> gotten just as many colds as Jack has during the same amount of

time. In

> fact, her breastfed 5 month old just had a cold.

>

>

>

>

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OMG! Congratulations on pumping this long. You are a real trooper. I

had two NICU babies so I can relate to the difficulties in getting

these babies to nurse exclusively.

Do you think she would nurse at the breast now if you stopped pumping?

Or would she be OK with cow's milk? Have you tried either? I don't

blame you wanting to give up pumping.

I can give you info on how to wean off the pump if you want- email me

at LLLofMetairie@....

:)

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They are probably sick because of cow's milk...That was my story with

my son for the first 7-8 months. My son hasn't gotten sick since I got

rid of cow's MILK in my diet.

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thanks katie, I will email you!

MOLLY

>

> OMG! Congratulations on pumping this long. You are a real trooper.

I

> had two NICU babies so I can relate to the difficulties in getting

> these babies to nurse exclusively.

>

> Do you think she would nurse at the breast now if you stopped

pumping?

> Or would she be OK with cow's milk? Have you tried either? I don't

> blame you wanting to give up pumping.

>

> I can give you info on how to wean off the pump if you want- email me

> at LLLofMetairie@...

>

> :)

>

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A similar thing happened to a friend of mine--serious medical problems at birth

with her son. She pumped for a long time but he never nursed. Fast forward to

him now at 17, never vaccinated, vegetarian, organic diet--healthiest boy I know

and as bonded a family as it gets.

Since you're not technically nursing her, it's just a diet change at this point.

I would just stay away from cow's milk.

Winnie

Re: Re: Weaning from Breastfeeding in

> a

> partially

> > vaxed baby

> >

> > My nephew was breastfed and he had so many ear infections,

> they put

> > tubes in. My friend's daughter is still breastfed at age 4,

> and

> she's

> > gotten just as many colds as Jack has during the same amount

> of

> time. In

> > fact, her breastfed 5 month old just had a cold.

> >

> >

> >

> >

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tHANKS WINNIE! If it is just a diet change, what would you recommend

instead of cows milk? Water?

Molly

> > >

> > > Gosh I cannot imagine how sick these children could have

> > potentially stayed

> > > or become without the proven benefit of mother's milk.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Emma Mc

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > _____

> > >

> > > From: Vaccinations

> > [mailto:Vaccinations ] On

> > > Behalf Of Robyn Chittister

> > > Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 12:50 AM

> > > Vaccinations

> > > Subject: Re: Re: Weaning from Breastfeeding in

> > a

> > partially

> > > vaxed baby

> > >

> > > My nephew was breastfed and he had so many ear infections,

> > they put

> > > tubes in. My friend's daughter is still breastfed at age 4,

> > and

> > she's

> > > gotten just as many colds as Jack has during the same amount

> > of

> > time. In

> > > fact, her breastfed 5 month old just had a cold.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

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We use goat's milk, as my son cannot drink cow's milk. It's easier to

digest. I know some people here use raw milk.

~Robyn

watersurfers wrote:

>

> tHANKS WINNIE! If it is just a diet change, what would you recommend

> instead of cows milk? Water?

> Molly

>

>

>

>

>

>

--

Robyn

robyn@... <mailto:%20robyn@...>

http://www.rmcsquared.net/

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Yes, think about what breastmilk is--it's a whole food for the babies. You're

not just substituting one drink for another. Once the babies start eating food,

that and whatever fluids you choose take, replaces the breastmilk.

You can try soy or rice milk to put on cereal. I'd be careful about soy for

boys, though, because of the estrogenic qualities. We actually use cow's milk on

cereal now that the kids are a lot older, but they never drink it as a drink.

But we didn't buy it for years because of allergies. Maybe someone else has

ideas about drinks for little ones?

Winnie

Re: Re: Weaning from Breastfeeding

> in

> > > a

> > > partially

> > > > vaxed baby

> > > >

> > > > My nephew was breastfed and he had so many ear infections,

> > > they put

> > > > tubes in. My friend's daughter is still breastfed at age

> 4,

> > > and

> > > she's

> > > > gotten just as many colds as Jack has during the same

> amount

> > > of

> > > time. In

> > > > fact, her breastfed 5 month old just had a cold.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

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