For Carly

[Guest guest]

Carly, I am new here and I have been reading your post. First I would

like to say I am sorry to hear about your Mom. I am a bit confused

about why you are so upset with this list. I don't think it has

anything to do with whether or not vaccines work, the point is the

adverse reactions can be worse than the disease you are trying to

avoid. They need to make vaccinations safe!!! I understand what you

are saying about not vaccinating putting immunocompromised persons at

risk, but maybe they would not be immunocompromised if they had not be

injected with the vaccine in the first place.

Sonya

[Guest guest]

>

> Carly, I am new here and I have been reading your post. First I

would

> like to say I am sorry to hear about your Mom. I am a bit confused

> about why you are so upset with this list. I don't think it has

> anything to do with whether or not vaccines work, the point is the

> adverse reactions can be worse than the disease you are trying to

> avoid. They need to make vaccinations safe!!! I understand what

you

> are saying about not vaccinating putting immunocompromised persons

at

> risk, but maybe they would not be immunocompromised if they had

not be

> injected with the vaccine in the first place.

>

> Sonya

So, Sonya, you are saying that all cancers are now a result of

vaccines? Interesting how my mothers cancer is as a result of a

single vaccine she received 57 years ago! That is quite a stretch.

Thankyou for your sympathy. She is doing fine.

Now, the orginal title of the discussion was 'what would happen if

everyone stopped vaxing?' You can't really discuss a topic like that

without touching on vaccine effectiveness.

Carly.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> >

I am a bit confused

> > about why you are so upset with this list. I don't think it has

> > anything to do with whether or not vaccines work, the point is the

> > adverse reactions can be worse than the disease you are trying to

> > avoid.

Sonya, I forgot to address this part of your question. I am upset (no,

just very frustrated) with the straw man arguments.

The question wasn't about vaccine safety, but vaccine efficacy and

effectiveness. Specifically we were talking about " what would happen

if everyone stopped vaccinating? " .

I am getting frustrated becuase people keep harping on about vaccine

safety - and that is another issue entirely. An important issue, but

another issue nonetheless. This is quite separate from the question of

whether or not certain diseases would revive without vaccination. I am

not hearing any REAL arguments in opposition to my original opinion

that measles would present some problems.

If I didn't think vaccines were without problems, I would vaccinate my

kids. But that wasn't the original topic.

I am also frustrated because people are saying " vaccines don't work "

without qualifying this statement. Which vaccines? When don't they

work? Do they ever work? What percentage of the time don't they work?

What evidence do you have of this?

Carly.

[Guest guest]

No Carly I am not saying that all or any cancer is caused by vaxing. Note the

word " Maybe " However beening vaccinated may have opened the door for the cancer

or any other autoimmune dysfunction.

As for your original topic " What would happen if everyone stopped Vaccinating "

I think we all know what would happen, We would have outbreaks!! Initially some

people might die, some people may be disabled but the people who build an

immunity or are naturally immune will have a stronger immune system for it.

" Maybe " it would stop the epidemic of Autism that I heard is now 1:94 boys. If

this continues to climb eventually all the male population will have some form

of Autism. That is horrific.And no I do not believe vaccinations are solely

responsible for Autism, or cancer, or autoimmune dysfuntion, However I believe

that they play a HUGE role!

I see completely where you are coming from in that we need to have our facts

right so that we can defend our opinion of not vaccinating our children.

Remember not long ago I was one of the people that thought it was wrong not to

vaccinate, Because I was misinformed. So the facts do need to be clear for both

sides of the debate. Thank you for trying to accomplish that.

I am glad to here that your Mother is doing well. My father died from cancer.

My mom has suffered from MS for 25 years, I was diagnosed ten years ago with MS

and Graves disease, My step mother is currently fighting Leukemia, I have an

Aunt who suffers from fibromyalgia, My nephew has osteosarcoma. So you could say

most of my family has some type of autoimmune dysfunsion.

I personally don't think there will ever be a time when everyone stops vaxing.

Sonya

Carly <poppetspaws@...> wrote:

>

> Carly, I am new here and I have been reading your post. First I

would

> like to say I am sorry to hear about your Mom. I am a bit confused

> about why you are so upset with this list. I don't think it has

> anything to do with whether or not vaccines work, the point is the

> adverse reactions can be worse than the disease you are trying to

> avoid. They need to make vaccinations safe!!! I understand what

you

> are saying about not vaccinating putting immunocompromised persons

at

> risk, but maybe they would not be immunocompromised if they had

not be

> injected with the vaccine in the first place.

>

> Sonya

So, Sonya, you are saying that all cancers are now a result of

vaccines? Interesting how my mothers cancer is as a result of a

single vaccine she received 57 years ago! That is quite a stretch.

Thankyou for your sympathy. She is doing fine.

Now, the orginal title of the discussion was 'what would happen if

everyone stopped vaxing?' You can't really discuss a topic like that

without touching on vaccine effectiveness.

Carly.

---------------------------------

Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Guest guest]

I don't think you CAN separate the safety issue from the efficacy and

effectiveness of vaccines. So, the possibility for an acute illness is

suppressed temporarily, meanwhile the immune system is disabled from the

artificial and toxic ingredients in the vaccines. That's efficacy?

And so what if measles returns?? My dh and his siblings all had measles

with no problems. My parents and their siblings had measles with no

problems. Do some have issues associated with it? Yes. Many of those

problems could have been avoided with proper treatment.

You'll never find true statistics regarding the effectiveness of a vaccine

(from an allopathic standpoint). The numbers are skewed to reflect that

they ARE effective. It's not a secret that doctors often misdiagnose

illnesses such as measles, mumps, etc. because they aren't used to seeing

them, and when they do, they often deny it COULD be one of the " vaccine

preventable " diseases if the individual has been vaxed.

There are many other examples of statistics being tampered with, not only

with vaccines, but with other allopathic drugs. It's a multi billion

dollar industry. The industry is not about to fold up and go away because

their products don't work like they had hoped.

Kay

>

> I am getting frustrated becuase people keep harping on about vaccine

> safety - and that is another issue entirely. An important issue, but

> another issue nonetheless. This is quite separate from the question of

> whether or not certain diseases would revive without vaccination. I am

> not hearing any REAL arguments in opposition to my original opinion

> that measles would present some problems.

> I am also frustrated because people are saying " vaccines don't work "

> without qualifying this statement. Which vaccines? When don't they

> work? Do they ever work? What percentage of the time don't they work?

> What evidence do you have of this?

>

> Carly.

[Guest guest]

One disease that didn't occur, at least not in the U.S. after vaccinations

stopped, is small pox. I don't know if that would be the case with measles or

not. Looking back at world history you can see that epidemics occurred a lot.

Some, like the black death of the middle ages and the 1918 flu epidemic, killed

millions world wide.

More than half of measles cases occurred among appropriately vaccinated children

5-19 years of age. Primary vaccine failure (rather than waning of

vaccine-induced immunity) may be the major reason for the occurrence of measles

in this group (5). This statement was taken from the link below.

In the editorial notes a lot of figures are given that both support and refute

the belief that vaccines prevent disease, in this case the measles.

The link below details the 1989 U.S. outbreak of measles.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00001522.htm

I hope this further confuses everyone.

Joe

Carly <poppetspaws@...> wrote: >

>

> >

I am a bit confused

> > about why you are so upset with this list. I don't think it has

> > anything to do with whether or not vaccines work, the point is the

> > adverse reactions can be worse than the disease you are trying to

> > avoid.

Sonya, I forgot to address this part of your question. I am upset (no,

just very frustrated) with the straw man arguments.

The question wasn't about vaccine safety, but vaccine efficacy and

effectiveness. Specifically we were talking about " what would happen

if everyone stopped vaccinating? " .

I am getting frustrated becuase people keep harping on about vaccine

safety - and that is another issue entirely. An important issue, but

another issue nonetheless. This is quite separate from the question of

whether or not certain diseases would revive without vaccination. I am

not hearing any REAL arguments in opposition to my original opinion

that measles would present some problems.

If I didn't think vaccines were without problems, I would vaccinate my

kids. But that wasn't the original topic.

I am also frustrated because people are saying " vaccines don't work "

without qualifying this statement. Which vaccines? When don't they

work? Do they ever work? What percentage of the time don't they work?

What evidence do you have of this?

Carly.

For some truth in jurnalism go to:

http://www.thenewamerican.com

Also visit:http://www.moosewoodart.com/pages/1/index.htm

---------------------------------

oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

[Guest guest]

I am

> not hearing any REAL arguments in opposition to my original opinion

> that measles would present some problems.

>

**** Hi Carly. I believe the Mayo clinic was recently developing a

measles strain to combat bone marrow cancer. H. published

this concept ages ago. I guess in order to see beyond, you must

venture into the history of medicine - which isn't really all that

pretty. An interesting, but extremely long read for you might be:

Divided Legacy, by Coulter.

For me, it seems so extremely simple now. We (through our own

ignorance, unintentional as it may be) have created a susceptible

society by hyperstimulating their immune systems - beginning at the

tender age of 24 hours. In order to effectively make a case for the

efficacy of vaccines, one must know everything there is to know about

immunology - I think it's safe to say that no one does.

Jenner (Mister Cowpox himself) is even quoted as saying " the

deviation of man from the state in which he was originally placed by

nature seems to have proved to him a prolific source of diseases " .

It really goes far beyond vaccines, I feel they were a catalyst - but

that is only my opinion. Bacteria and disease, like any creature,

will adapt to survive extinction. Native Americans called pertussis

and measles, " white man diseases " - because they became more and more

prevalent as agriculture developed, and as modern medicine and

vaccines were developed and abused.

Fear is a powerful tool, and it's much harder to stand up to that

fear than to succumb to it... and all that entails. I think it is

extremely foolish to manipulate Mother Nature, as history has

proven... and will prove again, she knows best.

Good luck.

M.

[Guest guest]

Some vaccines have been a cause of cancer, read The Virus and the Vaccine.

To the original question: Nothing would happen. IN fact, it's my sincere belief

that we would start shedding our outrageous amounts of autoimmunity diseases and

actually become healthier.

Re: For Carly

>

> Carly, I am new here and I have been reading your post. First I

would

> like to say I am sorry to hear about your Mom. I am a bit confused

> about why you are so upset with this list. I don't think it has

> anything to do with whether or not vaccines work, the point is the

> adverse reactions can be worse than the disease you are trying to

> avoid. They need to make vaccinations safe!!! I understand what

you

> are saying about not vaccinating putting immunocompromised persons

at

> risk, but maybe they would not be immunocompromised if they had

not be

> injected with the vaccine in the first place.

>

> Sonya

So, Sonya, you are saying that all cancers are now a result of

vaccines? Interesting how my mothers cancer is as a result of a

single vaccine she received 57 years ago! That is quite a stretch.

Thankyou for your sympathy. She is doing fine.

Now, the orginal title of the discussion was 'what would happen if

everyone stopped vaxing?' You can't really discuss a topic like that

without touching on vaccine effectiveness.

Carly.

[Guest guest]

I didn't read her as saying that vaccines caused all cancers. However

simian viruses that would only have been introduced by vaccination have been

cultured from brain and spine cancers.

While you are correct that one can not adequately address the rudimentary

question of what would happen if everyone stopped without questions of

efficacy, the question ignores the big picture. Nobody realized they might

be choosing to battle cancer 30 years later with an older body and immune

system instead of polio while younger and healthier.

We can't know what would happen if everyone stopped vaxing because there is

no historical perspective to look at. On my most cynical days I think of

the billions being made off destroying the control group which might tell us

something. The role of vaccines in human history is just a blip on the

radar so far. But it's a blip put out by something very powerful when the

fact that we're finding vaccine introduced viruses in tumors doesn't even

rock the boat. Do I think someone deliberately created AIDS? Not really

(but who knows it's the smartest psychos that are the scariest) but I do

think we've fiddled and diddled our way past the point of ever really

knowing just how much harm or good these large scale experiments have done.

The basics of 4th grade science are that you have a control.

One part of the nature of herd immunity that bugs me is wondering if my unvaxed

twins are much better off than those around them. I see their wellness and it

helps but I wonder what kind of immune systems they can build in this overly

medicated world. I do have the interesting vantage point of watching them share

and boost each others systems though. It will be interesting to see how that

works out when they get older and aren't swapping germs quite as much.

[Guest guest]

carly, I understand your mindset, I used to think just as you do. I

know this will sound patronizing but you really need to do more

research before capitulating. It is a very deep and engrossing

subject. I've been researching for 3+ years.

Here's my very first suggestion. Go to Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Virus-Vaccine-Contaminated-Cancers-Government/dp/031234272\

1/ref=sr_1_1/002-1905535-2618469?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1190767394 & sr=8-1

and buy a used copy of " THE VIRUS AND THE VACCINE " read it. It goes

through the polio vaccine production and politics, and the evidence

that cancer causing virus SV-40 was knowingly released to millions and

millions of people . It will teach you lots about policy making, lack

of integrity of the FDA, etc. and the production methods of the

vaccines themselves.

SV-40 is showing up in PEDIATRIC TUMORS today, so they are most likely

passed mother to infant in utero. Meaning that my friend who ate

organic, lived a clean and healthy life with not a single puff on a

cig died at 39 years old (leaving behind her husband and 8

children)....her mesothelioma was most likely caused by the VACCINE

people pushing their agenda.

There are hundreds of viral contaminants from the animal parts they

use to ghoulishly make these vaccines. Foreign proteins act

unpredictably in the body, and may not show up for many many years

(yes, 57 is totally possible, as a matter of fact the more time goes

by, the less the body can fight tumorigenic cells).

Then there is the whole issue of Th1 and Th2 immunity. Really,

vaccines do the body WAY more harm than good. They actually shut down

the Th1 Cellular immunity system which is why all these little kids

have constant runny noses. Their bodies can't fight off the invaders

on the cellular level, and struggle behind, at a constant loss (not to

mention the meteoric rise in asthma, allergies, inflammatory

conditions and neurological and learning problems evident in even our

youngest babies. (These are almost unheard of amongst unvaccinated

children.)

[Guest guest]

I can't " prove it " and I don't have triple, double blind studies (that's a joke,

btw) to back me up, but I know that the polio vaccine my mother got when she was

just a kid -- she would have been one of the first to get experimented on,

having been born in 1945 -- was the reason my mother died of ALS.

She was also a part of the medical trials in San Francisco and they asked her

repeatedly about what vaccines she'd had in her lifetime. I don't know what they

found, and I never will, even though I 've tried to request that info.

http://www.alsa.org/news/article.cfm?id=610 & CFID=4721620 & CFTOKEN=44409684

Evidence of Retrovirus in Blood of ALS Patients

a Friedman, PhD, ALSA Research Department Information Coordinator

March 2, 2005

[QUICK SUMMARY: Footprints of Retrovirus Found in ALS Patient Samples Leaves

Researchers Unsure of Role of Retrovirus in the Disease]

Researchers reported in Neurology this month that blood samples collected from

patients with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) contain evidence of a

retroviral enzyme more often than samples from controls without the disease. The

genes for the enzyme, reverse transcriptase, could be carried silently in the

human genome, or the virus might be associated with ALS. Much more work is

required to settle the issue.

The findings reintroduce the notion that ALS, at least in some instances, could

be linked to viral infection, a concept that has reappeared periodically when

research focuses on the issue. Scientists have also considered viral infection

for many other disorders of the nervous system from schizophrenia to multiple

sclerosis, as well as ALS. A concrete link to viral infection has never been

documented in any of these diseases.

In the February 8, 2005 issue of Neurology, British researchers including Ammar

Al-Chalabi, Ph.D. at King's College, London; Garson, M.D., Ph.D., at the

University College, London; and U.S. collaborators including Brown, Jr.,

M.D., D.Phil. and Merit Cudkowicz, M.D. at Massachusetts General Hospital,

reported that blood serum from patients with ALS contained an enzyme of a

retrovirus more often than did samples from controls who were not related to the

patients. They found activity of the enzyme, reverse transcriptase, in 47

percent of serum samples drawn from 30 American ALS patients, and in 18 percent

of 44 controls.

The scientists also found that 13 percent of samples collected from 16 patient

spouses showed reverse transcriptase activity. Blood relatives of the ALS

patients had about the same prevalence of the enzyme activity, at 43% of these

14 samples, as the patients themselves.

" The finding of a similarly increased prevalence in blood relatives of ALS

patients raises the possibility that the observed (viral enzyme) activity might

be due to an inherited endogenous retrovirus, " the researchers wrote in their

report.

If the presence of the enzyme activity reflected an actual viral infection, the

marker would be expected to appear also in spouses, the researchers wrote, as

retroviruses are readily passed in sexual intercourse.

The researchers noted that bits of retrovirus are common in all vertebrate

genomes, and likely " represent the remnants of ancient ... infections by

exogenous retroviruses. " In mice, a specifically expressed retrovirus carried in

the genome produces " an age-related motor neuron disease with a striking

similarity to ALS in humans, " they noted.

HIV can produce neurological symptoms in people. Historically, the polio virus's

ability to infect and damage the nervous system led doctors to question whether

a virus is involved in ALS. “Many different viral candidates have been proposed

over the last three decades,” the researchers wrote, " but conclusive proof of a

viral etiology has remained elusive. "

“We typically explain to patients that the weight of evidence argues against a

role for enteroviruses in ALS,” Brown commented. “A role for retroviruses is

inconclusive thus far, but the (new) data clearly indicate that further research

is warranted.”

The ALS Association (ALSA) has recognized the debate over a viral role in ALS,

and funded a collaborative study between the Centers for Disease Control and

several university centers that failed to confirm any link with enterovirus.

Polio virus, an enterovirus, infects motor neurons and can at times lead to a

weakening condition called the post-polio syndrome years after the initial

infection. The report by the collaboration in the May 2004 edition of Neurology

shows there is no rationale for the treatment of ALS with anti-enteroviral drugs

http://www.alsa.org/news/article.cfm?id=381.

In an accompanying editorial in the journal, Wim Robberecht of the University

Hospital in Leuven, Belgium, and Burk Jubelt of SUNY Upstate Medical University

in Syracuse, write that the enzyme activity found may be coming from an

inherited retrovirus in the genome, but another factor is needed to cause

disease as the blood relatives have similar prevalence of retrovirus, but do not

have ALS. Or, the editorial writers suggest, the presence of reverse

transcriptase activity “may be an epiphenomenon, linked to another (as yet

unknown), pathogenically important factor.”

“These study results are interesting but should not encourage patients to seek

antiviral treatment,” conclude Robberecht and Jubelt.

Re: For Carly

carly, I understand your mindset, I used to think just as you do. I

know this will sound patronizing but you really need to do more

research before capitulating. It is a very deep and engrossing

subject. I've been researching for 3+ years.

Here's my very first suggestion. Go to Amazon

http://www.amazon. com/Virus- Vaccine-Contamin ated-Cancers- Government/

dp/0312342721/ ref=sr_1_ 1/002-1905535- 2618469?ie= UTF8 & s=books &

qid=1190767394 & sr=8-1

and buy a used copy of " THE VIRUS AND THE VACCINE " read it. It goes

through the polio vaccine production and politics, and the evidence

that cancer causing virus SV-40 was knowingly released to millions and

millions of people . It will teach you lots about policy making, lack

of integrity of the FDA, etc. and the production methods of the

vaccines themselves.

SV-40 is showing up in PEDIATRIC TUMORS today, so they are most likely

passed mother to infant in utero. Meaning that my friend who ate

organic, lived a clean and healthy life with not a single puff on a

cig died at 39 years old (leaving behind her husband and 8

children)... .her mesothelioma was most likely caused by the VACCINE

people pushing their agenda.

There are hundreds of viral contaminants from the animal parts they

use to ghoulishly make these vaccines. Foreign proteins act

unpredictably in the body, and may not show up for many many years

(yes, 57 is totally possible, as a matter of fact the more time goes

by, the less the body can fight tumorigenic cells).

Then there is the whole issue of Th1 and Th2 immunity. Really,

vaccines do the body WAY more harm than good. They actually shut down

the Th1 Cellular immunity system which is why all these little kids

have constant runny noses. Their bodies can't fight off the invaders

on the cellular level, and struggle behind, at a constant loss (not to

mention the meteoric rise in asthma, allergies, inflammatory

conditions and neurological and learning problems evident in even our

youngest babies. (These are almost unheard of amongst unvaccinated

children.)