Re: Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

[Guest guest]

,

I agree with a lot of what you've said. I see both sides to this

issue. See inline comments.

On Sep 21, 2007, at 1:18 PM, Clemons wrote:

> So, basically, you think the vaccine works. I think it just gives

> our body a case of chronic measles that our immune system has to

> fight. Might be a case of semantics, might not.

This is basically what I think is going on. We get a chronic case.

But that means the vaccine has " succeeded " in reducing the chances of

getting an acute version of the disease, which is what the health

authorities are looking for. People die from acute measles, not

chronic. But the chronic gives other long-term, chronic health

problems, IMO.

>

> I pretty much get my vax news here, I just don't have time for the

> forums, but I appreciate the offer. Also, I just don't buy into

> " evidence " and " studies " as a student of statistics I was taught

> than anything can be altered to fit your argument.

Yes, but be careful about relying too much on emotions or

unsupportable theories, which are the other alternative to evidence

and studies (btw, anecdotal stories such as mothers who say their

children regressed after receiving their shots count as " evidence, "

so don't be so quick to dismiss that). It's too easy to get a

*little* evidence on a theory and then embrace it wholeheartedly

without ever considering valid evidence to the contrary.

> As a marketing professional I see the marketing behind vaccines. As

> a mother I see the injury.

I would posit that both are true. If you were a health professional

and you believed that you needed to persuade a certain percentage of

the population to vaccinate in order to achieve " herd immunity, " you

would pull out all the marketing stops, too. I don't think it's the

marketing alone that makes it insidious, but aspects of the marketing

-- inducing fear, making claims that are wrong " this vaccine is

safe, " " if you don't get this vaccine, you will get the disease, " etc.

>

> I really don't know. I'm simply saying what I think to be true. I

> don't know why Germany would have more cases of measles, but my

> question to that would be -- do they have more cases of death from

> measles?

>

> I don't know the answers, all I know is that if measles " came back "

> it wouldn't be the end of the world -- vax's or no vax's.

You make some excellent points and I would diverge from those who

think this issue is simple. I think convincing the powers that be

that stopping vaccines is necessary because of potential damage is

going to be very hard, because of the herd immunity issue. I wish the

whole herd immunity thing didn't exist, quite frankly, because it

would make things a whole lot easier. -Angie

[Guest guest]

Hi Carly,

It actually does make a lot of sense. What people like Wakefield and

many other scientists are finding (and it's not just measles and it's

not just the viruses that are MEANT to be in the vaccines - look at the

work done on residual SV40 virus found decades after vaccination) is

that the body does not know what to do with these chemically altered

viruses and they can lodge in different areas of the body and persist

there for years causing chronic low-grade infections or, being linked

with things such as leaky gut syndrome or illeal lymphoid hyperplasia,

autism, tumours and other cancers.

It is not NORMAL to inject diseases into the body. The body does not

know what to do with them and they are not just the diseases -

injections consist of unknown contaminants (viruses, bacteria and other

microbes), heavy metals, toxic substances such as carbolic acid,

formaldehyde, MSG etc.

Anyway, you may want to look into these studies yourself. Once you get

your head around why these things are happening, it all makes a whole

lot of sense - and becomes that much scarier that we have been

experimenting on the human race for decades without knowing what the

heck we were doing.

Take care,

Meryl

From: Vaccinations [mailto:Vaccinations ]

On Behalf Of Carly

Sent: 22 September 2007 7:31 AM

Vaccinations

Subject: Re: If everyone stopped

vaxing.....what.....??????

>

> So, basically, you think the vaccine works. I think it just gives

our body a case of chronic measles that our immune system has to

fight. Might be a case of semantics, might not.

>

To me it seems the vaccine works. I have heard this idea before of

getting a " chronic case of measles " and it doesn't make sense? where

is the evidence of this?

Carly.

[Guest guest]

Hi Carly, I am assuming in your research you have read all the vaccinations and

their ingredients. That alone was enough to make me stop. When I vaccinated my

daughter, I had no idea there was anything other than the disease itself, in a

safer form, in the vaccine. I had never heard any doctor ever explain this to

me. Once I learnt that, I couldn't feel comfortable with the whole vaccination

thing. I have since learnt a lot more about the human body and its immune

system. That has helped me see how illogically Allopathy works. Initially I

started research for a friend. I was pro vaccine at that point. I was on the

fence for a while. But I have more pieces of the puzzle now showing me the

bigger picture.

My views are influenced by the things I read on this list. But I have always

had a problem with environmental toxins since a child. I don't mean a physical

problem, but more an inner sense that they are not good for us. As a teen I

stopped using sunscreen because of the chemicals. I just had a feeling within

they caused skin cancer, not prevented it. Anyway 12 years working all day in

the tropical sun, with no shade and no sunscreen, just lots of water, and my

skin is fine. Here in Australia the skin cancer rate is still rising despite

the nationwide sunscreen campaign that has been going on since I was a child.

The underhandedness of the pharmaceutical companies and politicians etc have

also influenced me. I am not trying to change your mind, or tell you that you

are wrong. I just can't relate to your view thats all. I find it hard to

understand why others, who have done the research, still think vaccines have

merit. I am a country girl, who grew up with all the childhood diseases, and

got dirty as a kid. That probably influenced my opinions a lot too. I haven't

had the fear of disease instilled in me so much.

Fieldman

Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

Randi,

Thanks, I realise that " mass deaths " from measles are due to

mitigating factors. I personally am not afraid of measles.

Believe me, I have read all the " antivax " information. I read it for

years. Then I realised that this couldn't be qualified as " research "

because I was only looking at one side, essentially. Then I started

to learn alot and realised some of the antivax stuff was pretty

misleading. Some if it true, and some just not based on fact. So now

I am much more moderate in my views, I guess. Therer is

misinformation on both sides and I just wanted to get the facts.

It's pretty much medically accepted that infants are more at risk

from measles. That was my original point in the discussion.

And while I may be wary of vaccines for many reasons I can see some

of the benefits of herd immunity. For one thing, there are a huge

number of immunocompromised people walking around these days.

Without the protection of " the herd " there would be large numbers of

fatalities amongst them. My mum just started chemo 2 weeks ago so

she is now part of this club. There's little doubt that if everyone

stopped vaxing these people would be especially vulnerable.

Carly.

[Guest guest]

Actually some people have a natural immunity to diseases Carly. We are exposed

to things every day that make some people sick and don't effect others.

Building a stronger immune system helps that. In my experience with my family,

I would say that being unvaxed does not make you likely to get the disease at

all. Having a compromised immune system will.

Fieldman

Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

> Hi, In all the research I've done, I have discovered that when

ever their is an outbreak of an illness, like measles, then you will

find that the majority of those that get the measles have been

vaccinated. This holds true across the spectrum of illnesses

vaccinated for.

> Joe

> P.S. This is on a per capita basis. 100 vaccinated and 100 not

vaccinated. You will always find more cases among the vaccinated.

>

Joe, let's say there was a population of 200, and 10 of these were

unvaccinated, and the vaccine failure rate was 10% (so the

protection rate was 90% - just using this as an example).

Now if all those 10 unvaxed people got measles (likely) and the

vaccine " failures " also got it there would be 19 of them. So there

would be more vaxed people getting it than unvaxed. But this is

misleading because there were many more who were vaxed. And 171 of

these (90% of 190) DID NOT get measles.

Do you see what I am getting at? In a highly vaxed population there

will be more vaxed that get it because there are many more of them.

It is the " attack rate " in both groups that is important.

Carly.

[Guest guest]

Yes, but not everybody who gets a disease has a compromised immune

system. -Angie

On Sep 21, 2007, at 6:41 PM, Fieldman wrote:

> Actually some people have a natural immunity to diseases Carly. We

> are exposed to things every day that make some people sick and

> don't effect others. Building a stronger immune system helps

> that. In my experience with my family, I would say that being

> unvaxed does not make you likely to get the disease at all. Having

> a compromised immune system will.

>

> Fieldman

[Guest guest]

Ahhh, thank you. That was what I was missing in my debate. I feel really, really

bad for the people with disease that believe that to be well, they need to be

vaccinated, putting more and more pressure on their bodies to defend itself.

Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what. ....????? ?

> Hi, In all the research I've done, I have discovered that when

ever their is an outbreak of an illness, like measles, then you will

find that the majority of those that get the measles have been

vaccinated. This holds true across the spectrum of illnesses

vaccinated for.

> Joe

> P.S. This is on a per capita basis. 100 vaccinated and 100 not

vaccinated. You will always find more cases among the vaccinated.

>

Joe, let's say there was a population of 200, and 10 of these were

unvaccinated, and the vaccine failure rate was 10% (so the

protection rate was 90% - just using this as an example).

Now if all those 10 unvaxed people got measles (likely) and the

vaccine " failures " also got it there would be 19 of them. So there

would be more vaxed people getting it than unvaxed. But this is

misleading because there were many more who were vaxed. And 171 of

these (90% of 190) DID NOT get measles.

Do you see what I am getting at? In a highly vaxed population there

will be more vaxed that get it because there are many more of them.

It is the " attack rate " in both groups that is important.

Carly.

[Guest guest]

But, it does not mean that the vaxed ones who didn't get it are being protected

by the vaccine. It does mean that they didn't come in contact with the bacteria.

Or their immune systems were strong enough to fight it off even after having

been vaxed. I just don't believe that injecting toxins in to a person confers

immunity on that person. The presence of antigens after being vaxed only means

that the immune system produced them as a result of the vaccination and not

exposure to the real thing.

Did you read my report about the Philippines flu epidemic? In areas where they

vaccinated multiple times there was a very high mortality among those

vaccinated. In one province it was about 40,000 deaths among the vaccinated.

In another, where the vaccination rate was much lower, only a few hundred deaths

occurred.

Joe

Carly <poppetspaws@...> wrote:

> Hi, In all the research I've done, I have discovered that when

ever their is an outbreak of an illness, like measles, then you will

find that the majority of those that get the measles have been

vaccinated. This holds true across the spectrum of illnesses

vaccinated for.

> Joe

> P.S. This is on a per capita basis. 100 vaccinated and 100 not

vaccinated. You will always find more cases among the vaccinated.

>

Joe, let's say there was a population of 200, and 10 of these were

unvaccinated, and the vaccine failure rate was 10% (so the

protection rate was 90% - just using this as an example).

Now if all those 10 unvaxed people got measles (likely) and the

vaccine " failures " also got it there would be 19 of them. So there

would be more vaxed people getting it than unvaxed. But this is

misleading because there were many more who were vaxed. And 171 of

these (90% of 190) DID NOT get measles.

Do you see what I am getting at? In a highly vaxed population there

will be more vaxed that get it because there are many more of them.

It is the " attack rate " in both groups that is important.

Carly.

For some truth in jurnalism go to:

http://www.thenewamerican.com

Also visit:http://www.moosewoodart.com/pages/1/index.htm

---------------------------------

Luggage? GPS? Comic books?

Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Unfortunately, I can't now provide them. It came from about 3 solid days reading

I did at the Library in Binghamton, N.Y. I covered at least a dozen books during

that time. I repeatedly read of how the vaxed were more likely to get an illness

that was vaxed for. You may find it to be the same in your local library. Some

of the texts I read dated back to the 1940's.

I don't know how a vaccine that does not contain the real bacteria/virus can

ever protect a person if vaccines ever could. They tried a real live vaccine

inoculation program in the early 1950's. It resulted in a reported 50,000+

cases among the vaccinated. And that at a time when polio was in a normal rate

of decline throughout America. My own opinion is that because the body makes

antibodies for an imitation of the real thing that when it comes in contact with

the real thing it thinks that it has it covered and doesn't try to fight it. It

is so close to the real thing that the immune system can't tell the difference.

Therefore, More people among the vaxed get it than among the unvaxed. But,

again, that is my own opinion. But I suspect that if that is not the case it is

something close to that.

Joe

P.S If you get to a library, let me know what you find. Thanks.

Carly <poppetspaws@...> wrote: Joe, I

would love to see the studies you are referring to - thanks!

Carly.

For some truth in jurnalism go to:

http://www.thenewamerican.com

Also visit:http://www.moosewoodart.com/pages/1/index.htm

---------------------------------

Got a little couch potato?

Check out fun summer activities for kids.

[Guest guest]

I am currently researching vaccines and their effects for a dissitation I will

be using when my 3 week old requires his routine vaccinations shortly. I know

enough now to say no as I already have to the Health visitor who was a little

shocked by my decision. Would anybody be interested to read it when it is

finished?

Simon Bien

Vaccinations@...: poppetspaws@...: Fri, 21

Sep 2007 23:28:42 +0000Subject: Wild/vaccination strain was Re:

If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

>>

I think it would help if we were told if cases of assorted diseases were the

wild or the vaccination strain. Unfortunately when outbreaks are reported, we

aren't informed of this fact. For all we know, the wild strains could have

already been dramatically reduced and the vaccination strains are the ones

spreading. The facts we are all presented with are always selective depending on

the agenda of whoever is presenting them.> > Fieldman>Yes, I agree, though

I have seen with polio reporting a distinction between wild and

vaccine-induced.Carly.

_________________________________________________________________

100’s of Music vouchers to be won with MSN Music

https://www.musicmashup.co.uk

[Guest guest]

I would thankyou Simon.

Fieldman

Wild/vaccination strain

was Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

>> I think it would help if we were told if cases of assorted diseases

were the wild or the vaccination strain. Unfortunately when outbreaks are

reported, we aren't informed of this fact. For all we know, the wild strains

could have already been dramatically reduced and the vaccination strains are

the ones spreading. The facts we are all presented with are always selective

depending on the agenda of whoever is presenting them.> > Fieldman>Yes,

I agree, though I have seen with polio reporting a distinction between wild

and vaccine-induced.Carly.

_________________________________________________________________

100's of Music vouchers to be won with MSN Music

https://www.musicmashup.co.uk

[Guest guest]

I certainly would!

Lori

Wild/vaccination strain

was Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

>> I think it would help if we were told if cases of assorted diseases

were the wild or the vaccination strain. Unfortunately when outbreaks are

reported, we aren't informed of this fact. For all we know, the wild strains

could have already been dramatically reduced and the vaccination strains are

the ones spreading. The facts we are all presented with are always selective

depending on the agenda of whoever is presenting them.> > Fieldman>Yes,

I agree, though I have seen with polio reporting a distinction between wild

and vaccine-induced.Carly.

_________________________________________________________________

100's of Music vouchers to be won with MSN Music

https://www.musicmashup.co.uk

[Guest guest]

Carly, with all due respect, I have been " reading " both sides of this argument

for six years. Just because I can't toss out the citations at a moment's notice,

does not make what I know any less true, or anyone else for that matter.

You can go forward believing that they work -- I don't think they work, I think

they harm. I don't think they " ever " worked, and if they did they did so by

giving the person a case of what they were trying to avoid.

Peace.

Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

>

> But, it does not mean that the vaxed ones who didn't get it are

being protected by the vaccine. It does mean that they didn't come

in contact with the bacteria. Or their immune systems were strong

enough to fight it off even after having been vaxed. I just don't

believe that injecting toxins in to a person confers immunity on

that person. The presence of antigens after being vaxed only means

that the immune system produced them as a result of the vaccination

and not exposure to the real thing.

************ ********* ********* *********

I was talking about a group of 200 *who have been exposed* to the

disease. Measles is a viral disease, not bacterial. Why else would

the vaxed ones have not been protected from the vaccine? We are

talking about a highly infectious disease here.

Please, I suggest people do some rudimentary reading on these

diseases. I'm going to leave this discussion as it is because I

don't see the point in arguing without that essential foundation.

If people aren't willing to research outside of this group

or " antivax " literature then how can they say they

have " researched " ? I am certainly not saying this is true of

everyone here, and certainly Meryl is one of the best informed

people out there. But some of the assertions in this discussion have

been a bit alarming. Like thinking Measles is a " bacterial " disease;

and antibody titres are " antigens " .

Carly.

[Guest guest]

I'll read it for you -- but I am more curious as to why you are writing

something up? Where are you? IS the health people requiring this of you?

Wild/vaccination strain was Re:

If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

>>

I think it would help if we were told if cases of assorted diseases were the

wild or the vaccination strain. Unfortunately when outbreaks are reported, we

aren't informed of this fact. For all we know, the wild strains could have

already been dramatically reduced and the vaccination strains are the ones

spreading. The facts we are all presented with are always selective depending on

the agenda of whoever is presenting them.> > Fieldman>Yes, I agree, though

I have seen with polio reporting a distinction between wild and

vaccine-induced.Carly.

_________________________________________________________________

100¢s of Music vouchers to be won with MSN Music

https://www.musicmashup.co.uk

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thanks for the offer to read, always good to get an opinion on stuff. I live in

the UK and no I dont need this specifically but it helps to write up and get a

good idea on the subject. We know that the local Health Visitors will not accept

our decision to not vaccinate and having a good bank of evidence will help in

our justification to not do so.

http://www.pimpmylive.co.uk

[Guest guest]

Please read this LONG article about herd immunity and other excellent info

concerning childhood diseases and treatment etc. It is part of the Childhood

Diseases class Sheri is offering. I would have copied and pasted only what I

wanted to comment on but don't know how to do that so ya'll will have to read it

all for yourself! LOL It is written by a doctor so there is a scientific pov

there.

HTH

Laurie

www.healthy.net/asp/templates/Article.asp?PageType=Article & Id1122

-----

[Guest guest]

I would!

Marie Quisenberry

leesamarie2828@...

Wild/vaccination strain was Re:

If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

>>

I think it would help if we were told if cases of assorted diseases were the

wild or the vaccination strain. Unfortunately when outbreaks are reported, we

aren't informed of this fact. For all we know, the wild strains could have

already been dramatically reduced and the vaccination strains are the ones

spreading. The facts we are all presented with are always selective depending on

the agenda of whoever is presenting them.> > Fieldman>Yes, I agree, though

I have seen with polio reporting a distinction between wild and

vaccine-induced.Carly.

_________________________________________________________________

100¢s of Music vouchers to be won with MSN Music

https://www.musicmashup.co.uk

[Guest guest]

I couldn't get the link to work, Laurie.

Kay

Re: Re: If everyone stopped

vaxing.....what.....??????

> Please read this LONG article about herd immunity and other excellent

> info concerning childhood diseases and treatment etc. It is part of the

> Childhood Diseases class Sheri is offering. I would have copied and

> pasted only what I wanted to comment on but don't know how to do that so

> ya'll will have to read it all for yourself! LOL It is written by a

> doctor so there is a scientific pov there.

> HTH

> Laurie

>

> www.healthy.net/asp/templates/Article.asp?PageType=Article & Id1122

> -----

[Guest guest]

At 12:40 AM 9/22/2007 -0000, you wrote:

>--- In Vaccinations , " Fieldman " <> The

>underhandedness of the pharmaceutical companies and politicians etc

>have also influenced me. I am not trying to change your mind, or

>tell you that you are wrong. I just can't relate to your view thats

>all. I find it hard to understand why others, who have done the

>research, still think vaccines have merit. I am a country girl, who

>grew up with all the childhood diseases, and got dirty as a kid.

>That probably influenced my opinions a lot too. I haven't had the

>fear of disease instilled in me so much.

>>

>

>

>, I think you misunderstand me. I don't vaccinate my kids. I

>don't have a fear of most of these diseases. That doesn't mean

>vaccines have " no merit " . That doesn't mean that herd immunity does

>not exist for measles? Why have the periodic outbreaks of measles,

>the normal disease cycle, essentially stopped? Why is this different

>in countries that don't widely vaccinate against measles (eg.

>Germany) that have similar living conditions?

>

>I haven't seen a satisfactory answer to this question as yet.

>

>I don't trust drug companies or politicians either. If you go

>looking you can find lots of vaccine studies that are peer reviewed

>and/or independant of pharma.

>

>Carly.

#1 - there is NO evidence that there is immunity from vaccines ever.

Antibodies are what they use to 'prove' it and antibodies only mean

exposure, not immunity.

#2. - and from a homeopathic perspective that is exactly what happens - a

chronic case of illness is injected. And you are too ill to get an acute

case.

This is more complicated to explain if one has no homeopathic background.

Often many who are so ill chronically, never get colds or minor things as

they can't produce symptoms as the body is too busy producing symptoms for

the stronger disease. Same with vaccines. Or too busy fighting it off.

#3 Measles deaths were already way down. Measles was actually declining

too. But the key is not that the vaccine has given immunity, it has just

given all a chronic, under the radar, case and it looks like measles cases

have gone down. But at what price? They don't have immunity. They have

chronic illness.

Sheri

listowner

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Try this:

http://www.healthy.net/scr/Article.asp?Id=1122

On 9/22/07, Kay <Casper3@...> wrote:

>

> I couldn't get the link to work, Laurie.

>

> Kay

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you. That worked.

Kay

Re: Re: If everyone stopped

vaxing.....what.....??????

> Try this:

>

> http://www.healthy.net/scr/Article.asp?Id=1122

>

> On 9/22/07, Kay <Casper3@...> wrote:

>>

>> I couldn't get the link to work, Laurie.

>>

>> Kay

[Guest guest]

At 12:40 AM 9/22/2007 -0000, you wrote:

>--- In Vaccinations , " Fieldman " <> The

>underhandedness of the pharmaceutical companies and politicians etc

>have also influenced me. I am not trying to change your mind, or

>tell you that you are wrong. I just can't relate to your view thats

>all. I find it hard to understand why others, who have done the

>research, still think vaccines have merit. I am a country girl, who

>grew up with all the childhood diseases, and got dirty as a kid.

>That probably influenced my opinions a lot too. I haven't had the

>fear of disease instilled in me so much.

>>

>

>

>, I think you misunderstand me. I don't vaccinate my kids. I

>don't have a fear of most of these diseases. That doesn't mean

>vaccines have " no merit " . That doesn't mean that herd immunity does

>not exist for measles? Why have the periodic outbreaks of measles,

>the normal disease cycle, essentially stopped? Why is this different

>in countries that don't widely vaccinate against measles (eg.

>Germany) that have similar living conditions?

>

>I haven't seen a satisfactory answer to this question as yet.

>

>I don't trust drug companies or politicians either. If you go

>looking you can find lots of vaccine studies that are peer reviewed

>and/or independant of pharma.

>

>Carly.

#1 - there is NO evidence that there is immunity from vaccines ever.

Antibodies are what they use to 'prove' it and antibodies only mean

exposure, not immunity.

#2. - and from a homeopathic perspective that is exactly what happens - a

chronic case of illness is injected. And you are too ill to get an acute

case.

This is more complicated to explain if one has no homeopathic background.

Often many who are so ill chronically, never get colds or minor things as

they can't produce symptoms as the body is too busy producing symptoms for

the stronger disease. Same with vaccines. Or too busy fighting it off.

#3 Measles deaths were already way down. Measles was actually declining

too. But the key is not that the vaccine has given immunity, it has just

given all a chronic, under the radar, case and it looks like measles cases

have gone down. But at what price? They don't have immunity. They have

chronic illness.

Sheri

listowner

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>, I don't necessarily believe they " work " or " don't work " .

>Its more complex than that. *That's what I am trying to get across*.

>Some work better than others. The pertussis vaccine is notoriously

>ineffective, for example. but not completely ineffective, either. I

>would say that *they* vastly overstate the effectiveness, yes. When

>they say " 99% effective " we all know its a croc. Probably 60 - 80%

>for most vaccines would be more accurate. Based on epidemiology,

>animal studies, serology, etc.

What is 'works'????

Making you so sick you can't get measles? Is that works?

So tell me how epidemiolgoy, animal studies & serology prove they give

immunity.

I can cut off your leg so you don't get cancer in your knee - but does that

mean you have immunity?

>

>I honestly have no desire to argue...and certainly less desire to

>stir up trouble. I'm just interested in fact-based arguments and

>sorting the fact from the fiction (on both sides, that is). I'm sure

>you are too. We are all trying to do the best we can for our

>families.

>

>Yes, well, vaccines are supposed to work by inducing a sub-clinical

>case of the disease and thus immunity, so I suppose you are right

>there.

No, they aren't supposed to produce a subclinical case. They say they just

stimulate antibody production so you will never get a cas.

>

>Its a shame there is no room for dissenting opinion here. I know

>posts that agree with my views have been censored.

This is ABSOLUTLY NOT True. 2 people are moderated at the present time

because of how they respond sometimes. One of those person's post was not

allowed on the list.

NO ONE else has been censored.

>>I don't vax. I

>have concerns about vaccine safety. That doesn't mean that I have to

>subscribe to a view that vaccines are completely ineffective and

>there is no such thing as herd immunity. I think that's just denying

>scientific reality.

Who's science?

Herd immunity seemed to be a factor when people 'got' a disease. But it

has never been proven for vaccines - immunity has never been proven.

If people stopped vaccinating we would have healthier people

The diseases may return and may not. We may have already made people too

sick to ever be able to go back. Generation after generation of vaccinated.

If you want facts I suggest you take my class. Tons of medical

documentation is given out to prove the points.

And from my perspective it doesn't matter if they 'come back' as most are

not severe. Those who have had the vaccine do NOT have immunity, so its a

moot point.

Sheri

Sheri

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm or

http://www.wellwithin1.com/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.wellwithin1.com/vaccineclass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.wellwithin1.com/homeo.htm

NEXT CLASSES start by email September 5 or 6

[Guest guest]

I'm pretty sure you are allowed to dissent here, and have done so for the last

couple of days.

I don't " believe " in science the way you do, therefore, we aren't bound to agree

on scientific " facts. "

I think science has been our downfall, almost as much as it has saved us.

If you want a great chance of dying, 750,000 are killed every year by drug

interactions, infections from hospitals and outright physician

negligence/misconduct.

The point that you don't think you are arguing means to me that you assume

yourself to be right, and frankly, I think you know about as much as I do and

just simply came to a different conclusion than I did.

Doesn't really make either one of us right ---- or wrong. I think Quarter Horses

are the best breed out there, based on my life experiences with them and their

flat out ability to be fast and cagey in barrel racing. It doesn't mean I'm

right, it means that I have an opinion, based on what I know. You have an

opinion based on what you know. Again, it doesn't make either one of us " right. "

Peace

Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

>

> Carly, with all due respect, I have been " reading " both sides of

this argument for six years. Just because I can't toss out the

citations at a moment's notice, does not make what I know any less

true, or anyone else for that matter.

>

> You can go forward believing that they work -- I don't think they

work, I think they harm. I don't think they " ever " worked, and if

they did they did so by giving the person a case of what they were

trying to avoid.

>

> Peace.

, I don't necessarily believe they " work " or " don't work " .

Its more complex than that. *That's what I am trying to get across*.

Some work better than others. The pertussis vaccine is notoriously

ineffective, for example. but not completely ineffective, either. I

would say that *they* vastly overstate the effectiveness, yes. When

they say " 99% effective " we all know its a croc. Probably 60 - 80%

for most vaccines would be more accurate. Based on epidemiology,

animal studies, serology, etc.

I honestly have no desire to argue...and certainly less desire to

stir up trouble. I'm just interested in fact-based arguments and

sorting the fact from the fiction (on both sides, that is). I'm sure

you are too. We are all trying to do the best we can for our

families.

Yes, well, vaccines are supposed to work by inducing a sub-clinical

case of the disease and thus immunity, so I suppose you are right

there.

Its a shame there is no room for dissenting opinion here. I know

posts that agree with my views have been censored. I don't vax. I

have concerns about vaccine safety. That doesn't mean that I have to

subscribe to a view that vaccines are completely ineffective and

there is no such thing as herd immunity. I think that's just denying

scientific reality.

Carly.

[Guest guest]

At 02:19 PM 9/21/2007 -0400, you wrote:

>How, then, do you account for the drop in diseases that new vaccines

>such as Prevnar tackle? No drop before the vaccine, no unsanitary

>living conditions?

All there is is a shift to another type of meningitis.

It isn't about the bacteria. And if you don't buy it that bacteria causes

illness, but is the result..................

Then the meningitis is the issue resulting from immune system problems

(previous vaccines, overload of antibiotics and other drugs, not breastfed

and on and on).

The bacteria that are present (tests show that is the bacteria present),

does not mean that it caused it.

I'll resend the Prevnar info about the new strains now appearing.

Sheri

>

>

>On Sep 21, 2007, at 1:13 PM, ph McGuire wrote:

>

>> Hi

>> If you consider the fact that probably at least half of the

>> population has never had the measles vaccine and a large percentage

>> of the remaining people haven't had one in a long time, possibly

>> decades, then you can start to understand that vaccines do not

>> prevent measles or anything else. If you look deep enough, you will

>> find that measles was on a rapid decline BEFORE they introduced the

>> vaccine. Ditto polio and a host of other diseases.

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, former R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm or

http://www.wellwithin1.com/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.wellwithin1.com/vaccineclass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.wellwithin1.com/homeo.htm

NEXT CLASSES start by email October 17 & 18

[Guest guest]

I can't account for the reported drop in the Prevnar associated diseases.

I would ask who is providing the data to support the claim. If it is the mfg's

data then I would question it. It may be that those reporting the incidence of

the illness are reluctant to report a strain that a person is vaccinated for. I

have read that a lot of doctors will not diagnose a person with, say, whooping

cough, if the person is vaccinated with it.

Haven't claims like these been historically proven to be wrong for virtually all

vaccines?

But, this may be the only exception.

Joe

Sheri Nakken <vaccineinfo@...> wrote: At

02:19 PM 9/21/2007 -0400, you wrote:

>How, then, do you account for the drop in diseases that new vaccines

>such as Prevnar tackle? No drop before the vaccine, no unsanitary

>living conditions?

All there is is a shift to another type of meningitis.

It isn't about the bacteria. And if you don't buy it that bacteria causes

illness, but is the result..................

Then the meningitis is the issue resulting from immune system problems

(previous vaccines, overload of antibiotics and other drugs, not breastfed

and on and on).

The bacteria that are present (tests show that is the bacteria present),

does not mean that it caused it.

I'll resend the Prevnar info about the new strains now appearing.

Sheri

>

>

>On Sep 21, 2007, at 1:13 PM, ph McGuire wrote:

>

>> Hi

>> If you consider the fact that probably at least half of the

>> population has never had the measles vaccine and a large percentage

>> of the remaining people haven't had one in a long time, possibly

>> decades, then you can start to understand that vaccines do not

>> prevent measles or anything else. If you look deep enough, you will

>> find that measles was on a rapid decline BEFORE they introduced the

>> vaccine. Ditto polio and a host of other diseases.

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, former R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm or

http://www.wellwithin1.com/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.wellwithin1.com/vaccineclass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.wellwithin1.com/homeo.htm

NEXT CLASSES start by email October 17 & 18

For some truth in jurnalism go to:

http://www.thenewamerican.com

Also visit:http://www.moosewoodart.com/pages/1/index.htm

---------------------------------

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