Re: Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

[Guest guest]

Somone asked for the actual study on where herd immunity came from? I asked

about this about a month ago and thought since it was brought back up i

would repost it. Hope that's ok.

This was posted on this list by Meryl a few weeks ago...

----------------------------------------------------------

And actually, herd immunity itself never had any relation to

vaccination. I remember hearing Viera Scheibner speak about this and I

think it's in her book which is now out of print, as well.

There was a researcher in the 1930's named Hedrich (not sure if I've

spelled that right or not - doing this from memory) who was studying

cattle - an actual HERD! LOL Anyway, there was a disease that lots of

cattle get and what he found was that when enough of the calves had

contracted this disease and recovered from it, there would be a long

inter-epidemic period when there might be a sporadic case or two, but

there would not be any epidemics until there were enough susceptible

young cattle around to sustain a larger outbreak. This was then called

herd immunity. He found that when approximately 60-65% of the cattle

were immune due to infection, there would be a period of 3 to 4 years

without an outbreak. Then, the outbreak would occur - not because of any

lifetime immunity amongst the population - but simply because young

cattle had been born and did not have this native immunity from

infection.

Herd immunity NEVER had anything to do with vaccinations. It was simply

a concept which was opportunistically grabbed by people who had a

vaccine barrow to push and spread by the media which neither thinks nor

questions any statements made by doctors or pharmaceutical company

goons.

Today in both the US and Australia (the only countries whose statistics

I am familiar enough with to make this comment) though vaccination

against whooping cough is in excess of the rates postulated to represent

herd immunity - when we have been told that there will be no disease at

all - we have more cases of whooping cough per capita then at any time

since prior to mass vaccination campaigns began.

Now, if whooping cough vaccination provided even MINIMAL protection from

the disease, we would expect to have seen a decline in incidence.

Instead, we have seen incidence shoot up.

This is because vaccines only produce antibodies - and as has been said

many times - antibodies do not equal immunity.

Herd immunity has nothing to do with vaccination and will never mean the

end of disease - it is only a term meant to indicate that there are

either more or less susceptible individuals in the 'herd' being studied.

And as an interesting side note - one effect that vaccinations have had

on the herd immunity has been to shorten the inter-epidemic period

between outbreaks. These used to occur with most childhood diseases in

3-5 year cycles. That cycle has now been shortened for most of these

illnesses to 2-3 years apart. Great job vaccine! NOT!

Peace, love and light,

Alyssa

" Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, and

dance like you do when nobody's watching. "

" All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people do

nothing. "

(http://pregnancy.baby-gaga.com/)

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************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Guest guest]

Carly,

FYI, no one has ever proven herd immunity by any measure. It is a theory based

on an actual herd of cattle, to my understanding and was based incorrectly on

regular disease cycles in a cattle herd!

I think your explanation is exactly what many, many people think, and I think

it's totally wrong -- no offense. The diseases were all going drastically DOWN

when vaccines were introduced. The vaccines jumped on the downward spiral and

then took credit for everything. We have been medicines nowdays, cleaner

hospitals (well, some are), better trained doctors (again, some) and better

living conditions all around. We are able to quarantine ourselves if we need to,

wash our hands whenever we want, etc.

I stood in a tent this summer in the middle of a " old west " town during a

thunder storm. Our tent filled with water that washed down from the horse stalls

(Cheyenne Frontier Days) and it was a mess. I doubled that experience and

thought " no wonder they used to get sick in droves " it was almost impossible to

stay dry, clean or anything else. We don't live like that anymore!

Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

I just saw this topic heading.

I think if everyone stopped vaxing intitially there would be a big

fallout. There would probably be an increase in morbidity and

mortality amongst infants due to measles. I am not worried about my 5

and 7yo getting measles but I would be considerably worried about a

baby gettting it. Due to the vax program mothers have alot less

immunity to protect their infants in the first year. I, for one, don't

have natural immunity to measles - and perhaps those who do would not

be getting their immunity 'boosted' periodically because the virus is

not really circulating these days.

I could be very wrong (I would hope so!); but I think this seems a

likely scenario and it would take awhile for things to rebalance.

When people say they believe there is no such thing as herd immunity

I'm a little confused. Why else have measles outbreaks effectively

stopped? I'm not convinced of the long-term safety but this seems to

be one vaccine that is very effective.

Carly.

[Guest guest]

I agree with you Carly. I have already had boosters and a titre check in the

last 3 years and I'm okay. (all I needed was an MMR) My dh will be getting

either boosters or a titre check so that we can protect our baby. She is too

little for these shots and has shown that she has bad reactions to them. She can

make a choice for herself when she is grown to vaccinate or not. In the mean

time we will sacrifice in order to protect her. We believe they work but also

hurt. Half dozen of one, six of the other.

Carly <poppetspaws@...> wrote:

I just saw this topic heading.

I think if everyone stopped vaxing intitially there would be a big

fallout. There would probably be an increase in morbidity and

mortality amongst infants due to measles. I am not worried about my 5

and 7yo getting measles but I would be considerably worried about a

baby gettting it. Due to the vax program mothers have alot less

immunity to protect their infants in the first year. I, for one, don't

have natural immunity to measles - and perhaps those who do would not

be getting their immunity 'boosted' periodically because the virus is

not really circulating these days.

I could be very wrong (I would hope so!); but I think this seems a

likely scenario and it would take awhile for things to rebalance.

When people say they believe there is no such thing as herd immunity

I'm a little confused. Why else have measles outbreaks effectively

stopped? I'm not convinced of the long-term safety but this seems to

be one vaccine that is very effective.

Carly.

---------------------------------

Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.

Answers - Check it out.

[Guest guest]

I had both german and red measles as a child within 4 months of each other,

and under the age of a year. I know lots of people who had measles as a

child and survived. I've never heard of anyone first-hand dying from it.

What's the morbidity rates for measles in un-vaccinated populations?

Curious,

Tash

On 9/21/07, Dunnagan <ibeecarrie@...> wrote:

>

> I agree with you Carly. I have already had boosters and a titre check in

> the last 3 years and I'm okay. (all I needed was an MMR) My dh will be

> getting either boosters or a titre check so that we can protect our baby.

> She is too little for these shots and has shown that she has bad reactions

> to them. She can make a choice for herself when she is grown to vaccinate or

> not. In the mean time we will sacrifice in order to protect her. We believe

> they work but also hurt. Half dozen of one, six of the other.

>

>

>

> Carly <poppetspaws@... <poppetspaws%40optusnet.com.au>> wrote:

> I just saw this topic heading.

>

> I think if everyone stopped vaxing intitially there would be a big

> fallout. There would probably be an increase in morbidity and

> mortality amongst infants due to measles. I am not worried about my 5

> and 7yo getting measles but I would be considerably worried about a

> baby gettting it. Due to the vax program mothers have alot less

> immunity to protect their infants in the first year. I, for one, don't

> have natural immunity to measles - and perhaps those who do would not

> be getting their immunity 'boosted' periodically because the virus is

> not really circulating these days.

>

> I could be very wrong (I would hope so!); but I think this seems a

> likely scenario and it would take awhile for things to rebalance.

>

> When people say they believe there is no such thing as herd immunity

> I'm a little confused. Why else have measles outbreaks effectively

> stopped? I'm not convinced of the long-term safety but this seems to

> be one vaccine that is very effective.

>

> Carly.

>

> ---------------------------------

> Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who

> knows.

> Answers - Check it out.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Measles isn't the one that bothers me, its whooping cough/pertussis. 13 children

under the age of one died in the US in 2004. That's about the average. Still

very very low compared to how many are vaccine injured. But still a terrible

desease to have to be sick with.

Natasha Lemire-Blair <tashlb@...> wrote:

I had both german and red measles as a child within 4 months of each

other,

and under the age of a year. I know lots of people who had measles as a

child and survived. I've never heard of anyone first-hand dying from it.

What's the morbidity rates for measles in un-vaccinated populations?

Curious,

Tash

On 9/21/07, Dunnagan <ibeecarrie@...> wrote:

>

> I agree with you Carly. I have already had boosters and a titre check in

> the last 3 years and I'm okay. (all I needed was an MMR) My dh will be

> getting either boosters or a titre check so that we can protect our baby.

> She is too little for these shots and has shown that she has bad reactions

> to them. She can make a choice for herself when she is grown to vaccinate or

> not. In the mean time we will sacrifice in order to protect her. We believe

> they work but also hurt. Half dozen of one, six of the other.

>

>

>

> Carly <poppetspaws@... <poppetspaws%40optusnet.com.au>> wrote:

> I just saw this topic heading.

>

> I think if everyone stopped vaxing intitially there would be a big

> fallout. There would probably be an increase in morbidity and

> mortality amongst infants due to measles. I am not worried about my 5

> and 7yo getting measles but I would be considerably worried about a

> baby gettting it. Due to the vax program mothers have alot less

> immunity to protect their infants in the first year. I, for one, don't

> have natural immunity to measles - and perhaps those who do would not

> be getting their immunity 'boosted' periodically because the virus is

> not really circulating these days.

>

> I could be very wrong (I would hope so!); but I think this seems a

> likely scenario and it would take awhile for things to rebalance.

>

> When people say they believe there is no such thing as herd immunity

> I'm a little confused. Why else have measles outbreaks effectively

> stopped? I'm not convinced of the long-term safety but this seems to

> be one vaccine that is very effective.

>

> Carly.

>

> ---------------------------------

> Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who

> knows.

> Answers - Check it out.

>

>

[Guest guest]

We have had two pertussis outbreaks at the daycare DD is in. She has not

gotten it - I think that full-term breastfeeding really protects against a

lot of childhood illness.

We have a lady in our office from Iran and when she became a Mother she said

her Doctor told her as long as you breastfeed, there is no need to

vaccinate. She nursed both her children till 6 years of age.

There was an article in the month's mothering magazine on the benefits of

BFing full-term that quoted a study indicating that the immunological

properties of breastmilk actually increase once your nursing child has

reached two years of age.

So IMHO what's worked for us is breastfeeding.

Tash

On 9/21/07, Dunnagan <ibeecarrie@...> wrote:

>

> Measles isn't the one that bothers me, its whooping cough/pertussis. 13

> children under the age of one died in the US in 2004. That's about the

> average. Still very very low compared to how many are vaccine injured. But

> still a terrible desease to have to be sick with.

>

>

> Natasha Lemire-Blair <tashlb@... <tashlb%40gmail.com>> wrote:

> I had both german and red measles as a child within 4 months of each

> other,

> and under the age of a year. I know lots of people who had measles as a

> child and survived. I've never heard of anyone first-hand dying from it.

>

> What's the morbidity rates for measles in un-vaccinated populations?

>

> Curious,

>

> Tash

>

> On 9/21/07, Dunnagan <ibeecarrie@... <ibeecarrie%40>>

> wrote:

> >

> > I agree with you Carly. I have already had boosters and a titre check in

> > the last 3 years and I'm okay. (all I needed was an MMR) My dh will be

> > getting either boosters or a titre check so that we can protect our

> baby.

> > She is too little for these shots and has shown that she has bad

> reactions

> > to them. She can make a choice for herself when she is grown to

> vaccinate or

> > not. In the mean time we will sacrifice in order to protect her. We

> believe

> > they work but also hurt. Half dozen of one, six of the other.

> >

> >

> >

> > Carly <poppetspaws@...

<poppetspaws%40optusnet.com.au><poppetspaws%40optusnet.com.au>> wrote:

> > I just saw this topic heading.

> >

> > I think if everyone stopped vaxing intitially there would be a big

> > fallout. There would probably be an increase in morbidity and

> > mortality amongst infants due to measles. I am not worried about my 5

> > and 7yo getting measles but I would be considerably worried about a

> > baby gettting it. Due to the vax program mothers have alot less

> > immunity to protect their infants in the first year. I, for one, don't

> > have natural immunity to measles - and perhaps those who do would not

> > be getting their immunity 'boosted' periodically because the virus is

> > not really circulating these days.

> >

> > I could be very wrong (I would hope so!); but I think this seems a

> > likely scenario and it would take awhile for things to rebalance.

> >

> > When people say they believe there is no such thing as herd immunity

> > I'm a little confused. Why else have measles outbreaks effectively

> > stopped? I'm not convinced of the long-term safety but this seems to

> > be one vaccine that is very effective.

> >

> > Carly.

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who

> > knows.

> > Answers - Check it out.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I agree. I always have to ask though, were they being breastfed? Were they

living in clean conditions and were they diagnosed properly? There is a whole

host of issues that come into play when we repeat that 13 children died of

pertussis. And, and I don't mean this light hearted, as my heart would be broken

in pieces if one of my children were one of the 13 -- but out of 280 million

people in America, 13 is miniscule number.

I think the chances of being harmed by a vaccine are much greater, but that's

because I'm a mother of a vaccine injured child, so my outlook reflects that!

Re: Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

Measles isn't the one that bothers me, its whooping cough/pertussis. 13 children

under the age of one died in the US in 2004. That's about the average. Still

very very low compared to how many are vaccine injured. But still a terrible

desease to have to be sick with.

Natasha Lemire-Blair <tashlbgmail (DOT) com> wrote:

I had both german and red measles as a child within 4 months of each other,

and under the age of a year. I know lots of people who had measles as a

child and survived. I've never heard of anyone first-hand dying from it.

What's the morbidity rates for measles in un-vaccinated populations?

Curious,

Tash

On 9/21/07, Dunnagan <ibeecarrie (DOT) com> wrote:

>

> I agree with you Carly. I have already had boosters and a titre check in

> the last 3 years and I'm okay. (all I needed was an MMR) My dh will be

> getting either boosters or a titre check so that we can protect our baby.

> She is too little for these shots and has shown that she has bad reactions

> to them. She can make a choice for herself when she is grown to vaccinate or

> not. In the mean time we will sacrifice in order to protect her. We believe

> they work but also hurt. Half dozen of one, six of the other.

>

>

>

> Carly <poppetspaws@ optusnet. com.au <poppetspaws% 40optusnet. com.au>> wrote:

> I just saw this topic heading.

>

> I think if everyone stopped vaxing intitially there would be a big

> fallout. There would probably be an increase in morbidity and

> mortality amongst infants due to measles. I am not worried about my 5

> and 7yo getting measles but I would be considerably worried about a

> baby gettting it. Due to the vax program mothers have alot less

> immunity to protect their infants in the first year. I, for one, don't

> have natural immunity to measles - and perhaps those who do would not

> be getting their immunity 'boosted' periodically because the virus is

> not really circulating these days.

>

> I could be very wrong (I would hope so!); but I think this seems a

> likely scenario and it would take awhile for things to rebalance.

>

> When people say they believe there is no such thing as herd immunity

> I'm a little confused. Why else have measles outbreaks effectively

> stopped? I'm not convinced of the long-term safety but this seems to

> be one vaccine that is very effective.

>

> Carly.

>

> ------------ --------- --------- ---

> Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who

> knows.

> Answers - Check it out.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I had them too. I also had scarlett fever, chicken pox and I think the mumps!

I'm here to say, I barely remember any of it.

They haven't done that study, to my understanding, that's part of the issue!!

Re: Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

I had both german and red measles as a child within 4 months of each other,

and under the age of a year. I know lots of people who had measles as a

child and survived. I've never heard of anyone first-hand dying from it.

What's the morbidity rates for measles in un-vaccinated populations?

Curious,

Tash

On 9/21/07, Dunnagan <ibeecarrie (DOT) com> wrote:

>

> I agree with you Carly. I have already had boosters and a titre check in

> the last 3 years and I'm okay. (all I needed was an MMR) My dh will be

> getting either boosters or a titre check so that we can protect our baby.

> She is too little for these shots and has shown that she has bad reactions

> to them. She can make a choice for herself when she is grown to vaccinate or

> not. In the mean time we will sacrifice in order to protect her. We believe

> they work but also hurt. Half dozen of one, six of the other.

>

>

>

> Carly <poppetspaws@ optusnet. com.au <poppetspaws% 40optusnet. com.au>> wrote:

> I just saw this topic heading.

>

> I think if everyone stopped vaxing intitially there would be a big

> fallout. There would probably be an increase in morbidity and

> mortality amongst infants due to measles. I am not worried about my 5

> and 7yo getting measles but I would be considerably worried about a

> baby gettting it. Due to the vax program mothers have alot less

> immunity to protect their infants in the first year. I, for one, don't

> have natural immunity to measles - and perhaps those who do would not

> be getting their immunity 'boosted' periodically because the virus is

> not really circulating these days.

>

> I could be very wrong (I would hope so!); but I think this seems a

> likely scenario and it would take awhile for things to rebalance.

>

> When people say they believe there is no such thing as herd immunity

> I'm a little confused. Why else have measles outbreaks effectively

> stopped? I'm not convinced of the long-term safety but this seems to

> be one vaccine that is very effective.

>

> Carly.

>

> ------------ --------- --------- ---

> Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who

> knows.

> Answers - Check it out.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I had measles as a child too, Tash. I had all the childhood illnesses -

including pertussis against which I was vaccinated. <rolls eyes> My

friends all had measles. We all survived it, and like you, I never knew

anyone who was desperately ill or died from it. I have said many times that

I think in part that was because our mothers knew how to *nurse* us when

ill. My memory of measles was two weeks in bed in a darkened room, plenty

of sleep and plenty of fluids, and being rather fed up that I wasn't playing

with my friends!! I think that measles itself is pretty inocuous - but like

flu, its complications can be serious. But I also believe that

complications can arise in part because of poor care. Malnutrition also

plays a part in measles complications, as with many other illnesses.

There will always be exceptions - it's possible to die from a common cold if

complications set in. Another reason to approach it from the angle of

keeping the body healthy and strong, rather than worry about treating an

illness if and when it arrives.

I have to be honest - I fail to understand the hysteria that surrounds

measles and all the other childhood illnesses. I've never been able to

understand why a vaccine was ever developed against an illness that has been

noted to offer protection against atopic illness, diabetes and cancer in

later life. No contest, in my book.

I don't believe it's that easy to obtain accurate statistics for measles

morbidity - or do you mean mortality? Have a look at this:

http://www.hpa.org.uk/infections/topics_az/measles/nots_and_deaths.htm -

it's for the UK, but covers the period 1940-2006. and if you look at the

accompanying graph

(http://www.hpa.org.uk/infections/topics_az/measles/measles_deaths2007.htm)

it is easy to see that measles deaths plummeted long before the vaccine was

introduced. Case closed for me...

Love, light and peace,

Sue

>*>

>*> I had both german and red measles as a child within 4 months

>*> of each other,

>*> and under the age of a year. I know lots of people who had

>*> measles as a

>*> child and survived. I've never heard of anyone first-hand

>*> dying from it.

>*>

>*> What's the morbidity rates for measles in un-vaccinated populations?

>*>

>*> Curious,

>*>

>*> Tash

[Guest guest]

We are def going to do extended breastfeeding. It has so many benefits.

Natasha Lemire-Blair <tashlb@...> wrote:

We have had two pertussis outbreaks at the daycare DD is in. She has

not

gotten it - I think that full-term breastfeeding really protects against a

lot of childhood illness.

We have a lady in our office from Iran and when she became a Mother she said

her Doctor told her as long as you breastfeed, there is no need to

vaccinate. She nursed both her children till 6 years of age.

There was an article in the month's mothering magazine on the benefits of

BFing full-term that quoted a study indicating that the immunological

properties of breastmilk actually increase once your nursing child has

reached two years of age.

So IMHO what's worked for us is breastfeeding.

Tash

On 9/21/07, Dunnagan <ibeecarrie@...> wrote:

>

> Measles isn't the one that bothers me, its whooping cough/pertussis. 13

> children under the age of one died in the US in 2004. That's about the

> average. Still very very low compared to how many are vaccine injured. But

> still a terrible desease to have to be sick with.

>

>

> Natasha Lemire-Blair <tashlb@... <tashlb%40gmail.com>> wrote:

> I had both german and red measles as a child within 4 months of each

> other,

> and under the age of a year. I know lots of people who had measles as a

> child and survived. I've never heard of anyone first-hand dying from it.

>

> What's the morbidity rates for measles in un-vaccinated populations?

>

> Curious,

>

> Tash

>

> On 9/21/07, Dunnagan <ibeecarrie@... <ibeecarrie%40>>

> wrote:

> >

> > I agree with you Carly. I have already had boosters and a titre check in

> > the last 3 years and I'm okay. (all I needed was an MMR) My dh will be

> > getting either boosters or a titre check so that we can protect our

> baby.

> > She is too little for these shots and has shown that she has bad

> reactions

> > to them. She can make a choice for herself when she is grown to

> vaccinate or

> > not. In the mean time we will sacrifice in order to protect her. We

> believe

> > they work but also hurt. Half dozen of one, six of the other.

> >

> >

> >

> > Carly <poppetspaws@...

<poppetspaws%40optusnet.com.au><poppetspaws%40optusnet.com.au>> wrote:

> > I just saw this topic heading.

> >

> > I think if everyone stopped vaxing intitially there would be a big

> > fallout. There would probably be an increase in morbidity and

> > mortality amongst infants due to measles. I am not worried about my 5

> > and 7yo getting measles but I would be considerably worried about a

> > baby gettting it. Due to the vax program mothers have alot less

> > immunity to protect their infants in the first year. I, for one, don't

> > have natural immunity to measles - and perhaps those who do would not

> > be getting their immunity 'boosted' periodically because the virus is

> > not really circulating these days.

> >

> > I could be very wrong (I would hope so!); but I think this seems a

> > likely scenario and it would take awhile for things to rebalance.

> >

> > When people say they believe there is no such thing as herd immunity

> > I'm a little confused. Why else have measles outbreaks effectively

> > stopped? I'm not convinced of the long-term safety but this seems to

> > be one vaccine that is very effective.

> >

> > Carly.

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who

> > knows.

> > Answers - Check it out.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Real herd immunity is when these illnesses are aquired naturally, not

artificially. Vaxes stimulate a different level of the immune system than it

would if one aquired something as Measles or CP naturally.....and it's because

of the artificial stimulation of the wrong level of the immune system that those

who have been vaxed can still get the illnesses considered childhood diseases or

can spread it to others.

Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

I just saw this topic heading.

I think if everyone stopped vaxing intitially there would be a big

fallout. There would probably be an increase in morbidity and

mortality amongst infants due to measles. I am not worried about my 5

and 7yo getting measles but I would be considerably worried about a

baby gettting it. Due to the vax program mothers have alot less

immunity to protect their infants in the first year. I, for one, don't

have natural immunity to measles - and perhaps those who do would not

be getting their immunity 'boosted' periodically because the virus is

not really circulating these days.

I could be very wrong (I would hope so!); but I think this seems a

likely scenario and it would take awhile for things to rebalance.

When people say they believe there is no such thing as herd immunity

I'm a little confused. Why else have measles outbreaks effectively

stopped? I'm not convinced of the long-term safety but this seems to

be one vaccine that is very effective.

Carly.

[Guest guest]

Hi Carly,

I don't think the cycles of measles have disappeared - much the same way we

can't " get rid " of whooping cough, despite their claims of 95% vaccination to do

just that. There was just an " outbreak " of measles (and I use the term loosely

since it affected a whopping 20 or 30 people) in Illinois or somewhere. I think

that the disease " cycle " was already going down and what we see today is the

result of better nuturition (people in the 30's weren't eating all that well),

better recognition of disease in general and better cleanliness.

I also agree totally with another poster who said the " nursing " part of

mothering is underrated and highly important in the event of ANY disease. We

have mothers today who couldn't really mother if their were given a manual. I do

not mean that to ANYONE on this list, rather to mothers who throw their kids

into daycare in their fourth week of life and go balls to the wall from there.

Or mothers who take their child to the doctor for a sniffle but then when a real

disease comes along don't know that your child just needs some love, a darkened

room, some chicken soup (real ckn soup) some color crayons and time to SLEEP.

I too have been reading and researching vaccines for close to six years, the

year my daughter was injured from one, and I dealt with a lot of fear at first.

Now, I am more convinced than ever that vaccines are a joke.

Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

,

If herd immunity is a myth - I am wondering why the periodic cycles of

measles have dissapeared since widespread MMR vaccination? What is

your theory?

Believe me, in my 5.5 years of research I have run the gamut

of " vaccination is safe and effective " to " vaccination is unsafe and

ineffective " and now I have ended up somewhere in the middle. I find

the more research I do the more moderate my views haev become. I

always suspected the *truth* was somewhere in the middle. There are

many shades of grey to this subject, IMO.

I no longer vaccinate my kids (haven't since my youngest was born).

Not because I don't think they are effective (and I don't think we can

make blanket statements as each vaccine is different)but because there

are no long-term studies to convince me of the safety.

Carly.

[Guest guest]

From my understanding, and I haven't been able to find original sources for

this, the HI was based on a vaccinated cattle herd, not on natural immunity??

Anyone know where we can get some clarification on this?

Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what. ....????? ?

I just saw this topic heading.

I think if everyone stopped vaxing intitially there would be a big

fallout. There would probably be an increase in morbidity and

mortality amongst infants due to measles. I am not worried about my 5

and 7yo getting measles but I would be considerably worried about a

baby gettting it. Due to the vax program mothers have alot less

immunity to protect their infants in the first year. I, for one, don't

have natural immunity to measles - and perhaps those who do would not

be getting their immunity 'boosted' periodically because the virus is

not really circulating these days.

I could be very wrong (I would hope so!); but I think this seems a

likely scenario and it would take awhile for things to rebalance.

When people say they believe there is no such thing as herd immunity

I'm a little confused. Why else have measles outbreaks effectively

stopped? I'm not convinced of the long-term safety but this seems to

be one vaccine that is very effective.

Carly.

[Guest guest]

Hi Carly,

I guess we're just dealing with two different perspectives. Since you can't

prove herd immunity, to me, you also can't qualify it. In other words, it's a

marketing ploy.

I'm in sales and marketing, and " studies " are all about your goal. Want to scare

people -- give them the herd immunity theory -- want to frigthen parents -- show

them old, old pictures of poor kids who has the worse possible case of a

disease. Same way with marketing -- want to sell a car -- tell parents it's

their " duty " to buy the safest car out their to " protect " their kids -- even

though in the case of an accident with a semi-truck, it won't matter what car

you're in.

Does that make sense?

Anyway, I'm not so much anti-vax as I am anti-injury and our babies are being

injured left and right. I think measles has died down because that's what

diseases do, they come they go -- quite like the plague, you don't hear anyone

dying of it today, that doesn't mean it couldn't happen, but that particular

diease ran its course amongst humans. There is a new virus out in Africa that

hasn't been around for 50 years and is suddenly back, and there never was a

vaccine for it -- what is the answer there? We just don't know half of what we

think we know as humans, imo.

Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

Hi Lori,

Yes I am talking about artificial immunity. From what I can gather

that is what the whole theory is about. From Wikipedia -

" Although no vaccine offers 100% protection, the spread of disease

from person to person is much higher in those who remain un-vaccinated.

[5] Virologists have found that when a certain percentage of a

population is vaccinated, the spread of the disease is effectively

stopped. This critical percentage, called the herd immunity threshold,

depends on the disease and the vaccine.[4] It is the general aim of

those involved in public health to establish herd immunity in most

populations. "

http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Herd_immunity

Carly.

[Guest guest]

Yep, that's the post I was thinking about as well! But now I see that I misread

the vaccination part! Thanks for the reminder.

Re: Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

Somone asked for the actual study on where herd immunity came from? I asked

about this about a month ago and thought since it was brought back up i

would repost it. Hope that's ok.

This was posted on this list by Meryl a few weeks ago...

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

And actually, herd immunity itself never had any relation to

vaccination. I remember hearing Viera Scheibner speak about this and I

think it's in her book which is now out of print, as well.

There was a researcher in the 1930's named Hedrich (not sure if I've

spelled that right or not - doing this from memory) who was studying

cattle - an actual HERD! LOL Anyway, there was a disease that lots of

cattle get and what he found was that when enough of the calves had

contracted this disease and recovered from it, there would be a long

inter-epidemic period when there might be a sporadic case or two, but

there would not be any epidemics until there were enough susceptible

young cattle around to sustain a larger outbreak. This was then called

herd immunity. He found that when approximately 60-65% of the cattle

were immune due to infection, there would be a period of 3 to 4 years

without an outbreak. Then, the outbreak would occur - not because of any

lifetime immunity amongst the population - but simply because young

cattle had been born and did not have this native immunity from

infection.

Herd immunity NEVER had anything to do with vaccinations. It was simply

a concept which was opportunistically grabbed by people who had a

vaccine barrow to push and spread by the media which neither thinks nor

questions any statements made by doctors or pharmaceutical company

goons.

Today in both the US and Australia (the only countries whose statistics

I am familiar enough with to make this comment) though vaccination

against whooping cough is in excess of the rates postulated to represent

herd immunity - when we have been told that there will be no disease at

all - we have more cases of whooping cough per capita then at any time

since prior to mass vaccination campaigns began.

Now, if whooping cough vaccination provided even MINIMAL protection from

the disease, we would expect to have seen a decline in incidence.

Instead, we have seen incidence shoot up.

This is because vaccines only produce antibodies - and as has been said

many times - antibodies do not equal immunity.

Herd immunity has nothing to do with vaccination and will never mean the

end of disease - it is only a term meant to indicate that there are

either more or less susceptible individuals in the 'herd' being studied.

And as an interesting side note - one effect that vaccinations have had

on the herd immunity has been to shorten the inter-epidemic period

between outbreaks. These used to occur with most childhood diseases in

3-5 year cycles. That cycle has now been shortened for most of these

illnesses to 2-3 years apart. Great job vaccine! NOT!

Peace, love and light,

Alyssa

" Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, and

dance like you do when nobody's watching. "

" All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good people do

nothing. "

(http://pregnancy. baby-gaga. com/)

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************ ********* ********* ******** See what's new at http://www.aol. com

[Guest guest]

anna how was your child injured if you don't mind me asking? My daughter two

weeks after having the shots went into a seizure...to this day they say oh it is

febrile seizures..my son also has these. I don't know much of the link,but I

have chosen to see about not even getting my baby which was born 2 weeks ago

vaccinated due to this.

Clemons <clemonsmary@...> wrote: I agree. I always have

to ask though, were they being breastfed? Were they living in clean conditions

and were they diagnosed properly? There is a whole host of issues that come into

play when we repeat that 13 children died of pertussis. And, and I don't mean

this light hearted, as my heart would be broken in pieces if one of my children

were one of the 13 -- but out of 280 million people in America, 13 is miniscule

number.

I think the chances of being harmed by a vaccine are much greater, but that's

because I'm a mother of a vaccine injured child, so my outlook reflects that!

Re: Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

Measles isn't the one that bothers me, its whooping cough/pertussis. 13 children

under the age of one died in the US in 2004. That's about the average. Still

very very low compared to how many are vaccine injured. But still a terrible

desease to have to be sick with.

Natasha Lemire-Blair <tashlbgmail (DOT) com> wrote:

I had both german and red measles as a child within 4 months of each other,

and under the age of a year. I know lots of people who had measles as a

child and survived. I've never heard of anyone first-hand dying from it.

What's the morbidity rates for measles in un-vaccinated populations?

Curious,

Tash

On 9/21/07, Dunnagan <ibeecarrie (DOT) com> wrote:

>

> I agree with you Carly. I have already had boosters and a titre check in

> the last 3 years and I'm okay. (all I needed was an MMR) My dh will be

> getting either boosters or a titre check so that we can protect our baby.

> She is too little for these shots and has shown that she has bad reactions

> to them. She can make a choice for herself when she is grown to vaccinate or

> not. In the mean time we will sacrifice in order to protect her. We believe

> they work but also hurt. Half dozen of one, six of the other.

>

>

>

> Carly <poppetspaws@ optusnet. com.au <poppetspaws% 40optusnet. com.au>> wrote:

> I just saw this topic heading.

>

> I think if everyone stopped vaxing intitially there would be a big

> fallout. There would probably be an increase in morbidity and

> mortality amongst infants due to measles. I am not worried about my 5

> and 7yo getting measles but I would be considerably worried about a

> baby gettting it. Due to the vax program mothers have alot less

> immunity to protect their infants in the first year. I, for one, don't

> have natural immunity to measles - and perhaps those who do would not

> be getting their immunity 'boosted' periodically because the virus is

> not really circulating these days.

>

> I could be very wrong (I would hope so!); but I think this seems a

> likely scenario and it would take awhile for things to rebalance.

>

> When people say they believe there is no such thing as herd immunity

> I'm a little confused. Why else have measles outbreaks effectively

> stopped? I'm not convinced of the long-term safety but this seems to

> be one vaccine that is very effective.

>

> Carly.

>

> ------------ --------- --------- ---

> Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who

> knows.

> Answers - Check it out.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Oh, I think there is a definite link between seizures and vacc's.

Sorry, I say it so much on here, I just don't want to sound like a broken

record. My daughter got juvenile rhuematoid arthritis from her one year old MMR

series of shots. I'm not sure what other shots she got that day, but the fact

that arthritis is listed on the Merck insert (that I just found this year) tells

me it was that shot.

I was very vocal about it being from her vaccines and NO ONE out of at least a

dozen doctors/nurses told me about VAERS or about the injury compensation

program. I can only assume they didn't know or they didn't care. My daughter was

never reported, nor was my oldest daughter who ended up in the ER for two days

and had two spinal taps with a " menigitis " like condition and almost died. I was

young and my mother was dying of ALS at the time and I was her main caregiver,

so I didn't put two and two together. To my memory that was the last vacc's I

gave my oldest -- and my other daughter stopped at one as well. youngest child

is now 18 months and NO vacc's.

Although I did circumsize him and am now just learning bout the dangers of that

as well. In fact, the story that was on here the other day about a little boy

with half a penis breaks my heart in two and I thank GOD nothing like that

happened to my boy.............

Re: Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what. ....????? ?

Measles isn't the one that bothers me, its whooping cough/pertussis. 13 children

under the age of one died in the US in 2004. That's about the average. Still

very very low compared to how many are vaccine injured. But still a terrible

desease to have to be sick with.

Natasha Lemire-Blair <tashlbgmail (DOT) com> wrote:

I had both german and red measles as a child within 4 months of each other,

and under the age of a year. I know lots of people who had measles as a

child and survived. I've never heard of anyone first-hand dying from it.

What's the morbidity rates for measles in un-vaccinated populations?

Curious,

Tash

On 9/21/07, Dunnagan <ibeecarrie@ . com> wrote:

>

> I agree with you Carly. I have already had boosters and a titre check in

> the last 3 years and I'm okay. (all I needed was an MMR) My dh will be

> getting either boosters or a titre check so that we can protect our baby.

> She is too little for these shots and has shown that she has bad reactions

> to them. She can make a choice for herself when she is grown to vaccinate or

> not. In the mean time we will sacrifice in order to protect her. We believe

> they work but also hurt. Half dozen of one, six of the other.

>

>

>

> Carly <poppetspaws@ optusnet. com.au <poppetspaws% 40optusnet. com.au>> wrote:

> I just saw this topic heading.

>

> I think if everyone stopped vaxing intitially there would be a big

> fallout. There would probably be an increase in morbidity and

> mortality amongst infants due to measles. I am not worried about my 5

> and 7yo getting measles but I would be considerably worried about a

> baby gettting it. Due to the vax program mothers have alot less

> immunity to protect their infants in the first year. I, for one, don't

> have natural immunity to measles - and perhaps those who do would not

> be getting their immunity 'boosted' periodically because the virus is

> not really circulating these days.

>

> I could be very wrong (I would hope so!); but I think this seems a

> likely scenario and it would take awhile for things to rebalance.

>

> When people say they believe there is no such thing as herd immunity

> I'm a little confused. Why else have measles outbreaks effectively

> stopped? I'm not convinced of the long-term safety but this seems to

> be one vaccine that is very effective.

>

> Carly.

>

> ------------ --------- --------- ---

> Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who

> knows.

> Answers - Check it out.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

If you consider the fact that probably at least half of the population has never

had the measles vaccine and a large percentage of the remaining people haven't

had one in a long time, possibly decades, then you can start to understand that

vaccines do not prevent measles or anything else. If you look deep enough, you

will find that measles was on a rapid decline BEFORE they introduced the

vaccine. Ditto polio and a host of other diseases.

They claimed that the small pox vaccine eradicated small pox. How can this be so

when only about 10% of the world population ever got the vaccine?

It's just another lie from the vaccine mfgs.

It is the sanitary conditions we live in today that has all but stopped these

illnesses, not the vaccines. For instance, up until the last century, most

people of the world slept on straw mattresses. It turns out that the small pox

virus just loves the environment created by straw. So, when people switched to

cotton bedding, the small pox rate declined accordingly.

And, one more thing. The flu vaccine. Only about 10% or less of the U.S. gets it

every year. So, why isn't their serious outbreaks of flu every year?

Look in the PDR and you will find that the side effects for flu vaccine match

exactly flu symptoms.

It may be why thousands of nursing home residents die each year of the flu.

Always after getting the flu shot.

Joe

Carly <poppetspaws@...> wrote: I just

saw this topic heading.

I think if everyone stopped vaxing intitially there would be a big

fallout. There would probably be an increase in morbidity and

mortality amongst infants due to measles. I am not worried about my 5

and 7yo getting measles but I would be considerably worried about a

baby gettting it. Due to the vax program mothers have alot less

immunity to protect their infants in the first year. I, for one, don't

have natural immunity to measles - and perhaps those who do would not

be getting their immunity 'boosted' periodically because the virus is

not really circulating these days.

I could be very wrong (I would hope so!); but I think this seems a

likely scenario and it would take awhile for things to rebalance.

When people say they believe there is no such thing as herd immunity

I'm a little confused. Why else have measles outbreaks effectively

stopped? I'm not convinced of the long-term safety but this seems to

be one vaccine that is very effective.

Carly.

For some truth in jurnalism go to:

http://www.thenewamerican.com

Also visit:http://www.moosewoodart.com/pages/1/index.htm

---------------------------------

Shape in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

[Guest guest]

So, basically, you think the vaccine works. I think it just gives our body a

case of chronic measles that our immune system has to fight. Might be a case of

semantics, might not.

I pretty much get my vax news here, I just don't have time for the forums, but I

appreciate the offer. Also, I just don't buy into " evidence " and " studies " as a

student of statistics I was taught than anything can be altered to fit your

argument. As a marketing professional I see the marketing behind vaccines. As a

mother I see the injury.

I really don't know. I'm simply saying what I think to be true. I don't know why

Germany would have more cases of measles, but my question to that would be -- do

they have more cases of death from measles?

I don't know the answers, all I know is that if measles " came back " it wouldn't

be the end of the world -- vax's or no vax's.

Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

>> Anyway, I'm not so much anti-vax as I am anti-injury and our

babies are being injured left and right. I think measles has died

down because that's what diseases do, they come they go -- quite

like the plague, you don't hear anyone dying of it today, that

doesn't mean it couldn't happen, but that particular diease ran its

course amongst humans.

>

,

I'm not trying to prove anything - the evidence suggests it. The

scientific community certainly seems to accept the hypothesis.

You say measles has run it's course on its own. I think this is just

not true. Why are there still epidemics in other countries? Why is

it more widespread in Germany? Might it be because their vaccination

rates are much lower?

The fact is that measles ISN'T " coming and going " . The natural cycle

has been interrupted somehow. It may come back at some stage - I'm

not saying it won't - but to deny that vaccination has had any

effect flies in the face of the evidence.

Carly.

PS. I really recommend the Mothering vaccine forum for lots of fact-

based information. There are credentialled people on both sides and

lots of interesting debate.

[Guest guest]

Hi, In all the research I've done, I have discovered that when ever their is an

outbreak of an illness, like measles, then you will find that the majority of

those that get the measles have been vaccinated. This holds true across the

spectrum of illnesses vaccinated for.

Joe

P.S. This is on a per capita basis. 100 vaccinated and 100 not vaccinated. You

will always find more cases among the vaccinated.

Carly <poppetspaws@...> wrote:

>> Anyway, I'm not so much anti-vax as I am anti-injury and our

babies are being injured left and right. I think measles has died

down because that's what diseases do, they come they go -- quite

like the plague, you don't hear anyone dying of it today, that

doesn't mean it couldn't happen, but that particular diease ran its

course amongst humans.

>

,

I'm not trying to prove anything - the evidence suggests it. The

scientific community certainly seems to accept the hypothesis.

You say measles has run it's course on its own. I think this is just

not true. Why are there still epidemics in other countries? Why is

it more widespread in Germany? Might it be because their vaccination

rates are much lower?

The fact is that measles ISN'T " coming and going " . The natural cycle

has been interrupted somehow. It may come back at some stage - I'm

not saying it won't - but to deny that vaccination has had any

effect flies in the face of the evidence.

Carly.

PS. I really recommend the Mothering vaccine forum for lots of fact-

based information. There are credentialled people on both sides and

lots of interesting debate.

For some truth in jurnalism go to:

http://www.thenewamerican.com

Also visit:http://www.moosewoodart.com/pages/1/index.htm

---------------------------------

Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Guest guest]

Joe, what do you say to the whole " Germany has higher rates of measles cases and

lower vaccination numbers? " that Carly asked me about?

Thanks

Re: Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

Hi

If you consider the fact that probably at least half of the population has never

had the measles vaccine and a large percentage of the remaining people haven't

had one in a long time, possibly decades, then you can start to understand that

vaccines do not prevent measles or anything else. If you look deep enough, you

will find that measles was on a rapid decline BEFORE they introduced the

vaccine. Ditto polio and a host of other diseases.

They claimed that the small pox vaccine eradicated small pox. How can this be so

when only about 10% of the world population ever got the vaccine?

It's just another lie from the vaccine mfgs.

It is the sanitary conditions we live in today that has all but stopped these

illnesses, not the vaccines. For instance, up until the last century, most

people of the world slept on straw mattresses. It turns out that the small pox

virus just loves the environment created by straw. So, when people switched to

cotton bedding, the small pox rate declined accordingly.

And, one more thing. The flu vaccine. Only about 10% or less of the U.S. gets it

every year. So, why isn't their serious outbreaks of flu every year?

Look in the PDR and you will find that the side effects for flu vaccine match

exactly flu symptoms.

It may be why thousands of nursing home residents die each year of the flu.

Always after getting the flu shot.

Joe

Carly <poppetspaws@ optusnet. com.au> wrote: I just saw this topic heading.

I think if everyone stopped vaxing intitially there would be a big

fallout. There would probably be an increase in morbidity and

mortality amongst infants due to measles. I am not worried about my 5

and 7yo getting measles but I would be considerably worried about a

baby gettting it. Due to the vax program mothers have alot less

immunity to protect their infants in the first year. I, for one, don't

have natural immunity to measles - and perhaps those who do would not

be getting their immunity 'boosted' periodically because the virus is

not really circulating these days.

I could be very wrong (I would hope so!); but I think this seems a

likely scenario and it would take awhile for things to rebalance.

When people say they believe there is no such thing as herd immunity

I'm a little confused. Why else have measles outbreaks effectively

stopped? I'm not convinced of the long-term safety but this seems to

be one vaccine that is very effective.

Carly.

For some truth in jurnalism go to:

http://www.thenewam erican.com

Also visit:http://www.moosewoo dart.com/ pages/1/index. htm

------------ --------- --------- ---

Shape in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

[Guest guest]

That goes back to my idea then that the vaccinated ones are actually " causing "

the outbreak (via their sloughing off of the virus)? No? Agree? Disagree?

Re: Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

Hi, In all the research I've done, I have discovered that when ever their is an

outbreak of an illness, like measles, then you will find that the majority of

those that get the measles have been vaccinated. This holds true across the

spectrum of illnesses vaccinated for.

Joe

P.S. This is on a per capita basis. 100 vaccinated and 100 not vaccinated. You

will always find more cases among the vaccinated.

Carly <poppetspaws@ optusnet. com.au> wrote:

>> Anyway, I'm not so much anti-vax as I am anti-injury and our

babies are being injured left and right. I think measles has died

down because that's what diseases do, they come they go -- quite

like the plague, you don't hear anyone dying of it today, that

doesn't mean it couldn't happen, but that particular diease ran its

course amongst humans.

>

,

I'm not trying to prove anything - the evidence suggests it. The

scientific community certainly seems to accept the hypothesis.

You say measles has run it's course on its own. I think this is just

not true. Why are there still epidemics in other countries? Why is

it more widespread in Germany? Might it be because their vaccination

rates are much lower?

The fact is that measles ISN'T " coming and going " . The natural cycle

has been interrupted somehow. It may come back at some stage - I'm

not saying it won't - but to deny that vaccination has had any

effect flies in the face of the evidence.

Carly.

PS. I really recommend the Mothering vaccine forum for lots of fact-

based information. There are credentialled people on both sides and

lots of interesting debate.

For some truth in jurnalism go to:

http://www.thenewam erican.com

Also visit:http://www.moosewoo dart.com/ pages/1/index. htm

------------ --------- --------- ---

Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Guest guest]

The articles I've read about it indicate that most of the cases occurred among

the un-vaccinated.It would be hard to tell if this is true without going to

Germany and surveying the cases yourself. In cases I have read where an

independent survey has been conducted the opposite has been the case. And that

was after the gov't claimed that most had occurred in un-vaccinated populations.

I just need to go on and say that it would be normal for cases to occur among

un-vaccinated populations. It is the natural order of things.

In a measles outbreak at a mid west college some time ago, The National

Geographic magazine reported that most of the cases had occurred among the

vaccinated.

Based on the demonstrated continuous deception by the FDA about the

effectiveness of vaccines, and all the research I've done about it, I tend to

believe that you are more susceptible to the illness if you have been

vaccinated. Both my children were vaccinated against the measles and both got it

any way.

None of my 6 grand babies have ever been vaccinated and none have ever had any

of the vaccine associated illnesses. It doesn't mean they won't get them at some

time but they haven't so far.

Joe

Clemons <clemonsmary@...> wrote:

Joe, what do you say to the whole " Germany has higher rates of measles cases and

lower vaccination numbers? " that Carly asked me about?

Thanks

Re: Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

Hi

If you consider the fact that probably at least half of the population has

never had the measles vaccine and a large percentage of the remaining people

haven't had one in a long time, possibly decades, then you can start to

understand that vaccines do not prevent measles or anything else. If you look

deep enough, you will find that measles was on a rapid decline BEFORE they

introduced the vaccine. Ditto polio and a host of other diseases.

They claimed that the small pox vaccine eradicated small pox. How can this be

so when only about 10% of the world population ever got the vaccine?

It's just another lie from the vaccine mfgs.

It is the sanitary conditions we live in today that has all but stopped these

illnesses, not the vaccines. For instance, up until the last century, most

people of the world slept on straw mattresses. It turns out that the small pox

virus just loves the environment created by straw. So, when people switched to

cotton bedding, the small pox rate declined accordingly.

And, one more thing. The flu vaccine. Only about 10% or less of the U.S. gets

it every year. So, why isn't their serious outbreaks of flu every year?

Look in the PDR and you will find that the side effects for flu vaccine match

exactly flu symptoms.

It may be why thousands of nursing home residents die each year of the flu.

Always after getting the flu shot.

Joe

Carly <poppetspaws@ optusnet. com.au> wrote: I just saw this topic heading.

I think if everyone stopped vaxing intitially there would be a big

fallout. There would probably be an increase in morbidity and

mortality amongst infants due to measles. I am not worried about my 5

and 7yo getting measles but I would be considerably worried about a

baby gettting it. Due to the vax program mothers have alot less

immunity to protect their infants in the first year. I, for one, don't

have natural immunity to measles - and perhaps those who do would not

be getting their immunity 'boosted' periodically because the virus is

not really circulating these days.

I could be very wrong (I would hope so!); but I think this seems a

likely scenario and it would take awhile for things to rebalance.

When people say they believe there is no such thing as herd immunity

I'm a little confused. Why else have measles outbreaks effectively

stopped? I'm not convinced of the long-term safety but this seems to

be one vaccine that is very effective.

Carly.

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[Guest guest]

That might well be the case. The great Philippine flu epidemic occurred after a

mandatory vaccination of almost the entire population, multiple times, by the

way. Tens of thousands died of the flu after being vaccinated. In provinces

where the vaccination rate was low deaths from flu occurred but in far smaller

numbers.

But they did occur. The massive death rates declined only after the vaccination

program was terminated.

Joe

Clemons <clemonsmary@...> wrote:

That goes back to my idea then that the vaccinated ones are actually " causing "

the outbreak (via their sloughing off of the virus)? No? Agree? Disagree?

Re: Re: If everyone stopped vaxing.....what.....??????

Hi, In all the research I've done, I have discovered that when ever their is an

outbreak of an illness, like measles, then you will find that the majority of

those that get the measles have been vaccinated. This holds true across the

spectrum of illnesses vaccinated for.

Joe

P.S. This is on a per capita basis. 100 vaccinated and 100 not vaccinated. You

will always find more cases among the vaccinated.

Carly <poppetspaws@ optusnet. com.au> wrote:

>> Anyway, I'm not so much anti-vax as I am anti-injury and our

babies are being injured left and right. I think measles has died

down because that's what diseases do, they come they go -- quite

like the plague, you don't hear anyone dying of it today, that

doesn't mean it couldn't happen, but that particular diease ran its

course amongst humans.

>

,

I'm not trying to prove anything - the evidence suggests it. The

scientific community certainly seems to accept the hypothesis.

You say measles has run it's course on its own. I think this is just

not true. Why are there still epidemics in other countries? Why is

it more widespread in Germany? Might it be because their vaccination

rates are much lower?

The fact is that measles ISN'T " coming and going " . The natural cycle

has been interrupted somehow. It may come back at some stage - I'm

not saying it won't - but to deny that vaccination has had any

effect flies in the face of the evidence.

Carly.

PS. I really recommend the Mothering vaccine forum for lots of fact-

based information. There are credentialled people on both sides and

lots of interesting debate.

For some truth in jurnalism go to:

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[Guest guest]

How, then, do you account for the drop in diseases that new vaccines

such as Prevnar tackle? No drop before the vaccine, no unsanitary

living conditions?

On Sep 21, 2007, at 1:13 PM, ph McGuire wrote:

> Hi

> If you consider the fact that probably at least half of the

> population has never had the measles vaccine and a large percentage

> of the remaining people haven't had one in a long time, possibly

> decades, then you can start to understand that vaccines do not

> prevent measles or anything else. If you look deep enough, you will

> find that measles was on a rapid decline BEFORE they introduced the

> vaccine. Ditto polio and a host of other diseases.

> They claimed that the small pox vaccine eradicated small pox. How

> can this be so when only about 10% of the world population ever got

> the vaccine?

> It's just another lie from the vaccine mfgs.

> It is the sanitary conditions we live in today that has all but

> stopped these illnesses, not the vaccines. For instance, up until

> the last century, most people of the world slept on straw

> mattresses. It turns out that the small pox virus just loves the

> environment created by straw. So, when people switched to cotton

> bedding, the small pox rate declined accordingly.

> And, one more thing. The flu vaccine. Only about 10% or less of the

> U.S. gets it every year. So, why isn't their serious outbreaks of

> flu every year?

> Look in the PDR and you will find that the side effects for flu

> vaccine match exactly flu symptoms.

> It may be why thousands of nursing home residents die each year of

> the flu.

> Always after getting the flu shot.

> Joe

>

> Carly <poppetspaws@...>

> wrote: I just saw this topic heading.

>

> I think if everyone stopped vaxing intitially there would be a big

> fallout. There would probably be an increase in morbidity and

> mortality amongst infants due to measles. I am not worried about my 5

> and 7yo getting measles but I would be considerably worried about a

> baby gettting it. Due to the vax program mothers have alot less

> immunity to protect their infants in the first year. I, for one,

> don't

> have natural immunity to measles - and perhaps those who do would not

> be getting their immunity 'boosted' periodically because the virus is

> not really circulating these days.

>

> I could be very wrong (I would hope so!); but I think this seems a

> likely scenario and it would take awhile for things to rebalance.

>

> When people say they believe there is no such thing as herd immunity

> I'm a little confused. Why else have measles outbreaks effectively

> stopped? I'm not convinced of the long-term safety but this seems to

> be one vaccine that is very effective.

>

> Carly.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> For some truth in jurnalism go to:

> http://www.thenewamerican.com

> Also visit:http://www.moosewoodart.com/pages/1/index.htm

>

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>

>