Re: OT: API Report on Commercial Pet Food Part 2 of 2

[Guest guest]

I think it's great that API is trying to do something good but I still wouldn't

trust any processed pet food - and carnivores shouldn't be eating cooked food

anyway! It is so easy to feed your pet carnivore an appropriate raw diet - for

anyone who wants to learn how join the group called " rawfeeding " . Also

check out these links

www.rawmeatybones.com

www.rawfed.com

www.rawlearning.com

www.rawfeddogs.net

Diane

Sheri Nakken <vaccineinfo@...> wrote:

amount of beef (which includes organs, viscera, brains, and anything

else we

wouldn't want to eat) would fill one closet. Preservatives, vitamins,

minerals, and flavorings would each take up about the volume of a drinking

glass. The rest of the house would be filled with cereal.

III. PROBLEMS PET FOOD CAN CAUSE

When asked what to do when companion animals have dull or poor quality

coats, veterinarians and breeders alike first suggest changing the companion

animals' food. The skin is the largest eliminatory organ in the body, which

is why skin and coat problems are often the first indicators of poor

nutrition. While the food you are feeding may be a top quality food, it may

not meet the nutritional needs of your particular breed or animal. Certain

nutritional requirements (for example, lysine) can vary between species by

as much as sevenfold.

The pet food industry and those who govern it have inflicted a great

injustice on our animals by establishing a general guideline for nutrients,

minerals, and vitamins. Although established minimums act as a guide for

veterinarians and companion animal care providers, very few animals can

exist on minimums. A minimum is not an ideal average for your animal, it is

a point at which research has proven that any compound below that minimum

has the potential to cause nutritional disorders. What the industry fails to

point out is that pet foods are " balanced " for the average animal, but since

no individual animal is " average " most companion animals are on one side or

the other of " normal. " Hence, one dog's food may be another dog's garbage.

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[Guest guest]

Yes and no. They aren't really " carnivores " per se anymore. We've domesticated

them and I for one don't want my dog eating raw meat and then licking my

children. I think care has to be taken as the taste of blood does different

things to different dogs.

Re: OT: API Report on Commercial Pet Food Part 2 of 2

I think it's great that API is trying to do something good but I still wouldn't

trust any processed pet food - and carnivores shouldn't be eating cooked food

anyway! It is so easy to feed your pet carnivore an appropriate raw diet - for

anyone who wants to learn how join the group called " rawfeeding " . Also

check out these links

www.rawmeatybones. com

www.rawfed.com

www.rawlearning. com

www.rawfeddogs. net

Diane

Sheri Nakken <vaccineinfo@ tesco.net> wrote:

amount of beef (which includes organs, viscera, brains, and anything else we

wouldn't want to eat) would fill one closet. Preservatives, vitamins,

minerals, and flavorings would each take up about the volume of a drinking

glass. The rest of the house would be filled with cereal.

III. PROBLEMS PET FOOD CAN CAUSE

When asked what to do when companion animals have dull or poor quality

coats, veterinarians and breeders alike first suggest changing the companion

animals' food. The skin is the largest eliminatory organ in the body, which

is why skin and coat problems are often the first indicators of poor

nutrition. While the food you are feeding may be a top quality food, it may

not meet the nutritional needs of your particular breed or animal. Certain

nutritional requirements (for example, lysine) can vary between species by

as much as sevenfold.

The pet food industry and those who govern it have inflicted a great

injustice on our animals by establishing a general guideline for nutrients,

minerals, and vitamins. Although established minimums act as a guide for

veterinarians and companion animal care providers, very few animals can

exist on minimums. A minimum is not an ideal average for your animal, it is

a point at which research has proven that any compound below that minimum

has the potential to cause nutritional disorders. What the industry fails to

point out is that pet foods are " balanced " for the average animal, but since

no individual animal is " average " most companion animals are on one side or

the other of " normal. " Hence, one dog's food may be another dog's garbage.

Recent Activity

16

New Members

Visit Your Group

FruitaBü Group

A Parent´s Place

to share ideas on

family cooking.

Share Photos

Put your favorite

photos and

more online.

Fitness Edge

A Group

about sharing fitness

and endurance goals.

..

------------ --------- --------- ---

Sick sense of humor? Visit TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on,

when.

[Guest guest]

At 06:22 AM 8/29/2007 -0700, you wrote:

>Yes and no. They aren't really " carnivores " per se anymore. We've

domesticated them and I for one don't want my dog eating raw meat and then

licking my children. I think care has to be taken as the taste of blood

does different things to different dogs.

>

>

Not sure what you mean here?

What is the problem with eating raw meat and licking your children?

And where is the data on taste of blood and different dogs.

See the links I and Diane sent

There are thousands of dogs eating raw meat in families everywhere

Sheri

> Re: OT: API Report on Commercial Pet Food Part 2 of 2

>

>

>I think it's great that API is trying to do something good but I still

wouldn't trust any processed pet food - and carnivores shouldn't be eating

cooked food anyway! It is so easy to feed your pet carnivore an appropriate

raw diet - for anyone who wants to learn how join the group called

" rawfeeding " . Also check out these links

>

>www.rawmeatybones. com

>www.rawfed.com

>www.rawlearning. com

>www.rawfeddogs. net

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm or

http://www.wellwithin1.com/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.wellwithin1.com/vaccineclass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.wellwithin1.com/homeo.htm

NEXT CLASSES start by email September 5 or 6

[Guest guest]

The taste of blood doesn't do anything to a dog. That is a myth

brought on by people who have issues with certain breeds of dogs. As

for not wanting them to lick your face or kids, I'd think that you

would be concerned with this even with a kibble fed dog's considering

they lick their butt's and eat God knows what out in the yard. I'm not

trying to be rude here, but it is really getting on my nerves hearing

people say " your going to make them vicious feeding them raw meat " .

keisha

>

> Yes and no. They aren't really " carnivores " per se anymore. We've

domesticated them and I for one don't want my dog eating raw meat and

then licking my children. I think care has to be taken as the taste of

blood does different things to different dogs.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Exactly Keisha. Dogs are DEFINITELY carnivores, domestication has NOT changed

this fact. All three of the myths that were raised are refuted here:

http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html

http://rawfed.com/myths/zoonotic.html

http://rawfed.com/myths/bloodthirsty.html

Diane

keishay79 <keishay79@...> wrote:

>

> Yes and no. They aren't really " carnivores " per se anymore. We've

domesticated them and I for one don't want my dog eating raw meat and

then licking my children. I think care has to be taken as the taste of

blood does different things to different dogs.

>

>

---------------------------------

Shape in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

[Guest guest]

I guess from my point of view, with kids and cats and horses, I have to be more

careful about what my dogs are allowed to do and what they aren't allowed to do.

Years ago we had a dog named Harley and she was a good dog, but even as a family

dog she as always pretty close to the " I'll take care of myself wild edge. "

We had ducks and chickens in the basement until they were old enough to go

outside to the coop and one day I put Harley on the back porch and forgot to

close the bottom basement door. She went down and broke their backs, did not

kill them, she broke their backs so they could not get away and then carried

them upstairs and laid them by the door leading outside. SHe didn't put them by

my door as a present, she put them by her door to deal with later. One by one

she brought them up the stairs crunching as she got there so they'd be unable to

move when they got to the door.

This is very, very primal behavior and we had a brand new baby, and this was not

her first incident with killing things, so we had her put down. Maybe fluffy at

the local apartment building is different, but I have dogs that have to be in

many different situations with many different animals. I will give them bones

that are raw if I have them, but I don't think that an all raw diet is a good

idea for us. After all, *I* would not eat an all raw diet either.

IT's just my opinion, take it for what it's worth. I have had many, many dogs

over hte years, and many that were rescues that we've rehomed through different

organizations, so I'm not a newbie to the world of dogs.

Now, on the animal vaccines, I totally agree.

Re: OT: API Report on Commercial Pet Food Part 2 of 2

The taste of blood doesn't do anything to a dog. That is a myth

brought on by people who have issues with certain breeds of dogs. As

for not wanting them to lick your face or kids, I'd think that you

would be concerned with this even with a kibble fed dog's considering

they lick their butt's and eat God knows what out in the yard. I'm not

trying to be rude here, but it is really getting on my nerves hearing

people say " your going to make them vicious feeding them raw meat " .

keisha

>

> Yes and no. They aren't really " carnivores " per se anymore. We've

domesticated them and I for one don't want my dog eating raw meat and

then licking my children. I think care has to be taken as the taste of

blood does different things to different dogs.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hey all --

I've been around dogs for a longgggg time. I've had them while living on cattle

feed yards and watched as they circled the sick cows because they would start

munching on them as soon as they went down.

I've had them kill my cats that weren't supposed to be messed with and bunnies

and chickens.

There are dogs that can revert to wild very quickly and I'm not going to have

that kind of a dog around my children. And yes, raw meat and getting back to the

primal urges of the breed can and does happen.

I'm not going to argue for a raw diet in dogs. If it works for you that's great.

I won't do it for many reasons, and one of those is cost, and one is that dogs

are dogs, not humans, not children. You cannot underestimate them and you cannot

assume you know what will and what won't " turn " a dog. There are cases of family

dogs attacking children all the time.

my two cents for the day

Re: OT: API Report on Commercial Pet Food Part 2 of 2

>

>

>I think it's great that API is trying to do something good but I still

wouldn't trust any processed pet food - and carnivores shouldn't be eating

cooked food anyway! It is so easy to feed your pet carnivore an appropriate

raw diet - for anyone who wants to learn how join the group called

" rawfeeding " . Also check out these links

>

>www.rawmeatybones. com

>www.rawfed. com

>www.rawlearning. com

>www.rawfeddogs. net

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours @tesco.net voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal. com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn. net/~wwithin/ vaccine.htm or

http://www.wellwith in1.com/vaccine. htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.wellwith in1.com/vaccinec lass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn. net/~wwithin/ vaccineclass. htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.wellwith in1.com/homeo. htm

NEXT CLASSES start by email September 5 or 6

[Guest guest]

And as carnivores, which I didn't not say they aren't, they are prone to

returning to their wild ways, and in the wild anything sick and small was fair

game for dinner.

You said you were taking this to the OT list, please do not take YOUR posts here

and shunt mine to the OT list. That's not cool.

Re: Re: OT: API Report on Commercial Pet Food Part 2 of

2

Exactly Keisha. Dogs are DEFINITELY carnivores, domestication has NOT changed

this fact. All three of the myths that were raised are refuted here:

http://rawfed. com/myths/ omnivores. html

http://rawfed. com/myths/ zoonotic. html

http://rawfed. com/myths/ bloodthirsty. html

Diane

keishay79 <keishay79 (DOT) com> wrote:

>

> Yes and no. They aren't really " carnivores " per se anymore. We've

domesticated them and I for one don't want my dog eating raw meat and

then licking my children. I think care has to be taken as the taste of

blood does different things to different dogs.

>

>

------------ --------- --------- ---

Shape in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

[Guest guest]

I must agree....I've worked in animal rescue for a number of years and have yet

to ever see a BARF or raw foods diet turn dogs into killers. Considering there

are traces of blood in many commercial pet foods (dog and cat) this is a very

blatant false myth. Dogs and cats have wild cousins and there is always going

to be a certain " wildness " in them.....a normally placid housecat can go out and

eat a bird or lizard and still be the placid housecat inside. Raw foods have

nothing to do with it.

Lori

---- keishay79 <keishay79@...> wrote:

> The taste of blood doesn't do anything to a dog. That is a myth

> brought on by people who have issues with certain breeds of dogs. As

> for not wanting them to lick your face or kids, I'd think that you

> would be concerned with this even with a kibble fed dog's considering

> they lick their butt's and eat God knows what out in the yard. I'm not

> trying to be rude here, but it is really getting on my nerves hearing

> people say " your going to make them vicious feeding them raw meat " .

>

> keisha

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dogs are still carnivores, that is their classification. The species that

they are most closely related to is the gray wolf. Just because we have

" domesticated " them doesn't mean that we have changed their DNA, especailly

since the whole dog food business is a fairly new industry. Dogs do not

" kill " just because they eat raw meat. Some dogs have a higer prey drive

than others and their is also vaccine damage that may cause them to act

" over the top " but it is NOT a raw diet that does this. There are way too

many people that have dogs eating a completely raw diet for this to be true.

Nobody would be doing this if it were true, it is a myth. I have been

feeding raw for over 7 years. My dogs have never looked at my cats or my

babies as " dinner " or any other animal that has wandered into the yard -

because they do not have a high prey drive and that isn't going to change.

Trish

Re: OT: API Report on Commercial Pet Food Part 2 of

2

I think it's great that API is trying to do something good but I still

wouldn't trust any processed pet food - and carnivores shouldn't be eating

cooked food anyway! It is so easy to feed your pet carnivore an appropriate

raw diet - for anyone who wants to learn how join the group called

" rawfeeding " . Also check out these links

www.rawmeatybones. com

www.rawfed.com

www.rawlearning. com

www.rawfeddogs. net

Diane

Sheri Nakken <vaccineinfo@ tesco.net> wrote:

amount of beef (which includes organs, viscera, brains, and anything else we

wouldn't want to eat) would fill one closet. Preservatives, vitamins,

minerals, and flavorings would each take up about the volume of a drinking

glass. The rest of the house would be filled with cereal.

III. PROBLEMS PET FOOD CAN CAUSE

When asked what to do when companion animals have dull or poor quality

coats, veterinarians and breeders alike first suggest changing the companion

animals' food. The skin is the largest eliminatory organ in the body, which

is why skin and coat problems are often the first indicators of poor

nutrition. While the food you are feeding may be a top quality food, it may

not meet the nutritional needs of your particular breed or animal. Certain

nutritional requirements (for example, lysine) can vary between species by

as much as sevenfold.

The pet food industry and those who govern it have inflicted a great

injustice on our animals by establishing a general guideline for nutrients,

minerals, and vitamins. Although established minimums act as a guide for

veterinarians and companion animal care providers, very few animals can

exist on minimums. A minimum is not an ideal average for your animal, it is

a point at which research has proven that any compound below that minimum

has the potential to cause nutritional disorders. What the industry fails to

point out is that pet foods are " balanced " for the average animal, but since

no individual animal is " average " most companion animals are on one side or

the other of " normal. " Hence, one dog's food may be another dog's garbage.

Recent Activity

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A Parent´s Place

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..

------------ --------- --------- ---

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when.

[Guest guest]

I don't see why this is such a big deal. As with the vaccines, people do what

they think is right for their families. She has the information, she can decide

for her family what is right.

Personally, my dogs get packaged food, we use Merrick. It isn't because I don't

think that a raw food diet isn't good for dogs, it is mostly due to the " ick

factor " . I am a vegetarian and the thought of handling raw meat makes my

stomach sick.

Sara

---- Clemons <clemonsmary@...> wrote:

> And as carnivores, which I didn't not say they aren't, they are prone to

returning to their wild ways, and in the wild anything sick and small was fair

game for dinner.

>

> You said you were taking this to the OT list, please do not take YOUR posts

here and shunt mine to the OT list. That's not cool.

>

> Re: Re: OT: API Report on Commercial Pet Food Part 2

of 2

>

> Exactly Keisha. Dogs are DEFINITELY carnivores, domestication has NOT changed

this fact. All three of the myths that were raised are refuted here:

>

> http://rawfed. com/myths/ omnivores. html

>

> http://rawfed. com/myths/ zoonotic. html

>

> http://rawfed. com/myths/ bloodthirsty. html

>

> Diane

>

> keishay79 <keishay79 (DOT) com> wrote:

>

>

> >

> > Yes and no. They aren't really " carnivores " per se anymore. We've

> domesticated them and I for one don't want my dog eating raw meat and

> then licking my children. I think care has to be taken as the taste of

> blood does different things to different dogs.

> >

> >

>

> ------------ --------- --------- ---

> Shape in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

>

>

[Guest guest]

Amen, Sheri and all! The two best things I ever did was switch my furry

herd to a raw species appropriate diet and stop vaccinating them quite

literally to death. I'm still working on undoing the damage vaccines did

before I stopped them (to whatever degree we can). The species appropriate

diet is definitely helping me with that as the dogs are now getting the

nutrients they need in the form that is most bioavailable to them - raw.

And it's not bolstered with synthetic nutrients to cover up the fact that so

much has been destroyed in extreme cooking processes.

I've heard that old wives tale about " the taste of blood " making dogs

aggressive and it's complete bunk. In fact, I've noticed that properly raw

fed dogs are actually calmer and easier to manage than kibble fed ones. I

suspect that has to do with the nutrients being more easily assimilated as

well as the lack of all those carbs producing nervous energy that may not be

getting an outlet. Then there's the whole cholesterol issue. Cholesterol

dropping too low in dogs causes aggression problems. There are studies out

there on that if anyone is interested.

BTW, I found feeding raw to be cheaper, too, than feeding the higher quality

kibbles. A friend of mine was feeding a medium grade kibble and found raw

to be cheaper for her, too. It's all a matter of sourcing your meats and

RMBs.

All that said, I don't think rawfeeding does anywhere near as much good if

vaccinations are constantly being dumped into the system. Kind of like

humans who eat organic and whole foods and then allow themselves and their

kids to be vaccinated for everything under the sun. The whole foods may

help defray some of the effects of vaccination, but I haven't seen a

significant difference in the families I know that allow vaccinations from

those who have a less than stellar diet.

I wish more people could understand how well the body works together as a

unit when given proper nutrition, not polluted with toxins from vaccines,

household cleaners, yard chemicals and pesticides. I know so many who think

just eating right OR not vaccinating will save them from ills of the world.

If only it were that easy, eh? ;-)

BTW, personally, my favorite groups are:

rawpaws/ - raw diets

http://pets./group/AuNaturelK9s/ - natural rearing for

dogs - raw feeding, no vax, no chemicals

http://pets./group/jstsayno2vaccs/ - no vax for pets mostly,

but discussion ranges to other health related topics, too

I've learned a great deal from these groups and found them to be wonderful

learning environments with knowledgeable people. :-)

Dawn T

> Not sure what you mean here?

> What is the problem with eating raw meat and licking your children?

> And where is the data on taste of blood and different dogs.

> See the links I and Diane sent

> There are thousands of dogs eating raw meat in families everywhere

> Sheri

[Guest guest]

Not to forget the fact that so many contamination issues are coming up with

kibble in the last few years. Salmonella and aflatoxin especially. The way

I see it, if our immune systems are strong, regardless of what we feed our

dogs, we'll be able to resist the amount of whatever we'd be exposed to

simply by our dogs licking us. ;-)

As always, I see it as one important factor - a healthy immune system for

all! :-)

Dawn T

> The taste of blood doesn't do anything to a dog. That is a myth

> brought on by people who have issues with certain breeds of dogs. As

> for not wanting them to lick your face or kids, I'd think that you

> would be concerned with this even with a kibble fed dog's considering

> they lick their butt's and eat God knows what out in the yard. I'm not

> trying to be rude here, but it is really getting on my nerves hearing

> people say " your going to make them vicious feeding them raw meat " .

>

> keisha

[Guest guest]

Okay, I get the concern now. I know a lot of people who raw feed who have

chickens, rabbits, livestock of various kinds without any problems. This is

an individual dog behavioral issue, not a result of raw feeding. Was Harley

rawfed and that's how you believe she developed this behavior? Some dogs

are just flat out predatory, and it takes a lot of training to get them not

to be, and some of them are never trustworthy around small animals and/or

livestock. We have small animals in our home, and one of my dogs is

predatory. As a result, I don't trust him within an inch of his life if

cage doors are open and whatnot. The other two? No problem. They'll even

cuddle with the small critters given the opportunity. They've all been

rawfed for 4.5 years. It really can vary from breed to breed and individual

to individual within a breed, not to mention the training factors.

Gotta remember WE as humans have different requirements than our pet

carnivores. The physiology is different enough that they have different

nutritional needs than we do. And raw is the best way for them to get their

nutrients optimally without all kinds of synthetic stuff being pumped in as

well in the form of " nutrients " (or other things if it's a less than high

quality kibble). ;-)

Dawn T

>>> I guess from my point of view, with kids and cats and horses, I have to

>>> be more careful about what my dogs are allowed to do and what they

>>> aren't allowed to do. Years ago we had a dog named Harley and she was a

>>> good dog, but even as a family dog she as always pretty close to the

>>> " I'll take care of myself wild edge. "

>>>

>>> We had ducks and chickens in the basement until they were old enough to

>>> go outside to the coop and one day I put Harley on the back porch and

>>> forgot to close the bottom basement door. She went down and broke their

>>> backs, did not kill them, she broke their backs so they could not get

>>> away and then carried them upstairs and laid them by the door leading

>>> outside. SHe didn't put them by my door as a present, she put them by

>>> her door to deal with later. One by one she brought them up the stairs

>>> crunching as she got there so they'd be unable to move when they got to

>>> the door.

>>>

>>> This is very, very primal behavior and we had a brand new baby, and this

>>> was not her first incident with killing things, so we had her put down.

>>> Maybe fluffy at the local apartment building is different, but I have

>>> dogs that have to be in many different situations with many different

>>> animals. I will give them bones that are raw if I have them, but I don't

>>> think that an all raw diet is a good idea for us. After all, *I* would

>>> not eat an all raw diet either.

[Guest guest]

At 07:37 AM 8/29/2007 -0700, you wrote:

>I guess from my point of view, with kids and cats and horses, I have to be

more careful about what my dogs are allowed to do and what they aren't

allowed to do. Years ago we had a dog named Harley and she was a good dog,

but even as a family dog she as always pretty close to the " I'll take care

of myself wild edge. "

>

>We had ducks and chickens in the basement until they were old enough to go

outside to the coop and one day I put Harley on the back porch and forgot

to close the bottom basement door. She went down and broke their backs, did

not kill them, she broke their backs so they could not get away and then

carried them upstairs and laid them by the door leading outside. SHe didn't

put them by my door as a present, she put them by her door to deal with

later. One by one she brought them up the stairs crunching as she got there

so they'd be unable to move when they got to the door.

I'm not sure how this explains what you think about the taste of blood.

This is another behavior entirely.

This has nothing to do with eating - she didn't eat them.

>

>This is very, very primal behavior and we had a brand new baby, and this

was not her first incident with killing things, so we had her put down.

Maybe fluffy at the local apartment building is different, but I have dogs

that have to be in many different situations with many different animals. I

will give them bones that are raw if I have them, but I don't think that an

all raw diet is a good idea for us. After all, *I* would not eat an all raw

diet either.

>

Humans and dogs are very different.

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm or

http://www.wellwithin1.com/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.wellwithin1.com/vaccineclass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.wellwithin1.com/homeo.htm

NEXT CLASSES start by email September 5 or 6

[Guest guest]

At 07:41 AM 8/29/2007 -0700, you wrote:

>Hey all --

>

>I've been around dogs for a longgggg time. I've had them while living on

cattle feed yards and watched as they circled the sick cows because they

would start munching on them as soon as they went down.

>

>I've had them kill my cats that weren't supposed to be messed with and

bunnies and chickens.

>

>There are dogs that can revert to wild very quickly and I'm not going to

have that kind of a dog around my children. And yes, raw meat and getting

back to the primal urges of the breed can and does happen.

Maybe they are starved for raw meat. See the links that Diane provided.

>

>I'm not going to argue for a raw diet in dogs. If it works for you that's

great. I won't do it for many reasons, and one of those is cost, and one is

that dogs are dogs, not humans, not children. You cannot underestimate them

and you cannot assume you know what will and what won't " turn " a dog. There

are cases of family dogs attacking children all the time.

I would suggest you don't know as you haven't tried it.

You are saying this turns a dog and causes a dog to attack children and you

have provided no proof of anything.

Sorry, but this is just irrational.

Sheri

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm or

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NEXT CLASSES start by email September 5 or 6

[Guest guest]

Hi again. No, she wasn't on a raw diet, but she found her own raw diet

throughout the countryside and in the cattle pens.

Anyway, I can see why it works for some, and I can see some great points to it,

but for us right now it won't work.

Re: Re: OT: API Report on Commercial Pet Food Part 2 of

2

Okay, I get the concern now. I know a lot of people who raw feed who have

chickens, rabbits, livestock of various kinds without any problems. This is

an individual dog behavioral issue, not a result of raw feeding. Was Harley

rawfed and that's how you believe she developed this behavior? Some dogs

are just flat out predatory, and it takes a lot of training to get them not

to be, and some of them are never trustworthy around small animals and/or

livestock. We have small animals in our home, and one of my dogs is

predatory. As a result, I don't trust him within an inch of his life if

cage doors are open and whatnot. The other two? No problem. They'll even

cuddle with the small critters given the opportunity. They've all been

rawfed for 4.5 years. It really can vary from breed to breed and individual

to individual within a breed, not to mention the training factors.

Gotta remember WE as humans have different requirements than our pet

carnivores. The physiology is different enough that they have different

nutritional needs than we do. And raw is the best way for them to get their

nutrients optimally without all kinds of synthetic stuff being pumped in as

well in the form of " nutrients " (or other things if it's a less than high

quality kibble). ;-)

Dawn T

>>> I guess from my point of view, with kids and cats and horses, I have to

>>> be more careful about what my dogs are allowed to do and what they

>>> aren't allowed to do. Years ago we had a dog named Harley and she was a

>>> good dog, but even as a family dog she as always pretty close to the

>>> " I'll take care of myself wild edge. "

>>>

>>> We had ducks and chickens in the basement until they were old enough to

>>> go outside to the coop and one day I put Harley on the back porch and

>>> forgot to close the bottom basement door. She went down and broke their

>>> backs, did not kill them, she broke their backs so they could not get

>>> away and then carried them upstairs and laid them by the door leading

>>> outside. SHe didn't put them by my door as a present, she put them by

>>> her door to deal with later. One by one she brought them up the stairs

>>> crunching as she got there so they'd be unable to move when they got to

>>> the door.

>>>

>>> This is very, very primal behavior and we had a brand new baby, and this

>>> was not her first incident with killing things, so we had her put down.

>>> Maybe fluffy at the local apartment building is different, but I have

>>> dogs that have to be in many different situations with many different

>>> animals. I will give them bones that are raw if I have them, but I don't

>>> think that an all raw diet is a good idea for us. After all, *I* would

>>> not eat an all raw diet either.

[Guest guest]

Uh, I'm not writing a dissertation. I can see dogs on the news who have attacked

children. I have seen my own dogs attack lesser animals and eat them. I have

seen a dog literally incapcitate ducks and chickens in a methodical way in order

to get what she wanted.

I live in the country where dogs that are dropped off by city people revert to

their wild ways and become predators that often have to be shot by ranchers and

rural people. I also see very nice, starving dogs that I have picked up and

re-homed.

I have not tried an all raw diet. Again, for me it would be too expensive, and

too messy and too much of everything. I live 30 miles from town -- so getting

raw meat would be difficult. I'm not trying to change your methods, I'm

explaining why those methods won't work for everyone.

Until you've seen a dog go bad, I guess you can't understand where I'm coming

from either. Gotta run.............

Re: OT: API Report on Commercial Pet Food Part 2 of 2

At 07:41 AM 8/29/2007 -0700, you wrote:

>Hey all --

>

>I've been around dogs for a longgggg time. I've had them while living on

cattle feed yards and watched as they circled the sick cows because they

would start munching on them as soon as they went down.

>

>I've had them kill my cats that weren't supposed to be messed with and

bunnies and chickens.

>

>There are dogs that can revert to wild very quickly and I'm not going to

have that kind of a dog around my children. And yes, raw meat and getting

back to the primal urges of the breed can and does happen.

Maybe they are starved for raw meat. See the links that Diane provided.

>

>I'm not going to argue for a raw diet in dogs. If it works for you that's

great. I won't do it for many reasons, and one of those is cost, and one is

that dogs are dogs, not humans, not children. You cannot underestimate them

and you cannot assume you know what will and what won't " turn " a dog. There

are cases of family dogs attacking children all the time.

I would suggest you don't know as you haven't tried it.

You are saying this turns a dog and causes a dog to attack children and you

have provided no proof of anything.

Sorry, but this is just irrational.

Sheri

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours @tesco.net voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal. com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn. net/~wwithin/ vaccine.htm or

http://www.wellwith in1.com/vaccine. htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.wellwith in1.com/vaccinec lass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn. net/~wwithin/ vaccineclass. htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.wellwith in1.com/homeo. htm

NEXT CLASSES start by email September 5 or 6

[Guest guest]

Clemons <clemonsmary@...> wrote:

Until you've seen a dog go bad, I guess you can't understand where I'm coming

from either. Gotta run.............

* * * * * * * *

I would submit that the rabies vaccine, repeated over and over and over ad

nausaem throughout the life of most dogs is the primary reason some dogs " go

bad " . NOT a raw diet. Feeding a raw species appropriate diet enhances not only

the physical well-being of the animal but his mental and emotional well-being

as well.

I know of what I speak because I live with three generations of raw-fed

unvaccinated (youngest generation) or minimally-vacc'd (oldest generations)

dogs.

The oldest will be 21 years old in December, the three youngest will be two

years old next month..........and nary a significant vet bill in over 6 years.

Just my experience,

Dianne

Ravette-Jodevin Collies

Owner/Co-Founder: " _JstSayNo2Vaccs_

(http://tech./group/jstsayno2vaccs/) " @

Owner/Founder: " _HolisticGroomer_

(http://pets./group/HolisticGroomer/) " @

" It's not enough to rage against the lie...you've got to replace it with the

truth. " - Bono

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

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[Guest guest]

And what link is there between the dogs on the news who have attacked children

and a raw diet? This statement proves absolutely nothing! Your own dogs are

not raw fed so how does seeing your own dogs eat something they have killed have

any relevance to feeding a raw diet? As for the dogs who were dropped off and

revert to killing things on their own - this is simply a matter of survival and

again has nothing to do with the myth that a raw diet will make an animal blood

thirsty. Nothing that you have said - other than you believe that feeding a raw

diet would be too expensive and too much trouble for you - makes any sense

whatsoever. Feeding a raw diet does not make a " dog go bad " . It makes a dog

healthier and probably happier! And on the matter of expenses - it could very

well reduce vet bills too - so it should be looked at from all angles, not only

the cost of the food itself.

Diane

Clemons <clemonsmary@...> wrote:

Uh, I'm not writing a dissertation. I can see dogs on the news who

have attacked children. I have seen my own dogs attack lesser animals and eat

them. I have seen a dog literally incapcitate ducks and chickens in a methodical

way in order to get what she wanted.

I live in the country where dogs that are dropped off by city people revert to

their wild ways and become predators that often have to be shot by ranchers and

rural people. I also see very nice, starving dogs that I have picked up and

re-homed.

I have not tried an all raw diet. Again, for me it would be too expensive, and

too messy and too much of everything. I live 30 miles from town -- so getting

raw meat would be difficult. I'm not trying to change your methods, I'm

explaining why those methods won't work for everyone.

Until you've seen a dog go bad, I guess you can't understand where I'm coming

from either. Gotta run.............

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[Guest guest]

No, she didn't eat them but she planned on doing so. She incapacited them for

later. Seriously folks, you got your point across and I've said mine. I'm not

into feeding raw. Maybe in the future but not now and for the person who said it

was " just too much trouble " you're right. I have three kids, a full time

freelancing job, five dogs, five horses and six cats on 35 acres. Yes, it is too

much trouble.

Re: Re: OT: API Report on Commercial Pet Food Part 2 of

2

At 07:37 AM 8/29/2007 -0700, you wrote:

>I guess from my point of view, with kids and cats and horses, I have to be

more careful about what my dogs are allowed to do and what they aren't

allowed to do. Years ago we had a dog named Harley and she was a good dog,

but even as a family dog she as always pretty close to the " I'll take care

of myself wild edge. "

>

>We had ducks and chickens in the basement until they were old enough to go

outside to the coop and one day I put Harley on the back porch and forgot

to close the bottom basement door. She went down and broke their backs, did

not kill them, she broke their backs so they could not get away and then

carried them upstairs and laid them by the door leading outside. SHe didn't

put them by my door as a present, she put them by her door to deal with

later. One by one she brought them up the stairs crunching as she got there

so they'd be unable to move when they got to the door.

I'm not sure how this explains what you think about the taste of blood.

This is another behavior entirely.

This has nothing to do with eating - she didn't eat them.

>

>This is very, very primal behavior and we had a brand new baby, and this

was not her first incident with killing things, so we had her put down.

Maybe fluffy at the local apartment building is different, but I have dogs

that have to be in many different situations with many different animals. I

will give them bones that are raw if I have them, but I don't think that an

all raw diet is a good idea for us. After all, *I* would not eat an all raw

diet either.

>

Humans and dogs are very different.

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours @tesco.net voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal. com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn. net/~wwithin/ vaccine.htm or

http://www.wellwith in1.com/vaccine. htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.wellwith in1.com/vaccinec lass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn. net/~wwithin/ vaccineclass. htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.wellwith in1.com/homeo. htm

NEXT CLASSES start by email September 5 or 6

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/30/2007 12:49:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,

blechatlb@... writes:

Feeding a dog raw meat in NO way makes them bloodthirsty creatures. I know of

many people who have raw-fed dogs who live harmoniously with their cats,

rabbits, chickens, etc. It is a training issue more than anything. ANY dog has

prey drive, and yes, a kibble fed Shih tzu will go after a rabbit just as easily

as a raw fed German Shepherd will. They need to learn what is acceptable, and

this goes for ANY dog.??

B

* * * * * * * *

I agree with you B.........but I also disagree, to a degree.

It all depends on the breed of the dog and what their instincts are. It is

not necessarily a " training " issue. For instance, I have NEVER had to " train "

my Collies or my Border Collie mix to respect the cats or chickens. By the

same token, I never had to train any of them to effectively manage my neighbor's

small flock of sheep.......they just did it.

What creates " bloodthirsty " qualities in these dogs, ANY dogs, is the RABIES

VACCINE. This is why every blessed one of us, who truly care about the

well-being of our dogs, need to actively support The Rabies Challenge Fund

(_http://rabieschallengefund.org/_ (http://rabieschallengefund.org/) ). This

study

will be our first step in challenging the archaic rabies laws. Once we do that

we will have an audience who MAY be receptive to understanding the TRUTH behind

the rise in dog bites in this country.

You simply CANNOT load an animal up with elements of a neurological based

disease and not expect him to present WITH symptoms of that disease. One of

these days even the allopaths will have to admit this FACT!!!!!

(apologies in advance for being too passionate........I can't help

myself......I've lost too many four-footed-wonders to this plague)

Dianne

Ravette-Jodevin Collies

Owner/Co-Founder: " _JstSayNo2Vaccs_

(http://tech./group/jstsayno2vaccs/) " @

Owner/Founder: " _HolisticGroomer_

(http://pets./group/HolisticGroomer/) " @

" It's not enough to rage against the lie...you've got to replace it with the

truth. " - Bono

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Guest guest]

Oh, my, ,

Who has brainwashed you, the pet food industry or the veterinary industry? First

of all, there is no argument...Dogs ARE carnivores. The sonian has actually

changed the classification of dogs to Canis lupus (same as wolf) from Canis

familiaris. It has been shown that there is no detectable difference in the

digestive tract of a dog or a wolf. The DNA difference between a dog and a wolf

?is .002% --- even a coyote has 4% difference in DNA from a wolf! ?The fact that

most people feed their dogs a dry, grain filled, cooked kibble does not mean

that dogs have evolved to be omnivorous or vegetarian. Kibble is sprayed with

rancid fat after it is cooked...you would rather have your dog lick your child

after eating that? Feeding a dog raw meat in NO way makes them bloodthirsty

creatures. I know of many people who have raw-fed dogs who live harmoniously

with their cats, rabbits, chickens, etc. It is a training issue more than

anything. ANY dog has prey drive, and yes, a kibble fed Shih tzu will go after a

rabbit just as easily as a raw fed German Shepherd will. They need to learn what

is acceptable, and this goes for ANY dog.??

B

________________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

**After all, *I* would not eat an all raw diet either.**

------------------

But ...you are not a carnivore...your dog is! And I cannot understand

how you can justify putting a dog to sleep for killing?ducks? Again -a training

issue! Why could you not have placed the dog?in another home instead??Killing

ducks doe snot make a dog a bloodthirsty mean eater...it is their instinct, and

it is our job to?train them and keep the other animals safe from other pets who

could injure them.

B??

________________________________________________________________________

Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -

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[Guest guest]

At 10:56 AM 8/29/2007 -0700, you wrote:

>Uh, I'm not writing a dissertation. I can see dogs on the news who have

attacked children. I have seen my own dogs attack lesser animals and eat

them. I have seen a dog literally incapcitate ducks and chickens in a

methodical way in order to get what she wanted.

>

>I live in the country where dogs that are dropped off by city people

revert to their wild ways and become predators that often have to be shot

by ranchers and rural people. I also see very nice, starving dogs that I

have picked up and re-homed.

>

>I have not tried an all raw diet. Again, for me it would be too expensive,

and too messy and too much of everything. I live 30 miles from town -- so

getting raw meat would be difficult. I'm not trying to change your methods,

I'm explaining why those methods won't work for everyone.

>

>Until you've seen a dog go bad, I guess you can't understand where I'm

coming from either. Gotta run.............

>

,

With all due respect, your logic is very flawed.

None of what you have said proves it is due to a raw food diet.

Maybe it is because they do NOT have raw food.

Maybe it is because of multiple vaccinations.

But you have not proven that raw food diets are to blame.

Sheri

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Hahnemannian Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

earthmysteriestours@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm or

http://www.wellwithin1.com/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.wellwithin1.com/vaccineclass.htm

Reality of the Diseases & Treatment -

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.wellwithin1.com/homeo.htm

NEXT CLASSES start by email September 5 or 6