Re: Vitamin A and ATP levels

[Guest guest]

Hi Corona

What form of vitamin A is recommended?

Steve

On Mar 26, 2010, at 5:01 AM, corona_184 wrote:

> Scientists Identify Vitamin A Role in Energy Production

>

> March 2010

>

> Vitamin A may play a critical role in the production of energy in

> our cells, says an international team of researchers who claim to

> have solved the question of why vitamin A deficiency causes so many

> diseases.

>

> According to findings published in the FASEB Journal, vitamin A

> (retinol) may play a role in the synthesis of ATP in mitochondria—

> the power plant of the cells—and when vitamin A is deficient the

> production of energy is reduced by 30%.

>

> Researchers led by Ulrich Hammerling from the Institute for Cancer

> Research, New York, found that wformat hen vitamin A supplies are

> adequate, the preferred energy sources are glycolysis and pyruvate

> production. On the other hand, when the vitamin is scarce the body

> turns to fat reserves, preparing the organism to win energy from fat

> oxidation.

>

> However, when cells are deprived of retinol, the synthesis of ATP

> decreases as does respiration. But such declines were reversed when

> retinol levels were restored, and no conversion to other retinoids

> was observed, showing the effect was related purely to retinol.

>

> " Bioenergetics is fundamental to all cells, " wrote the researchers.

> " In view of this tenet, it is puzzling why metabolic regulation by

> the pathway described in this report depends on retinol that

> vertebrates cannot synthesize de novo (anew).

>

> " In limiting vitamin A to nutritional sources, there must be an

> evolutionary advantage of such import as to override the

> physiological needs for vitamin A in vision and retinoic acid-

> dependent transcription.

>

> " The answer may lie in the scenario that finite amounts of vitamin A

> are subject to depletion during periods of severe starvation when an

> organism is forced to conserve energy. Our observation that in the

> absence of vitamin A energy generation by respiration adapts

> downwards appears relevant in this context, " added the researchers.

>

> Data from vitamin A-deficient mice has previously indicated that

> triglycerides accumulate in the liver and may signify a switch to

> fat for energy generation, said the researchers, in order to offset

> the limited use of glycolysis and pyruvate production.

>

> " It is also predictable that chronic deviations of vitamin A

> transport will lead to metabolic disease, " Hammerling and his co-

> workers added.

>

> FASEB Journal 24(2):627-626, 2010

>

>

>

Ideal People are universal and not Clannish,Small Minded People are

Clannish

Confucius 13:23

[Guest guest]

> Scientists Identify Vitamin A Role in Energy Production

> March 2010

>

> Vitamin A may play a critical role in the production of

> energy in our cells, says an international team of researchers

> who claim to have solved the question of why vitamin

> A deficiency causes so many diseases.

>

> According to findings published in the FASEB Journal,

> vitamin A (retinol) may play a role in the synthesis of ATP in

> mitochondria—the power plant of the cells—and when vitamin

> A is deficient the production of energy is reduced by 30%.

I can vouch for this on an experiential basis of nearly 60 yrs.

I've always had high Vit A needs, and am one of those Hashi who

don't convert betacarotene very well, but need also betacarotene

for the antioxidant function, also lifelong mito problems.

I keep several kinds of A around for different purposes:

- Vit A derived from fish oil in small gelcaps;

- betacarotene;

- cod liver oil (has A and D);

- " dry " Vit A;

- mycellized A liquid (Metagenics).

Carol W.

willis_protocols

[Guest guest]

How do you know this? Have you been tested? Do you have an orange hue to your

face?

I was tested years ago and my retinol levels were at the 38% level.

The carotenoids, precursors of Vit A, need bile and fat in the intestines for

absorption and each have a very specific antioxidant spectrum. My

alpha-carotene levels were low too, infact all my antioxidants were in poor

values

I think I may have corrected this because I no longer have an orange hue to my

face like I did years ago, I took various types of cod liver oil and fish oils

and this may have helped.

Nat

> I can vouch for this on an experiential basis of nearly 60 yrs.

> I've always had high Vit A needs, and am one of those Hashi who

> don't convert betacarotene very well, but need also betacarotene

> for the antioxidant function, also lifelong mito problems.

>

> I keep several kinds of A around for different purposes:

>

> - Vit A derived from fish oil in small gelcaps;

> - betacarotene;

> - cod liver oil (has A and D);

> - " dry " Vit A;

> - mycellized A liquid (Metagenics).

>

> Carol W.

> willis_protocols

>

[Guest guest]

On 2010-03-26, cbwillis9 <cbwillis9@...> wrote:

> I keep several kinds of A around for different purposes:

>

> - Vit A derived from fish oil in small gelcaps;

> - betacarotene;

> - cod liver oil (has A and D);

> - " dry " Vit A;

> - mycellized A liquid (Metagenics).

Can you tell us more?

[Guest guest]

" natellite " <natellite@...> wrote:

>

> How do you know this? Have you been tested?

> Do you have an orange hue to your face?

I know it based on a wide variety of interrelated experiences

over my lifetime. That shouldnt mean anything to anyone else

though, the point here is just to consider the idea vs. not.

No testing but DNA damage from oxidative stress, long history

of atopic and autoimmune tendencies, but it got me thinking

whether Hashi hypoT need more than one kind of Vit A for

different purposes.

I've never had an orange hue to my face etc.

> I was tested years ago and my retinol levels were at the

> 38% level. The carotenoids, precursors of Vit A, need bile

> and fat in the intestines for absorption and each have a very

> specific antioxidant spectrum. My alpha-carotene levels were

> low too, infact all my antioxidants were in poor values

Was this an antioxidants test, a carotenoids test, serum or ??

thru an MD or ??

What prompted your getting this test?

> I think I may have corrected this because I no longer have

> an orange hue to my face like I did years ago, I took various

> types of cod liver oil and fish oils and this may have helped.

>

> Nat

OK, good.

Carol W.

[cbwillis:]

> > I can vouch for this on an experiential basis of nearly 60 yrs.

> > I've always had high Vit A needs, and am one of those Hashi who

> > don't convert betacarotene very well, but need also betacarotene

> > for the antioxidant function, also lifelong mito problems.

> >

> > I keep several kinds of A around for different purposes:

> >

> > - Vit A derived from fish oil in small gelcaps;

> > - betacarotene;

> > - cod liver oil (has A and D);

> > - " dry " Vit A;

> > - mycellized A liquid (Metagenics).

> >

> > Carol W.

> > willis_protocols

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Wales <samologist@...> wrote:

> Can you tell us more?

> On 2010-03-26, cbwillis9 <cbwillis9@...> wrote:

> > I keep several kinds of A around for different purposes:

> >

> > - Vit A derived from fish oil in small gelcaps;

Suited to Hashi-hypoT retinol needs. $4 at the drugstore or

grocery store, just about any brnad will do. Increments of

5000 or 8000 iu, according to your own needs.

Caution in pregnancy, when Vit A is limited to 3000-5000 iu.

I currently use 5000-8000 iu daily.

> > - betacarotene;

Powerful antioxidant. Betacarotene is what's in most multi-vits.

Most people will convert this to Vit A, but much less so in

Hashi-hypoT. I do almost nothing with betacarotene in regard

to conversion. Typical increments of 25,000 iu. Regardless of good

fat digestion capability, I speculate that you end up with less

than 25,000 iu retinol after conversion (my guess would be

something close to 10,000 iu in retinol Vit A), this is just

my sense of it, have not read any research (but people differ

so widely in their conversion abilities, not sure how they

would take that into account in research). There may even be a

gene(s) that affects ability to convert.

I currently use 25,000-50,000 iu daily, for the antioxidant

effects.

> > - cod liver oil (has A and D);

Nowadays cod liver oil is available in large gelcaps, with

typically 1250 iu Vit A, and 135 iu Vit D. - about 9x more

Vit A than D. This natural ratio tends to work well for me

anyhow with respect to the A and D both derived from fish oils,

and I've thought that cod liver oil is a good natural model for

A:D whether or not you use cod liver oil as your favored

source of Vits A and D. This is the opposite to what most

people today do - they are on the high Vit D bandwagon and take

relatively little A (and the A they take may not suit all of their

varied A needs). Find your own levels of A and D at any given

time.

Rancidity of oil can be an issue with cod liver oil,

so product should be a mover on the store shelf. Seek very fresh,

small bottles, and use it quickly. I am using less cod liver

oil and plain fish oil supps than I did in the last 2 yrs

due to having many age spots show up on hands and arms

during that timeframe, possibly due to oil randicity issues

despite best efforts. I try to eat fish several

times a week for omega 3s, keeping in view the mercury load.

I'm currently not using cod liver oil.

> > - " dry " Vit A;

a water soluable A, e.g. Twinlabs or Vitamin Shoppe.

Could be especially useful if you have fat digestion

problems including celiac or gluten sensitivity, or just

as an alternate or complement to the fish oil derived form of A.

Increments of 10,000 iu. Sometimes comes with dry form of Vit D

as an A + D product.

I currently use 10,000 iu dry A, 2-3x a week, with the others

above.

> > - mycellized A liquid (Metagenics).

A very concentrated water soluable A. Liquid in a dropper

bottle, very intense taste (challenge yourself and

get your tolerances up!). For acute or short-term

use where you might need very absorbable high dose A

(e.g. 50,000 iu). Metagenics is intended to be sold

thru health professionals for their treatment purposes.

I have this " around " and available.

Comment:

My early thinking about Vit A followed Adele in the

1960s, and she spoke of up to 50,000 iu. At that time,

it seemed to me that 25,000 iu was reasonable, and I used

that off and on in the fish oil derived form. Somewhere around

1980 or so, the vit A in multi's I'd taken ever since I

could remember (e.g. KAL Soft Multiple) began to be changed from

fish oil derived A to betacarotene, and I noticed a big

difference. So began my Vit A forms comparisons.

There is med literature that cautions against

use of Vit A in amounts of more than 3000-5000 iu due to it

being hard on the bones. I haven't found that to be the

case personally, especially when taking a modest amount of

Vit D also (e.g. 1000 iu Vit D) with other bone nutrients

(see my article " dexa " for more info, at url below/end).

There are also caveats on the higher amounts during pregnancy.

So people need to be aware, and find their own levels for their

own circumstances and needs.

HTH,

Carol W.

willis_protocols

Articles in Files.

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 06:17:24 -0000, " cbwillis9 "

<cbwillis9@...> wrote:

>> > - betacarotene;

>

>Powerful antioxidant. Betacarotene is what's in most multi-vits.

>Most people will convert this to Vit A, but much less so in

>Hashi-hypoT. I do almost nothing with betacarotene in regard

>to conversion. Typical increments of 25,000 iu. Regardless of good

>fat digestion capability, I speculate that you end up with less

>than 25,000 iu retinol after conversion (my guess would be

>something close to 10,000 iu in retinol Vit A), this is just

>my sense of it, have not read any research (but people differ

>so widely in their conversion abilities, not sure how they

>would take that into account in research). There may even be a

>gene(s) that affects ability to convert.

>

>I currently use 25,000-50,000 iu daily, for the antioxidant

>effects.

>

I have read that ALL studies of beta-carotene found that people

taking beta-carotene had higher death rates than people not taking

it. Someone in Sci.med (I think it was B. )

recommended that no one should take beta-carotene and that

mixed-carotenes were probably safer.

--

I don't understand why they make gourmet cat foods. I have

known many cats in my life and none of them were gourmets.

They were all gourmands!

[Guest guest]

> Was this an antioxidants test, a carotenoids test, serum or ??

> thru an MD or ??

Yes my CFS doctor mentioned a panel of tests and I decided to have these done.

It was serum for the antioxidant test. All were very low range except Coenzyme

Q-10 which was in the upper mid range.

Also had an Oxidative Stress test and I was in very high oxidative stress state.

Best tests I ever did because taking various " custom " supplements at the time

helped certain symptoms.

Nat

[Guest guest]

Prince <neutrino1@...> wrote:

> I have read that ALL studies of beta-carotene found that people

> taking beta-carotene had higher death rates than people not taking

> it. Someone in Sci.med (I think it was B. )

> recommended that no one should take beta-carotene and that

> mixed-carotenes were probably safer.

More on betacarotene:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta-Carotene

Looks like my felt-sense estimate of betacarotene strength

compared to retinol was about right. This url notes

betacarotent is 1/3 the strength of retinol per iu.

I've read widely for decades now,

and have not encountered the view, nor had the sense,

that people taking betacarotene had higher death rates.

If that is true at all, then I suspect it's because there

are a lot of hypoT people out there who do almost nothing

with betacarotene towards making retinol, so are

retinol-deficient and not betacarotene-overdosed.

Also, I assume that we get a wide variety of carotenes in

colorful vegetables we need to be eating daily,

though we know that many people today don't eat vegetables. :-((

So if we combine a hypoT person who does almost nothing

with betacarotene, depends on betacarotene exclusively for

retinol, and doesn't also eat a wide variety of colorful

vegetables for other/mixed carotenes as antioxidants,

then we have a sad situation indeed.

Carol W.

willis_protocols

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 20:19:27 -0000, you wrote:

>I've read widely for decades now,

>and have not encountered the view, nor had the sense,

>that people taking betacarotene had higher death rates.

>If that is true at all, then I suspect it's because there

>are a lot of hypoT people out there who do almost nothing

>with betacarotene towards making retinol, so are

>retinol-deficient and not betacarotene-overdosed.

I have not yet found the messages I remembered but you might want to

look at these:

>http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.nutrition/browse_thread/thread/1c6ce5421\

e3a866d/29304908b3e49565?hl=en & q=beta-carotene+group:sci.med*#29304908b3e49565

--

I don't understand why they make gourmet cat foods. I have

known many cats in my life and none of them were gourmets.

They were all gourmands!

[Guest guest]

Carol,

many thanks for posting your Vitamin A thoughts/experiences.

The published evidence on the efficacy of Vitamin D is overwhelming. You

basically want your level to be as high as possible (within reason) to

lower your risk of all kinds of diseases. See this pdf disease incidence

prevention table

<http://www.grassrootshealth.net/media/download/disease_incidence_prev_c\

hart_101608.pdf> for example.

The evidence on Vitamin A is less than convincing. Why that is I don't

know.

See here for example:

http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-oil-supplemen\

ts/

<http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/snake-oil-suppleme\

nts/>

Vitamin D is right at the top of the list (based on published studies)

and Vitamin A right at the bottom.

There is even evidence that supplementing Vitamin A may be undoing the

good of vitamin D:

Vitamin A interferes with Vitamin D

<http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/03/16/warning-n\

ew-proof-confirms-if-you-take-this-supplement-vitamin-d-will-not-work-as\

-well.aspx>

garcia.

> > > I keep several kinds of A around for different purposes:

> > >

> > > - Vit A derived from fish oil in small gelcaps;

>

>

> Suited to Hashi-hypoT retinol needs. $4 at the drugstore or

> grocery store, just about any brnad will do. Increments of

> 5000 or 8000 iu, according to your own needs.

> Caution in pregnancy, when Vit A is limited to 3000-5000 iu.

>

> I currently use 5000-8000 iu daily.

>

>

> > > - betacarotene;

>

> Powerful antioxidant. Betacarotene is what's in most multi-vits.

> Most people will convert this to Vit A, but much less so in

> Hashi-hypoT. I do almost nothing with betacarotene in regard

> to conversion. Typical increments of 25,000 iu. Regardless of good

> fat digestion capability, I speculate that you end up with less

> than 25,000 iu retinol after conversion (my guess would be

> something close to 10,000 iu in retinol Vit A), this is just

> my sense of it, have not read any research (but people differ

> so widely in their conversion abilities, not sure how they

> would take that into account in research). There may even be a

> gene(s) that affects ability to convert.

>

> I currently use 25,000-50,000 iu daily, for the antioxidant

> effects.

>

>

> > > - cod liver oil (has A and D);

>

> Nowadays cod liver oil is available in large gelcaps, with

> typically 1250 iu Vit A, and 135 iu Vit D. - about 9x more

> Vit A than D. This natural ratio tends to work well for me

> anyhow with respect to the A and D both derived from fish oils,

> and I've thought that cod liver oil is a good natural model for

> A:D whether or not you use cod liver oil as your favored

> source of Vits A and D. This is the opposite to what most

> people today do - they are on the high Vit D bandwagon and take

> relatively little A (and the A they take may not suit all of their

> varied A needs). Find your own levels of A and D at any given

> time.

>

> Rancidity of oil can be an issue with cod liver oil,

> so product should be a mover on the store shelf. Seek very fresh,

> small bottles, and use it quickly. I am using less cod liver

> oil and plain fish oil supps than I did in the last 2 yrs

> due to having many age spots show up on hands and arms

> during that timeframe, possibly due to oil randicity issues

> despite best efforts. I try to eat fish several

> times a week for omega 3s, keeping in view the mercury load.

>

> I'm currently not using cod liver oil.

>

>

> > > - " dry " Vit A;

>

> a water soluable A, e.g. Twinlabs or Vitamin Shoppe.

>

> Could be especially useful if you have fat digestion

> problems including celiac or gluten sensitivity, or just

> as an alternate or complement to the fish oil derived form of A.

> Increments of 10,000 iu. Sometimes comes with dry form of Vit D

> as an A + D product.

>

> I currently use 10,000 iu dry A, 2-3x a week, with the others

> above.

>

>

> > > - mycellized A liquid (Metagenics).

>

> A very concentrated water soluable A. Liquid in a dropper

> bottle, very intense taste (challenge yourself and

> get your tolerances up!). For acute or short-term

> use where you might need very absorbable high dose A

> (e.g. 50,000 iu). Metagenics is intended to be sold

> thru health professionals for their treatment purposes.

>

>

> I have this " around " and available.

>

>

> Comment:

> My early thinking about Vit A followed Adele in the

> 1960s, and she spoke of up to 50,000 iu. At that time,

> it seemed to me that 25,000 iu was reasonable, and I used

> that off and on in the fish oil derived form. Somewhere around

> 1980 or so, the vit A in multi's I'd taken ever since I

> could remember (e.g. KAL Soft Multiple) began to be changed from

> fish oil derived A to betacarotene, and I noticed a big

> difference. So began my Vit A forms comparisons.

>

> There is med literature that cautions against

> use of Vit A in amounts of more than 3000-5000 iu due to it

> being hard on the bones. I haven't found that to be the

> case personally, especially when taking a modest amount of

> Vit D also (e.g. 1000 iu Vit D) with other bone nutrients

> (see my article " dexa " for more info, at url below/end).

> There are also caveats on the higher amounts during pregnancy.

> So people need to be aware, and find their own levels for their

> own circumstances and needs.

>

> HTH,

> Carol W.

> willis_protocols

> Articles in Files.

>

[Guest guest]

" " <jgarcia3788@...> wrote:

> The published evidence on the efficacy of Vitamin D is

> overwhelming....

All that is useful as consideration, but it comes

down to what works best for the person in actual practice,

and, in retrospect, we might find out why that is - why

something worked or didn't work for us.

When my own experience for myself flies in the face of

what happens to be out there as published research, commonly

accepted conclusions, or top-down deductions based on diagrams and

pathways etc, then I tend to defer to my

own experience. And I nearly always find out why something

worked or didn't work for me in retrospect, even though that

missing piece of information may take years and sometimes

decades to show up. It was a lot slower before internet.

Everyone needs to have their own experience.

The caveat here is: to not keep trying to force-fit your

own experience into others' great sounding ideas,

like trying to fit a size 10 foot into a size 8 shoe,

because it's so cute and looks like it " should " fit you.

You can try all day, but it still won't work in the long run.

And we may never find out why someone has such big feet on their

frame and needs a larger shoe than you'd ever think they'd need.

But they do need something different from what others might tend

to think, and there's no getting around it. Clearly we don't

begrudge them bailing out of size 8's if they're

in pain and instinctively know these shoes won't work for them.

Some supplements and amounts are like that.

On Vit D, there's still a lot we don't know. Also about how

individual Vit D receptor genetics etc may influence outcomes of

high supplementation. We don't know how high amounts 5000-10000

iu Vit D are going to affect the whole system over many years.

I'm suspecting a rash of kidney stone cases to occur after about

5-7 yrs in those taking high amounts. My guess is up to 25%

of persons taking these amounts for 5-7 yrs may end up with kidney

stones, which is higher than would be the case otherwise. Most

stones are excruciatingly painful but pass on their own, with the

help of strong painkillers like Vicodin from the Dr.

Others need lithotripsy to break up stones so they'll pass,

and that's about a $20K procedure, or was about 10 yrs ago.

The stats on these cases will be the only thing that will

turn the present tide back to more moderate levels.

We currently have a pendulum shift.

It was only within the last 10 yrs that Vit D recs were still

at the very low 400 iu, then went to 2000 and then quickly to

5000-10,000 iu. One extreme to the other, with almost no middle

ground (why?). ... There may also be negative feedback loops that

prevent high amts of Vit D supp or shots from being any more

effective than more modest levels.

I have massive hair loss if I take over 1500 iu Vit D

supps, and it quits 3 weeks later after stopping that

(D is a fat soluable vit), but that's RARE

and it may have something to do with Vit D receptor genetics

and/or IL-6 genetics, and/or atopic and autoimmune tendencies

(speculative on my part). So have your own experience.

I've taken Vit A + very modest amounts of D, at the same time,

since I was a child, and my dexa bone density test at age 57

showed the bones of a 20 yr old. Go figure.

(See my " dexa " article for more info.)

Carol W.

willis_protocols

Articles in Files.

[Guest guest]

[cbwillis:]

> >I've read widely for decades now,

> >and have not encountered the view, nor had the sense,

> >that people taking betacarotene had higher death rates.

> >If that is true at all, then I suspect it's because there

> >are a lot of hypoT people out there who do almost nothing

> >with betacarotene towards making retinol, so are

> >retinol-deficient and not betacarotene-overdosed.

Prince <neutrino1@...> wrote:

>

>http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.nutrition/browse_thread/thread/1c6ce5421\

e3a866d/29304908b3e49565?hl=en & q=beta-carotene+group:sci.med*#29304908b3e49565

Comment:

By all means, eat lots of colorful vegetables for a wide

variety of carotenes.

Some persons will need more by way of supps. Have your own

experience on this.

Carol W.