Guest guest Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 thanks laura, i hope your day is doing great im at work now typeing with 1 hand phone in other Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2006 Report Share Posted May 15, 2006 I heard that too ,, and Im lucky, I NEVER liked pepper anyway,, lollauramgunter <lauramgunter@...> wrote: Tim, you are right pepper is very hard on a liver, whether diseased or not.I am glad everyone seems a little more calm today.Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Its interesting that Black Pepper inhibits the same two primary CYP-450 enzymes that Norvir does. Of course you would need to determine both the correct dose, and many other pharmacokinetic properties of the molecules involved to see if it provides a suitable replacment. A possible drug candidate. The interesting part is that it would not elevate lipid levels as Norvir does. Replacing Norvir with Black Pepper is not something I would do though - and I would do many things. > > > I would like to hear some more feedback on replacing> > Norvir with > > Bioperine.> > > > thanks,> > > > > > > > > > > > Welcome to our group!> > If you received this email from someone who> > forwarded it to you and would like to join this> > group, send a blank email to> > -subscribe and you will get> > an email with instructions to follow. You can chose> > to receive single emails or a daily digest> > (collection of emails). You can post pictures,> > images, attach files and search by keyword old> > postings in the group.> > > > For those of you who are members already and want to> > switch from single emails to digest or vice versa,> > visit www., click on , then> > on "edit my membership" and go down to your> > selection. The list administrator does not process> > any requests, so this is a do-it-yourself easy> > process ! > > Thanks for joining. You will learn and share a lot> > in this group!> > > > NOTE: I moderate, approve or disapprove emails> > before they are posted. Please follow the guidelines> > shown in the homepage. I will not allow rudeness,> > sexually explicit material, attacks, and anyone who> > does not follow the rules. If you are not OK with> > this, please do not join the group. > > > > Forward this email to anyone who may benefit from> > this information! Thanks!> > In Health,> > > > Vergel (PoWeRTX@...)> > List Founder and Moderator> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Its interesting that Black Pepper inhibits the same two primary CYP-450 enzymes that Norvir does. Of course you would need to determine both the correct dose, and many other pharmacokinetic properties of the molecules involved to see if it provides a suitable replacment. A possible drug candidate. The interesting part is that it would not elevate lipid levels as Norvir does. Replacing Norvir with Black Pepper is not something I would do though - and I would do many things. > > > I would like to hear some more feedback on replacing> > Norvir with > > Bioperine.> > > > thanks,> > > > > > > > > > > > Welcome to our group!> > If you received this email from someone who> > forwarded it to you and would like to join this> > group, send a blank email to> > -subscribe and you will get> > an email with instructions to follow. You can chose> > to receive single emails or a daily digest> > (collection of emails). You can post pictures,> > images, attach files and search by keyword old> > postings in the group.> > > > For those of you who are members already and want to> > switch from single emails to digest or vice versa,> > visit www., click on , then> > on "edit my membership" and go down to your> > selection. The list administrator does not process> > any requests, so this is a do-it-yourself easy> > process ! > > Thanks for joining. You will learn and share a lot> > in this group!> > > > NOTE: I moderate, approve or disapprove emails> > before they are posted. Please follow the guidelines> > shown in the homepage. I will not allow rudeness,> > sexually explicit material, attacks, and anyone who> > does not follow the rules. If you are not OK with> > this, please do not join the group. > > > > Forward this email to anyone who may benefit from> > this information! Thanks!> > In Health,> > > > Vergel (PoWeRTX@...)> > List Founder and Moderator> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Guys, My understanding was that black pepper passsed through one's system with being digested at all. From this bioperene string, I'm hearing that this is wrong information? Larry -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Norm Stuart" <ns02@...> Its interesting that Black Pepper inhibits the same two primary CYP-450 enzymes that Norvir does. Of course you would need to determine both the correct dose, and many other pharmacokinetic properties of the molecules involved to see if it provides a suitable replacment. A possible drug candidate. The interesting part is that it would not elevate lipid levels as Norvir does. Replacing Norvir with Black Pepper is not something I would do though - and I would do many things. > > > I would like to hear some more feedback on replacing> > Norvir with > > Bioperine.> > > > thanks,> > > > > > > > > > > > Welcome to our group!> > If you received this email from someone who> > forwarded it to you and would like to join this> > group, send a blank email to> > -subscribe and you will get> > an email with instructions to follow. You can chose> > to receive single emails or a daily digest> > (collection of emails). You can post pictures,&g t; > images, attach files and search by keyword old> > postings in the group.> > > > For those of you who are members already and want to> > switch from single emails to digest or vice versa,> > visit www., click on , then> > on "edit my membership" and go down to your> > selection. The list administrator does not process> > any requests, so this is a do-it-yourself easy> > process ! > > Thanks for joining. You will learn and share a lot> > in this group!> > > > NOTE: I moderate, approve or disapprove emails> > before they are posted. Please follow the guidelines> > shown in the homepage. I will not allow rudeness,> > sexually explicit material, attacks, and anyone who> > does not follow the rules. If you are not OK with> > this, please do not join the group. > > ; > > Forward this email to anyone who may benefit from> > this information! Thanks!> > In Health,> > > > Vergel (PoWeRTX@...)> > List Founder and Moderator> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Guys, My understanding was that black pepper passsed through one's system with being digested at all. From this bioperene string, I'm hearing that this is wrong information? Larry -------------- Original message -------------- From: "Norm Stuart" <ns02@...> Its interesting that Black Pepper inhibits the same two primary CYP-450 enzymes that Norvir does. Of course you would need to determine both the correct dose, and many other pharmacokinetic properties of the molecules involved to see if it provides a suitable replacment. A possible drug candidate. The interesting part is that it would not elevate lipid levels as Norvir does. Replacing Norvir with Black Pepper is not something I would do though - and I would do many things. > > > I would like to hear some more feedback on replacing> > Norvir with > > Bioperine.> > > > thanks,> > > > > > > > > > > > Welcome to our group!> > If you received this email from someone who> > forwarded it to you and would like to join this> > group, send a blank email to> > -subscribe and you will get> > an email with instructions to follow. You can chose> > to receive single emails or a daily digest> > (collection of emails). You can post pictures,&g t; > images, attach files and search by keyword old> > postings in the group.> > > > For those of you who are members already and want to> > switch from single emails to digest or vice versa,> > visit www., click on , then> > on "edit my membership" and go down to your> > selection. The list administrator does not process> > any requests, so this is a do-it-yourself easy> > process ! > > Thanks for joining. You will learn and share a lot> > in this group!> > > > NOTE: I moderate, approve or disapprove emails> > before they are posted. Please follow the guidelines> > shown in the homepage. I will not allow rudeness,> > sexually explicit material, attacks, and anyone who> > does not follow the rules. If you are not OK with> > this, please do not join the group. > > ; > > Forward this email to anyone who may benefit from> > this information! Thanks!> > In Health,> > > > Vergel (PoWeRTX@...)> > List Founder and Moderator> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 The piper nigrum vine and related plants, like tea leaves, is made mostly of cellulose and thus does not provide any substantial caloric food for humans or animals other than ruminants, like cattle. However, like tea leaves, the extract of the plant will contain the essential molecules which inhibit CYP liver enzymes. An example: http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/2/2/223 > > > > > I would like to hear some more feedback on replacing> > > Norvir with > > > Bioperine.> > > > > > thanks,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Welcome to our group!> > > If you received this email from someone who> > > forwarded it to you and would like to join this> > > group, send a blank email to> > > -subscribe and you will get> > > an email with instructions to follow. You can chose> > > to receive single emails or a daily digest> > > (collection of emails). You can post pictures,> > > images, attach files and search by keyword old> > > postings in the group.> > > > > > For those of you who are members already and want to> > > switch from single emails to digest or vice versa,> > > visit www., click on , then> > > on "edit my membership" and go down to your> > > selection. The list administrator does not process> > > any requests, so this is a do-it-yourself easy> > > process ! > > > Thanks for joining. You will learn and share a lot> > > in this group!> > > > > > NOTE: I moderate, approve or disapprove emails> > > before they are posted. Please follow the guidelines> > > shown in the homepage. I will not allow rudeness,> > > sexually explicit material, attacks, and anyone who> > > does not follow the rules. If you are not OK with> > > this, please do not join the group. > > > > > > Forward this email to anyone who may benefit from> > > this information! Thanks!> > > In Health,> > > > > > Vergel (PoWeRTX@)> > > List Founder and Moderator> > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 The piper nigrum vine and related plants, like tea leaves, is made mostly of cellulose and thus does not provide any substantial caloric food for humans or animals other than ruminants, like cattle. However, like tea leaves, the extract of the plant will contain the essential molecules which inhibit CYP liver enzymes. An example: http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/2/2/223 > > > > > I would like to hear some more feedback on replacing> > > Norvir with > > > Bioperine.> > > > > > thanks,> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Welcome to our group!> > > If you received this email from someone who> > > forwarded it to you and would like to join this> > > group, send a blank email to> > > -subscribe and you will get> > > an email with instructions to follow. You can chose> > > to receive single emails or a daily digest> > > (collection of emails). You can post pictures,> > > images, attach files and search by keyword old> > > postings in the group.> > > > > > For those of you who are members already and want to> > > switch from single emails to digest or vice versa,> > > visit www., click on , then> > > on "edit my membership" and go down to your> > > selection. The list administrator does not process> > > any requests, so this is a do-it-yourself easy> > > process ! > > > Thanks for joining. You will learn and share a lot> > > in this group!> > > > > > NOTE: I moderate, approve or disapprove emails> > > before they are posted. Please follow the guidelines> > > shown in the homepage. I will not allow rudeness,> > > sexually explicit material, attacks, and anyone who> > > does not follow the rules. If you are not OK with> > > this, please do not join the group. > > > > > > Forward this email to anyone who may benefit from> > > this information! Thanks!> > > In Health,> > > > > > Vergel (PoWeRTX@)> > > List Founder and Moderator> > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 Sounds like you possibly heard on of those " wife's tales " Just look at the research already done on Bioperines effects at their website: http://bioperine.com . Bioperine elevated various nutrient levels that were tested; Vit C, beta-carotene, selenium, to name a few. So there is evidence as to this " black pepper's " ability to do some boosting. And for $5.99/bottle (Natutre's Plus) is very inexpensive. Robb > > > > > I would like to hear some more feedback on replacing > > > Norvir with > > > Bioperine. > > > > > > thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Welcome to our group! > > > If you received this email from someone who > > > forwarded it to you and would like to join this > > > group, send a blank email to > > > -subscribe and you will get > > > an email with instructions to follow. You can chose > > > to receive single emails or a daily digest > > > (collection of emails). You can post pictures, > > > images, attach files and search by keyword old > > > postings in the group. > > > > > > For those of you who are members already and want to > > > switch from single emails to digest or vice versa, > > > visit www., click on , then > > > on " edit my membership " and go down to your > > > selection. The list administrator does not process > > > any requests, so this is a do-it-yourself easy > > > process ! > > > Thanks for joining. You will learn and share a lot > > > in this group! > > > > > > NOTE: I moderate, approve or disapprove emails > > > before they are posted. Please follow the guidelines > > > shown in the homepage. I will not allow rudeness, > > > sexually explicit material, attacks, and anyone who > > > does not follow the rules. If you are not OK with > > > this, please do not join the group. > > > > > > Forward this email to anyone who may benefit from > > > this information! Thanks! > > > In Health, > > > > > > Vergel (PoWeRTX@) > > > List Founder and Moderator > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 By the way, black pepper will also enhance the action of CoQ10. So, if you're taking CoQ10, put a little black pepper on your meal to magnify the benefits! > > > > > > > I would like to hear some more feedback on replacing > > > > Norvir with > > > > Bioperine. > > > > > > > > thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Welcome to our group! > > > > If you received this email from someone who > > > > forwarded it to you and would like to join this > > > > group, send a blank email to > > > > -subscribe and you will get > > > > an email with instructions to follow. You can chose > > > > to receive single emails or a daily digest > > > > (collection of emails). You can post pictures, > > > > images, attach files and search by keyword old > > > > postings in the group. > > > > > > > > For those of you who are members already and want to > > > > switch from single emails to digest or vice versa, > > > > visit www., click on , then > > > > on " edit my membership " and go down to your > > > > selection. The list administrator does not process > > > > any requests, so this is a do-it-yourself easy > > > > process ! > > > > Thanks for joining. You will learn and share a lot > > > > in this group! > > > > > > > > NOTE: I moderate, approve or disapprove emails > > > > before they are posted. Please follow the guidelines > > > > shown in the homepage. I will not allow rudeness, > > > > sexually explicit material, attacks, and anyone who > > > > does not follow the rules. If you are not OK with > > > > this, please do not join the group. > > > > > > > > Forward this email to anyone who may benefit from > > > > this information! Thanks! > > > > In Health, > > > > > > > > Vergel (PoWeRTX@) > > > > List Founder and Moderator > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 Let me make it clear that I think using a liver enzyme inhibitor like Norvir or piper nigrum is a bad idea which should only be used as a last resort. The role of these p450 enzymes is to break down toxins in the body. Reducing their effect, reduces your safety. Inhibiting p450 enzymes also alters the level of many, if not most, medications requiring careful dose adjustments - which is quite a problem for most people with HIV. If you wish to take more CoenzymeQ or more Reyataz, you should take more CoenzymeQ or Reyataz rather than taking compounds which poison your liver function. I take 300 mg Reyataz twice a day rather than take 400 mg Reyataz with Norvir. Only if you have no alternative should you take Norvir, piper nigran, bioperine or other compound designed to prevent your liver from functioning properly. > > > >> > > > > I would like to hear some more feedback on replacing> > > > > Norvir with> > > > > Bioperine.> > > > >> > > > > thanks,> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Welcome to our group!> > > > > If you received this email from someone who> > > > > forwarded it to you and would like to join this> > > > > group, send a blank email to> > > > > -subscribe and you will get> > > > > an email with instructions to follow. You can chose> > > > > to receive single emails or a daily digest> > > > > (collection of emails). You can post pictures,> > > > > images, attach files and search by keyword old> > > > > postings in the group.> > > > >> > > > > For those of you who are members already and want to> > > > > switch from single emails to digest or vice versa,> > > > > visit www., click on , then> > > > > on "edit my membership" and go down to your> > > > > selection. The list administrator does not process> > > > > any requests, so this is a do-it-yourself easy> > > > > process ! > > > > > Thanks for joining. You will learn and share a lot> > > > > in this group!> > > > >> > > > > NOTE: I moderate, approve or disapprove emails> > > > > before they are posted. Please follow the guidelines> > > > > shown in the homepage. I will not allow rudeness,> > > > > sexually explicit material, attacks, and anyone who> > > > > does not follow the rules. If you are not OK with> > > > > this, please do not join the group.> > > > >> > > > > Forward this email to anyone who may benefit from> > > > > this information! Thanks!> > > > > In Health,> > > > >> > > > > Vergel (PoWeRTX@)> > > > > List Founder and Moderator> > > > >> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2007 Report Share Posted March 16, 2007 Let me make it clear that I think using a liver enzyme inhibitor like Norvir or piper nigrum is a bad idea which should only be used as a last resort. The role of these p450 enzymes is to break down toxins in the body. Reducing their effect, reduces your safety. Inhibiting p450 enzymes also alters the level of many, if not most, medications requiring careful dose adjustments - which is quite a problem for most people with HIV. If you wish to take more CoenzymeQ or more Reyataz, you should take more CoenzymeQ or Reyataz rather than taking compounds which poison your liver function. I take 300 mg Reyataz twice a day rather than take 400 mg Reyataz with Norvir. Only if you have no alternative should you take Norvir, piper nigran, bioperine or other compound designed to prevent your liver from functioning properly. > > > >> > > > > I would like to hear some more feedback on replacing> > > > > Norvir with> > > > > Bioperine.> > > > >> > > > > thanks,> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Welcome to our group!> > > > > If you received this email from someone who> > > > > forwarded it to you and would like to join this> > > > > group, send a blank email to> > > > > -subscribe and you will get> > > > > an email with instructions to follow. You can chose> > > > > to receive single emails or a daily digest> > > > > (collection of emails). You can post pictures,> > > > > images, attach files and search by keyword old> > > > > postings in the group.> > > > >> > > > > For those of you who are members already and want to> > > > > switch from single emails to digest or vice versa,> > > > > visit www., click on , then> > > > > on "edit my membership" and go down to your> > > > > selection. The list administrator does not process> > > > > any requests, so this is a do-it-yourself easy> > > > > process ! > > > > > Thanks for joining. You will learn and share a lot> > > > > in this group!> > > > >> > > > > NOTE: I moderate, approve or disapprove emails> > > > > before they are posted. Please follow the guidelines> > > > > shown in the homepage. I will not allow rudeness,> > > > > sexually explicit material, attacks, and anyone who> > > > > does not follow the rules. If you are not OK with> > > > > this, please do not join the group.> > > > >> > > > > Forward this email to anyone who may benefit from> > > > > this information! Thanks!> > > > > In Health,> > > > >> > > > > Vergel (PoWeRTX@)> > > > > List Founder and Moderator> > > > >> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 At 02:07 PM 3/16/2007, Norm Stuart wrote: snip... If you wish to take more CoenzymeQ or more Reyataz, you should take more CoenzymeQ or Reyataz rather than taking compounds which poison your liver function. I take 300 mg Reyataz twice a day rather than take 400 mg Reyataz with Norvir. Only if you have no alternative should you take Norvir, piper nigran, bioperine or other compound designed to prevent your liver from functioning properly. I think this is basically a sound idea--i.e., do more of of the drug or nutrient in question rather than a CYP450 inhibitor. However, it is not really known what the mechanism of action for piperine is, though it probably is CYP450 (in part). The question is--when people DO decide to use a boost, can piperine be a possibly safer, definitely MUCH cheaper alternative to ritonavir? Some data below. M. ** http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/pip_0322.shtml " Piperine, usually at a dose of 20 mg or greater, has been shown to inhibit the metabolism of the following drugs: propanolol, theophylline, phenytoin, sulfadiazene, rifampicin, isoniazid, ethambutol, pyrazinamide and dapsone. This list is not inclusive. Piperine is a nonspecific inhibitor of drugs and xenobiotics. Most drugs metabolized via cytochrome P450 enzymes would likely be affected by piperine. " M. Director, FIAR http://www.fiar.us ----------------------- When your chest is free of your limiting ego, Then you will see the ageless Beloved. You can not see yourself without a mirror; Look at the Beloved, He is the brightest mirror. Translator: Shahram Shiva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 At 02:07 PM 3/16/2007, Norm Stuart wrote: snip... If you wish to take more CoenzymeQ or more Reyataz, you should take more CoenzymeQ or Reyataz rather than taking compounds which poison your liver function. I take 300 mg Reyataz twice a day rather than take 400 mg Reyataz with Norvir. Only if you have no alternative should you take Norvir, piper nigran, bioperine or other compound designed to prevent your liver from functioning properly. I think this is basically a sound idea--i.e., do more of of the drug or nutrient in question rather than a CYP450 inhibitor. However, it is not really known what the mechanism of action for piperine is, though it probably is CYP450 (in part). The question is--when people DO decide to use a boost, can piperine be a possibly safer, definitely MUCH cheaper alternative to ritonavir? Some data below. M. ** http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/pip_0322.shtml " Piperine, usually at a dose of 20 mg or greater, has been shown to inhibit the metabolism of the following drugs: propanolol, theophylline, phenytoin, sulfadiazene, rifampicin, isoniazid, ethambutol, pyrazinamide and dapsone. This list is not inclusive. Piperine is a nonspecific inhibitor of drugs and xenobiotics. Most drugs metabolized via cytochrome P450 enzymes would likely be affected by piperine. " M. Director, FIAR http://www.fiar.us ----------------------- When your chest is free of your limiting ego, Then you will see the ageless Beloved. You can not see yourself without a mirror; Look at the Beloved, He is the brightest mirror. Translator: Shahram Shiva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 The concept of degrading liver enzyme activity, through Norvir or other substance, in order to reduce the dose of a supplement like Cozenzyme-Q to reduce costs is just as dangerous and frankly idiotic as it is to increase the trough level of once a day Reyataz, rather than take Reyataz twice a day. In those cases where inhibiting normal liver function is truly the only alternative to effective drug dosing, piper nigrum may one day prove to be an alternative. , you suggest there may be unknown mysteries about piper nigrum - some of which may make piper nigrum unsuitable for this purpose. I agree. Just imagine the callousness of a firm which claims their extract is a suitable replacment for Norvir and in the same breath claims to be unaware of how their extract functions! Other compounds which inhibit CYP enzymes, such as grapefruit, are destroyed in the gut and thus much safer to consume - but for the same reason do not provide the same level of interference with normal liver enzyme function, which makes it an unsuitable replacement for Norvir in those rare situations where Norvir is actually required. Piper nigrum may be destroyed in the gut like grapefruit, or it may pass into the blood stream to further inhibit enzymes in the liver. I know of no study which has determined this, as has been done for grapefruit. After years of diligent study, you or others, may be able to provide us with answers to these questions. In the interim its idle speculation. But in the bigger picture, I think degrading liver function to adjust drug levels is simply dangerous and sad. There are too many other alternatives. At 02:07 PM 3/16/2007, M. wrote:It is not really known what the mechanism of action for piperine is, though it probably is CYP450 (in part).Some data below. M. If you wish to take more CoenzymeQ or more Reyataz, you should take more CoenzymeQ or Reyataz rather than taking compounds which poison your liver function. I take 300 mg Reyataz twice a day rather than take 400 mg Reyataz with Norvir.Only if you have no alternative should you take Norvir, piper nigran, bioperine or other compound designed to prevent your liver from functioning properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 The concept of degrading liver enzyme activity, through Norvir or other substance, in order to reduce the dose of a supplement like Cozenzyme-Q to reduce costs is just as dangerous and frankly idiotic as it is to increase the trough level of once a day Reyataz, rather than take Reyataz twice a day. In those cases where inhibiting normal liver function is truly the only alternative to effective drug dosing, piper nigrum may one day prove to be an alternative. , you suggest there may be unknown mysteries about piper nigrum - some of which may make piper nigrum unsuitable for this purpose. I agree. Just imagine the callousness of a firm which claims their extract is a suitable replacment for Norvir and in the same breath claims to be unaware of how their extract functions! Other compounds which inhibit CYP enzymes, such as grapefruit, are destroyed in the gut and thus much safer to consume - but for the same reason do not provide the same level of interference with normal liver enzyme function, which makes it an unsuitable replacement for Norvir in those rare situations where Norvir is actually required. Piper nigrum may be destroyed in the gut like grapefruit, or it may pass into the blood stream to further inhibit enzymes in the liver. I know of no study which has determined this, as has been done for grapefruit. After years of diligent study, you or others, may be able to provide us with answers to these questions. In the interim its idle speculation. But in the bigger picture, I think degrading liver function to adjust drug levels is simply dangerous and sad. There are too many other alternatives. At 02:07 PM 3/16/2007, M. wrote:It is not really known what the mechanism of action for piperine is, though it probably is CYP450 (in part).Some data below. M. If you wish to take more CoenzymeQ or more Reyataz, you should take more CoenzymeQ or Reyataz rather than taking compounds which poison your liver function. I take 300 mg Reyataz twice a day rather than take 400 mg Reyataz with Norvir.Only if you have no alternative should you take Norvir, piper nigran, bioperine or other compound designed to prevent your liver from functioning properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2007 Report Share Posted March 17, 2007 The concept of degrading liver enzyme activity, through Norvir or other substance, in order to reduce the dose of a supplement like Cozenzyme-Q to reduce costs is just as dangerous and frankly idiotic as it is to increase the trough level of once a day Reyataz, rather than take Reyataz twice a day. In those cases where inhibiting normal liver function is truly the only alternative to effective drug dosing, piper nigrum may one day prove to be an alternative. , you suggest there may be unknown mysteries about piper nigrum - some of which may make piper nigrum unsuitable for this purpose. I agree. Just imagine the callousness of a firm which claims their extract is a suitable replacment for Norvir and in the same breath claims to be unaware of how their extract functions! Other compounds which inhibit CYP enzymes, such as grapefruit, are destroyed in the gut and thus much safer to consume - but for the same reason do not provide the same level of interference with normal liver enzyme function, which makes it an unsuitable replacement for Norvir in those rare situations where Norvir is actually required. Piper nigrum may be destroyed in the gut like grapefruit, or it may pass into the blood stream to further inhibit enzymes in the liver. I know of no study which has determined this, as has been done for grapefruit. After years of diligent study, you or others, may be able to provide us with answers to these questions. In the interim its idle speculation. But in the bigger picture, I think degrading liver function to adjust drug levels is simply dangerous and sad. There are too many other alternatives. At 02:07 PM 3/16/2007, M. wrote:It is not really known what the mechanism of action for piperine is, though it probably is CYP450 (in part).Some data below. M. If you wish to take more CoenzymeQ or more Reyataz, you should take more CoenzymeQ or Reyataz rather than taking compounds which poison your liver function. I take 300 mg Reyataz twice a day rather than take 400 mg Reyataz with Norvir.Only if you have no alternative should you take Norvir, piper nigran, bioperine or other compound designed to prevent your liver from functioning properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Twice daily dosing of Reyataz is fine for patients who don't miss doses, but for patients who are less compliant with their drug regimen, they are much more likely to miss doses if taking them twice daily than if taking boosted Reyataz once daily. Norvir may have its disadvantages, but it makes once daily dosing possible for those unable to consistantly take twice daily doses. For those of us who have been around since the days of six times per day AZT (including setting an alarm in the middle of the night), twice daily dosing doesn't seem much of a burden, but for many people more recently diagnosed, it doesNorm Stuart <ns02@...> wrote: The concept of degrading liver enzyme activity, through Norvir or other substance, in order to reduce the dose of a supplement like Cozenzyme-Q to reduce costs is just as dangerous and frankly idiotic as it is to increase the trough level of once a day Reyataz, rather than take Reyataz twice a day. In those cases where inhibiting normal liver function is truly the only alternative to effective drug dosing, piper nigrum may one day prove to be an alternative. , you suggest there may be unknown mysteries about piper nigrum - some of which may make piper nigrum unsuitable for this purpose. I agree. Just imagine the callousness of a firm which claims their extract is a suitable replacment for Norvir and in the same breath claims to be unaware of how their extract functions! Other compounds which inhibit CYP enzymes, such as grapefruit, are destroyed in the gut and thus much safer to consume - but for the same reason do not provide the same level of interference with normal liver enzyme function, which makes it an unsuitable replacement for Norvir in those rare situations where Norvir is actually required. Piper nigrum may be destroyed in the gut like grapefruit, or it may pass into the blood stream to further inhibit enzymes in the liver. I know of no study which has determined this, as has been done for grapefruit. After years of diligent study, you or others, may be able to provide us with answers to these questions. In the interim its idle speculation. But in the bigger picture, I think degrading liver function to adjust drug levels is simply dangerous and sad. There are too many other alternatives. At 02:07 PM 3/16/2007, M. wrote:It is not really known what the mechanism of action for piperine is, though it probably is CYP450 (in part).Some data below. M. If you wish to take more CoenzymeQ or more Reyataz, you should take more CoenzymeQ or Reyataz rather than taking compounds which poison your liver function. I take 300 mg Reyataz twice a day rather than take 400 mg Reyataz with Norvir.Only if you have no alternative should you take Norvir, piper nigran, bioperine or other compound designed to prevent your liver from functioning properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Twice daily dosing of Reyataz is fine for patients who don't miss doses, but for patients who are less compliant with their drug regimen, they are much more likely to miss doses if taking them twice daily than if taking boosted Reyataz once daily. Norvir may have its disadvantages, but it makes once daily dosing possible for those unable to consistantly take twice daily doses. For those of us who have been around since the days of six times per day AZT (including setting an alarm in the middle of the night), twice daily dosing doesn't seem much of a burden, but for many people more recently diagnosed, it doesNorm Stuart <ns02@...> wrote: The concept of degrading liver enzyme activity, through Norvir or other substance, in order to reduce the dose of a supplement like Cozenzyme-Q to reduce costs is just as dangerous and frankly idiotic as it is to increase the trough level of once a day Reyataz, rather than take Reyataz twice a day. In those cases where inhibiting normal liver function is truly the only alternative to effective drug dosing, piper nigrum may one day prove to be an alternative. , you suggest there may be unknown mysteries about piper nigrum - some of which may make piper nigrum unsuitable for this purpose. I agree. Just imagine the callousness of a firm which claims their extract is a suitable replacment for Norvir and in the same breath claims to be unaware of how their extract functions! Other compounds which inhibit CYP enzymes, such as grapefruit, are destroyed in the gut and thus much safer to consume - but for the same reason do not provide the same level of interference with normal liver enzyme function, which makes it an unsuitable replacement for Norvir in those rare situations where Norvir is actually required. Piper nigrum may be destroyed in the gut like grapefruit, or it may pass into the blood stream to further inhibit enzymes in the liver. I know of no study which has determined this, as has been done for grapefruit. After years of diligent study, you or others, may be able to provide us with answers to these questions. In the interim its idle speculation. But in the bigger picture, I think degrading liver function to adjust drug levels is simply dangerous and sad. There are too many other alternatives. At 02:07 PM 3/16/2007, M. wrote:It is not really known what the mechanism of action for piperine is, though it probably is CYP450 (in part).Some data below. M. If you wish to take more CoenzymeQ or more Reyataz, you should take more CoenzymeQ or Reyataz rather than taking compounds which poison your liver function. I take 300 mg Reyataz twice a day rather than take 400 mg Reyataz with Norvir.Only if you have no alternative should you take Norvir, piper nigran, bioperine or other compound designed to prevent your liver from functioning properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 At 02:02 PM 3/17/2007, Norm Stuart wrote: >snip... >Piper nigrum may be destroyed in the gut like grapefruit, or it may pass >into the blood stream to further inhibit enzymes in the liver. I know of >no study which has determined this, as has been done for grapefruit. After >years of diligent study, you or others, may be able to provide us with >answers to these questions. In the interim its idle speculation. But in >the bigger picture, I think degrading liver function to adjust drug levels >is simply dangerous and sad. There are too many other alternatives. What other alternatives? (Aside from higher doses of PIs, as you've noted as an option, but one with attendant increased toxicities.) Otherwise, I agree with what you're saying in general--that is, as others have noted, we don't know enough about how Piperine works to increase blood levels. It may be entirely in the gut--which is actually what I suspect. But I don't believe the data exist to say yet. My idea for a PK study would be for a small group (5?) of HIV-negative volunteers to do PI with and without P. nigrum to assess blood levels, with a washout period. So a 1-2 day dosing of the PI with, an appropriate washout period (2 weeks?) then a dosing with PI+piperine. Maybe a randomization that has say 3 start PI then washout PI+piperine and another three on PI+piperine, washout and PI alone. It could at least give us data on the effect on plasma blood levels. Hey--Gus--I understand what you're saying re maraviroc and you may be right--indeed, any new good ARV will be one more for the arsenal. I guess I'm still worried by the data showing about 50% of people have dual/mixed R5/X4 HIV utilization. Which means that the maraviroc cost (which knowing Pfizer will be rapacious) and add on another test to evaluate utilization (which test? how sensitive/specific are they really?) -- well....I just wish there'd be more drugs targeting gp41, etc. And they're abandoning those because they won't be able to screw enough money out of people, it seems. But then I live in a fantasy world of wishing that science was geared toward best health outcomes rather than biggest bang for the Wall St. parasites' buck! Sigh...maybe one day??? M. M. Director, FIAR http://www.fiar.us ----------------------- When your chest is free of your limiting ego, Then you will see the ageless Beloved. You can not see yourself without a mirror; Look at the Beloved, He is the brightest mirror. Translator: Shahram Shiva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 At 02:02 PM 3/17/2007, Norm Stuart wrote: >snip... >Piper nigrum may be destroyed in the gut like grapefruit, or it may pass >into the blood stream to further inhibit enzymes in the liver. I know of >no study which has determined this, as has been done for grapefruit. After >years of diligent study, you or others, may be able to provide us with >answers to these questions. In the interim its idle speculation. But in >the bigger picture, I think degrading liver function to adjust drug levels >is simply dangerous and sad. There are too many other alternatives. What other alternatives? (Aside from higher doses of PIs, as you've noted as an option, but one with attendant increased toxicities.) Otherwise, I agree with what you're saying in general--that is, as others have noted, we don't know enough about how Piperine works to increase blood levels. It may be entirely in the gut--which is actually what I suspect. But I don't believe the data exist to say yet. My idea for a PK study would be for a small group (5?) of HIV-negative volunteers to do PI with and without P. nigrum to assess blood levels, with a washout period. So a 1-2 day dosing of the PI with, an appropriate washout period (2 weeks?) then a dosing with PI+piperine. Maybe a randomization that has say 3 start PI then washout PI+piperine and another three on PI+piperine, washout and PI alone. It could at least give us data on the effect on plasma blood levels. Hey--Gus--I understand what you're saying re maraviroc and you may be right--indeed, any new good ARV will be one more for the arsenal. I guess I'm still worried by the data showing about 50% of people have dual/mixed R5/X4 HIV utilization. Which means that the maraviroc cost (which knowing Pfizer will be rapacious) and add on another test to evaluate utilization (which test? how sensitive/specific are they really?) -- well....I just wish there'd be more drugs targeting gp41, etc. And they're abandoning those because they won't be able to screw enough money out of people, it seems. But then I live in a fantasy world of wishing that science was geared toward best health outcomes rather than biggest bang for the Wall St. parasites' buck! Sigh...maybe one day??? M. M. Director, FIAR http://www.fiar.us ----------------------- When your chest is free of your limiting ego, Then you will see the ageless Beloved. You can not see yourself without a mirror; Look at the Beloved, He is the brightest mirror. Translator: Shahram Shiva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Let me clear up your understanding of some important issues for you. Any side-effects associated with a higher level of protease inhibitor are identical regardless of how you achieve this. The potential side-effects of increasing the level of protease inhibitor will be the same if you achieve this higher level of protease inhibitor by stopping up the liver enzyme system with piper nigrum or Norvir -- or if you simply take a reduced but more frequent dose of protease inhibitor. The addition of Norvir or piper nigrum will add additional side effects of their own, but the potential side-effects of the higher protease inhibitor drug level will be the same for all three. If you really want to do a study of protease inhibitor drug levels with HIV negative people, as you claim: 1.) you'll need a two week period on protease inhibitor, then gas chromatography of drug level in the blood; 2.) then a two week period on protease inhibitor plus piper nigrum, then gas chromatography drug level in the blood. Why two weeks? It takes this long to establish a steady drug level because the production level of liver enzymes changes. The more toxin you take, such as protease inhibitor, piper nigrum, or norvir, the more liver enzymes that get produced. But this is not a linear function. As with Norvir, you will almost certainly discover that a high level of piper nigrum is just as ineffective as a very low level, as more liver enzymes are created at high levels of piper nigrum in order to destroy the toxin. A medium dose, what ever that proves to be, will be most effective - blocking liver enzyme activity without triggering the production of far more liver enzymes. After two weeks, the liver enzyme to drug balance is evened out at a stable level. Then you can get an accurate reading of how the combo works. This still leaves the serious problem of piper nigrum or Norivr, greatly increasing the level of many other drugs and toxins. Each of which is a new problem to address. I find taking a lower dose of Reyataz twice a day, instead of a higher dose with Norvir once a day, to be a simple, direct and effective solution which eliminates all of these problems. > >snip...> >Piper nigrum may be destroyed in the gut like grapefruit, or it may pass > >into the blood stream to further inhibit enzymes in the liver. I know of > >no study which has determined this, as has been done for grapefruit. After > >years of diligent study, you or others, may be able to provide us with > >answers to these questions. In the interim its idle speculation. But in > >the bigger picture, I think degrading liver function to adjust drug levels > >is simply dangerous and sad. There are too many other alternatives.> > What other alternatives? (Aside from higher doses of PIs, as you've noted > as an option, but one with attendant increased toxicities.)> > Otherwise, I agree with what you're saying in general--that is, as others > have noted, we don't know enough about how Piperine works to increase blood > levels. It may be entirely in the gut--which is actually what I suspect. > But I don't believe the data exist to say yet.> > My idea for a PK study would be for a small group (5?) of HIV-negative > volunteers to do PI with and without P. nigrum to assess blood levels, with > a washout period. So a 1-2 day dosing of the PI with, an appropriate > washout period (2 weeks?) then a dosing with PI+piperine. Maybe a > randomization that has say 3 start PI then washout PI+piperine and another > three on PI+piperine, washout and PI alone. It could at least give us data > on the effect on plasma blood levels.> > Hey--Gus--I understand what you're saying re maraviroc and you may be > right--indeed, any new good ARV will be one more for the arsenal. I guess > I'm still worried by the data showing about 50% of people have dual/mixed > R5/X4 HIV utilization. Which means that the maraviroc cost (which knowing > Pfizer will be rapacious) and add on another test to evaluate utilization > (which test? how sensitive/specific are they really?) -- well....I just > wish there'd be more drugs targeting gp41, etc. And they're abandoning > those because they won't be able to screw enough money out of people, it > seems.> > But then I live in a fantasy world of wishing that science was geared > toward best health outcomes rather than biggest bang for the Wall St. > parasites' buck! Sigh...maybe one day???> M. > > M. > Director, FIAR> http://www.fiar.us> -----------------------> When your chest is free of your limiting ego,> Then you will see the ageless Beloved.> You can not see yourself without a mirror;> Look at the Beloved, He is the brightest mirror.> > Translator: Shahram Shiva> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Let me clear up your understanding of some important issues for you. Any side-effects associated with a higher level of protease inhibitor are identical regardless of how you achieve this. The potential side-effects of increasing the level of protease inhibitor will be the same if you achieve this higher level of protease inhibitor by stopping up the liver enzyme system with piper nigrum or Norvir -- or if you simply take a reduced but more frequent dose of protease inhibitor. The addition of Norvir or piper nigrum will add additional side effects of their own, but the potential side-effects of the higher protease inhibitor drug level will be the same for all three. If you really want to do a study of protease inhibitor drug levels with HIV negative people, as you claim: 1.) you'll need a two week period on protease inhibitor, then gas chromatography of drug level in the blood; 2.) then a two week period on protease inhibitor plus piper nigrum, then gas chromatography drug level in the blood. Why two weeks? It takes this long to establish a steady drug level because the production level of liver enzymes changes. The more toxin you take, such as protease inhibitor, piper nigrum, or norvir, the more liver enzymes that get produced. But this is not a linear function. As with Norvir, you will almost certainly discover that a high level of piper nigrum is just as ineffective as a very low level, as more liver enzymes are created at high levels of piper nigrum in order to destroy the toxin. A medium dose, what ever that proves to be, will be most effective - blocking liver enzyme activity without triggering the production of far more liver enzymes. After two weeks, the liver enzyme to drug balance is evened out at a stable level. Then you can get an accurate reading of how the combo works. This still leaves the serious problem of piper nigrum or Norivr, greatly increasing the level of many other drugs and toxins. Each of which is a new problem to address. I find taking a lower dose of Reyataz twice a day, instead of a higher dose with Norvir once a day, to be a simple, direct and effective solution which eliminates all of these problems. > >snip...> >Piper nigrum may be destroyed in the gut like grapefruit, or it may pass > >into the blood stream to further inhibit enzymes in the liver. I know of > >no study which has determined this, as has been done for grapefruit. After > >years of diligent study, you or others, may be able to provide us with > >answers to these questions. In the interim its idle speculation. But in > >the bigger picture, I think degrading liver function to adjust drug levels > >is simply dangerous and sad. There are too many other alternatives.> > What other alternatives? (Aside from higher doses of PIs, as you've noted > as an option, but one with attendant increased toxicities.)> > Otherwise, I agree with what you're saying in general--that is, as others > have noted, we don't know enough about how Piperine works to increase blood > levels. It may be entirely in the gut--which is actually what I suspect. > But I don't believe the data exist to say yet.> > My idea for a PK study would be for a small group (5?) of HIV-negative > volunteers to do PI with and without P. nigrum to assess blood levels, with > a washout period. So a 1-2 day dosing of the PI with, an appropriate > washout period (2 weeks?) then a dosing with PI+piperine. Maybe a > randomization that has say 3 start PI then washout PI+piperine and another > three on PI+piperine, washout and PI alone. It could at least give us data > on the effect on plasma blood levels.> > Hey--Gus--I understand what you're saying re maraviroc and you may be > right--indeed, any new good ARV will be one more for the arsenal. I guess > I'm still worried by the data showing about 50% of people have dual/mixed > R5/X4 HIV utilization. Which means that the maraviroc cost (which knowing > Pfizer will be rapacious) and add on another test to evaluate utilization > (which test? how sensitive/specific are they really?) -- well....I just > wish there'd be more drugs targeting gp41, etc. And they're abandoning > those because they won't be able to screw enough money out of people, it > seems.> > But then I live in a fantasy world of wishing that science was geared > toward best health outcomes rather than biggest bang for the Wall St. > parasites' buck! Sigh...maybe one day???> M. > > M. > Director, FIAR> http://www.fiar.us> -----------------------> When your chest is free of your limiting ego,> Then you will see the ageless Beloved.> You can not see yourself without a mirror;> Look at the Beloved, He is the brightest mirror.> > Translator: Shahram Shiva> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 If you are considering modifying your boosted PI regimen for an unboosted regimen, please discuss the details of your specific case with your own doctor.There are many cases where this is maybe acceptable, and even preferable, but for many people this would be very unwise.The pharmacology of boosted PIs is simply not the same thing as doubling doses of an unboosted p.i. Barrowpozbod@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 At 07:44 PM 3/18/2007, Norm Stuart wrote: Let me clear up your understanding of some important issues for you. Any side-effects associated with a higher level of protease inhibitor are identical regardless of how you achieve this. That may be true of atazanavir/Reyataz, but it may not be true of other PIs. See, e.g., http://www.hivandhepatitis.com/2006icr/16aids/docs/082906_c.html Boosted darunavir had less adverse events than without the boost. But your approach of more taz and no norvir/ritonavir probably makes a good deal of sense and I wasn't trying to dismiss or diminish that treatment choice. I apologize if you thought I meant it that way! snip If you really want to do a study of protease inhibitor drug levels with HIV negative people, as you claim: 1.) you'll need a two week period on protease inhibitor, then gas chromatography of drug level in the blood; I am not familiar enough with the technology for pk evaluation but that sounds right as far as to which technique (gas chromatography) for assessing the blood level. If we do such a study, we will of course consult with and find a principal investigator well versed in this area. Such an individual will also help us to establish the best scheduling for a pk study. While 2 weeks may indeed be ideal, I think it will depend on factors such as which protease inhibitor(s) we investigate and the length of time used in other pk studies. I haven't researched this yet. Just the same--I think your comments on the need for a 2 week regimen are important and need to be considered, regardless of historical approaches. Brings me to the 2nd point. Which protease inhibitors? Saquinavir pretty much sucks as a PI without a ritonavir boost. It would probably make sense to try it with the piperine. There are There are eight FDA approved protease inhibitors so far, they are: amprenavir (Agenerase), fosamprenavir (Lexiva), indinavir (Crixivan), lopinavir/ritonavir (Kaletra), ritonavir (Norvir), saquinavir (Fortovase), and nelfinavir (Viracept). It will be important to consider which of these should be evaluated--and I am also thinking about developing nations and their use of PIs when generics become available. They're not yet--putting millions of lives at risk. So my first inclination would be to study saquinavir. Genocidally priced ritonavir will not be an option for most of these people. This underscores the urgency to find reasonable (and, one hopes, safer) alternatives. Even if piperine interferes with liver CYP3A4, I'd wager its toxicity profile is a LOT milder than ritonavir's. Meantime, I think your approach, again, to increased dose of taz w/o ritonavir is probably a damn good one. Indeed, I just suggested it as an option to someone who was about ready to stop her meds because she couldn't stand the side effects. I said she should speak to her physician about the idea first as well. (I'll note she is also on d4T and 3TC.) Norm--thanks for your insights and thoughts on this. At the moment, there is no money to do such a study--but it would be an important one to undertake for myriad reasons! M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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