Light et al. paper

[Guest guest]

Hi, Kurt.

I took a look at the paper by Light et al. that you mentioned. I, too, think

it's a very interesting paper. I think it describes at least a piece of what's

going on.

I do think it needs to be interpreted carefully, though, in the same way that we

agree that the GD-MCB hypothesis needs to be looked at carefully.

Here are some comments:

1. First, it's a gene expression study. Gene expression reflects the present

physiology of the cells that are studied. It tells us something about how the

cells are currently carrying on their " business. " However, it doesn't tell us

how they got that way. Changes in gene expression are effects of upstream

causes in the pathogenesis. I think that an important question is what are the

causes? One of the things that is known about gene expression in general is

that methylation silences it. So when higher than normal gene expression is

observed, I think one of the first things to look at is methylation. As you

know, the GD-MCB hypothesis suggests that there is methylation deficit in CFS.

Perhaps that can account for some of the elevated gene expression in CFS that

has been observed in several studies. It's also known, and this paper

acknowledges, that the HPA axis and the immune system are dysfunctional in CFS.

I think it's very likely that the expression of several of the genes discussed

in this paper are affected by these dysfunctions.

2. Second, the gene expression studies, including this one, usually look at

white blood cells. This gives information about the gene expression in these

particular cells. However, the authors of these studies often infer that their

results also apply to other cell types in the body, such as nerve cells, as is

suggested in the Light et al. study. However, I have not seen evidence that

this is the case. In fact, we know that the reason the various cell types in

the body are different is precisely because they express their genes

differently. Why would we expect that the changes observed in the gene

expression in white blood cells would also be present in neurons?

3. The Light et al. paper implies that the symptom of fatigue in CFS results

from enhanced sensation of molecules produced by muscles when they are used. In

other words, they are suggesting that the fatigue is sort of a " figment of the

nervous system's imagination, " rather than resulting from a physiological

deficit in ATP production in the mitochondria. However, this ignores a large

body of evidence of mito dysfunction in CFS. The most direct evidence is the

testing done by McLaren at Acumen Lab in the UK, but there is a

great deal of supportive evidence as well.

So again, I think this is an interesting paper, but that it needs to be

interpreted in the light of the body of research into CFS that already exists.

Best regards,

Rich

> Right now I am fascinated by the prospect that we have a maladapted fatigue

receptor system, Dr Light's research. This is a whole new angle that makes a

LOT of sense. Dr. Light started with the major symptom, massive fatigue, and

decided to explore the most immediate causes of that type of fatigue, and was

led directly to a genetic defect in our fatigue receptors. HE believes our

fatigue receptors have become over-sensitized. We will hear more about this I

hope. And maybe the eventual answer will include several factors. We just have

to hang in there awhile longer.

>

> --Kurt

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

I was hoping you would read that paper. There is also a book chapter that

includes more elaboration of this analysis, I can send it back channel if you

like. I believe Light's work on fatigue and pain receptors in PWC can fill in

some missing pieces to the CFS puzzle. There is an obvious neurological

component to CFS that has not been understood yet.

Dr. Bell could sometimes bring a remission in CFS to his patients by altering

nerve function, and Mike Dessin's remission appears to also be largely from a

neurological treatment (although I wonder what was in his amino IVs, that might

have been a big factor also).

I think your upstream factor comments have merit, obviously that is the big

question with Light's study. He believes that the reason for the increased

expression includes a prior process of hyper-sensitization of the receptors (not

a 'figment of their imagination' but conditioning from prior over-use). Also he

mentions somewhere either in that paper or the book chapter that there may have

been excess NGF (neuron growth factor) at some point and PWC may simply have too

many pain and fatigue receptors, which would also lead to over-sensitivity.

That reminds me of metallothionine regulation issues seen in autism, so if

nothing else, maybe there is a generative relation between fatigue receptor

overgrowth and methylation problems. But fixing methylation would not reverse

fatigue receptor over-growth, we would need to find ways to de-sensitize those

extra fatigue neurons. Dr Light says he is working on that and does not have an

answer yet as to how to treat oversensitized fatigue receptors.

I have been trying to learn more about the specific receptor types he identified

in his study as being overexpressed. That might be important, particularly the

acid-sensing fatigue receptor, given the leaky gut and dysbiosis in CFS, which

produces some acids.

He also mentions in the book chapter some interesting research done in the 1890s

where a scientist proved that fatigue is 'in the blood' somehow. He transfused

blood from a fatigued animal to a rested animal, and the rested animal

immediately became fatigued. Clearly a receptor response to some substance

produced in the blood during exhertion.

In fairness, the GD-MCB idea also is subject to upstream factors. I know of

several cases where CFS has gone into remission very quickly. As short as a

week, and this is from people who were sick for years. I can give some specific

cases if you like. These recovery cases did not involve fixing methylation.

Maybe something upstream to GD got fixed, hard to say, but at least a partial

neurological explanation for CFS seems likely in these cases, like with Dr

Bell's patients.

Perhaps CFS starts with a fatigue receptor problem (a post-viral effect

perhaps), and that eventually leads to GD-MCB. Excessive and unexplainable

fatigue and malaise by itself causes a lot of biological distress, which could

weaken methylation and immune functions, which would produce more fatigue and

worsen fatigue receptor sensitivity and lead to its own vicious cycle.

Clearly CFS does involve a vicious cycle of some type, and I believe Dr Light

has shown that a fatigue and pain receptor pathology lies somewhere in that

cycle.

--Kurt

>

> > Right now I am fascinated by the prospect that we have a maladapted fatigue

receptor system, Dr Light's research. This is a whole new angle that makes a

LOT of sense. Dr. Light started with the major symptom, massive fatigue, and

decided to explore the most immediate causes of that type of fatigue, and was

led directly to a genetic defect in our fatigue receptors. HE believes our

fatigue receptors have become over-sensitized. We will hear more about this I

hope. And maybe the eventual answer will include several factors. We just have

to hang in there awhile longer.

> >

> > --Kurt

>

[Guest guest]

> I know of several cases where CFS has gone into remission very

> quickly. As short as a week, and this is from people who were sick

> for years. I can give some specific cases if you like.

>

Hi Kurt

I would like to know more about this

What did they do

Was it true CFS?

Thanks

Steve

[Guest guest]

Steve,

OK, I will list some cases, a few were temporary, most have been permanent.

Please note that I am NOT promoting this type of quick recovery effort, I know

they have happened, but also that they are rare and might not be safe to try for

someone with strong secondary problems such as DHF and high heavy metals load.

Also, I do know know where these people fall on the 'subsets' scale. But they

are real cases that I believe the point of discussing them is to learn something

about the nature of CFS, and to see that there may be some mystery infection

involved, some neurological maladaptation, or endocrine system dysregulation,

and apparently sometimes these issues can be solved rapidly in some cases.

Clearly without extensive studies of these cases they remain hearsay/anecdotal.

1. Various psychotropics in combination have pulled many people out for months

or years, including those sick for along time (by Dr Bell, I don't believe he

will do this anymore as it did not last, but he often had full recoveries in 2-4

hours)

2. I know a person who recovered from short-term CFS using MMS. I know enough

about his case to believe that he was lucky to find something in time, he had

the full syndrome and would have probably been sick for years like the rest of

us. This man had severe CFS for about six months, for treatment he worked up to

15 drops of MMS twice each day plus large doses of Vitamin C between the MMS

doses and also probiotics and a few vitamines and he quickly went into full

recovery. He stays on 6 drops daily of MMS now for maintenance. I should note

that I tried working up to this dose and could not handle the die-off/detox

above 7 drops daily, but I do respond to MMS and probably could gain partial

recovery from it if I could improve my tolerance or detox enough to go to full

dose. This is one I continue to work on.

3. I have a realtive who had full CFS for 7 years and was a patient of

Cheney. She recovered from Goji Juice in combination with whey protein,

vegetable juicing and calming oils (probably the most dramatic shift I have

seen, she recovered in literally one week after she added the Goji to her

regimine, she drank 32 oz in that week, she has now been better 3 years. I have

tried some of this also but do not tolerate the natural sugars in higher doses

of Goji. But small doses, even the dried fruit, do give me an immediate energy

burst, so I wonder how that happens, no other food does that for me. And Goji

is not a stimulant, it has been studied, so something else is happening there.

4. Lightning Process (or a related therapy), one young man sick for years with

CFS blogged his recovery and listed his activities for several years afterwards.

I have corresponded with about 5-10 people who have recovered from LP or related

therapies, this is very real for those people and while some are just CF, a few

have been classic CFS.

5. One person with classic CFS temporarily recovered using DMT in the Shanamic

drink Ayahuasca. This produced a full back to normal strength with no

post-exertion problems. AS the drink (probably the DMT) wore off, he returned

to CFS. This is an obvious case of neurochemical alteration reversing CFS

somehow, maybe similar to what Bell found.

6. My own temporary story. The anti-parasitic Vermox produced a full but

temporary remission, within about 6 hours of the dose. This happened two

different times. At this time I was only partly disabled by CFS, and had been

sick for about two years. I don't think it would work as well now.

I know many more recovery stories of people I have corresponded with or know

personally, but most take much longer than one week.

--Kurt

>

>

> > I know of several cases where CFS has gone into remission very

> > quickly. As short as a week, and this is from people who were sick

> > for years. I can give some specific cases if you like.

> >

>

> Hi Kurt

>

> I would like to know more about this

>

> What did they do

> Was it true CFS?

> Thanks

>

> Steve

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Kurt

The information you present is interesting and it makes me think maybe

some of that stuff may help me

I will certainly save this email

Can you tell me what MMS And DMT is?

Steve

On Oct 1, 2009, at 1:06 PM, KurtR1351 wrote:

> Steve,

> OK, I will list some cases, a few were temporary, most have been

> permanent. Please note that I am NOT promoting this type of quick

> recovery effort, I know they have happened, but also that they are

> rare and might not be safe to try for someone with strong secondary

> problems such as DHF and high heavy metals load. Also, I do know

> know where these people fall on the 'subsets' scale. But they are

> real cases that I believe the point of discussing them is to learn

> something about the nature of CFS, and to see that there may be some

> mystery infection involved, some neurological maladaptation, or

> endocrine system dysregulation, and apparently sometimes these

> issues can be solved rapidly in some cases. Clearly without

> extensive studies of these cases they remain hearsay/anecdotal.

>

> 1. Various psychotropics in combination have pulled many people out

> for months or years, including those sick for along time (by Dr

> Bell, I don't believe he will do this anymore as it did not last,

> but he often had full recoveries in 2-4 hours)

>

> 2. I know a person who recovered from short-term CFS using MMS. I

> know enough about his case to believe that he was lucky to find

> something in time, he had the full syndrome and would have probably

> been sick for years like the rest of us. This man had severe CFS for

> about six months, for treatment he worked up to 15 drops of MMS

> twice each day plus large doses of Vitamin C between the MMS doses

> and also probiotics and a few vitamines and he quickly went into

> full recovery. He stays on 6 drops daily of MMS now for maintenance.

> I should note that I tried working up to this dose and could not

> handle the die-off/detox above 7 drops daily, but I do respond to

> MMS and probably could gain partial recovery from it if I could

> improve my tolerance or detox enough to go to full dose. This is one

> I continue to work on.

>

> 3. I have a realtive who had full CFS for 7 years and was a patient

> of Cheney. She recovered from Goji Juice in combination with

> whey protein, vegetable juicing and calming oils (probably the most

> dramatic shift I have seen, she recovered in literally one week

> after she added the Goji to her regimine, she drank 32 oz in that

> week, she has now been better 3 years. I have tried some of this

> also but do not tolerate the natural sugars in higher doses of Goji.

> But small doses, even the dried fruit, do give me an immediate

> energy burst, so I wonder how that happens, no other food does that

> for me. And Goji is not a stimulant, it has been studied, so

> something else is happening there.

>

> 4. Lightning Process (or a related therapy), one young man sick for

> years with CFS blogged his recovery and listed his activities for

> several years afterwards. I have corresponded with about 5-10 people

> who have recovered from LP or related therapies, this is very real

> for those people and while some are just CF, a few have been classic

> CFS.

>

> 5. One person with classic CFS temporarily recovered using DMT in

> the Shanamic drink Ayahuasca. This produced a full back to normal

> strength with no post-exertion problems. AS the drink (probably the

> DMT) wore off, he returned to CFS. This is an obvious case of

> neurochemical alteration reversing CFS somehow, maybe similar to

> what Bell found.

>

> 6. My own temporary story. The anti-parasitic Vermox produced a full

> but temporary remission, within about 6 hours of the dose. This

> happened two different times. At this time I was only partly

> disabled by CFS, and had been sick for about two years. I don't

> think it would work as well now.

>

> I know many more recovery stories of people I have corresponded with

> or know personally, but most take much longer than one week.

>

> --Kurt

>

>

> >

> >

> > > I know of several cases where CFS has gone into remission very

> > > quickly. As short as a week, and this is from people who were sick

> > > for years. I can give some specific cases if you like.

> > >

> >

> > Hi Kurt

> >

> > I would like to know more about this

> >

> > What did they do

> > Was it true CFS?

> > Thanks

> >

> > Steve

> >

>

>

>

......if Iam acquainted with all the sacred secrets and all knowledge,

but do not have love, I am nothing.

Saul of Tarsus

[Guest guest]

MMS is Miracle Mineral Supplement:

Here is a good link:

http://kurtsprotocol.blogspot.com/2009/06/mms-for-cfs.html

MMS, or 'Miracle Mineral Supplement' is a water purifier being used to

self-treat a variety of infections and chronic health problems. There is plenty

of discussion now on the web about the use of MMS and based on many reports MMS

can be helpful for Lyme and also for CFS.

DMT: Abbreviation for N,N-dimethyltryptamine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine

Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) is a naturally-occurring tryptamine and potent

psychedelic drug, found not only in many plants, but also in trace amounts in

the human body where its natural function is undetermined. Structurally, it is

analogous to the neurotransmitter serotonin (5-HT)

Marti

> > >

> > >

> > > > I know of several cases where CFS has gone into remission very

> > > > quickly. As short as a week, and this is from people who were sick

> > > > for years. I can give some specific cases if you like.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Hi Kurt

> > >

> > > I would like to know more about this

> > >

> > > What did they do

> > > Was it true CFS?

> > > Thanks

> > >

> > > Steve

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

> .....if Iam acquainted with all the sacred secrets and all knowledge,

> but do not have love, I am nothing.

> Saul of Tarsus

>

[Guest guest]

> The information you present is interesting and it makes me think maybe

> some of that stuff may help me

> I will certainly save this email

>

> Can you tell me what MMS And DMT is?

Steve,

Looks like Marti answered that well, MMS is a two-part formula that when mixed

together produces a tiny amount of chlorine dioxide, an extremely potent

anti-microbial. MMS is the latest wonder treatment, and it really does work, if

you can tolerate the smell and taste (like drinking swimming pool water). Some

people are using it transdermally, I have not tried that yet because I want to

work on my digestive system. The effect is somewhat like salt/c, but without

the kidney distress. When it breaks down, chlorine dioxide does form trace

amounts of salt and water. But the most interesting fact about this is that

chlorine dioxide is used industrially to break down biofilms, and that may be

one of its effects on the human body. If you follow the biofilm topics, this is

significant.

DMT is a hallucinogenic chemical produced in the pineal gland, we all have some

trace amounts of this, or can produce this, and it is involved in some endocrine

regulation functions.

I just thought of two more interesting quick cure cases for CFS.

A woman who posted to a CFS group a year or two ago claimed that she had brain

surgery for some type of brain cyst or growth, and one of her amygdala had to be

removed as part of the surgery (we have two of them, one in each hemisphere of

the brain). And after recovering from the surgery, her CFS vanished. So her

fight-flight reaction potential would have been cut in half, maybe Gupta is

right about amygdala involvement in CFS.

Another person posted a few years ago that they went into a coma for three

months. I don't recall the reason, either an accident or illness, but after

coming out of the coma, the CFS was also gone. This suggests something, but

what? Maybe some type of desensitization occurred during the coma. Or maybe IV

feeding allowed the gut to heal?

CFS researchers should be studying cases like this, in fact that is how medical

researchers study nearly every other illness, they often write journal articles

about curious cases.

We are basically ignored by mainstream research. I think we need a telethon,

like Jerry's MD telethons, or something to raise awareness.

--Kurt

[Guest guest]

OK Thanks

Well I would like a miracle cure so far the protocol has been the best

Ha

How about Riches Kids ?

We can have him on TV for three days singing songs and looking tired

(maybe have him put on a few pounds to look like Jerry)

A bunch of PWC's in the back taking phone calls and taking frequent naps

Really off Topic

Steve

On Oct 2, 2009, at 10:10 AM, KurtR1351 wrote:

>

>

>

> > The information you present is interesting and it makes me think

> maybe

> > some of that stuff may help me

> > I will certainly save this email

> >

> > Can you tell me what MMS And DMT is?

>

> Steve,

> Looks like Marti answered that well, MMS is a two-part formula that

> when mixed together produces a tiny amount of chlorine dioxide, an

> extremely potent anti-microbial. MMS is the latest wonder treatment,

> and it really does work, if you can tolerate the smell and taste

> (like drinking swimming pool water). Some people are using it

> transdermally, I have not tried that yet because I want to work on

> my digestive system. The effect is somewhat like salt/c, but without

> the kidney distress. When it breaks down, chlorine dioxide does form

> trace amounts of salt and water. But the most interesting fact about

> this is that chlorine dioxide is used industrially to break down

> biofilms, and that may be one of its effects on the human body. If

> you follow the biofilm topics, this is significant.

>

> DMT is a hallucinogenic chemical produced in the pineal gland, we

> all have some trace amounts of this, or can produce this, and it is

> involved in some endocrine regulation functions.

>

> I just thought of two more interesting quick cure cases for CFS.

>

> A woman who posted to a CFS group a year or two ago claimed that she

> had brain surgery for some type of brain cyst or growth, and one of

> her amygdala had to be removed as part of the surgery (we have two

> of them, one in each hemisphere of the brain). And after recovering

> from the surgery, her CFS vanished. So her fight-flight reaction

> potential would have been cut in half, maybe Gupta is right about

> amygdala involvement in CFS.

>

> Another person posted a few years ago that they went into a coma for

> three months. I don't recall the reason, either an accident or

> illness, but after coming out of the coma, the CFS was also gone.

> This suggests something, but what? Maybe some type of

> desensitization occurred during the coma. Or maybe IV feeding

> allowed the gut to heal?

>

> CFS researchers should be studying cases like this, in fact that is

> how medical researchers study nearly every other illness, they often

> write journal articles about curious cases.

>

> We are basically ignored by mainstream research. I think we need a

> telethon, like Jerry's MD telethons, or something to raise awareness.

>

> --Kurt

>

>

>

" Some men measure their lives by days and years other by love affairs

passions and tears but the truest measure under the Sun is what in

life for others have done? "

[Guest guest]

> Another person posted a few years ago that they went into a coma for three

months. I don't recall the reason, either an accident or illness, but after

coming out of the coma, the CFS was also gone. This suggests something, but

what? Maybe some type of desensitization occurred during the coma. Or maybe IV

feeding allowed the gut to heal?

> --Kurt

This reminded me of reading, probably 20+ years ago, about a 'novel' medical

treatment being used in the USSR back then. They were putting people into coma,

keeping them comatose for extended periods of time. Read this so long ago that

details are forgotten, but I do recall claims of great success/cures for many

conditions. I know this was reported in the mainstream USA press, might've been

something like TIME magazine which I used to read cover to cover back then.

I wonder if this is still being done in today's Russia............

Sharon