Re: Hot Feet: VIT D supplementation

[Guest guest]

Ken

I find that all very interesting. I just increased my Vit D from 2000 IU / D to

4000 IU. I haven't have levels checked though so I'm not real sure how wise it

is to be messing with it. I have Chronic Lyme/ CFIDS/FM, and am for the moment

not very symptomatic.

I am taking 7 gr T3/T4 which seems to be helping my subnormal temperature...it's

more in the 97.7 range rather than 96.4 that it used to be. So I'll keep an eye

on it to see if the Vit D helps. The Temp changed before I started sing the

Vit D.

My question is how many CFIDers are treated for thyroid problems, that can also

cause low body temp?

Diane in MI

[Guest guest]

I don't know how many of us there are, Diane, but I'll be there are a lot. I am

very hypothyroid and have been since long before I was diagnosed with CFS in

1991.

Re: Hot Feet: VIT D supplementation

Ken

I find that all very interesting. I just increased my Vit D from 2000 IU / D

to 4000 IU. I haven't have levels checked though so I'm not real sure how wise

it is to be messing with it. I have Chronic Lyme/ CFIDS/FM, and am for the

moment not very symptomatic.

I am taking 7 gr T3/T4 which seems to be helping my subnormal

temperature...it's more in the 97.7 range rather than 96.4 that it used to be.

So I'll keep an eye on it to see if the Vit D helps. The Temp changed before I

started sing the Vit D.

My question is how many CFIDers are treated for thyroid problems, that can

also cause low body temp?

Diane in MI

[Guest guest]

> OK -- now to get to the why's. What I read was that if there was a

> vitamin D deficiency, then the body's boron reserves are drawn down

to

> compensate.

Hi Ken - What study did you read that showed that? What I've read is

that boron supplementation can offset some of the effects of a vitamin

D deficiency, but I've not found any study that showed that a vitamin D

deficiency could cause either reduced boron levels, or a boron

deficiency. - Mark

[Guest guest]

I am on Vit D supplementation. My Dr. perscribes phosphate as he says

the Vit D can draw that down. I take boron with Calcium to help absorb

that but have reduced calcium since on D.

Gail

Mark London wrote:

>

>

> > OK -- now to get to the why's. What I read was that if there was a

> > vitamin D deficiency, then the body's boron reserves are drawn down

> to

> > compensate.

>

> Hi Ken - What study did you read that showed that? What I've read is

> that boron supplementation can offset some of the effects of a vitamin

> D deficiency, but I've not found any study that showed that a vitamin D

> deficiency could cause either reduced boron levels, or a boron

> deficiency. - Mark

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Mark,

I'm mainly drawing on memory from research 1+ year ago for a lot of

these answers (once I get a model consistent with research I retain the

model and tend to forget the exact details).

Doing a quick search, I could find very little about **causes** of

boron deficiency -- I do see some literature that associate it with pH

issues (but this was in the context of soil).

The Boron-Vitamin-D interaction is illustrated by:

" For instance, vitamin D deficiency causes several metabolic

abnormalities in chickens, including elevated levels of blood glucose

and triglycerides as well as pyruvate--a primary product of glucose

metabolism. Adding boron to the chicks' diets markedly decreased those

elevated levels.

Boron also reduced blood pyruvate levels in vitamin D-deprived rats,

Hunt notes. This could mean that boron increases the rate at which the

rats recycle energy metabolites. Or it could mean that the rats had

less glucose to metabolize, which seemed to be the case.

Now, Hunt is finding in a new series of studies that he can alter a

biochemical indicator of muscle function in exercising rats simply by

changing the level of boron in their diets. " US Gov Publ. Office

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-12999839.html

" The function of boron is unknown, but it may be involved in

metabolism and utilisation of various elements (including calcium,

copper, magnesium), glucose, triglycerides, reactive oxygen and

oestrogen...Other authors have reported that short periods of

restricted boron intake may affect brain function and cognitive

performance in healthy humans. "

http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/evm_boron.pdf

What is interesting is this line of active research

" Dr. Hunt is pursuing the hypothesis that boron prevents inflammatory

diseases including rheumatoid arthritis and asthma. Boron is known to

inhibit the activity of two classes of enzymes directly involved in the

inflammatory process, a normal process that focuses the body's defenses

at a site of injury or infection. Excessive enzyme activity leads to

inflammatory disease. It may be that boron status can influence the

development of inflammatory disease. Dr. Hunt is obtaining information

from animal models to assess the connection between boron deficiency

and debilitating inflammatory disease. His laboratory has found that

dietary boron reduces the incidence and severity of inflammation in

animal models. These findings will be used to test the effects of

dietary boron in persons suffering from rheumatoid arthritis.

Other findings from Dr. Hunt's earlier boron research led him to

conclude that boron is an important regulator of energy metabolism

because he found that dietary boron changes the amounts of glucose,

insulin, and triglyceride present in the blood, especially in the

vitamin D deficient animal. Insulin release is known to be dependent

upon vitamin D. thus, his group is actively studying the complex

interactions among boron, vitamin D, and insulin release. The findings

may further our understanding of the complex diseases such as diabetes.

Because of the importance of boron in animal and human nutrition, it is

reasonable to determine the normal sources of dietary boron. Dr. Hunt

and colleagues recently completed the analysis of boron content of 234

foods known to constitute 80% of the typical American diet. These

analyses confirmed that fruits, vegetables and legumes are major

sources of boron, with peanuts having the highest boron content. This

study also indicated that boron consumption declines nearly four fold

between infancy and adulthood when body weights are taken into account,

a finding that may relate to increased bone disorders with age. "

http://www.med.und.nodak.edu/depts/anatomy/hunt.html

--------- bottom line --- I cannot find any study that ties vitamin D

deficency to reduction of Boron levels. in fact, I cannot find any

studies identifying causes (apart from diet) of boron deficiency.

What I do find is that boron supplementation can reduce symptoms of

vitamin D deficiency --- thus I have jumped to the reasonable

conclusion that some boron will be consumed by this process, and that

the more deficient, the more that will be consumed. Hunt's work found a

75% reduction of boron consumption as people age, thus the impact of

Vitamin D deficiency will increase(because of declining boron levels).

-- we do not have adequate studies or knowledge of Boron. We do know

that boron and vitamin D both reduces inflammation and improve many

things that CFIDSers tend to have troubling them...

> Hi Ken - What study did you read that showed that? What I've read is

> that boron supplementation can offset some of the effects of a

vitamin

> D deficiency, but I've not found any study that showed that a vitamin

D

> deficiency could cause either reduced boron levels, or a boron

> deficiency. - Mark

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Ken

Thanks for your answer. Could it also be that it is improving circulation

due to anti-coagulant effect of it?

best wishes.

Nil

Hot Feet: VIT D supplementation

> What got me looking hard at Vitamin D was seeing a CFIDSer with the

> typical below normal temperature run a 103F temperature for ~4 hrs

> every time they took a 400IU dosage (at the start). The below normal

> temperature is such a trademark of CFIDS that seeing something change

> it was unexpected (I've read many studies of various attempts to

> increase it -- none really successful), and VERY INTERESTING. In terms

> of the infections, a change of body temperature range usually inhibits

>

[Guest guest]

Nil,

When I starting taking Vit D a couple of yrs ago the first thing I

noticed was my rise in body temperature; I need very little layering

clothing in the winter months in -30C temps.

I no longer feel " chilled " in air conditioning either.

I'm going for a thyroid test next week to see how that's working now.

Nat

[Guest guest]

Technically it could. But from our experience, the individual did not

experience this from a wide range of anticoagulants (including heparin)

that they were taking. In this specific case, it seems best to ascribe

it to a change of the immune system functioning.

>

> Hi Ken

> Thanks for your answer. Could it also be that it is improving

circulation

> due to anti-coagulant effect of it?

> best wishes.

> Nil

[Guest guest]

Ken

Thanks.What do you think of using injectable D3?

Best wishes.

Nil

Re: Hot Feet: VIT D supplementation

> Technically it could. But from our experience, the individual did not

> experience this from a wide range of anticoagulants (including heparin)

> that they were taking. In this specific case, it seems best to ascribe

> it to a change of the immune system functioning.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Ken - In this study on boron, it indicates that boron storage

doesn't significantly occur in the body's tissues, and that the main

factors that control circulating boron levels are diet and urinary

excretion. " The investigators also concluded that the day-to-day

variations in boron excretion in the urine reflect the simultaneous

alimentary intake. They found no tendency for boron to accumulate,

even in deep compartments. "

http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/60/2/252

- Mark

>

> Hi Mark,

> I'm mainly drawing on memory from research 1+ year ago for a lot

of

> these answers (once I get a model consistent with research I retain

the

> model and tend to forget the exact details).

>

> Doing a quick search, I could find very little about **causes** of

> boron deficiency -- I do see some literature that associate it with

pH

> issues (but this was in the context of soil).

>

> The Boron-Vitamin-D interaction is illustrated by:

>

> " For instance, vitamin D deficiency causes several metabolic

> abnormalities in chickens, including elevated levels of blood

glucose

> and triglycerides as well as pyruvate--a primary product of glucose

> metabolism. Adding boron to the chicks' diets markedly decreased

those

> elevated levels.

>

> Boron also reduced blood pyruvate levels in vitamin D-deprived

rats,

> Hunt notes. This could mean that boron increases the rate at which

the

> rats recycle energy metabolites. Or it could mean that the rats had

> less glucose to metabolize, which seemed to be the case.

>

> Now, Hunt is finding in a new series of studies that he can alter a

> biochemical indicator of muscle function in exercising rats simply

by

> changing the level of boron in their diets. " US Gov Publ. Office

> http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-12999839.html

>

> " The function of boron is unknown, but it may be involved in

> metabolism and utilisation of various elements (including calcium,

> copper, magnesium), glucose, triglycerides, reactive oxygen and

> oestrogen...Other authors have reported that short periods of

> restricted boron intake may affect brain function and cognitive

> performance in healthy humans. "

> http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/evm_boron.pdf

>

> What is interesting is this line of active research

> " Dr. Hunt is pursuing the hypothesis that boron prevents

inflammatory

> diseases including rheumatoid arthritis and asthma. Boron is known

to

> inhibit the activity of two classes of enzymes directly involved in

the

> inflammatory process, a normal process that focuses the body's

defenses

> at a site of injury or infection. Excessive enzyme activity leads

to

> inflammatory disease. It may be that boron status can influence the

> development of inflammatory disease. Dr. Hunt is obtaining

information

> from animal models to assess the connection between boron

deficiency

> and debilitating inflammatory disease. His laboratory has found

that

> dietary boron reduces the incidence and severity of inflammation in

> animal models. These findings will be used to test the effects of

> dietary boron in persons suffering from rheumatoid arthritis.

>

> Other findings from Dr. Hunt's earlier boron research led him to

> conclude that boron is an important regulator of energy metabolism

> because he found that dietary boron changes the amounts of glucose,

> insulin, and triglyceride present in the blood, especially in the

> vitamin D deficient animal. Insulin release is known to be

dependent

> upon vitamin D. thus, his group is actively studying the complex

> interactions among boron, vitamin D, and insulin release. The

findings

> may further our understanding of the complex diseases such as

diabetes.

>

> Because of the importance of boron in animal and human nutrition,

it is

> reasonable to determine the normal sources of dietary boron. Dr.

Hunt

> and colleagues recently completed the analysis of boron content of

234

> foods known to constitute 80% of the typical American diet. These

> analyses confirmed that fruits, vegetables and legumes are major

> sources of boron, with peanuts having the highest boron content.

This

> study also indicated that boron consumption declines nearly four

fold

> between infancy and adulthood when body weights are taken into

account,

> a finding that may relate to increased bone disorders with age. "

> http://www.med.und.nodak.edu/depts/anatomy/hunt.html

>

> --------- bottom line --- I cannot find any study that ties vitamin

D

> deficency to reduction of Boron levels. in fact, I cannot find any

> studies identifying causes (apart from diet) of boron deficiency.

> What I do find is that boron supplementation can reduce symptoms of

> vitamin D deficiency --- thus I have jumped to the reasonable

> conclusion that some boron will be consumed by this process, and

that

> the more deficient, the more that will be consumed. Hunt's work

found a

> 75% reduction of boron consumption as people age, thus the impact

of

> Vitamin D deficiency will increase(because of declining boron

levels).

>

> -- we do not have adequate studies or knowledge of Boron. We do

know

> that boron and vitamin D both reduces inflammation and improve many

> things that CFIDSers tend to have troubling them...

>

> > Hi Ken - What study did you read that showed that? What I've

read is

> > that boron supplementation can offset some of the effects of a

> vitamin

> > D deficiency, but I've not found any study that showed that a

vitamin

> D

> > deficiency could cause either reduced boron levels, or a boron

> > deficiency. - Mark

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Ken - That study did not conclude that boron was a factor in

temperature regulation via the adrenals. Instead, the study

concluded that: " In Exp. 1, rectal temperature remained elevated

until 6 h after injection in pigs that consumed B-supplemented diets

and received LPS. This effect may be related to the increase in serum

TNF-alpha concentrations by dietary B in this experiment. "

I can't find any study that shows that boron is used by the adrenals.

- Mark

> >

> > Hi all

> >

> > Excuse my ignorance but vit D helps my cold feet to get warmer.

Could

> > someone explain me which effect of it is causing that?

> > thanks.

> > Nil

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi Ken - In this study on boron, it indicates that boron storage

> doesn't significantly occur in the body's tissues, and that the main

> factors that control circulating boron levels are diet and urinary

> excretion. " The investigators also concluded that the day-to-day

> variations in boron excretion in the urine reflect the simultaneous

> alimentary intake. They found no tendency for boron to accumulate,

> even in deep compartments. "

>

> http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/60/2/252

>

> - Mark

Agreed, but the citation also indicate that adult intake of boron

appears to be 25% of that of children, and wil the digestive issues of

CFIDS folk, it may be significantly lower since boron solubility is pH

sensitive. The other factor is 'circulating' -- which is a familar

issue to CFIDS folks, many of us have negative results to infection

circulating, but positive results to infection is tissue or even in

bone marrow. To me, a more interesting study would be one that identify

what tissues in the body has higher boron concentrations than that

circulating, i.e. where boron is used. It is those tissues that are of

real interest, as well of studies of boron levels seen in CFIDS

patients.

I do find problems with the study above, " Hence, 24-h creatinine

excretion of > 10.5 mg/kg was considered to represent an adequate

collection. Individuals with low 24-h. creatinine clearances and urine

creatinine excretions of < 7 mg/kg/day (C-011, C-013) were excluded

from the calculations. They were thought to have submitted an

undercollection of urine. " suggests that they were looking for a

specific result and filtering their data to that goal -- especially

since U.S. Borax, Inc., was paying for the study.

[Guest guest]

> I can't find any study that shows that boron is used by the

adrenals.

>

> - Mark

I did find that it accumulates in the adrenal (at least in animals):

" Liver, lymph node, adrenal, and kidney tissues accumulated the

highest levels of boron, with very low levels associated with most

tissues of the head. "

Tibbitts J, Sambol NC, Fike JR, Bauer WF, Kahl SB. Plasma

pharmacokinetics and tissue biodistribution of boron following

administration of a boronated porphyrin in dogs. J Pharm Sci. 2000

Apr;89(4):469-77. (other citations are available, i.e. for rats).

So the question is why is there a higher concentration there? Without

studies examining adrenal boron levels with adrenal functions, we are

forced to speculate. My inference is that there is a higher

concentration because these tissues use boron in some manner, a

reasonable inference (IMHO).

As a FYI:

http://www.pharmacistelink.com/naturalmedicine/resource/3docs/Resource

s/CBC-SMAC.pdf

Associates Boron Deficiency with malabsorption, IBS etc.

[Guest guest]

No experience, no feelings --- my two concerns are:

- cost versus oral

- experience with Vitamin D causing initial herx-like reactions at low

dosages, hence a bit of dread at a megadose being injected.

>

> Ken

>

> Thanks.What do you think of using injectable D3?

> Best wishes.

> Nil