Re: Re: Antibiotics and Leaky Gut

[Guest guest]

Yes a. This is something that I really don't understand and that I realized

myself as well. There is a protocol for Crohn's disease whcih uses Flagyl and

Cipro, and they are both antibiotics. But with Crohn's disease you are supposed

to have VERY VERY delicate gut walls. Therefore what's the idea behind it? Is it

maybe that they presume you go on forever with the antibiotics, maybe in low

doses?

I should ask a Crohn's disease specialist about this, but what's your opinion?

Thanks for being there always supporting and replying, I appreciate a lot your

committment to other's health.

Massimo

Re: Antibiotics and Leaky Gut

Massimo,

There is increasing research showing that irritable bowel syndrome and

Crohn's disease are both caused by bacteria. This is much like ulcers.

Do some antibiotics make things worse or cause bowel problems?

Certainly. I think the solution is to find the correct antibiotic for

the infection AND to take a good yogurt with 4 live bacteria cultures,

not just one. This kind of product may be hard to find.

a Carnes

E. coli highly prevalent in IBD tissues

13 October 2006

Gut 2006: Advance online publication

Patients with inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) have about three to

four times as many bacteria of the Enterobacteriaceae family in their

gut tissues as do individuals without the disease, scientists reveal.

Chronic inflammatory diseases such as Crohn's disease (CD) and

ulcerative colitis (UC) are thought to be due to recognition of

microbial bacteria by a dysfunctional immune system, the researchers

write in an advance online publication by the journal Gut.

Which bacteria are implicated in IBD is unclear at present, they note,

stressing that " specific bacteria may have been missed because not

more than 30% of the microbial diversity of the gut can be cultured. "

To overcome this problem, Denis Krause and colleagues, from the

University of Manitoba in Canada, used a culture-independent method to

examine bacterial DNA bands in 84 biopsy samples from 13 patients with

CD, 19 with UC, and 15 healthy controls.

Ribosomal intergenic spacer analysis showed that there were about 450

base pairs that were consistently present in about 70% of patients but

in less than 30% of controls.

Five bands from the IBD samples were sequenced and found to be

Escherichia coli.

Emphasizing that, " wherever possible, microorganisms identified using

culture-independent methodsS should be cultured so that their

virulence mechanisms can be evaluated, " the team grew bacteria from

over 90% of the biopsies.

These cultures showed that purple colonies indicative of E. coli were

present in 69% of CD patients and 63% of UC patients, compared with

only 47% of controls, while non-E. coli colonies could be cultured

from most samples.

Further investigations indicated that the most virulent strains of E.

coli

(B2 + D) were present in significantly greater concentrations in

samples from CD and UC patients than from controls, at 8 and 11 units

versus 4 units, respectively.

Serine protease autotransporter proteins and adherence factors, which

may be involved in promoting inflammation, were also significantly

more prevalent among tissues from CD and UC patients than among those

from controls.

Reflecting on their findings, Krause et al say: " What we do not know

at this point is whether the increase in certain types of E. coli in

IBD is a consequence of inflammation, or the cause. "

They continue: " One way forward is to describe the E. coli population

before inflammation sets in, for example, obtain biopsy tissue that

ranges along the colon, distal and proximal to UC lesions. "

>

> One important question: many of us suffer for Leaky gut syndrome.

Nevertheless, among the suggested protocols for CFS, even when lacking

of any visible evidence of present bacterias, there is the antibiotic

treatment.

>

> The literature all over Internet says that among the causes of a

leaky gut there is the use of antibiotics....

>

> It's a vortex...

>

> What to do then? Is it a matter of choosing the least bad effect?

>

> Massimo

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear a,

yes, definitely we have to find first the underlying infection if any, and then

the right antibiotic to cure it. The thing is that not always is a bacteria

causing our symptoms, it might also be a virus, metals, micosys, etc...

Some people put together CFS/ME and autism, as far as some symptoms are

concerned. They believe that some problems are related to vaccines or other

medicines which are supposed to help... but it is still everything so uncertain.

What is sure is that at times some treatments could be more harmful than

beneficial, and that's why I don't really know what to do.

Prof. De Meirleir told me I have intestinal disbiosys probably due to fructose

malabsorbtion which activated the elastase, and by doing so it caused a fall in

the immune defenses, letting some viruses reactivate in my body (from here the

Rnase L activated, even if the LMW is within range).

Talk to you soon,

Massimo

Re: Antibiotics and Leaky Gut

Massimo,

There is increasing research showing that irritable bowel syndrome and

Crohn's disease are both caused by bacteria. This is much like ulcers.

Do some antibiotics make things worse or cause bowel problems?

Certainly. I think the solution is to find the correct antibiotic for

the infection AND to take a good yogurt with 4 live bacteria cultures,

not just one. This kind of product may be hard to find.

a Carnes

E. coli highly prevalent in IBD tissues

13 October 2006

Gut 2006: Advance online publication

Patients with inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) have about three to

four times as many bacteria of the Enterobacteriaceae family in their

gut tissues as do individuals without the disease, scientists reveal.

Chronic inflammatory diseases such as Crohn's disease (CD) and

ulcerative colitis (UC) are thought to be due to recognition of

microbial bacteria by a dysfunctional immune system, the researchers

write in an advance online publication by the journal Gut.

Which bacteria are implicated in IBD is unclear at present, they note,

stressing that " specific bacteria may have been missed because not

more than 30% of the microbial diversity of the gut can be cultured. "

To overcome this problem, Denis Krause and colleagues, from the

University of Manitoba in Canada, used a culture-independent method to

examine bacterial DNA bands in 84 biopsy samples from 13 patients with

CD, 19 with UC, and 15 healthy controls.

Ribosomal intergenic spacer analysis showed that there were about 450

base pairs that were consistently present in about 70% of patients but

in less than 30% of controls.

Five bands from the IBD samples were sequenced and found to be

Escherichia coli.

Emphasizing that, " wherever possible, microorganisms identified using

culture-independent methodsS should be cultured so that their

virulence mechanisms can be evaluated, " the team grew bacteria from

over 90% of the biopsies.

These cultures showed that purple colonies indicative of E. coli were

present in 69% of CD patients and 63% of UC patients, compared with

only 47% of controls, while non-E. coli colonies could be cultured

from most samples.

Further investigations indicated that the most virulent strains of E.

coli

(B2 + D) were present in significantly greater concentrations in

samples from CD and UC patients than from controls, at 8 and 11 units

versus 4 units, respectively.

Serine protease autotransporter proteins and adherence factors, which

may be involved in promoting inflammation, were also significantly

more prevalent among tissues from CD and UC patients than among those

from controls.

Reflecting on their findings, Krause et al say: " What we do not know

at this point is whether the increase in certain types of E. coli in

IBD is a consequence of inflammation, or the cause. "

They continue: " One way forward is to describe the E. coli population

before inflammation sets in, for example, obtain biopsy tissue that

ranges along the colon, distal and proximal to UC lesions. "

>

> One important question: many of us suffer for Leaky gut syndrome.

Nevertheless, among the suggested protocols for CFS, even when lacking

of any visible evidence of present bacterias, there is the antibiotic

treatment.

>

> The literature all over Internet says that among the causes of a

leaky gut there is the use of antibiotics....

>

> It's a vortex...

>

> What to do then? Is it a matter of choosing the least bad effect?

>

> Massimo

>

>