Re: Cheney & Hyperbaric (HBOT)

[Guest guest]

With all due respect, while Dr. Cheney has been a hero to many with CFIDS, we

have to

remember he's not a God -- he's just a human being. He has had many many

theories

over the years, and yet even he admits not a single patient of his has

recovered. He also

became so desperately ill himself that he needed a heart transplant.

He's a great man, he's been a great advocate for PWC's, but he's just human.

Just my two cents.

Dan

> Hi all,

>

> I have recently acquired a home hyperbaric chamber (either for a couple of

months or

> permanently) and I'm beginning to use it but finding the whole experience

pretty

> claustrophobic/weird/difficult. I would love to hear any *updates* from people

who have

> done HBOT -- either short-term or long-term -- especially those with severe

CFIDS and

> CFIDS with accompanying MCS. Any information on protocols that worked, etc.,

would

also

> be helpful. The reason I decided to try HBOT finally is that I had a

significant carbon

> monoxide poisoning incident over a year ago, and then, this past August, I had

an

episode of

> methemoglobinemia (blackish blood) from a pesticide exposure. Since HBOT is a

standard

> treatment for both of these, and since my CFIDS is so bad at this point, I

decided to give

it a

> go.

>

> Any information would be appreciated.

>

> Peggy

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Sponsored Link

>

> Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - $150,000 loan for $579 a month. Intro-*Terms

>

>

[Guest guest]

" kdrbrill " wrote:

> With all due respect, while Dr. Cheney has been a hero to many

with CFIDS, we have to remember he's not a God -- he's just a human

being. He has had many many theories over the years, and yet even

he admits not a single patient of his has recovered. He also became

so desperately ill himself that he needed a heart transplant.

> He's a great man, he's been a great advocate for PWC's, but he's

just human.

> Dan

Dr Cheney was the first doctor I saw during the Incline Village

epidemic. Unfortunately, I was one of the people who was so early

that he hadn't yet recognized that we were all telling the same

story. Yet at no time did he never once question that I was

anything but seriously physically sick.

So after finding out that he didn't recognize my illness and

couldn't help me - I left and went through about a dozen more.

Unlike Dr Cheney, virtually all of these others ran their same

basic panel, found nothing, and diagnosed me with mental illness.

It was clear from the start that Dr Cheney was unlike all these

other doctors.

He has proposed a great many theories, but have any of them turned

out to be wrong? Or are they just one small bit of the puzzle?

Dr Cheney was always very scientific and careful not to overstep

his observations. The way his work is presented piecemeal gives the

impression that he's jumping around from one concept to another.

But as far as I can tell, each bit that he has identified has

withstood the test of time and still fits.

The puzzle just isn't complete yet.

-

[Guest guest]

On 11/21/06, erikmoldwarrior <erikmoldwarrior@...> wrote:

> The way his work is presented piecemeal gives the

> impression that he's jumping around from one concept to another.

> But as far as I can tell, each bit that he has identified has

> withstood the test of time and still fits.

> The puzzle just isn't complete yet.

> -

From what I see so far ( last 2 years of DFW vids) I agree. Last

year, it was diastolic heart disease due to 'some sort of energy

problem' and how many CFS symptoms could proceed from that (or from

the body's attempts to compensate for it). This year he's fleshed in

what he thinks the energy issue is - that something is wrong in the

handling of SuperOxide or Hydrogen Peroxide produced as by-products in

energy production, so the body compensates for *that* by reducing

energy production - which then leads to the heart issues.

I think he's on a roll. But the real issue is - are the patients

getting better?

Cheney showed slides indicated improvements in some functions, with

Hawthorn or with Hawthorn and Nexavir.

Me, I'm trying several things that sound they it willl induce more

Super Oxide Dismutase and Catalase, based on Cheney's 2006 DFW vids.

- Bob Niederman

[Guest guest]

Dan,

When a long term educated ME/CFIDS patient alerts another long term very severe

ME/CFIDS patient to dangers of a treatment/procedure that have been observed by

2 of the longest term CFIDS Specialists of the world, it seems like a strange

time to jump in with the fact that someone is just a (good) human full of

" theories " (which you more than imply have been incorrect or failed).

This list is very mixed and includes many people who do NOT have actual

" original " ME/CFIDS. For those who do and are severe or very long term, we are

dealing with both very severe relapse risk, and increasingly life threatening

stages of ME/CFIDS.

Read Helen and 's posts. I too am unaware of much or any of Dr. Cheney's

work that has proven flat-out wrong for this specific population...no matter

what non-medical persons' opinions say.

The current Cardiac work is not simply " theory " . It is a malfunction of the

heart that is measurable on at least 2 different AMA/Hospital/Cardiology

approved Cardiac machines. The basic problem was first found by Dr. Peckerman,

and in an NIH funded study. The result also predict the level of Disability in

the patient. This is actually why the funding was granted in the first place.

Because a tangible organic measurement of Disability in ME/CFIDS had not

previously existed, and has major implications for patients, Insurance

companies, benefits, and management of the illness.

Especially crucial at this time of limited health options..and when Psychiatric

" theories " re ME/CFS are growing which place at the top of treatment advice CBT

and GET (Graded Aerobic Exercise, which can and has severly damaged some

patients and can even kill others).

If you listen to the lectures, and pay attention to posts such as Helen's and

other Cheney patients, you will find that the Cardiac changes are directly

observable with the naked eye on a screen, and from the numbers from the

machines.

The PFO also is not a " theory " . It is an established structural Cardiac

abnormality also found in non-ME/CFIDS persons. It came to the attention of Dr.

Cheney only because of the experience of one of his patients of having surgery

to correct it.

Because of his adverse results, Dr. Cheney began to look further into it and

test for it in his ME/CFIDS patients.

(You can find the account in the archives here, by Carol Sieverling, or on the

website of the Dallas Fort Worth CFIDS Support group).

The blood can be seen swooshing through the hole into the other side of the

heart.

As for Dr. Cheney developing Heart Failure to the point of a transplant...

You or others may view this only as some cynical thing, further calling into

question his work (and evidence that he IS in fact human, for god's sake).

What you are missing, and others find extremely valuable, is that he is now able

to include his further extensive study of the heart, and 1st hand experience of

the very specific effects on ALL systems of the body, as a result of having a

failing heart. And the slow, implemental restoration of ALL body systems, from

correcting it.

Not to mention: How close we came to losing one of the World's top and few

Doctors with long term ME/CFIDS clinical experience; the good fortune that he

survived and returned to practice; and therefore, the added excitement and

knowledge he would bring to his work on our disease...something very rare, and

not being picked up on or funded by new and younger Scientists. (we have, are,

and will be losing the other World's Specialists, also, so time is of the

essence in learning what they have discovered, and showcasing it, as the rest of

the profession is brainwashed and dominated by false or no education, the void

of which is being filled with psych, stress, gene theories to be treated by the

easy, quick, absurd methods such as CBT/GET).

The cynicism, with a little hope, on my part, is that with all body systems

affected, with increasing complications, and universal environmental

destruction, many other fields of medicine are becoming more relevant to us. Tho

some of those also are not accessible to us, there are many advances ocurring

(my favorite is in repair of neurodegeneration).

Having the disease for so long without proper intervention, and much IMproper

intervention, means that I and others NOW have multiple and measurable

abnormalities in numerous systems which do get the concern and attention of our

doctors.

Having begun with " nothing wrong " or nothing measurable in tests administered.

But is is a mammoth and unwieldy bunch of scary things to now be managing, and

praying for the care of. And without anyone being educated on the central

underlying ME/CFIDS illness and all of it's risks when under " standard " medical

care.

As for Dr. Cheney, or other Specialists " not curing " anyone with ME/CFIDS. Well,

has Cancer been cured? ALS? MS? AIDS? No. Would that be a reason not to listen

to the World's and the patients' top Specialists in those diseases? Or to study

or fund their research?

We are talking about dedicated Researchers are studying, treating and advancing

the work on, thus far, INCURABLE diseases. Particularly, as in ME/CFS/CFIDS,

when not receiving correct care in the earliest days.

About certain treatments, and having the education to understand their long term

effects on patients...Look at Polio. It has been declared irradicated. Children

with a mild form were declared recovered. Now, as adults, and *because* of the

" treatment " they were given and management they were advised to do...people with

Post Polio Syndrome are on crutches, in wheelchairs, bedridden, or dying...from

the very disease. There are some distinct parallels to our disease, as in the

damage of exercise.

Many of us face the same situation. Whether from Drugs we have taken that made

us more functional, or from incorrect directions, guessing, or non ME/CFIDS

persons' " theories " , or simply no care at all... a great deal of damage is done

that will make the rest of life un-neccesarily painful and difficult...and/or

*short*.

No, no one is God. Every discovery and treatment will not work for every person.

Only parts of the jig saw, of the most complicated, and possibly most

debilitating, disease in Earth, may be known yet.

But it is those who have specialized in it from the beginning, Dr. Cheney AND

others, whose work, as a whole, I would defer to above anyone else on Earth, or

anyone on this list.

For those on this list, not meaning Dan, only, who continously minimise,

dispute, and detract from them, you have no idea what actual destruction plus

demoralization this causes

for those who do have the *specific* disease that they are addressing. There is

now a large body of research about us (2000 papers? and more unpublished) that

if respected, compiled, showcased and *funded*, would be healing and saving

many from needless suffering and indignities, and even saving Life itself.

There is and always has been highly sophisticated and orchestrated maneuvers to

obscure the truths about ME/CFS, whether for the purposes of Insurance

companies, or others, including the well-meaning or or brainwashed (now

including patients).

For those who are very ill of the 2000? on this list (many who can only read,

not post), please keep these things in mind as we explore and evavaluate what to

do to function and feel better on a daily, and especially long term basis.

For the minimising and detractors of the World's ME/CFIDS specialists, at least

make sure you have thorougly studied their ongoing and *current* work before

pronouncements to the list, and consider the effects on the most severe, and

those trying not to become so.

There is such a wealth of intelligence and knowledge here on so many areas of

health that may be relevant to ME/CFS...there are also, many veterans of ME/CFS

treatments and survival...but we also have to remember that that THIS LIST

contains multiple " theories "

by NON-ME/CFIDS Specialist people ( And " intellect " has nothing to do with their

validity.)

How frustrating it is that we have so little access to what is known about US,

and so little recognition/exploration when it IS presented to us. That it may

just fly by as just another " theory " , in the same or even lesser category as

others.(Even those about generic Fukuda/fatigue, NOT about ME/CFS).

No one has to agree, yes, no one is God/perfect/puzzle solved, and we have free

will to experiemnt with anything we want to. Just some things to consider.

Katrina

> > Hi all,

> >

> > I have recently acquired a home hyperbaric chamber (either for a couple of

months or

> > permanently) and I'm beginning to use it but finding the whole experience

pretty

> > claustrophobic/weird/difficult. I would love to hear any *updates* from

people who have

> > done HBOT -- either short-term or long-term -- especially those with severe

CFIDS and

> > CFIDS with accompanying MCS. Any information on protocols that worked, etc.,

would

> also

> > be helpful. The reason I decided to try HBOT finally is that I had a

significant carbon

> > monoxide poisoning incident over a year ago, and then, this past August, I

had an

> episode of

> > methemoglobinemia (blackish blood) from a pesticide exposure. Since HBOT is

a

> standard

> > treatment for both of these, and since my CFIDS is so bad at this point, I

decided to give

> it a

> > go.

> >

> > Any information would be appreciated.

> >

> > Peggy

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Sponsored Link

> >

> > Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - $150,000 loan for $579 a month.

Intro-*Terms

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Bob,

Are you feeling better with what you are using ?? Couldn't your just

supplement SOD??

Janet

bob niederman <bobn1955@...> wrote:

On 11/21/06, erikmoldwarrior <erikmoldwarrior@...> wrote:

> The way his work is presented piecemeal gives the

> impression that he's jumping around from one concept to another.

> But as far as I can tell, each bit that he has identified has

> withstood the test of time and still fits.

> The puzzle just isn't complete yet.

> -

From what I see so far ( last 2 years of DFW vids) I agree. Last

year, it was diastolic heart disease due to 'some sort of energy

problem' and how many CFS symptoms could proceed from that (or from

the body's attempts to compensate for it). This year he's fleshed in

what he thinks the energy issue is - that something is wrong in the

handling of SuperOxide or Hydrogen Peroxide produced as by-products in

energy production, so the body compensates for *that* by reducing

energy production - which then leads to the heart issues.

I think he's on a roll. But the real issue is - are the patients

getting better?

Cheney showed slides indicated improvements in some functions, with

Hawthorn or with Hawthorn and Nexavir.

Me, I'm trying several things that sound they it willl induce more

Super Oxide Dismutase and Catalase, based on Cheney's 2006 DFW vids.

- Bob Niederman

[Guest guest]

Janet,

Dr. Cheney did tell me that the THREE elements, SOD, Glutathione, and Catalese

are need for the Mitochondria, providing energy to the heart, to function

properly.

It sounds like Bob also heard that on the DVD.

There is no Catalese pill, so I've been exploring what else to do.

Katrina

-- In , Janet s <jgstev716@...> wrote:

>

> Bob,

>

> Are you feeling better with what you are using ?? Couldn't your just

supplement SOD??

>

> Janet

>

> bob niederman <bobn1955@...> wrote:

> On 11/21/06, erikmoldwarrior <erikmoldwarrior@...> wrote:

> > The way his work is presented piecemeal gives the

> > impression that he's jumping around from one concept to another.

> > But as far as I can tell, each bit that he has identified has

> > withstood the test of time and still fits.

> > The puzzle just isn't complete yet.

> > -

>

> From what I see so far ( last 2 years of DFW vids) I agree. Last

> year, it was diastolic heart disease due to 'some sort of energy

> problem' and how many CFS symptoms could proceed from that (or from

> the body's attempts to compensate for it). This year he's fleshed in

> what he thinks the energy issue is - that something is wrong in the

> handling of SuperOxide or Hydrogen Peroxide produced as by-products in

> energy production, so the body compensates for *that* by reducing

> energy production - which then leads to the heart issues.

>

> I think he's on a roll. But the real issue is - are the patients

> getting better?

>

> Cheney showed slides indicated improvements in some functions, with

> Hawthorn or with Hawthorn and Nexavir.

>

> Me, I'm trying several things that sound they it willl induce more

> Super Oxide Dismutase and Catalase, based on Cheney's 2006 DFW vids.

>

> - Bob Niederman

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Katrina

Speaking of apples...... malic acid/Mg malate found in apple skins raises

ATP. My rheumatologist prescribed this along with Mg for me in 1999.

mjh

" The Basil Book "

_http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/_ (http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/)

Posted by: " kattemayo " _kattemayo@... _

(mailto:kattemayo@...?Subject= Re:%20Cheney%20 & %20Hyperbaric%20(HBOT))

_kattemayo _

(kattemayo)

Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:06 am (PST)

Janet,

When I first became ill, with no idea what it was, SOD was one of the first

things I decided to take, and did so for several years. Too bad I stopped for

many more years!

About raising Catalese, or precursers, I've been looking into Apple

Polyphenols. The few studies I've seen are really intriguing, so I bought a

product

that contains them. I found a forum of pretty savvy sounding people who are

trying to raise catalese because of hair loss! They also spoke of the

polyphenol research.

I haven't talked about this, because it truly is an experiment, and not one

suggested by *anyone* connected to ME/CFIDS or my doctors. It might just be a

fad, but so far, I like the sound of it .

Katrina

[Guest guest]

Bob;

What are the several things, please?

Thanks,

Adrienne

Me, I'm trying several things that sound they it willl induce more

Super Oxide Dismutase and Catalase, based on Cheney's 2006 DFW vids.

- Bob Niederman

[Guest guest]

Kat,

I have my genovations detox profile in front of me. I have a mutation in my

SOD SNP. I can still supplement that. So that leaves glutathione which can be

supplemented directly or via the Yakso method, depending on genetics. So that

leaves Catalese. Is their a test that will measure that in the body?? What in

the body helps to make Catalese??

Janet

kattemayo <kattemayo@...> wrote:

Janet,

Dr. Cheney did tell me that the THREE elements, SOD, Glutathione, and Catalese

are need for the Mitochondria, providing energy to the heart, to function

properly.

It sounds like Bob also heard that on the DVD.

There is no Catalese pill, so I've been exploring what else to do.

Katrina

-- In , Janet s <jgstev716@...> wrote:

>

> Bob,

>

> Are you feeling better with what you are using ?? Couldn't your just

supplement SOD??

>

> Janet

>

> bob niederman <bobn1955@...> wrote:

> On 11/21/06, erikmoldwarrior <erikmoldwarrior@...> wrote:

> > The way his work is presented piecemeal gives the

> > impression that he's jumping around from one concept to another.

> > But as far as I can tell, each bit that he has identified has

> > withstood the test of time and still fits.

> > The puzzle just isn't complete yet.

> > -

>

> From what I see so far ( last 2 years of DFW vids) I agree. Last

> year, it was diastolic heart disease due to 'some sort of energy

> problem' and how many CFS symptoms could proceed from that (or from

> the body's attempts to compensate for it). This year he's fleshed in

> what he thinks the energy issue is - that something is wrong in the

> handling of SuperOxide or Hydrogen Peroxide produced as by-products in

> energy production, so the body compensates for *that* by reducing

> energy production - which then leads to the heart issues.

>

> I think he's on a roll. But the real issue is - are the patients

> getting better?

>

> Cheney showed slides indicated improvements in some functions, with

> Hawthorn or with Hawthorn and Nexavir.

>

> Me, I'm trying several things that sound they it willl induce more

> Super Oxide Dismutase and Catalase, based on Cheney's 2006 DFW vids.

>

> - Bob Niederman

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Janet,

When I first became ill, with no idea what it was, SOD was one of the first

things I decided to take, and did so for several years. Too bad I stopped for

many more years!

About raising Catalese, or precursers, I've been looking into Apple Polyphenols.

The few studies I've seen are really intriguing, so I bought a product that

contains them. I found a forum of pretty savvy sounding people who are trying to

raise catalese because of hair loss! They also spoke of the polyphenol research.

I haven't talked about this, because it truly is an experiment, and not one

suggested by *anyone* connected to ME/CFIDS or my doctors. It might just be a

fad, but so far, I like the sound of it .

Katrina

> > > The way his work is presented piecemeal gives the

> > > impression that he's jumping around from one concept to another.

> > > But as far as I can tell, each bit that he has identified has

> > > withstood the test of time and still fits.

> > > The puzzle just isn't complete yet.

> > > -

> >

> > From what I see so far ( last 2 years of DFW vids) I agree. Last

> > year, it was diastolic heart disease due to 'some sort of energy

> > problem' and how many CFS symptoms could proceed from that (or from

> > the body's attempts to compensate for it). This year he's fleshed in

> > what he thinks the energy issue is - that something is wrong in the

> > handling of SuperOxide or Hydrogen Peroxide produced as by-products in

> > energy production, so the body compensates for *that* by reducing

> > energy production - which then leads to the heart issues.

> >

> > I think he's on a roll. But the real issue is - are the patients

> > getting better?

> >

> > Cheney showed slides indicated improvements in some functions, with

> > Hawthorn or with Hawthorn and Nexavir.

> >

> > Me, I'm trying several things that sound they it willl induce more

> > Super Oxide Dismutase and Catalase, based on Cheney's 2006 DFW vids.

> >

> > - Bob Niederman

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I make no money form sales of any of these products.

On 11/22/06, bob niederman <bobn1955@...> wrote:

>

> Janet,

>

> I'm not convinced that supplemnting SOD gets it into the mitochondria,

> where much of the action is - but it might get it to other places where it

> would be helpful, so I'm doing that.

>

> I have recently started using Hawthorn extract and grape seed extract

> (about 1.5 weeks). I think it is helping some of the tiredness I have

> mentally. It doesn't seem to have done much for physical stamina however.

>

> I just yesterday started a product called protandim ( www.protandim.com)

> which claims to increase both SOD and catalase. Also going to start using

> some thing from http://www.applepolyphenols.com/ - they quote research

> that indicates it may be good for catalase induction.

>

> On 11/21/06, Janet s <jgstev716@...> wrote:

> >

> > Bob,

> >

> > Are you feeling better with what you are using ?? Couldn't your just

> > supplement SOD??

> >

> > Janet

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Janet,

I'm not convinced that supplemnting SOD gets it into the mitochondria, where

much of the action is - but it might get it to other places where it would

be helpful, so I'm doing that.

I have recently started using Hawthorn extract and grape seed extract (about

1.5 weeks). I think it is helping some of the tiredness I have mentally.

It doesn't seem to have done much for physical stamina however.

I just yesterday started a product called protandim (www.protandim.com)

which claims to increase both SOD and catalase. Also going to start using

some thing from http://www.applepolyphenols.com/ - they quote research that

indicates it may be good for catalase induction.

On 11/21/06, Janet s <jgstev716@...> wrote:

>

> Bob,

>

> Are you feeling better with what you are using ?? Couldn't your just

> supplement SOD??

>

> Janet

>

>

[Guest guest]

Janet:

Cheney told me that Nexavir works on the catalase. It's a new form of

Kutapressin, basically. Available by injection or a gel.

Regards,

Helen

> > > The way his work is presented piecemeal gives the

> > > impression that he's jumping around from one concept to another.

> > > But as far as I can tell, each bit that he has identified has

> > > withstood the test of time and still fits.

> > > The puzzle just isn't complete yet.

> > > -

> >

> > From what I see so far ( last 2 years of DFW vids) I agree. Last

> > year, it was diastolic heart disease due to 'some sort of energy

> > problem' and how many CFS symptoms could proceed from that (or

from

> > the body's attempts to compensate for it). This year he's fleshed

in

> > what he thinks the energy issue is - that something is wrong in

the

> > handling of SuperOxide or Hydrogen Peroxide produced as by-

products in

> > energy production, so the body compensates for *that* by reducing

> > energy production - which then leads to the heart issues.

> >

> > I think he's on a roll. But the real issue is - are the patients

> > getting better?

> >

> > Cheney showed slides indicated improvements in some functions,

with

> > Hawthorn or with Hawthorn and Nexavir.

> >

> > Me, I'm trying several things that sound they it willl induce more

> > Super Oxide Dismutase and Catalase, based on Cheney's 2006 DFW

vids.

> >

> > - Bob Niederman

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hey mjh,

Thanks for that info! Did not know about the ATP but Magnesium Malate was

another product I took for years. That one was suggested for ME/CFS in the 90s.

For some reason, I stopped it too just a couple of years ago. Probably it was $$

and switching to lots of other things.

Katrina

>

> Katrina

>

> Speaking of apples...... malic acid/Mg malate found in apple skins raises

> ATP. My rheumatologist prescribed this along with Mg for me in 1999.

>

> mjh

> " The Basil Book "

> _http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/_ (http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/)

>

>

> Posted by: " kattemayo " _kattemayo@... _

> (mailto:kattemayo@...?Subject= Re:%20Cheney%20 & %20Hyperbaric%20(HBOT))

_kattemayo _

> (kattemayo)

> Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:06 am (PST)

>

> Janet,

>

> When I first became ill, with no idea what it was, SOD was one of the first

> things I decided to take, and did so for several years. Too bad I stopped for

> many more years!

>

> About raising Catalese, or precursers, I've been looking into Apple

> Polyphenols. The few studies I've seen are really intriguing, so I bought a

product

> that contains them. I found a forum of pretty savvy sounding people who are

> trying to raise catalese because of hair loss! They also spoke of the

> polyphenol research.

>

> I haven't talked about this, because it truly is an experiment, and not one

> suggested by *anyone* connected to ME/CFIDS or my doctors. It might just be a

> fad, but so far, I like the sound of it .

>

> Katrina

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bob, thanks for posting the info on Protandim.

I've looked up their site and seen the ingredients but they only tell

you the herbs and not anyother ingredients, fillers etc or importantly

the quantities of herbs in the mix, would you be a able to tell me

what is in these tablets?

BW,

Sheila

> >

> > Bob,

> >

> > Are you feeling better with what you are using ?? Couldn't your just

> > supplement SOD??

> >

> > Janet

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Katrina,

I'm sorry you or others took my comments not as they were intended. I didn't

mean to

minimize the work Cheney's been doing all these years. My point was just to

keep in mind

that however famous any doctor is, there are other doctors and/or patients who

may

disagree with him -- in this example, there are many on this list who have

benefitted from

hyperbaric oxygen.

You're correct that his discussion of the heart problems in many patients with

CFIDS is not

exactly " theory " . What I meant to suggest is that perhaps -- perhaps -- some of

his

treatment suggestion for the problem could fall into the theoretical realm.

Like I said before, he's a great doctor, an amazing advocate for PWC's -- and

I'll add that

he could very well be leading the way in some areas towards finally helping put

the pieces

of this complicated disease into place.

Again, I hope I didn't offend anyone by my comments. If so, I apologize!

Dan

> > > Hi all,

> > >

> > > I have recently acquired a home hyperbaric chamber (either for a couple of

months

or

> > > permanently) and I'm beginning to use it but finding the whole experience

pretty

> > > claustrophobic/weird/difficult. I would love to hear any *updates* from

people who

have

> > > done HBOT -- either short-term or long-term -- especially those with

severe CFIDS

and

> > > CFIDS with accompanying MCS. Any information on protocols that worked,

etc.,

would

> > also

> > > be helpful. The reason I decided to try HBOT finally is that I had a

significant carbon

> > > monoxide poisoning incident over a year ago, and then, this past August, I

had an

> > episode of

> > > methemoglobinemia (blackish blood) from a pesticide exposure. Since HBOT

is a

> > standard

> > > treatment for both of these, and since my CFIDS is so bad at this point, I

decided to

give

> > it a

> > > go.

> > >

> > > Any information would be appreciated.

> > >

> > > Peggy

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > > Sponsored Link

> > >

> > > Mortgage rates as low as 4.625% - $150,000 loan for $579 a month.

Intro-*Terms

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

No I can't. I don't have any information other than what's on their site.

The clinical study looked reasonable, if small, though I didn't go over alll

the references in the study.

On 11/22/06, lowcreoch <campbells53@...> wrote:

>

>

>

> Bob, thanks for posting the info on Protandim.

> I've looked up their site and seen the ingredients but they only tell

> you the herbs and not anyother ingredients, fillers etc or importantly

> the quantities of herbs in the mix, would you be a able to tell me

> what is in these tablets?

> BW,

> Sheila

>

> > >

> > > Bob,

> > >

> > > Are you feeling better with what you are using ?? Couldn't your just

> > > supplement SOD??

> > >

> > > Janet

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Isn't it amazing how so many " CFS doctors " claim such wondrous results

with vitamins and stress reduction, blah, blah, blah...

....when Dr Cheney and Dr have failed so miserably using every

dang extreme therapy in the book - and quite a few that AREN'T.

Makes you wonder where the discrepancy lies.

-

[Guest guest]

Helen,

Did you ever try Kutapressin?? Did it help you??

Janet

helen9jora <helenjora@...> wrote:

Janet:

Cheney told me that Nexavir works on the catalase. It's a new form of

Kutapressin, basically. Available by injection or a gel.

Regards,

Helen

> > > The way his work is presented piecemeal gives the

> > > impression that he's jumping around from one concept to another.

> > > But as far as I can tell, each bit that he has identified has

> > > withstood the test of time and still fits.

> > > The puzzle just isn't complete yet.

> > > -

> >

> > From what I see so far ( last 2 years of DFW vids) I agree. Last

> > year, it was diastolic heart disease due to 'some sort of energy

> > problem' and how many CFS symptoms could proceed from that (or

from

> > the body's attempts to compensate for it). This year he's fleshed

in

> > what he thinks the energy issue is - that something is wrong in

the

> > handling of SuperOxide or Hydrogen Peroxide produced as by-

products in

> > energy production, so the body compensates for *that* by reducing

> > energy production - which then leads to the heart issues.

> >

> > I think he's on a roll. But the real issue is - are the patients

> > getting better?

> >

> > Cheney showed slides indicated improvements in some functions,

with

> > Hawthorn or with Hawthorn and Nexavir.

> >

> > Me, I'm trying several things that sound they it willl induce more

> > Super Oxide Dismutase and Catalase, based on Cheney's 2006 DFW

vids.

> >

> > - Bob Niederman

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

If you go to www.vitamins4you and put in the catalse in the advanced search

section, all sorts of supplements come up with catalase in them. Another issue:

Is this a sulfur compound?? Because if it is, if genetics show a CBS

upregulation, it could cause problems without correct methylation.

Janet

Janet s <jgstev716@...> wrote:

Helen,

Did you ever try Kutapressin?? Did it help you??

Janet

helen9jora <helenjora@...> wrote:

Janet:

Cheney told me that Nexavir works on the catalase. It's a new form of

Kutapressin, basically. Available by injection or a gel.

Regards,

Helen

> > > The way his work is presented piecemeal gives the

> > > impression that he's jumping around from one concept to another.

> > > But as far as I can tell, each bit that he has identified has

> > > withstood the test of time and still fits.

> > > The puzzle just isn't complete yet.

> > > -

> >

> > From what I see so far ( last 2 years of DFW vids) I agree. Last

> > year, it was diastolic heart disease due to 'some sort of energy

> > problem' and how many CFS symptoms could proceed from that (or

from

> > the body's attempts to compensate for it). This year he's fleshed

in

> > what he thinks the energy issue is - that something is wrong in

the

> > handling of SuperOxide or Hydrogen Peroxide produced as by-

products in

> > energy production, so the body compensates for *that* by reducing

> > energy production - which then leads to the heart issues.

> >

> > I think he's on a roll. But the real issue is - are the patients

> > getting better?

> >

> > Cheney showed slides indicated improvements in some functions,

with

> > Hawthorn or with Hawthorn and Nexavir.

> >

> > Me, I'm trying several things that sound they it willl induce more

> > Super Oxide Dismutase and Catalase, based on Cheney's 2006 DFW

vids.

> >

> > - Bob Niederman

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Just curious what the " Incline Village " epidemic was? Charisse

[Guest guest]

I did some Kutapressin injections years ago, didn't help any.

Helen

> > > > The way his work is presented piecemeal gives the

> > > > impression that he's jumping around from one concept to

another.

> > > > But as far as I can tell, each bit that he has identified has

> > > > withstood the test of time and still fits.

> > > > The puzzle just isn't complete yet.

> > > > -

> > >

> > > From what I see so far ( last 2 years of DFW vids) I agree. Last

> > > year, it was diastolic heart disease due to 'some sort of energy

> > > problem' and how many CFS symptoms could proceed from that (or

> from

> > > the body's attempts to compensate for it). This year he's

fleshed

> in

> > > what he thinks the energy issue is - that something is wrong in

> the

> > > handling of SuperOxide or Hydrogen Peroxide produced as by-

> products in

> > > energy production, so the body compensates for *that* by

reducing

> > > energy production - which then leads to the heart issues.

> > >

> > > I think he's on a roll. But the real issue is - are the patients

> > > getting better?

> > >

> > > Cheney showed slides indicated improvements in some functions,

> with

> > > Hawthorn or with Hawthorn and Nexavir.

> > >

> > > Me, I'm trying several things that sound they it willl induce

more

> > > Super Oxide Dismutase and Catalase, based on Cheney's 2006 DFW

> vids.

> > >

> > > - Bob Niederman

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

" charchar1974 " wrote:

>

> Just curious what the " Incline Village " epidemic was? Charisse

>

Just like CFS itself, " Incline Village " epidemic is a term of

derision.

It happened like this. In 1984 there was an outbreak of an

unidentified illness that hit people scattered around Lake Tahoe.

As long as it was just individuals, it was of concern, but when a

cluster of schoolchildren and teachers got sick at Truckee High

School, Dr decided that this was sure looking like an

epidemic and called the CDC.

Amazingly enough, the CDC could care less and didn't want to respond.

But the mystery illness had made national newspaper headlines and

couldn't be conveniently ignored - so they sent two investigators to

Incline - who investigated nothing, called it " mass hysteria " and left.

Well, the problem just didn't go away - and news continued to spread.

A local paper called it " Tahoe Mystery Illness " but then, because Dr

Cheney and Dr were located in Incline Village on the North

Shore of Tahoe, in pure contempt and scorn, the name was changed

to " Incline Village disease " . This was a direct derisive poke at Dr

Cheney and , and had nothing to do with Incline really being

the center of the cluster - similar to " Yuppie Flu " . There were no

yuppies. Scorners just used any means they could to belittle

sufferers.

But all this publicity made Dr Cheney and Dr s evidence

harder to shove under the table. Dr Cheney had found Dr Bells

Lyndonville cluster, which was also being ignored. Up until then, it

was thought that we were totally alone.

So the CDC came back and put together a phony " EBV study " and did a

partial description of our illness, and called it " CFS " .

Yes the illness certainly existed before, but under different names

and not recognized in any form whatsoever by the CDC.

Dr h Ryll's 1975 " infectious venulitis " should have been the

epicenter of the emerging awareness of this illness - but it wasn't.

Dr Ryll did all the right stuff, but there was a major difference. He

didn't have all the publicity that the scorn of the whiny " yuppies "

and crazy " Incline Village Quacks " created.

" CFS " is often retrofitted upon the other prior names that people

formerly called their illness - and certainly I can understand that it

makes people angry that their pre-existing illness wound up

having " CFS " overlayed on it, but the reality is that without all the

scorn and derision, it is very likely that the Incline Village cohort

would have been buried, consigned to oblivion, and just as

deliberately forgotten as Dr Rylls cluster was. And since the CDC is

only now recognizing the " convergence of evidence " that says CFS is

real, without the early CFS doctors, we'd have almost no research into

this illness at all. Here's Dr Ryll's side of the story.

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/lymecfs/ryll.htm

-

[Guest guest]

Could someone please explain to me why Dr. Cheney and Dr. Goldstein

both believe HBOT is harmful? I'd really like to know more details

before embarking on this treatment. Also, are there any HBOT people

still on this list? (those who have had good experiences?).

I'm doing nebulized glutathione and glutathione shots concurrently

with the HBOT (which, for the record, I haven't really started yet as

the home HBOT chamber is far more complicated than I thought it would

be), so I'm hoping to prevent potential oxygen toxicity. I'm afraid

of fire and other dangers (i.e. changes to eyesight that some

experience with HBOT), but I don't know what specific physical dangers

would apply to CFIDS patients.

The general opinion of HBOT for cardiac conditions is mixed. There is

research on both sides. I personally have had so many experiences

where, post-exertion (and I'm talking minor exertion here) I've had an

extreme worsening of my cardiac symptoms and chest pains and neck

venous distention and ensuing cognitive problems that feel like

classic ischemia or cardiac decompensation. I want to experiment with

HBOT as a post-exertional tool for one thing, to see if it helps

offset my crashes somewhat.

Peggy

[Guest guest]

Cheney states his reasons on his recent DVDs. He reasons that too

much oxygen is bad, i.e. that we are getting enough oxygen, it just

isn't being distributed well enough to the cells. I would have to go

back through the DVDs to get a better explanation, maybe someone else

can do a better job explaning.

Read Carol's recent excellent post. She refers to the oxygen thing

that is put around your finger and how she has improved. Sorry, I

overdid it yesterday and am not thinking/writing clearly.

Mike C.

>

> Could someone please explain to me why Dr. Cheney and Dr. Goldstein

> both believe HBOT is harmful? I'd really like to know more details

> before embarking on this treatment. Also, are there any HBOT people

> still on this list? (those who have had good experiences?).

>