Re: Citrobacter koseri infection - ciprofloxacin

[Guest guest]

Hi Per

My daughter has antibodies (IgM) to citrobacter koseri in her blood,

together with antibodies to several other intestinal bacteria.

She has been taking Cipro one week every month for more than a year.

The rest of the month she takes probiotics.

We are aware of the problems of quinolones, but fortunately she has

not noticed any side effects, so maybe it is individual. Apart from

taking Cipro and probiotics, she also takes digestive enzymes,

drinks a lot of water, and is on a special diet. Furthermore she

takes lipoceutical glutathione, B12, vitamin C and a multivitamin

with minerals.

Unfortunately the citrobacter and the other bacteria have not been

defeated. Maybe they have been kept under control for a while, but

the last test result showed a worsening. She is probably going to

change antibiotic, and we are also reading about how low stomach

acid can make it easier for gram-negative bacteria to survive. I

think low stomach acid can be helped by Betaine HCL (and I am going

to read up on this, as I know there have been posts about it on this

board). She has also started taking flax seed oil.

Her problem with intestinal bacteria goes at least three years back,

in 2003 a stool analysis by Doctor`s data showed overgrowth of

Klebsiella Pneumonia and Candida. By that time she had not started

taking antibiotics.

Have you seen the paper:

" Increased serum IgA and IgM against LPS of enterobacteria in

chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS): Indication for the involvement of

gram-negative enterobacteria in the etiology of CFS and for the

presence of an increased gut-intestinal permeability "

http://fm-cfs.ca/oxidative_stress.html

In the paper citrobacter koseri is mentioned. (What is described in

the paper looks like what is going on in my daughter`s case, except

that her serum IgA is in general reduced, and I think that is the

reason she has no increased serum IgA to enterobacteria, only

increased serum IgM).

Hope you will post about your progress and that you will manage to

eradicate the citrobacter.

ne

>

> Hi anyone else found this on comprehensive digestive stool

analysis ?

>

> I have been on caprylic acid for over a year, but still has severe

gut problems. Ciprofloxacin is recommended by doctor, but the

quinolone class of antibiotics doesnt seem like vitamin C in terms

of safety.

>

> Anyone here who would recommend or not recommend Cipro ?

>

> I would think there would be alternatives....

>

> http://fqvictims.org/fqvictims/index.htm

[Guest guest]

>

thanks for an interesting article.

this makes one wonder if the pangorn suggestion of the vanc/gent combo

aimed at gram neg anaerobes is worth considering, followed by dosing up

on probiotics.

probiotics should be best taken with food, no?

thanks again

[Guest guest]

>

Ciprofloxacin is recommended by doctor, but the quinolone

> class of antibiotics doesnt seem like vitamin C in terms of safety.

>

> Anyone here who would recommend or not recommend Cipro ?

>

>

>

*** Hi Per - I do NOT recommend Cipro. I have used it twice, a year

and a half apart, and it resulted in me becoming lactose intolerant.

The first time I didn't make the connection, however, after the second

time using Cipro, it made the problem that much worse.

Take care.

Bernie

[Guest guest]

Per,

I would recommend you read the warnings at this website and take them

seriously before taking Cipro or any quinolone.

http://www.drugvictims.org/

Also this article by Dr. Jay Cohen. It will not encourage you to take

Cipro.

http://www.medicationsense.com/articles/may_aug_05/warning_antibiotics

_052205.html

a

> >

> Ciprofloxacin is recommended by doctor, but the quinolone

> > class of antibiotics doesnt seem like vitamin C in terms of

safety.

> >

> > Anyone here who would recommend or not recommend Cipro ?

> >

> >

> >

>

> *** Hi Per - I do NOT recommend Cipro. I have used it twice, a year

> and a half apart, and it resulted in me becoming lactose

intolerant.

> The first time I didn't make the connection, however, after the

second

> time using Cipro, it made the problem that much worse.

>

> Take care.

>

> Bernie

>

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

Thanks for your replies!

Yes, Ive checked a couple of quinolone-adverse-effects sites.

It is next to impossible to go on a trial of cipro after reading those

stories hehe. But seriously, just shows some of the inadequacies of

contemporary medicine. To explain why some people can do fine, and

other get bedridden with permanent suffering. Some of those stories

are really bad.

Antibodies to GABA receptors, or whatever I read about doesnt sound

very healthy for a CFS brain.

I guess I will consider it very very carefully, anyone know of any

alternative ABX ? Or go the natural route? Ive been on caprylic etc

for a couple of years.

thanks.

Per

> Per,

> I would recommend you read the warnings at this website and take them

> seriously before taking Cipro or any quinolone.

>

> http://www.drugvictims.org/

>

> Also this article by Dr. Jay Cohen. It will not encourage you to take

> Cipro.

>

> http://www.medicationsense.com/articles/may_aug_05/warning_antibiotics

> _052205.html

>

> a

>

>

> > >

> > Ciprofloxacin is recommended by doctor, but the quinolone

> > > class of antibiotics doesnt seem like vitamin C in terms of

> safety.

> > >

> > > Anyone here who would recommend or not recommend Cipro ?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > *** Hi Per - I do NOT recommend Cipro. I have used it twice, a year

> > and a half apart, and it resulted in me becoming lactose

> intolerant.

> > The first time I didn't make the connection, however, after the

> second

> > time using Cipro, it made the problem that much worse.

> >

> > Take care.

> >

> > Bernie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

> >

> thanks for an interesting article.

>

> this makes one wonder if the pangorn suggestion of the vanc/gent

combo

> aimed at gram neg anaerobes is worth considering, followed by

dosing up

> on probiotics.

>

I do not know if you have seen the book above, p 83 mentions urine

tests may be high for dihydroxyphenypropionate (DHPPA). He states

that restoring balance by probiotics may not work by itself. He

cites studies of autistic children with high DHPPA treated with

Vancomycin showed clinical improvement in behavior/cognition. " some

individuals with chronic illness accompanied by a history of

antibiotics, and lab data (abnormal pH, short chain fatty acid

distribution, and culture) suggesting abnormal bowel flora may

benefit from a course of a combination of two antibiotics that wipe

out a major segment of bowel flora. These are Vancomycin and

Gentamycin...taken orally, it does not enter the bloodstream. It

kills many kinds of bowel germs at an adult dose of 160 mg 5x daily

for 3 days. When combined with Vancomycin 250 mg 5x daily, it will

produce essentially odorless loose bowel movements by the third day.

At that point consumption of large doses of probiotics and an

antifungal medication offers some hope of restoring a healthy flora

while relieving symptoms that had been produced by a toxic bowel. "

Forget the autism stuff, the principle remains the same.

I scrawled in the margin " scary proposition? " ...as it would be hard

to calculate the temporary release of breakdown products this may

cause? This makes me wonder if alot of fiber and water after the

dose may help absorb, or maybe something else?? Dolomite sandwich,

ha. But at least there seems the advantage of treating the bowel

locally...and is directed at anaerobes & cipro may cause further

distortions in the wrong direction, e.g. c. difficile. many horror

stories have been told here for sure. perhaps your search may turn

up a better alternative and interested in your conclusion.

I do not know still what are the 12 " pathologic bacteria " that the

Belgium group look for and treat if found, let alone how they treat,

if anybody knows that i would appreciate link/post or if it has been

posted previously? I recall they were looking for antibodies to

diagnose...sIGA is just that secretory, so you are basically looking

at IgM, IgG.

Thanks again...it makes me want to test also, i suppose the list in

the article you cited is a place to start, still would like to know

the 12. mike

[Guest guest]

>

Silly me, the article WAS from the Belgium clinics! OOOPS.