Re: any researchers on board

[Guest guest]

I think you might be able to call Rich Vankonynen our researcher and a couple of

others. Jill maybe, Blake, there are a few.

david king <mrdavidgnik@...> wrote: ok so i used to be a member of

other groups, but i found i didnt have

enough time to read them all.

in my past i was a molecular biologist, so i understand how the body

works, but due to 6 years of M.E. my brain is a bit addled.

what i wanted to ask is, is there a researcher on this board, as i have

an idea about a possible cause and wanted to speak to someone whos

brain works

[Guest guest]

" david king " wrote:

works, but due to 6 years of M.E. my brain is a bit addled.

> what i wanted to ask is, is there a researcher on this board, as i

have an idea about a possible cause and wanted to speak to someone

whos brain works

>

Hey!

Just the type of guy I need.

Feel free to backchannel me.

Incline Village " Yuppie Flu " '85 survivor and Holmes et al CDC " CFS "

definition study group participant

And someone who never changed my story about how CFS came to be, and

what it is like despite the steady twenty year onslaught of people who

want me to admit that CFS is only what the CDC said it was.

[Guest guest]

My brain is still sort of functional, and I'll bet everyone here would be

interested in your theory. If you don;t want to go public, feel free to

back-channel me.

- Bob Niederman

On 10/4/06, david king <mrdavidgnik@...> wrote:

>

> i have

> an idea about a possible cause and wanted to speak to someone whos

> brain works

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

> other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

> discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

[Guest guest]

ok well my idea is this.

every cell in your body contains mitochondria.

in simple terms mitochondria are responsible for energy production.

The energy is produced produced using a process called the krebs

cycle.

Basically your body takes glucoes and through several processes

converts it to ATP wich is what your body uses now if there was a

problem anywhere along the krebs cycle then energy production would

be hampered. it could be something really simple such as an enzyme

defiency or possibly something slowing down the cycle, or even a

problem with the breakdown of glucose

i think this would explain every symptom of M.E. although i am not to

sure on the brain part, i think the brain runs on glucose.

if you imagine, you are having a good day. you are rested up and

your body isnt to bad.

then you do anything that requires the use of energy, the body is

slow to respond and you tire out.

any way any one who knows biology will understand this.

sorry if i havent explained cvery well. please fell free to ask more

questions

[Guest guest]

Righto, now this might seem like a silly question, but if glucose is so good,

how come when I tried some a few years back in one of my " experiments " it made

me feel so bad? Can you explain why just swallowing glucose didn't help (me)?

Would that be because of the " problem with the krebs cycle " you refer to and

would that mean that someone without a problem would benefit from taking glucose

directly?

Re: any researchers on board

ok well my idea is this.

every cell in your body contains mitochondria.

in simple terms mitochondria are responsible for energy production.

The energy is produced produced using a process called the krebs

cycle.

Basically your body takes glucoes and through several processes

converts it to ATP wich is what your body uses now if there was a

problem anywhere along the krebs cycle then energy production would

be hampered. it could be something really simple such as an enzyme

defiency or possibly something slowing down the cycle, or even a

problem with the breakdown of glucose

i think this would explain every symptom of M.E. although i am not to

sure on the brain part, i think the brain runs on glucose.

if you imagine, you are having a good day. you are rested up and

your body isnt to bad.

then you do anything that requires the use of energy, the body is

slow to respond and you tire out.

any way any one who knows biology will understand this.

sorry if i havent explained cvery well. please fell free to ask more

questions

[Guest guest]

I wanna quote Rich here because his opinion goes into the same

direction:

" In my opinion, for what it's worth, the problem in the mitochondria

of the heart muscle cells in CFS is that there has been a systemic

depletion of glutathione. This eventually causes a partial blockade

in the Krebs cycle of these mitochondria, and buildup of toxins and

infections as a result of glutathione depletion contribute

additional problems that cause mitochondrial dysfunction... "

>

> ok well my idea is this.

> every cell in your body contains mitochondria.

> in simple terms mitochondria are responsible for energy production.

> The energy is produced produced using a process called the krebs

> cycle.

> Basically your body takes glucoes and through several processes

> converts it to ATP wich is what your body uses now if there was a

> problem anywhere along the krebs cycle then energy production

would

> be hampered. it could be something really simple such as an enzyme

> defiency or possibly something slowing down the cycle, or even a

> problem with the breakdown of glucose

>

> i think this would explain every symptom of M.E. although i am not

to

> sure on the brain part, i think the brain runs on glucose.

> if you imagine, you are having a good day. you are rested up and

> your body isnt to bad.

> then you do anything that requires the use of energy, the body is

> slow to respond and you tire out.

>

> any way any one who knows biology will understand this.

> sorry if i havent explained cvery well. please fell free to ask

more

> questions

>

[Guest guest]

,

I concur with your theory. It is similar to what is described in the

online presentation at

http://www.xmission.com/~total/temple/Program/datadir/FMS_Etiology/fmspres1pg35.\

php3

The cell converts glucose to pyruvate. Pyruvate is then further

processed in the mitochondria to produce ATP.

The sixty-four thousand dollar question is " What is interfering with

the mitochondria blocking it from producing ATP? "

There are a number of things that could be contributing to the

problem. As Rich points out, glutathione depletion may be a

possibility. Bernard Jensen notes that lack of magnesium can

interfere with the kreb cycle. As the presentation shows, lack of

oxygen can also block the process.

As for the brain burning glucose, glucose is the sole fuel used by the

brain. Over 50% of the glucose used in the body is used by the brain.

muscle uses both fats and glucose for its energy production.

For the person that noted that supplemented glucose only exacerbated

the condition. Adding more glucose is like adding more gasoline to an

engine that is already flooded w/ fuel. The gas can't ignite till the

proper fuel::oxygen ratio is achieved.

All the best,

Jim

>

> ok well my idea is this.

> every cell in your body contains mitochondria.

> in simple terms mitochondria are responsible for energy production.

> The energy is produced produced using a process called the krebs

> cycle.

> Basically your body takes glucoes and through several processes

> converts it to ATP wich is what your body uses now if there was a

> problem anywhere along the krebs cycle then energy production would

> be hampered. it could be something really simple such as an enzyme

> defiency or possibly something slowing down the cycle, or even a

> problem with the breakdown of glucose

>

> i think this would explain every symptom of M.E. although i am not to

> sure on the brain part, i think the brain runs on glucose.

> if you imagine, you are having a good day. you are rested up and

> your body isnt to bad.

> then you do anything that requires the use of energy, the body is

> slow to respond and you tire out.

>

> any way any one who knows biology will understand this.

> sorry if i havent explained cvery well. please fell free to ask more

> questions

>

[Guest guest]

Maybe this has been answered, but I was wondering what test is used to determine

if one's Kreps cycle is on track. Thanks.

manuel_hbr <einfachzumerken@...> wrote:

I wanna quote Rich here because his opinion goes into the same

direction:

" In my opinion, for what it's worth, the problem in the mitochondria

of the heart muscle cells in CFS is that there has been a systemic

depletion of glutathione. This eventually causes a partial blockade

in the Krebs cycle of these mitochondria, and buildup of toxins and

infections as a result of glutathione depletion contribute

additional problems that cause mitochondrial dysfunction... "

>

> ok well my idea is this.

> every cell in your body contains mitochondria.

> in simple terms mitochondria are responsible for energy production.

> The energy is produced produced using a process called the krebs

> cycle.

> Basically your body takes glucoes and through several processes

> converts it to ATP wich is what your body uses now if there was a

> problem anywhere along the krebs cycle then energy production

would

> be hampered. it could be something really simple such as an enzyme

> defiency or possibly something slowing down the cycle, or even a

> problem with the breakdown of glucose

>

> i think this would explain every symptom of M.E. although i am not

to

> sure on the brain part, i think the brain runs on glucose.

> if you imagine, you are having a good day. you are rested up and

> your body isnt to bad.

> then you do anything that requires the use of energy, the body is

> slow to respond and you tire out.

>

> any way any one who knows biology will understand this.

> sorry if i havent explained cvery well. please fell free to ask

more

> questions

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Your logic and intuition here seems harmonious with the work of Dr.

Myhill (in the UK).

I think you might find this paper interesting, where she outlines how the

ATP may be blocked, the consequences, and also some treatment

recommendations:

http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/article.cfm?id=373

--Kurt

On 10/5/06, david king <mrdavidgnik@...> wrote:

>

> ok well my idea is this.

> every cell in your body contains mitochondria.

> in simple terms mitochondria are responsible for energy production.

> The energy is produced produced using a process called the krebs

> cycle.

> Basically your body takes glucoes and through several processes

> converts it to ATP wich is what your body uses now if there was a

> problem anywhere along the krebs cycle then energy production would

> be hampered. it could be something really simple such as an enzyme

> defiency or possibly something slowing down the cycle, or even a

> problem with the breakdown of glucose

>

> i think this would explain every symptom of M.E. although i am not to

> sure on the brain part, i think the brain runs on glucose.

> if you imagine, you are having a good day. you are rested up and

> your body isnt to bad.

> then you do anything that requires the use of energy, the body is

> slow to respond and you tire out.

>

> any way any one who knows biology will understand this.

> sorry if i havent explained cvery well. please fell free to ask more

> questions

>

> _

>

[Guest guest]

Jim

Malic acid provides Mg and kicks in the ATP

mjh

" The Basil Book "

_http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/_ (http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/)

Bernard Jensen notes that lack of magnesium can

interfere with the kreb cycle. As the presentation shows, lack of

oxygen can also block the process.

[Guest guest]

Kurt,

Thank you for this. I found it fascinating. I plan on getting to a

cardiologist and getting the test performed. It's funny, but intuitively I've

always thought my heart was the heart of the issue. Maybe because it " skips " so

much and sometimes feels like a dieing fish flopping about in there and my usual

blood pressure for as long as I can remember has been about 95/58. Almost

always the taker comments on how low it is. It's gone as low as 80/50 often.

Kurt Rowley <kurtrowley@...> wrote:

Hi ,

Your logic and intuition here seems harmonious with the work of Dr.

Myhill (in the UK).

I think you might find this paper interesting, where she outlines how the

ATP may be blocked, the consequences, and also some treatment

recommendations:

http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/article.cfm?id=373

--Kurt

On 10/5/06, david king <mrdavidgnik@...> wrote:

>

> ok well my idea is this.

> every cell in your body contains mitochondria.

> in simple terms mitochondria are responsible for energy production.

> The energy is produced produced using a process called the krebs

> cycle.

> Basically your body takes glucoes and through several processes

> converts it to ATP wich is what your body uses now if there was a

> problem anywhere along the krebs cycle then energy production would

> be hampered. it could be something really simple such as an enzyme

> defiency or possibly something slowing down the cycle, or even a

> problem with the breakdown of glucose

>

> i think this would explain every symptom of M.E. although i am not to

> sure on the brain part, i think the brain runs on glucose.

> if you imagine, you are having a good day. you are rested up and

> your body isnt to bad.

> then you do anything that requires the use of energy, the body is

> slow to respond and you tire out.

>

> any way any one who knows biology will understand this.

> sorry if i havent explained cvery well. please fell free to ask more

> questions

>

> _

>

[Guest guest]

Well, I am glad to have another scientist on the list. Rich is super

busy these days, co-authoring a paper and I think authoring another,

his address is richvank@... - you can search for him on the

site for this group by plugging richvank in to the author field of the

advanced search function. Other research (including more of Rich's)

can be found at http://www.phoenix-cfs.org/The%20SITE/mainmenu.htm .

Mark London is another researcher with interedsting comments who

sometimes posts here.

- Bob Niederman

On 10/5/06, david king <mrdavidgnik@...> wrote:

> Basically your body takes glucoes and through several processes

> converts it to ATP wich is what your body uses now if there was a

> problem anywhere along the krebs cycle then energy production would

> be hampered. it could be something really simple such as an enzyme

> defiency or possibly something slowing down the cycle, or even a

> problem with the breakdown of glucose

>

> i think this would explain every symptom of M.E. although i am not to

> sure on the brain part,

[Guest guest]

Sorry for not quoting the rest of the text. Biolab Medical Unit

London provides the test you are looking for. Here is the full quote

of what Rich said:

" ***Cardiomyopathy means that there is a disease of the heart muscle.

***Idiopathic cardiomyopathy means that there is a disease of the

heart muscle, and the cause of it is not known.

***Among the idiopathic cardiomyopathies, there are the dilated,

restrictive and hypertrophic cardiomyopathies.

***Diastolic dysfunction is a restrictive cardiomyopathy. In this

condition, the left ventricle fills with a smaller volume of blood

than normal during the diastolic phase of the heart's cycle, so that

the cardiac output is less than normal.

***Dr. Cheney believes that the heart muscle cells have an energy

problem in CFS, which produces the diastolic dysfunction that he

sees in his patients. It is known that if the rate of production of

ATP by the mitochondria of the heart muscle cells is too low, the

heart muscle will not be able to relax fast enough to allow a normal

amount of blood to enter the left ventricle during the time

available in the diastolic phase of the heart cycle. He is

exploring the reason why the rate of production of ATP is too slow.

***In my opinion, for what it's worth, the problem in the

mitochondria of the heart muscle cells in CFS is that there has been

a systemic depletion of glutathione. This eventually causes a

partial blockade in the Krebs cycle of these mitochondria, and

buildup of toxins and infections as a result of glutathione

depletion contribute additional problems that cause mitochondrial

dysfunction, as is being seen in the ATP Profile test and the

Translocator Protein test offered by Biolab Medical Unit in London,

U.K. "

> >

> > ok well my idea is this.

> > every cell in your body contains mitochondria.

> > in simple terms mitochondria are responsible for energy

production.

> > The energy is produced produced using a process called the krebs

> > cycle.

> > Basically your body takes glucoes and through several processes

> > converts it to ATP wich is what your body uses now if there was

a

> > problem anywhere along the krebs cycle then energy production

> would

> > be hampered. it could be something really simple such as an

enzyme

> > defiency or possibly something slowing down the cycle, or even a

> > problem with the breakdown of glucose

> >

> > i think this would explain every symptom of M.E. although i am

not

> to

> > sure on the brain part, i think the brain runs on glucose.

> > if you imagine, you are having a good day. you are rested up and

> > your body isnt to bad.

> > then you do anything that requires the use of energy, the body

is

> > slow to respond and you tire out.

> >

> > any way any one who knows biology will understand this.

> > sorry if i havent explained cvery well. please fell free to ask

> more

> > questions

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>