Re: Predisposing factors for CFS.

[Guest guest]

I personally began to suffer from CFS-like symptoms after I was

exposed to toxic mold.

(stachybotrys, aspergillius/penicillium)

I recently found this information about how some other toxins

interact with mycotoxins to make the combination much more toxic.

Perhaps this is one of the possible triggers for CFS in many people.

Just because you don't see mold in a building doesn't mean it isn't there.

Many water damaged buildings have mold inside of the walls, invisible

to the eye.

TOXICOLOGICAL SCIENCES 53, 253–263 (2000)

Abstract:

" Human exposure to Gram-negative bacterial lipopolysaccharide

(LPS) is common and may have an important influence on chemical

toxicity. LPS has been shown previously to enhance synergistically

the toxicity of trichothecene mycotoxins. Because either of these toxin

groups alone characteristically target lymphoid organs at high doses,

we evaluated the effects of coexposure to subthreshold doses of

Salmonella typhimurium LPS and vomitoxin (VT) administered by

intraperitoneal injection and oral gavage of B6C3F1 mice, respectively,

on apoptosis in lymphoid tissues after 12-h exposure. The

capacity of LPS (0.5 mg/kg body weight) and VT (25 mg/kg body

weight) to act synergistically in causing apoptosis in thymus, spleen,

and Peyer's patches was suggested by increased internucleosomal

DNA fragmentation in whole cell lysates as determined by gel electrophoresis.

Following terminal deoxynucleotidyl transferase (TdT)-

mediated fluorescein-dUTP nick end-labeling (TUNEL) of tissue

sections, a dramatic enhancement of fluorescence intensity indicative

of apoptosis was observed in thymus, spleen, Peyer's patches, and

bone marrow from coexposed animals as compared to those given the

agents alone. Evaluation of hematoxylin and eosin-stained tissue

sections of treatment mice revealed the characteristic features of

lymphocyte apoptosis, including marked condensation of nuclear

chromatin, fragmentation of nuclei, and formation of apoptotic bodies

in tissues from mice. Combined treatment with VT (25 mg/kg

body weight) and LPS (0.5 mg/kg body weight) significantly increased

(p < 0.05) the amount of apoptotic thymic and splenic tissue as

compared to the expected additive responses of mice receiving either

toxin alone. When apoptosis was examined in cell suspensions of

thymus, spleen, Peyer's patches, and bone marrow by flow cytometry

in conjunction with propidium iodide staining, the percentage of

apoptotic cells was significantly increased (p < 0.05) in cotreatment

groups as compared to the additive responses to LPS and VT given

alone. The results provide qualitative and quantitative evidence for

the hypothesis that LPS exposure markedly amplifies the toxicity of

trichothecenes and that the immune system is a primary target for

these interactive effects.

Key Words: trichothecene; vomitoxin; deoxynivalenol; mycotoxin;

immunotoxicity; protein synthesis inhibition; spleen; endotoxin;

flow cytometry; lipopolysaccharide; apoptosis; programmed

cell death; thymus; Peyer's patch; bone marrow.

Endotoxin is a biologically active component of Gram negative

bacterial cell walls that exists as complexes of lipopolysaccharide

(LPS) and protein (Hewett and Roth, 1993).

LPS is the chemical substituent with principal biologic activity

and plays a critical role in immune and inflammatory responses

to Gram-negative bacteria. Exposure to it can stimulate both

mononuclear phagocyte function and other host responses that

result in removal of invading bacteria. Exposure to a small LPS

dose does not normally cause life-threatening tissue damage,

but it can initiate an incomplete and submaximal inflammatory

response. Although such a modest inflammatory response may

be insufficient to cause overt injury in unstressed individuals,

these responses may alter homeostasis in individuals coexposed

to a stress (such as a chemical insult) with the net result

being frank tissue injury.

There is extensive evidence that LPS can influence the

magnitude of toxic responses to xenobiotic agents. In some

cases, LPS contamination of an environmental chemical source

(e.g., LPS in machining fluids) may be the primary determinant

of the toxic response (Gordon and Harkema, 1995; Mattsby-

Baltzer et al., 1989), whereas in other cases concurrent exposure

to small amounts of LPS may magnify the inherent toxicity

of a chemical. For example, exposure to modest, normally

nontoxic doses of LPS markedly increases the hepatotoxic

responses to a number of xenobiotic agents including CCl4,

ethanol, galactosamine, and allyl alcohol (reviewed in Roth et

al., 1997). These and other examples suggest that humans

exposed to low doses of LPS may represent a subpopulation

that is particularly sensitive to xenobiotic chemicals.

The trichothecenes

are a group of sesquiterpenoid fungal toxins that

includes some of the most potent protein synthesis inhibitors

known (Ueno, 1987). Trichothecene mycotoxins are commonly

found in cereal grains as a result of Fusarium infestation

and have also been detected in air samples from waterdamaged

buildings that harbor the growth of Stachyobotrys

(Johanning et al., 1996). The trichothecene vomitoxin (VT or

deoxynivalenol) is a common contaminant of wheat and corn

products and can be found at ppm levels in ready-to-eat foods

(Rotter et al., 1996). Hallmarks of experimental or accidental

high-dose trichothecene exposure include rapid diminution of

lymphoid tissue and lymphopenia that precede death via a

circulatory shocklike syndrome (Beardall and , 1994).

Apoptosis is a programmed mode of cell death that is essential

in several biologic circumstances, including development

of the immune system (Cohen et al., 1992). Cells undergoing

apoptosis in vivo demonstrate nuclear and cytoplasmic

condensation and dissolution into membrane-bound fragments

that are phagocytosed by neighboring cells and rapidly degraded.

A principal role for programmed cell death is thought

to be efficient removal of stressed, damaged, or unnecessary

cells from a tissue without the generation of inflammatory or

immune responses. Exposure in vivo to large doses of LPS

induces apoptosis in splenic germinal centers and thymus

(THY) of mice (Zhang et al., 1994) and swine (Norimatsu et

al., 1995). Recently, the induction of thymic atrophy with

accompanying thymocyte apoptosis was reported in mice exposed

to intraperitoneal injections of the trichothecenes T-2

toxin and fusarenone (Islam et al., 1998).

In previous studies with mice, it has been observed that

trichothecenes become more toxic in the presence of LPS,

thereby causing markedly elevated tissue injury and mortality

(Tai and Pestka, 1988; et al., 1991; Zhou, et al., 1999).

Pronounced thymic and splenic lymphocyte depletion were

characteristically observed in these studies. Because either LPS

or trichothecenes alone will induce apoptosis in lymphoid

tissue at large doses, we sought to evaluate the effects of low

doses of Salmonella typhimurium LPS and a common foodborne

trichothecene, VT, on apoptosis in four potential lymphoid

targets, namely, thymus (THY), Peyer's patches (PP),

spleen (SP), and bone marrow (BM). The study yielded both

qualitative and quantitative evidence indicating that low doses

of LPS and VT synergistically increase apoptotic cell loss in

lymphoid tissue. "

On 9/5/06, Blake Graham <blanket@...> wrote:

> Dear list,

>

> It is clear that in most cases of true CFS there is an acute viral trigger,

sometimes bacterial.

[Guest guest]

" Blake Graham " <blanket@...> wrote:

>

> Dear list,

>

> It is clear that in most cases of true CFS there is an acute viral

trigger, sometimes bacterial. There is obviously something present

in these individuals that makes them not recover from acute viral or

other infections, something causing immune abnormalities. The

following factors are what I believe these factors include. Each

person has a number of these factors PRIOR to CFS onset,

predisposing them:

> -Poor diet (e.g. excess refined sugar)

> -Nutrient deficiencies (esp. vitamin D, vitamin A & zinc)

> -Drugs/medications

> -Environmental exposures (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals,

molds, EMF's, etc.)

> -Psycho-social stress

> -Inadequate sleep quantity and quality

> -Dysbiosis, gastrointestinal infections (e.g. parasites, bacteria)

and leaky gut

> -A large array of genetic factors which directly or indirectly

impair immune response

> -Excess physical activity

>

> Regards,

>

> Blake Graham

This is basically what we were told twenty years ago, that we had

fallen apart from our own weaknesses and excesses, with perhaps a

stray toxin or virus thrown in.

But from our perspective, an illness that no one recognized went

through town and did something that none of these factors were ever

known to do before.

-

[Guest guest]

OK. I agree. It fits me. It might be helpful to others on this

list, as well as me, to give a link or discuss what your treatments

are to improve the health of those unfortunate enough to have

succumbed to being sick due to your hypothesis below. If each

patient has different needs, then please say such.

Mike C

In , " Blake Graham " <blanket@...>

wrote:

>

> Dear list,

>

> It is clear that in most cases of true CFS there is an acute viral

trigger, sometimes bacterial. There is obviously something present

in these individuals that makes them not recover from acute viral or

other infections, something causing immune abnormalities. The

following factors are what I believe these factors include. Each

person has a number of these factors PRIOR to CFS onset,

predisposing them:

> -Poor diet (e.g. excess refined sugar)

> -Nutrient deficiencies (esp. vitamin D, vitamin A & zinc)

> -Drugs/medications

> -Environmental exposures (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals,

molds, EMF's, etc.)

> -Psycho-social stress

> -Inadequate sleep quantity and quality

> -Dysbiosis, gastrointestinal infections (e.g. parasites, bacteria)

and leaky gut

> -A large array of genetic factors which directly or indirectly

impair immune response

> -Excess physical activity

>

> Regards,

>

> Blake Graham

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

CFS has to be multi-factorial. I don't doubt that many people in your group

(including you) were perfectly healthy before sudden onset, but there has to be

a reason why only a minority of people don't recovery from the triggering agent,

and most people do. Dr. Shoemakers writes about genetic predispositions to mold

toxiticy. Glutathione depletion also may play a significant role in mold

toxicity. There has to be more than one factor in my opinion, and everyone

combination of factors is unique.

Blake

Re: Predisposing factors for CFS.

" Blake Graham " <blanket@...> wrote:

>

> Dear list,

>

> It is clear that in most cases of true CFS there is an acute viral

trigger, sometimes bacterial. There is obviously something present

in these individuals that makes them not recover from acute viral or

other infections, something causing immune abnormalities. The

following factors are what I believe these factors include. Each

person has a number of these factors PRIOR to CFS onset,

predisposing them:

> -Poor diet (e.g. excess refined sugar)

> -Nutrient deficiencies (esp. vitamin D, vitamin A & zinc)

> -Drugs/medications

> -Environmental exposures (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals,

molds, EMF's, etc.)

> -Psycho-social stress

> -Inadequate sleep quantity and quality

> -Dysbiosis, gastrointestinal infections (e.g. parasites, bacteria)

and leaky gut

> -A large array of genetic factors which directly or indirectly

impair immune response

> -Excess physical activity

>

> Regards,

>

> Blake Graham

This is basically what we were told twenty years ago, that we had

fallen apart from our own weaknesses and excesses, with perhaps a

stray toxin or virus thrown in.

But from our perspective, an illness that no one recognized went

through town and did something that none of these factors were ever

known to do before.

-

[Guest guest]

Dear group,

While always says this " went

through (his) town " , becasue that is what he personally experienced...please

keep in mind, the same " thing " went through many other cities and regions across

the country.

The year that " it " hit me was 1985...the year that Dr.s Cheney and , in

Incline Village/s area and Dr. Bell in Lyndonville York...called the

CDC in to investigate the mystery disease that had disabled many of their

previously healthy patients.

Bell was a Pediatrician? with many children/teenagers affected...that he

had know since birth, in addition to knowing their families. Sometimes, it was

one child and sometimes more, in a family.

I don't know if this was in the news, but I never heard of this disease, or

about these doctors/the CDC. {I did not watch TV then, or maybe even read the

paper}.

I did meet one person in another county diagnosed with " EpsteinBarr " , and

remember that people's responses made it sound like pretty grave news.

It was a few years later that I found out that was the incorrect name given to

" it " , what I now had, and about Cheney, , Bell,their towns, and the CDC

I don't understand why you say only a minority remain ill and most people

recover. When asked about that in a CFS documentary, Dr. said " none "

had recovered.

For awhile we heard 1/3 get better, 1/3 remain the same, 1/3 get worse. Then we

have heard 2-10% recover.

We have heard that some have a milder case or get better in 2 years, especially

those who rested. I've known 3 in that category...but they they still have Neuro

and/or immune vulnerability.

We cannot possibly state the total statistics, because the CDC has never done a

complete epidemilogical study. They never will, either, because over the years,

they have widened the definition of CFS and made it an umbrella for a completely

mixed population.

They used to give very small numbers, which we never believed,which they had to

adjust up about 5-fold, after their own actual physician surveys. It was

800,000, growing to 1 Million.

As of June 06, with no explanation whatsoever, but including " CFS-like " , the

CAA's PR campaign and the CDC suddenly are saying 4 Million Americans have CFS.

BTW, none of your conditions were present for me, to my knowledge, and I have

really tried to find them, except that I do not know my genetics. But as I said,

not a sole relative has ever had anything remotely similar.

I do think 2 people have a bit of MCS, which I acquired later. I see many people

now, who have some MCS, even tho they don't call it that. Plus EMF reaction,

plus mold reaction. Alot of people today are a mess, neurologically, sick a lot,

or exhausted, but they don't know why.

Also, in Pandemics or epidemics, aren't the intial hits more virulent, and then

the bug weakens?

They used to say, " this is a smart virus...it knows how not to kill it's host "

I don't doubt there may be multiple causes for onset. But it sure felt like an

" it " to me.

{ Having seen a friend in late70s, early80s, become sickened from mold, and

hearing about " Black Mold " , I practiced mold avoidance, as far as I was aware. I

find this actually more difficult now, because some form is everywhere,

including right here}.

Katrina

> >

> > Dear list,

> >

> > It is clear that in most cases of true CFS there is an acute viral

> trigger, sometimes bacterial. There is obviously something present

> in these individuals that makes them not recover from acute viral or

> other infections, something causing immune abnormalities. The

> following factors are what I believe these factors include. Each

> person has a number of these factors PRIOR to CFS onset,

> predisposing them:

> > -Poor diet (e.g. excess refined sugar)

> > -Nutrient deficiencies (esp. vitamin D, vitamin A & zinc)

> > -Drugs/medications

> > -Environmental exposures (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals,

> molds, EMF's, etc.)

> > -Psycho-social stress

> > -Inadequate sleep quantity and quality

> > -Dysbiosis, gastrointestinal infections (e.g. parasites, bacteria)

> and leaky gut

> > -A large array of genetic factors which directly or indirectly

> impair immune response

> > -Excess physical activity

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Blake Graham

>

> This is basically what we were told twenty years ago, that we had

> fallen apart from our own weaknesses and excesses, with perhaps a

> stray toxin or virus thrown in.

> But from our perspective, an illness that no one recognized went

> through town and did something that none of these factors were ever

> known to do before.

> -

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Katrina,

I was referring to recovering from the triggering agent (e.g. Epstein Barr), not

saying the majority of people recover from CFS. For example like in the Dubbo

study's rich has posted about, the majority of people recover from the acute

infection, while a small group go on to get long term CFS.

There are certainly other factors I did not mention that could predispose to

post-infectious CFS. It is impossible to rule out all these factors. We all have

some nutrient imbalances, some heavy metals, some pesticides & dysbiosis,

factors which can impair immune response and cause non-recovery from acute

infections.

Best regards,

Blake

Re: Predisposing factors for CFS.

Dear group,

While always says this " went

through (his) town " , becasue that is what he personally experienced...please

keep in mind, the same " thing " went through many other cities and regions across

the country.

The year that " it " hit me was 1985...the year that Dr.s Cheney and ,

in Incline Village/s area and Dr. Bell in Lyndonville York...called

the CDC in to investigate the mystery disease that had disabled many of their

previously healthy patients.

Bell was a Pediatrician? with many children/teenagers affected...that he

had know since birth, in addition to knowing their families. Sometimes, it was

one child and sometimes more, in a family.

I don't know if this was in the news, but I never heard of this disease, or

about these doctors/the CDC. {I did not watch TV then, or maybe even read the

paper}.

I did meet one person in another county diagnosed with " EpsteinBarr " , and

remember that people's responses made it sound like pretty grave news.

It was a few years later that I found out that was the incorrect name given to

" it " , what I now had, and about Cheney, , Bell,their towns, and the CDC

I don't understand why you say only a minority remain ill and most people

recover. When asked about that in a CFS documentary, Dr. said " none "

had recovered.

For awhile we heard 1/3 get better, 1/3 remain the same, 1/3 get worse. Then

we have heard 2-10% recover.

We have heard that some have a milder case or get better in 2 years,

especially those who rested. I've known 3 in that category...but they they still

have Neuro and/or immune vulnerability.

We cannot possibly state the total statistics, because the CDC has never done

a complete epidemilogical study. They never will, either, because over the

years, they have widened the definition of CFS and made it an umbrella for a

completely mixed population.

They used to give very small numbers, which we never believed,which they had

to adjust up about 5-fold, after their own actual physician surveys. It was

800,000, growing to 1 Million.

As of June 06, with no explanation whatsoever, but including " CFS-like " , the

CAA's PR campaign and the CDC suddenly are saying 4 Million Americans have CFS.

BTW, none of your conditions were present for me, to my knowledge, and I have

really tried to find them, except that I do not know my genetics. But as I said,

not a sole relative has ever had anything remotely similar.

I do think 2 people have a bit of MCS, which I acquired later. I see many

people now, who have some MCS, even tho they don't call it that. Plus EMF

reaction, plus mold reaction. Alot of people today are a mess, neurologically,

sick a lot, or exhausted, but they don't know why.

Also, in Pandemics or epidemics, aren't the intial hits more virulent, and

then the bug weakens?

They used to say, " this is a smart virus...it knows how not to kill it's host "

I don't doubt there may be multiple causes for onset. But it sure felt like an

" it " to me.

{ Having seen a friend in late70s, early80s, become sickened from mold, and

hearing about " Black Mold " , I practiced mold avoidance, as far as I was aware. I

find this actually more difficult now, because some form is everywhere,

including right here}.

Katrina

> >

> > Dear list,

> >

> > It is clear that in most cases of true CFS there is an acute viral

> trigger, sometimes bacterial. There is obviously something present

> in these individuals that makes them not recover from acute viral or

> other infections, something causing immune abnormalities. The

> following factors are what I believe these factors include. Each

> person has a number of these factors PRIOR to CFS onset,

> predisposing them:

> > -Poor diet (e.g. excess refined sugar)

> > -Nutrient deficiencies (esp. vitamin D, vitamin A & zinc)

> > -Drugs/medications

> > -Environmental exposures (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals,

> molds, EMF's, etc.)

> > -Psycho-social stress

> > -Inadequate sleep quantity and quality

> > -Dysbiosis, gastrointestinal infections (e.g. parasites, bacteria)

> and leaky gut

> > -A large array of genetic factors which directly or indirectly

> impair immune response

> > -Excess physical activity

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Blake Graham

>

> This is basically what we were told twenty years ago, that we had

> fallen apart from our own weaknesses and excesses, with perhaps a

> stray toxin or virus thrown in.

> But from our perspective, an illness that no one recognized went

> through town and did something that none of these factors were ever

> known to do before.

> -

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>>>I was referring to recovering from the triggering agent (e.g. Epstein

Barr)<<<<

Am I missing something?

Tho Strauss of the NIH believed and said for years that the disease was

EBV, that theory was unraveling just as the CDC was meeting to make up a name

for the epidemic.

{See " Osler's Web " }

It is now believed that CFS patients who have high antibodies to EBV, are in

" response " (as in " opportunistic " ) to " the disease...CFS " , as opposed to it

being cause.

According to the CDC, EBV is found in about 90% of adults in the U.S.

Maybe I misunderstood what your statement meant.

Of course we all have some of those factors, and more everyday in this world.

But why do others with those same factors, genetics, or stress level, or all,

not have this bizarre illness?

Are you addressing CEBV, ME/CFS ( " original " CFS), Fukuda CFS or " CFS-like " ?

Katrina

> > >

> > > Dear list,

> > >

> > > It is clear that in most cases of true CFS there is an acute viral

> > trigger, sometimes bacterial. There is obviously something present

> > in these individuals that makes them not recover from acute viral or

> > other infections, something causing immune abnormalities. The

> > following factors are what I believe these factors include. Each

> > person has a number of these factors PRIOR to CFS onset,

> > predisposing them:

> > > -Poor diet (e.g. excess refined sugar)

> > > -Nutrient deficiencies (esp. vitamin D, vitamin A & zinc)

> > > -Drugs/medications

> > > -Environmental exposures (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals,

> > molds, EMF's, etc.)

> > > -Psycho-social stress

> > > -Inadequate sleep quantity and quality

> > > -Dysbiosis, gastrointestinal infections (e.g. parasites, bacteria)

> > and leaky gut

> > > -A large array of genetic factors which directly or indirectly

> > impair immune response

> > > -Excess physical activity

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > > Blake Graham

> >

> > This is basically what we were told twenty years ago, that we had

> > fallen apart from our own weaknesses and excesses, with perhaps a

> > stray toxin or virus thrown in.

> > But from our perspective, an illness that no one recognized went

> > through town and did something that none of these factors were ever

> > known to do before.

> > -

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Katrina,

I was saying that EBV is one possible trigger of CFS. There are many infectious

triggers, and in cases of EBV triggered CFS EBV is definitely not the sole cause

of CFS.

It is the unique combination of genetic and aquired factors which cause CFS.

Same goes for Autism or other chronic illnesses. Most people have dysbiosis,

chemical exposures, etc. and will never get CFS. That's not to say these are not

important.

I am referring to CFS/ME as described in the canadian case definition.

Blake

Re: Predisposing factors for CFS.

>>>I was referring to recovering from the triggering agent (e.g. Epstein

Barr)<<<<

Am I missing something?

Tho Strauss of the NIH believed and said for years that the disease

was EBV, that theory was unraveling just as the CDC was meeting to make up a

name for the epidemic.

{See " Osler's Web " }

It is now believed that CFS patients who have high antibodies to EBV, are in

" response " (as in " opportunistic " ) to " the disease...CFS " , as opposed to it

being cause.

According to the CDC, EBV is found in about 90% of adults in the U.S.

Maybe I misunderstood what your statement meant.

Of course we all have some of those factors, and more everyday in this world.

But why do others with those same factors, genetics, or stress level, or all,

not have this bizarre illness?

Are you addressing CEBV, ME/CFS ( " original " CFS), Fukuda CFS or " CFS-like " ?

Katrina

> > >

> > > Dear list,

> > >

> > > It is clear that in most cases of true CFS there is an acute viral

> > trigger, sometimes bacterial. There is obviously something present

> > in these individuals that makes them not recover from acute viral or

> > other infections, something causing immune abnormalities. The

> > following factors are what I believe these factors include. Each

> > person has a number of these factors PRIOR to CFS onset,

> > predisposing them:

> > > -Poor diet (e.g. excess refined sugar)

> > > -Nutrient deficiencies (esp. vitamin D, vitamin A & zinc)

> > > -Drugs/medications

> > > -Environmental exposures (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals,

> > molds, EMF's, etc.)

> > > -Psycho-social stress

> > > -Inadequate sleep quantity and quality

> > > -Dysbiosis, gastrointestinal infections (e.g. parasites, bacteria)

> > and leaky gut

> > > -A large array of genetic factors which directly or indirectly

> > impair immune response

> > > -Excess physical activity

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > > Blake Graham

> >

> > This is basically what we were told twenty years ago, that we had

> > fallen apart from our own weaknesses and excesses, with perhaps a

> > stray toxin or virus thrown in.

> > But from our perspective, an illness that no one recognized went

> > through town and did something that none of these factors were ever

> > known to do before.

> > -

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

>{ Having seen a friend in late70s, early80s, become sickened from mold, and

hearing about " Black Mold " , I >practiced mold avoidance, as far as I was aware.

I find this actually more difficult now, because some form is >everywhere,

including right here}.

Katrina,

OMG, you mean there's black mold right here on ?! ))

Nelly (sorry!)

[Guest guest]

Friends

Please trim your posts.

thanks

mjh

" The Basil Book "

http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/

[Guest guest]

" Blake Graham " <blanket@...> wrote:

>

> Hi ,

>

> CFS has to be multi-factorial. I don't doubt that many people in

your group (including you) were perfectly healthy before sudden

onset, but there has to be a reason why only a minority of people

don't recovery from the triggering agent, and most people do. Dr.

Shoemakers writes about genetic predispositions to mold toxiticy.

Glutathione depletion also may play a significant role in mold

toxicity. There has to be more than one factor in my opinion, and

everyone combination of factors is unique.

>

> Blake

Hi Blake.

Considering that I'm " on board " with Shoemaker and am a " double

dreaded mold genie " , I'm certainly not arguing against HLA DR

susceptibilities and multiple factors in CFS.

Despite the misunderstanding of people who say " says that mold

is the cause of everything " , I can cite my years of saying

that " mold is NOT the cause " and implicating other factors such as

mycoplasma and HHV6a to support this.

However, the circumstances that create CFS are not so unique and

multifactorial that they cannot be reproduced in groups.

The clusters of illness demonstrate that these factors can come

together and create a spectacular effect REGARDLESS of the levels of

psychosocial stress, toxic burden, lifestyle, drug or non-use of

drugs or level of physical activity in these individuals.

To me, that means that in regards to these often-implicated

factors, the illness just plain didn't give a damn one way or the

other. So people who DIDN " T have these in their life should not

constantly be confronted with the argument that they " must have had

them " , in order for them to have developed the illness.

The exceptions have demonstrated that there is no reason to include

them as anything more than incidental and unnecessary for

development of CFS.

-

[Guest guest]

" kattemayo " wrote:

> Dear group,

>

> While always says this " went

> through (his) town " , becasue that is what he personally

experienced...please keep in mind, the same " thing " went through

many other cities and regions across the country.

>

> The year that " it " hit me was 1985...the year that Dr.s Cheney and

, in Incline Village/s area and Dr. Bell in

Lyndonville York...called the CDC in to investigate the mystery

disease that had disabled many of their previously healthy patients.

>

It shouldn't be forgotten that the CDC was going to drop these

other clusters back into oblivion - and did so.

It was the notoriety of " Yuppie Flu " hitting a mountain resort town

full of " rich whiny folks " that caught the media attention and

forced the CDC to make a token gesture of response. Which led to

the collation of CFS as a syndrome set of complaints.

It should be apparent to ALL by the NON response and " consignment

to the past " that was practiced against all the other cohorts that

some catalyst was needed to break free of the oblivion that the rest

fell into, either by ignorance or intent.

It was the very derision applied to this illness that made the

difference!

" Yuppie Flu " on the front page being switched right into that

laughable " CFS " term made the illness seem trivial, but it was

memorable. People remembered " CFS " when " Infectious

Venulitis " " Icelandic disease " " Tapanui Flu " " Punta

Gorda " " Lyndonville " " Silicon Valley " and all the others had almost

disappeared into history, only to be resurrected when the full

extent of the suppression by the medical establishment was being

investigated by sufferers.

The history of this illness has not been a good one, but the

inalterable fact is that despite attempts at " re-writes " , it's

already happened and cannot be changed, except perhaps on paper.

Some of us haven't forgotten the way it really happened.

-

[Guest guest]

" Blake Graham " wrote:

>

> Hi Katrina,

>

> I was saying that EBV is one possible trigger of CFS. There are

many infectious triggers, and in cases of EBV triggered CFS EBV is

definitely not the sole cause of CFS.

> It is the unique combination of genetic and aquired factors which

cause CFS. Same goes for Autism or other chronic illnesses. Most

people have dysbiosis, chemical exposures, etc. and will never get

CFS. That's not to say these are not important.

>

> I am referring to CFS/ME as described in the canadian case

definition.

>

> Blake

The funny part is that Dr Cheney went out of his way to select

people for the Holmes study who were EBV negative just so

this " Chronic Epsten Barr Virus Syndrome " situation wouldn't happen.

" CFS " was originally based - in part - upon people who did not have

EBV as a deliberate demonstration that EBV was only a consequence

and not the cause of CFS.

So the Canadian Guidelines, in accordance with the original

describers of CFS, do not consider EBV to be a trigger for CFS.

I can speak with authority upon this issue, because this is the

very reason Dr Cheney worked so hard to pursuade me to participate

in the Holmes study group even after I attempted to decline.

-

[Guest guest]

Did you read the abstract I posted about lipopolysaccarides and

endotoxins potentiating other toxins? Anybody who has reflux, or any

of a host of other issues, would experience that potentiation..

Also, 24% of the population has HLA-DR types that indicate elimination

of mold toxins would be slower than 'normal'. 24% is an awfully high

figure to be called 'abnormal'.

That could be at the core of another possible explanation.

Even though its getiing more and more fashionable to blame the

victims, its wrong.. What is the logic in blaming people for getting

ill from TOXINS that have been proven again and again to kill people?

Or trying to avoid theories of causation that step on too many

powerful toes?

I realize the legal implications to the corporate world of mold

toxicity being recognized as one cause of CFS are pretty high, but

that is not a reason to continue our denial if it is killing or

injuring millions of people. Just imagine how many CFSers issues might

improve if they were caused, fully or partially by mold by simply

discovering the hidden mold and remediating it, and then structuring

their lives to avoid mold exposure in the future as much as possible?

Is that thought really that threatening to people here?

What I mean to say is basically - Don't blame the victims..

On 9/6/06, Blake Graham <blanket@...> wrote:

> Hi ,

>

> CFS has to be multi-factorial. I don't doubt that many people in your group

(including you) were perfectly healthy before sudden onset, but there has to be

a reason why only a minority of people don't recovery from the triggering agent,

and most people do. Dr. Shoemakers writes about genetic predispositions to mold

toxiticy. Glutathione depletion also may play a significant role in mold

toxicity. There has to be more than one factor in my opinion, and everyone

combination of factors is unique.

>

> Blake

>

> Re: Predisposing factors for CFS.

>

>

> " Blake Graham " <blanket@...> wrote:

> >

> > Dear list,

> >

> > It is clear that in most cases of true CFS there is an acute viral

> trigger, sometimes bacterial. There is obviously something present

> in these individuals that makes them not recover from acute viral or

> other infections, something causing immune abnormalities. The

> following factors are what I believe these factors include. Each

> person has a number of these factors PRIOR to CFS onset,

> predisposing them:

> > -Poor diet (e.g. excess refined sugar)

> > -Nutrient deficiencies (esp. vitamin D, vitamin A & zinc)

> > -Drugs/medications

> > -Environmental exposures (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals,

> molds, EMF's, etc.)

> > -Psycho-social stress

> > -Inadequate sleep quantity and quality

> > -Dysbiosis, gastrointestinal infections (e.g. parasites, bacteria)

> and leaky gut

> > -A large array of genetic factors which directly or indirectly

> impair immune response

> > -Excess physical activity

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Blake Graham

>

> This is basically what we were told twenty years ago, that we had

> fallen apart from our own weaknesses and excesses, with perhaps a

> stray toxin or virus thrown in.

> But from our perspective, an illness that no one recognized went

> through town and did something that none of these factors were ever

> known to do before.

> -

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Katrina. What's CEBV? All I can think of is chronic Epstein-Barr

virus. Is that right, or is it something else?

Thanks ahead of time again,

in Champaign IL

> Are you addressing CEBV, ME/CFS ( " original " CFS), Fukuda CFS or " CFS-

like " ?

>

> Katrina

>

[Guest guest]

,

>>>chronic Epstein-Barr

> virus.<<<

You are correcto...

Katrina

> > Are you addressing CEBV, ME/CFS ( " original " CFS), Fukuda CFS or " CFS-

> like " ?

> >

> > Katrina

> >

>

[Guest guest]

And since 95% of everyone has it anyway, what this really means is

repeated elevation of the titers...spiking up? Right...or wrong?

What makes infection do that...become elevated or spike up?

> , > >>>chronic Epstein-Barr virus.<<< You are correcto...

>

[Guest guest]

,

We need files here, to refer to for actual ME/CFS Biomedical research! Like

Klimas, or Kenny De on immune function. With part of the immune system " chopped

into pieces " (kenny De) and killer cells sluggish and others overreacting, and

some at completely cock-eyed ratio....

the immune system cannot do it's normal job...keep invaders or latents at bay.

Reading about normal immune function is very cool. It's an entire Military

regiment, with everyone playing a specific part...there are the sentries, the

1st line defense, back-ups, all kinds of platoons and fighting roles to play.

Remember how people with AIDS get all of the opportunistic infections? We

already have tons of buggies in our bodies...but they just hang around and don't

bother us as long as our Military

keeps them nice and quiet or dying.

Same with all the foreign invaders...all kinds of Pathogens, Mycotoxins, Man

Made poisons, carcinogenics.

The skin is actually the 1st line of immune defense.

We have alot in our systems " normally " ....yeast, chlamydia, for instance (among

thousands).

AIDS patient used to have horrible thrush (yeast) flare-ups in mouth

I am saying all this " used to " becasue the HIV drug cocktails changed things for

SOME. The Pneumonias and Cancers that they die(d) of are already around...but

were rare to be killing so many. It's because their Army (T-Cells) are actually

killed off....suposedly by HIV virus itself. Ours (Army, immune sytem) is here

but really deranged, injured, or half asleep.

Then there's the sticky blood gumming up the works. Impairing mobility. ANd low

blood flow, slowing down traffic. ANd malfunctioning Mitochondria, weakening

everyone.

Hosts of other " slightly off " functions.

A person can be born with these damages or lacks, or a major attack can injure

individual soldiers or the whole regiment...by active viruses,

poisons, bacteria. Some mount full frontal assault and some are sneaky little

bastards..they know how where to hide from the soldiers, or morph into something

familiar looking, there might be " stealth " viruses.

They can move into cells like pirates...take over the cell..or program the cell

to commit suicide...devious, eh?

Some buggies/poisons can slaughter any Army, or get straight to an organ or the

bloodstream (look at the Crockodile hunter and the Sting Ray...straight to the

heart).

Others are just going to annoy and irritate...hay fever??

Oh, then some of the weaponry are called cytocines...the pain of flu is

cytocines fighting the bug. So are we constantly fighting a bug? Or are the

Cytocines just constantly turned on from some previous high level attack and

they're going berserk...also not at optimal function, or in co-ordination with

the rest.

We treat all parts of the terrain...boost microcirculation, unstick (thin) the

blood, raise the enzymes that operate the Mitochondria,

(Glutathione, Catalese?, SOD), Balance the immune function (immune modulators)

or flat out kill the bugs. MJH uses a nice melissa tincture for Herpes viruses.

So, there are the latents and the invaders (some become latents). And the

multitudes and functions that keep us safe, or heal us.

Some have been looking at this for 20 years...what do they see??? What do they

say???

Jay Levy almost had a blood test marker in early 90s. Elaine de Frietas patented

a retrovirus...alot of patents out there on discovered occupants of our bodies.

We know some of the invaders who have been here or are still attacking. Some we

do not. I have the Ciguatera epitope...some toxin hypothosised to be

manufactured by a bug...the epitope poison is messing with lipids,liver, ion

channels???

Sometimes the fight is too rough or fast...antibiotics, antivirals, ImmunoPro?

the bugs are running too fast and the fight is hurting the Host...you and me....

um, ok I'll stop now since I have butchered Science and Military, royally

THere is TONS more...

But hope you got a general idea. I used to know more specifics, and this is why

I want to know what people have looked at our ME/CFS bodies and blood say...what

happened/what's happening now/what can be done

about it.

I'm going to take a few healers right now for each of these functions...

Don't laugh toooo hard,

Katrina

> > , > >>>chronic Epstein-Barr virus.<<< You are correcto...

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Cheney and others' work that was unraveling the EBV theory is in Osler's

Web...in 87?...right before the meeting to name the epidemic...of a

" syndrome " ...a collection of symptoms...88, Holmes def.--- Strauss had

hung his career on EBV/Causal. And was pretty darned PO'd.

It seems that the 88 Holmes def incorporated EBV just enough to still cover

that...not lettin' go easy. But obviously, it wasn't or they would have kept

calling it Epstein Barr Virus!!!

Instead of that winner of a name...Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Even tho ME aware

Scientists walked out and said you are dooming the patients...you are dooming

the research!

Our punishment? for not being EBV caused?

At least we had a name!!

But, Don't tell ALL of the symptoms, and throw us to the fishies and comedians

and Psychologisers. It WAS supposed to be just enough to do research

---nice plan if they had done it...or before the Shrinks took over the field as

in the funding/publishing of " CFS " studies...leaving the heavy hitters...Levy,

Klimas Cheney, , Kennny de, etc etc (others we don't even know) either

pleading for money, kicked out of their labs. joining up with

Govt/psychs,working in private....while we crave to know their findings OR curse

them for corruption and they haven't cured US YET!!!!

And have to make up our own fill-in-the-blanks.

Or mis quote them...

We're not even looking at them...but we are looking at the

Shrink-co-authored...they get the funding...and serve to verify popular Societal

myths.

(Like we maybe had a virus...but it's gone now, and something is keeping us

sick...and " Lying/imagining " that we are very sick...to get out of work...to get

attention/sympathy it gets lol

That something, they continue to insist responds best to Cognitive Behavorial

Therapy and Graded Exercise therapy...

Someone said they do not believe we have shrinking grey matter...well, beleive

it because a new study may be to use CBT as the *treatment*

to reverse shrinking grey matter!!!

Katrina

In , " erikmoldwarrior " <erikmoldwarrior@...>

wrote:

>

> " Blake Graham " wrote:

> >

> > Hi Katrina,

> >

> > I was saying that EBV is one possible trigger of CFS. There are

> many infectious triggers, and in cases of EBV triggered CFS EBV is

> definitely not the sole cause of CFS.

> > It is the unique combination of genetic and aquired factors which

> cause CFS. Same goes for Autism or other chronic illnesses. Most

> people have dysbiosis, chemical exposures, etc. and will never get

> CFS. That's not to say these are not important.

> >

> > I am referring to CFS/ME as described in the canadian case

> definition.

> >

> > Blake

>

>

> The funny part is that Dr Cheney went out of his way to select

> people for the Holmes study who were EBV negative just so

> this " Chronic Epsten Barr Virus Syndrome " situation wouldn't happen.

> " CFS " was originally based - in part - upon people who did not have

> EBV as a deliberate demonstration that EBV was only a consequence

> and not the cause of CFS.

> So the Canadian Guidelines, in accordance with the original

> describers of CFS, do not consider EBV to be a trigger for CFS.

> I can speak with authority upon this issue, because this is the

> very reason Dr Cheney worked so hard to pursuade me to participate

> in the Holmes study group even after I attempted to decline.

> -

>

[Guest guest]

I'm not laughing, Katrina. Not even about the " sneaky little

bastards " ...who've been the story of my life...in more ways than

one.

Reminds me...I gotta see if the Gaia is made from fresh

.

Thanks, Katrina.

> Don't laugh toooo hard,

>

> Katrina

[Guest guest]

gosh I wish my brain would work and let me recall where I read about several

genes discovered recently which would account for a predisposition to CFS

because of their body's abnormal reaction to stress. Anyone know what I'm

talking about?

Re: Predisposing factors for CFS.

>>>I was referring to recovering from the triggering agent (e.g. Epstein

Barr)<<<<

Am I missing something?

Tho Strauss of the NIH believed and said for years that the disease

was EBV, that theory was unraveling just as the CDC was meeting to make up a

name for the epidemic.

{See " Osler's Web " }

It is now believed that CFS patients who have high antibodies to EBV, are in

" response " (as in " opportunistic " ) to " the disease...CFS " , as opposed to it

being cause.

According to the CDC, EBV is found in about 90% of adults in the U.S.

Maybe I misunderstood what your statement meant.

Of course we all have some of those factors, and more everyday in this world.

But why do others with those same factors, genetics, or stress level, or all,

not have this bizarre illness?

Are you addressing CEBV, ME/CFS ( " original " CFS), Fukuda CFS or " CFS-like " ?

Katrina

> > >

> > > Dear list,

> > >

> > > It is clear that in most cases of true CFS there is an acute viral

> > trigger, sometimes bacterial. There is obviously something present

> > in these individuals that makes them not recover from acute viral or

> > other infections, something causing immune abnormalities. The

> > following factors are what I believe these factors include. Each

> > person has a number of these factors PRIOR to CFS onset,

> > predisposing them:

> > > -Poor diet (e.g. excess refined sugar)

> > > -Nutrient deficiencies (esp. vitamin D, vitamin A & zinc)

> > > -Drugs/medications

> > > -Environmental exposures (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals,

> > molds, EMF's, etc.)

> > > -Psycho-social stress

> > > -Inadequate sleep quantity and quality

> > > -Dysbiosis, gastrointestinal infections (e.g. parasites, bacteria)

> > and leaky gut

> > > -A large array of genetic factors which directly or indirectly

> > impair immune response

> > > -Excess physical activity

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > > Blake Graham

> >

> > This is basically what we were told twenty years ago, that we had

> > fallen apart from our own weaknesses and excesses, with perhaps a

> > stray toxin or virus thrown in.

> > But from our perspective, an illness that no one recognized went

> > through town and did something that none of these factors were ever

> > known to do before.

> > -

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

that would be the Wichita studies conducted by the CDC. There were 14 papers

that came out of that group.

HEre's an interesting example of various " spins " . You remember it as " poor

response to stress "

Klimas has an article in MS, that they found important gene abnormalities

connected to CNS and Immune System.

The Press Conference said it was the 1st proof that CFS is a real disease...yet

there have been many studies that show organic abnormailites (about 2000).

Cort, on this list has them on his website and seems to feel pretty positive

about them. I think he said that, but I have not read on his site.

Also WHO were they studying? People who did not know they had CFS or " anything " .

That is not remotely similar, as presented, to what I have. They use the Fukuda

definition, which is watered down from when they first named the disease...and

now it's watered down more becasue they now use fukuda CFS and " CFS-Like " . Wat

does that mean? Now everyone is saying that.

Reeves,who has been in charge of CFS CDC work for years, and has been

known to mock patients...

said these studies are exciting becasue they can lead to treatment such as

" Cognitive Behavioral Therapy and/or medications " .

What??

And mentions the CBT Clinics in the UK. Well, the CBT Clinics in the UK believe

that people's dysfunctional response to stress...being out in the world,

etc....is a false belief that they are too ill to be working, etc. and the only

block to getting well. They have to change their thinking. And they administer

graded exercise therapy. this would be fine for " tired " people, de-conditioned

people, who " think " they are ill.

FOr someone with true ME/CFS it can do horrific damage, lead to severe relapse.

But don't take my word for it. ASk someone in the UK.

There is a CDC study on CBT Rehabilitation Clinics for CFS patients. IS this

what they plan to offer us? Bolstered by theses studies?

In the UK, people are co-erced or forced to go to keep their benefits.

Dr. Enlander and Dr. Kerr do not feel they were sufficient to come to such

conclusions.

(They will be doing Gene Expression Studies soon on 1000 patients. The New York

portion will be named after Breckinridge, a memeber of our list who died

suddenly in Dec 05...a patient of Dr. Enlander's.

These papers are on CoCure...and some commentary is on CoCure...April or June

06. I can't remember the journal name to search under...Pharma

something...search genes journal pharma 06

On Co Cure.

Dr. Enlander said he thinks Wm Reeves is trying to prove what he has always

said/thought...that CFS is Psychological.

Others have more to say, I'm sure.

CFS Lists all over the place had some discussions on the subject.

BW,

Katrina

> >

> > Hi Katrina,

> >

> > I was referring to recovering from the triggering agent (e.g. Epstein

Barr), not saying the majority of people recover from CFS. For example like in

the Dubbo study's rich has posted about, the majority of people recover from the

acute infection, while a small group go on to get long term CFS.

> >

> > There are certainly other factors I did not mention that could predispose

to post-infectious CFS. It is impossible to rule out all these factors. We all

have some nutrient imbalances, some heavy metals, some pesticides & dysbiosis,

factors which can impair immune response and cause non-recovery from acute

infections.

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

> > Blake

> >

> > Re: Predisposing factors for CFS.

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear group,

> >

> > While always says this " went

> > through (his) town " , becasue that is what he personally

experienced...please keep in mind, the same " thing " went through many other

cities and regions across the country.

> >

> > The year that " it " hit me was 1985...the year that Dr.s Cheney and

, in Incline Village/s area and Dr. Bell in Lyndonville

York...called the CDC in to investigate the mystery disease

[Guest guest]

That is critical as the antiviral properties are only there when tinctured

with FRESH melissa.

mjh

" The Basil Book "

_http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/_ (http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/)

Reminds me...I gotta see if the Gaia is made from fresh

.

Thanks, Katrina.

[Guest guest]

What??

And mentions the CBT Clinics in the UK. Well, the CBT Clinics in the UK believe

that people's dysfunctional response to stress...being out in the world,

etc....is a false belief that they are too ill to be working, etc. and the only

block to getting well. They have to change their thinking. And they administer

graded exercise therapy. this would be fine for " tired " people, de-conditioned

people, who " think " they are ill.

FOr someone with true ME/CFS it can do horrific damage, lead to severe relapse.

But don't take my word for it. ASk someone in the UK. Katrina

Thanks Katrina, I'll track that down. This psychological and the new age stuff

really bugs me. Why not blame the victim some more? Like, who chooses to be this

sick? They did graded exercise studies in Australia and had to abandon the idea,

for obvious reasons. One woman I spoke to had a relapse big time. When I first

became ill this well meaning friend of mine came round to tell me first, " well

you don't look that sick. " then " if you just think positive you'll get well. All

that lying around only makes it worse. " One occupational therapist told me the

sooner I got back to work the better. I couldn't sit upright in his chair, I was

so exhausted. Oh but we've all heard these stories, and still the so called

experts persist. If it was that easy to get well - hey I'd be first in the

queue.

Used to be that I was chosen for the most stressful jobs because I managed

crisis so well. I remember as I was being run ragged by my ADHD kids the

psychologist told me it was amazing, I was so placid. How did I manage so well?

So this CBT stuff, whilst I can see the merit in it's use (I'm a qualified

counsellor) when another so called expert on my body implies that it is a

cure-all, it gets under my skin.

Re: Predisposing factors for CFS.

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear group,

> >

> > While always says this " went

> > through (his) town " , becasue that is what he personally

experienced...please keep in mind, the same " thing " went through many other

cities and regions across the country.

> >

> > The year that " it " hit me was 1985...the year that Dr.s Cheney and

, in Incline Village/s area and Dr. Bell in Lyndonville

York...called the CDC in to investigate the mystery disease

[Guest guest]

One of my favorites was " Well, I think you don't drink enough water. "

(Say...what?) My mother's was " You just don't live right. " (And YOU

do? ) Ohhh, it never ends, does it.

> When I first became ill this well meaning friend of mine came round

to tell me first, " well you don't look that sick. " then " if you just

think positive you'll get well. All that lying around only makes it

worse. " implies that it is a cure-all, it gets under my skin.

>