Re: Diastolic Cardiomyopathy - How do you find out?

[Guest guest]

Cheney does two tests, impedance and echo, and does them both with a

tilt table. My heart looks almost normal lying down, but gets bad

when I am tilted upright. So a regular cardiologist is liable to miss

this problem if they don't have the proper equipment and a tilt table.

Helen

>

> Hi all!

>

> Next week I want to meet a cardiologist. I know we had some threads

> about diastolic cardiomyopathy but there are still some questions I

> have.

> Dr. Cheney will talk about his latest research on September 9th but

> he confuses me a little bit:

>

> " **Diastolic Dysfunction in CFS

> Due to a lack of energy at the cellular level the hearts of CFS

> patients

> don't fill properly with blood; this is further complicated when

> patients stand. Ninety-nine percent of Dr. Cheney's CFS patients

> test

> positive for diastolic dysfunction via echocardiograms (sonograms

of

> the

> heart). "

>

> I don't get it! Now he recommends echocardiograms of the heart but

> in order to find out if you have idiopathic cardiomyopathy you need

> to do an impedance cardiography as he says here:

> http://www.dfwcfids.org/medical/cheney/hrt04lng.htm

>

> So he speaks about two different things? Diatolic dysfunction and

> cardiomyopathy are not the same?

>

> To make it short, what tests does the cardiologist actually have to

> do in order to find out if the cardiac output is too low?

> Dr. Cheney speaks about the Q problem all the time but

unfortunately

> there is no list of tests that should be done (e.g. Impedance-

> cardiography + BNP).

>

> Cheney also says something about PFO and I wondered if anyone can

> tell me the difference to a Trikuspidal-flaps-insufficiency (that

> would be the word for word translation), first degree.

> I was diagnosed with that 2 years ago but it's not severe. The

funny

> thing is that it was diagnosed with a echocardiogram. But I doubt

> that they measured cardiac output as well, moreover is was lying

> down all the time and if I remember right the cardiac output

problem

> can be measured best when you are standing.

>

> **Patent Foramen Ovales in CFS

> A PFO is a flap-valve that allows blood to flow between the two

> upper

> chambers of the heart. Present in babies before they are born, it

> usually seals shut after birth but remains in up to 20% of normal

> adults

> in whom it can open under certain rare conditions. PFO's are

> unusually

> common in CFS, with up to 80% of patients testing positive. The

> presence

> of a PFO in CFS can be very problematic. The underlying reason for

> the

> increase in PFO's in CFS may be the underlying energy deficits at

> the

> cellular level. Dr. Cheney believes that PFO closure in CFS poses

> certain risks and there are indications that his treatment protocol

> may

> make such a procedure unnecessary for most patients. "

>

> Looking forward to reading your answers.

>

> Greets

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, .

See my responses below.

>

> Hi all!

>

> Next week I want to meet a cardiologist.

***I hope that goes well.

I know we had some threads

> about diastolic cardiomyopathy but there are still some questions

I

> have.

> Dr. Cheney will talk about his latest research on September 9th

but

> he confuses me a little bit:

>

> " **Diastolic Dysfunction in CFS

> Due to a lack of energy at the cellular level the hearts of CFS

> patients

> don't fill properly with blood; this is further complicated when

> patients stand. Ninety-nine percent of Dr. Cheney's CFS patients

> test

> positive for diastolic dysfunction via echocardiograms (sonograms

of

> the

> heart). "

>

> I don't get it! Now he recommends echocardiograms of the heart but

> in order to find out if you have idiopathic cardiomyopathy you

need

> to do an impedance cardiography as he says here:

> http://www.dfwcfids.org/medical/cheney/hrt04lng.htm

>

> So he speaks about two different things? Diatolic dysfunction and

> cardiomyopathy are not the same?

***Cardiomyopathy means that there is a disease of the heart muscle.

***Idiopathic cardiomyopathy means that there is a disease of the

heart muscle, and the cause of it is not known.

***Among the idiopathic cardiomyopathies, there are the dilated,

restrictive and hypertrophic cardiomyopathies.

***Diastolic dysfunction is a restrictive cardiomyopathy. In this

condition, the left ventricle fills with a smaller volume of blood

than normal during the diastolic phase of the heart's cycle, so that

the cardiac output is less than normal.

***Dr. Cheney believes that the heart muscle cells have an energy

problem in CFS, which produces the diastolic dysfunction that he

sees in his patients. It is known that if the rate of production of

ATP by the mitochondria of the heart muscle cells is too low, the

heart muscle will not be able to relax fast enough to allow a normal

amount of blood to enter the left ventricle during the time

available in the diastolic phase of the heart cycle. He is

exploring the reason why the rate of production of ATP is too slow.

***In my opinion, for what it's worth, the problem in the

mitochondria of the heart muscle cells in CFS is that there has been

a systemic depletion of glutathione. This eventually causes a

partial blockade in the Krebs cycle of these mitochondria, and

buildup of toxins and infections as a result of glutathione

depletion contribute additional problems that cause mitochondrial

dysfunction, as is being seen in the ATP Profile test and the

Translocator Protein test offered by Biolab Medical Unit in London,

U.K.

>

> To make it short, what tests does the cardiologist actually have

to

> do in order to find out if the cardiac output is too low?

***The most noninvasive way to do this is with impedance

cardiography. There are other, older methods that involve use of

catheters, radioactive isotopes, and other approaches.

> Dr. Cheney speaks about the Q problem all the time but

unfortunately

> there is no list of tests that should be done (e.g. Impedance-

> cardiography + BNP).

Q stands for cardiac output, and impedance cardiography is a good

way to measure it.

>

> Cheney also says something about PFO and I wondered if anyone can

> tell me the difference to a Trikuspidal-flaps-insufficiency (that

> would be the word for word translation), first degree.

> I was diagnosed with that 2 years ago but it's not severe. The

funny

> thing is that it was diagnosed with a echocardiogram. But I doubt

> that they measured cardiac output as well, moreover is was lying

> down all the time and if I remember right the cardiac output

problem

> can be measured best when you are standing.

***The tricuspid valve is the valve between the right atrium and the

right ventricle. What you are describing is a problem with the

flaps of this valve. That is a different thing from the PFO, which

is a flap valve between the right atrium and the left atrium.

***Echocardiography is a good method to examine the structure of the

heart, including the valves, and to measure its ejection fraction,

which is the fraction of blood that comes into the left ventricle

during the diastolic phase that actually gets pumped out during the

systolic phase. Although the cardiac output can be estimated using

echocardiography, it is not a precise way to measure it, as

impedance cardiography is. The newer echocardiographs, such as the

General Electric Vivid 7 machine, are able to characterize

parameters associated with diastolic cardiomyopathy.

***For a complete characterization of cardiac output, diastolic

cardiomyopathy and PFO, both impedance cardiography, such as with a

Cardiodynamics machine, and echocardiography, such as with a General

Electric Vivid 7 machine, are needed.

> Patent Foramen Ovales in CFS

> A PFO is a flap-valve that allows blood to flow between the two

> upper

> chambers of the heart. Present in babies before they are born, it

> usually seals shut after birth but remains in up to 20% of normal

> adults

> in whom it can open under certain rare conditions. PFO's are

> unusually

> common in CFS, with up to 80% of patients testing positive. The

> presence

> of a PFO in CFS can be very problematic. The underlying reason for

> the

> increase in PFO's in CFS may be the underlying energy deficits at

> the

> cellular level. Dr. Cheney believes that PFO closure in CFS poses

> certain risks and there are indications that his treatment protocol

> may

> make such a procedure unnecessary for most patients. "

>

> Looking forward to reading your answers.

>

> Greets

>

>

>

***Rich

[Guest guest]

Wow :-)

Thanks for the detailed, scientific answer and the time you needed to

write it down, Rich.

Knowledge is such a wonderful thing and I really admire you for yours.

And Helen I thank you as well of course. I will try to find a

cardiologist with a tilt table and impedance cardiograph.

Greets

[Guest guest]

> >

> > Hi all!

> >

> > Next week I want to meet a cardiologist. I know we had some

threads

> > about diastolic cardiomyopathy but there are still some questions

I

> > have.

> > Dr. Cheney will talk about his latest research on September 9th

but

> > he confuses me a little bit:

> >

> > " **Diastolic Dysfunction in CFS

> > Due to a lack of energy at the cellular level the hearts of CFS

> > patients

> > don't fill properly with blood; this is further complicated when

> > patients stand. Ninety-nine percent of Dr. Cheney's CFS patients

> > test

> > positive for diastolic dysfunction via echocardiograms (sonograms

> of

> > the

> > heart). "

> >

> > I don't get it! Now he recommends echocardiograms of the heart

but

> > in order to find out if you have idiopathic cardiomyopathy you

need

> > to do an impedance cardiography as he says here:

> > http://www.dfwcfids.org/medical/cheney/hrt04lng.htm

> >

> > So he speaks about two different things? Diatolic dysfunction and

> > cardiomyopathy are not the same?

> >

> > To make it short, what tests does the cardiologist actually have

to

> > do in order to find out if the cardiac output is too low?

> > Dr. Cheney speaks about the Q problem all the time but

> unfortunately

> > there is no list of tests that should be done (e.g. Impedance-

> > cardiography + BNP).

> >

> > Cheney also says something about PFO and I wondered if anyone can

> > tell me the difference to a Trikuspidal-flaps-insufficiency (that

> > would be the word for word translation), first degree.

> > I was diagnosed with that 2 years ago but it's not severe. The

> funny

> > thing is that it was diagnosed with a echocardiogram. But I doubt

> > that they measured cardiac output as well, moreover is was lying

> > down all the time and if I remember right the cardiac output

> problem

> > can be measured best when you are standing.

> >

> > **Patent Foramen Ovales in CFS

> > A PFO is a flap-valve that allows blood to flow between the two

> > upper

> > chambers of the heart. Present in babies before they are born, it

> > usually seals shut after birth but remains in up to 20% of normal

> > adults

> > in whom it can open under certain rare conditions. PFO's are

> > unusually

> > common in CFS, with up to 80% of patients testing positive. The

> > presence

> > of a PFO in CFS can be very problematic. The underlying reason for

> > the

> > increase in PFO's in CFS may be the underlying energy deficits at

> > the

> > cellular level. Dr. Cheney believes that PFO closure in CFS poses

> > certain risks and there are indications that his treatment

protocol

> > may

> > make such a procedure unnecessary for most patients. "

> >

> > Looking forward to reading your answers.

> >

> > Greets

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

> >

> > Hi all!

> >

> > Next week I want to meet a cardiologist. I know we had some

threads

> > about diastolic cardiomyopathy but there are still some questions

I

> > have.

> > Dr. Cheney will talk about his latest research on September 9th

but

> > he confuses me a little bit:

> >

> > " **Diastolic Dysfunction in CFS

> > Due to a lack of energy at the cellular level the hearts of CFS

> > patients

> > don't fill properly with blood; this is further complicated when

> > patients stand. Ninety-nine percent of Dr. Cheney's CFS patients

> > test

> > positive for diastolic dysfunction via echocardiograms (sonograms

> of

> > the

> > heart). "

> >

> > I don't get it! Now he recommends echocardiograms of the heart

but

> > in order to find out if you have idiopathic cardiomyopathy you

need

> > to do an impedance cardiography as he says here:

> > http://www.dfwcfids.org/medical/cheney/hrt04lng.htm

> >

> > So he speaks about two different things? Diatolic dysfunction and

> > cardiomyopathy are not the same?

> >

> > To make it short, what tests does the cardiologist actually have

to

> > do in order to find out if the cardiac output is too low?

> > Dr. Cheney speaks about the Q problem all the time but

> unfortunately

> > there is no list of tests that should be done (e.g. Impedance-

> > cardiography + BNP).

> >

> > Cheney also says something about PFO and I wondered if anyone can

> > tell me the difference to a Trikuspidal-flaps-insufficiency (that

> > would be the word for word translation), first degree.

> > I was diagnosed with that 2 years ago but it's not severe. The

> funny

> > thing is that it was diagnosed with a echocardiogram. But I doubt

> > that they measured cardiac output as well, moreover is was lying

> > down all the time and if I remember right the cardiac output

> problem

> > can be measured best when you are standing.

> >

> > **Patent Foramen Ovales in CFS

> > A PFO is a flap-valve that allows blood to flow between the two

> > upper

> > chambers of the heart. Present in babies before they are born, it

> > usually seals shut after birth but remains in up to 20% of normal

> > adults

> > in whom it can open under certain rare conditions. PFO's are

> > unusually

> > common in CFS, with up to 80% of patients testing positive. The

> > presence

> > of a PFO in CFS can be very problematic. The underlying reason for

> > the

> > increase in PFO's in CFS may be the underlying energy deficits at

> > the

> > cellular level. Dr. Cheney believes that PFO closure in CFS poses

> > certain risks and there are indications that his treatment

protocol

> > may

> > make such a procedure unnecessary for most patients. "

> >

> > Looking forward to reading your answers.

> >

> > Greets

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, .

You're very welcome. A good way to find a cardiologist who has an

impedance cardiograph near you is to phone Cardiodynamics in San

Diego, CA, give the name of your city or cities near you, and ask

who has their machine. Their number is 1-800-778-4825. Punch zero,

and the woman who answers can give you names, addresses and phone

numbers of doctors or clinics who have the machine. Then you can

phone them and see if they have a tilt table. If they don't, you

can still ask them to check you lying down, sitting, and standing,

with a short wait in between, if you can tolerate that. That will

tell you what you need to know about your cardiac output.

Rich

>

> Wow :-)

>

> Thanks for the detailed, scientific answer and the time you needed

to

> write it down, Rich.

> Knowledge is such a wonderful thing and I really admire you for

yours.

>

> And Helen I thank you as well of course. I will try to find a

> cardiologist with a tilt table and impedance cardiograph.

>

> Greets

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

have none of these problems, get short of breath upon minor exertion

Helen

> > >

> > > Hi all!

> > >

> > > Next week I want to meet a cardiologist. I know we had some

> threads

> > > about diastolic cardiomyopathy but there are still some

questions

> I

> > > have.

> > > Dr. Cheney will talk about his latest research on September 9th

> but

> > > he confuses me a little bit:

> > >

> > > " **Diastolic Dysfunction in CFS

> > > Due to a lack of energy at the cellular level the hearts of CFS

> > > patients

> > > don't fill properly with blood; this is further complicated

when

> > > patients stand. Ninety-nine percent of Dr. Cheney's CFS

patients

> > > test

> > > positive for diastolic dysfunction via echocardiograms

(sonograms

> > of

> > > the

> > > heart). "

> > >

> > > I don't get it! Now he recommends echocardiograms of the heart

> but

> > > in order to find out if you have idiopathic cardiomyopathy you

> need

> > > to do an impedance cardiography as he says here:

> > > http://www.dfwcfids.org/medical/cheney/hrt04lng.htm

> > >

> > > So he speaks about two different things? Diatolic dysfunction

and

> > > cardiomyopathy are not the same?

> > >

> > > To make it short, what tests does the cardiologist actually

have

> to

> > > do in order to find out if the cardiac output is too low?

> > > Dr. Cheney speaks about the Q problem all the time but

> > unfortunately

> > > there is no list of tests that should be done (e.g. Impedance-

> > > cardiography + BNP).

> > >

> > > Cheney also says something about PFO and I wondered if anyone

can

> > > tell me the difference to a Trikuspidal-flaps-insufficiency

(that

> > > would be the word for word translation), first degree.

> > > I was diagnosed with that 2 years ago but it's not severe. The

> > funny

> > > thing is that it was diagnosed with a echocardiogram. But I

doubt

> > > that they measured cardiac output as well, moreover is was

lying

> > > down all the time and if I remember right the cardiac output

> > problem

> > > can be measured best when you are standing.

> > >

> > > **Patent Foramen Ovales in CFS

> > > A PFO is a flap-valve that allows blood to flow between the two

> > > upper

> > > chambers of the heart. Present in babies before they are born,

it

> > > usually seals shut after birth but remains in up to 20% of

normal

> > > adults

> > > in whom it can open under certain rare conditions. PFO's are

> > > unusually

> > > common in CFS, with up to 80% of patients testing positive. The

> > > presence

> > > of a PFO in CFS can be very problematic. The underlying reason

for

> > > the

> > > increase in PFO's in CFS may be the underlying energy deficits

at

> > > the

> > > cellular level. Dr. Cheney believes that PFO closure in CFS

poses

> > > certain risks and there are indications that his treatment

> protocol

> > > may

> > > make such a procedure unnecessary for most patients. "

> > >

> > > Looking forward to reading your answers.

> > >

> > > Greets

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I have high blood pressure and heart rate. I take lisinopril . My resting

heart rate is 91. They say to ignore it, it's no problem. I get dizzy spells

sometimes too.

Carol in NY

[Guest guest]

Hi, Rich.

Thanks for your advice, unfortunately I live in Germany and it

almost seems impossible to find a good doctor who knows at least

half of what Dr. Cheney or you know about CFS (in case you know any

doctor here please let me know :-).

>If they don't, you

> can still ask them to check you lying down, sitting, and standing,

> with a short wait in between, if you can tolerate that.

What do you consider as short wait? Would it be best to keep it as

short as possible?

Greets

> >

> > Wow :-)

> >

> > Thanks for the detailed, scientific answer and the time you

needed

> to

> > write it down, Rich.

> > Knowledge is such a wonderful thing and I really admire you for

> yours.

> >

> > And Helen I thank you as well of course. I will try to find a

> > cardiologist with a tilt table and impedance cardiograph.

> >

> > Greets

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, .

I would say that the wait would depend on what you can tolerate. I

realize that many PWCs have orthostatic intolerance, and can't stand

very long. If you can stand five minutes, that would be good, I

think. If not, then less time. I think that the main thing is to

allow your circulatory system to adapt to the new position before

running the test. A tilt table can be used, also, and that would

probably be better, if available.

Rich

> > >

> > > Wow :-)

> > >

> > > Thanks for the detailed, scientific answer and the time you

> needed

> > to

> > > write it down, Rich.

> > > Knowledge is such a wonderful thing and I really admire you

for

> > yours.

> > >

> > > And Helen I thank you as well of course. I will try to find a

> > > cardiologist with a tilt table and impedance cardiograph.

> > >

> > > Greets

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>