Re: HCl, the burp test, gastric reflux, and low stomach acid

[Guest guest]

Very well written post.

I had the mechanisms of high acid v low acid explained to me once-

and why the symptoms are the same but I don't think I can recount

them accurately now. Suffice it to say- they are the same and in

order for Docs to tell if it's high or low, an invasive test has to

be done to sample the actual gastric juices.

My husband has a touch of low acid- and is bothered from time to

time. The literature mentions as we age, we produce less acid- so

digestive problems become more common.

I've done a fair amount of reading on the subject- and it appears

when raising the acid by pill (HCL caps) it's hard to control the

dose with the acid capsules, and it was suggested that my huband

change his eating habits as a first try.

The change in his eating habits had to do with understanding how the

acid is produced- and the habits more with the WAY he ate, and when

he ate, and how long it took to eat.

Salivation is the first test in producing acid. So I guess

appetizers ARE good for something.

In any case- he alleviated his problem with knowing what to eat

when, preparing your brain for food, and to eat slowly. There are

specific foods that digest better at certain times of the day

(stomach acid isn't the same in the am as Pm) . If that didn't work,

he was going to try some digestive aids (enzymes) prior to eating.

So- maybe this will work for you - if your problem is truly low acid

(certainly sounds like that's the case).

Good luck.

Barb

>

> Hi all,

>

> In the last few days I've been looking into issues of low stomach

> acidity as a possible cause or factor in various gastric problems

I've

> had over the last few years including gastric reflux, bad digestion

and

> a particularly nasty spate of probably parasitic infection last

year.

> I'd be very interested if anyone has any personal experience on

> self-treatment or updated information on reliable diagnostic tools.

> I know in the past Rich and others has posted some useful

suggestions

> for this, which I've gone back and read.

>

> Background - I've had ME/CFS for 13 years and about 4 years ago I

> developed uncomfortable gastric reflux - more than a lump in the

> chest feeling, more a nasty burning sensation particularly at night.

> This met with the usual GP's diagnosis of excess stomach acid, and

> the usual prescription of a proton-pump inhibitor (PPI), in my case

> Lansoprazole, which worked, in the sense that the reflux went away,

> returning any day I didn't pop the pill. I never liked it much

though:

> the idea that if there's an excess of something, just suppress it

> without explanation.

>

> Two years ago my stomach turned very nasty (chronic periodic

diarrhea

> and disabling stomach cramps lasting days on end), accompanied by a

> fairly catastrophic relapse in health, that's left me house/bed-

bound

> since then. This was eventually thought to be due to Blastocystis

> Hominis by a private doctor, I took a whopping course of antibiotics

> (because it's notororiously hard to kill) and over a long trailing

> period my stomach symptoms mostly improved. I still can't however

> tolerate sucrose and I have occasional bad episodes.

>

> At the same time I went on a very restricted diet, and my reflux

nearly

> instantly disappeared - I stopped taking my PPIs as I didn't need to

> take them. My diet's relaxed now, but with my reflux not returned

in

> anything but very occasional mild appearances - I can only put this

down

> the lack of sugar in my diet, I guess.

>

> Anyway, I've been reading up on the theory that many or even most

> cases of reflux may be caused by *low* stomach acidity, rather than

> high - not quite understanding how, but I think the body reacts to

the

> low acidity in a way that causes reflux symptoms identical to having

> high acidity in the first place. I'm still unsure how orthodox this

> theory is. Although I don't currently have a reflux problem, I'm

> much more concerned with whether I do have a low acidity problem,

and

> those blasted PPIs just excerbated it, lowering my gastric system's

> ability to fight off bacterial infections - which may have either

> helped the parasites to grow, or helped opportunistic bacterial

> infections to foster.

>

> So I did as suggested by performing two home tests in the last few

days:

>

> 1) The burp test: 1/4 teaspoon of bicarbonate of soda on waking -

> and time when you burp. Someone with normal acidity should burp

> within 2 minutes as a reaction between the bicarb and the acid.

> I tried this twice and didn't burp for 20-30 minutes! My partner

> (who's well) took 3 minutes.

>

> 2) Try incremental supplementations with Betaine HCl (hydrochloric

acid)

> - on an empty stomach, one the first morning, see if I feel any

gastric

> symptoms, two the next morning etc.; and to back off when I get any

> symptoms, concluding that the amount of HCl I took on the previous

day

> is the " correct " one for me. So far I'm up to taking 2x600mg HCl

this

> morning, and noticed little or no reaction in terms of burning

sensation

> or reflux. The type I'm taking is Biocare's HCl + Pepsin. The

theory

> is that this will then work out your " correct " dosage of HCl per

meal.

>

> Can anyone tell me if I'm doing this right, and the results of

> these two tests are reliable, in the sense that it appears that they

> really do indicate that I've had low rather than high stomach

acidity

> all along? Or if not, if there are more reliable tests? How

reliable

> is test 2 above, in that if I don't react to 2x600mg HCl on an empty

> stomach, I should really be going as far as supplementing 3x600mg

per

> meal, three times a day?

>

> Also, can anyone tell me if they've been successful in relieving

> gastric problems by supplementing with HCl? Has it helped anyone's

> digestion, reflux, or resistance to bacterial infections?

>

> Finally, is there anything else I should be taking with it? Could I

> do any harm by taking HCl self-prescribed? I ask the latter

because I

> suspect what my family doctor's response would be if I ask - to

shrug

> and refer me to the local gastric clinic, with a months-long wait,

> who will tut a lot.

>

> I've asked a lot of questions - sorry! But I'd be grateful for any

> response, anecdotal or otherwise.

>

> Honey

>

[Guest guest]

Low stomach acid seems to be a wide spread problem for many people

who have CFS and digestion problems.

As I understood it, the reason for reflux in case of low stomach

acid is that the stomach refuses to pass its content and tries to

get rid of it by going the other way.

Cheney mentions it as well:

" Third System Down: Liver/Gut

The next thing affected is your liver/gut. Probably the very first

thing you'll notice is that there are fewer and fewer foods you can

tolerate. If it gets really bad, there will be only a handful of

foods you'll be able to eat—for a lot of odd reasons. In part

because microcirculation is necessary for proper digestion. Also,

your body won't secrete digestive juices so you won't digest your

food. If you can't digest your food you'll get peptides that are

only partially digested and highly immune-reactive. They'll leak out

of your gut [into your bloodstream] and you'll get food allergies

and/or sensitivities. "

HCL supplements are a good way to find out if you are low in stomach

acid. Some people and me can take 2g and more without getting a

warming sensation however I only take 600-1200mg for normal foods

and 1800 for meat and foods with much protein.

Since I only eat low carb foods my digestion got better but it's

still a long way to the top and I do not take HCL for all meals.

Here is a site/forum where you will find some threads with questions

about HCL. Take a look.

[Guest guest]

Hi Honey,

Another option for assessing stomach acid levels is to simply try acid

supplements. Selected individuals may wish to try a diagnostic trial of

betaine-hydrochloride (stomach acid replacement supplements) to assess stomach

acid levels. The procedure for this diagnostic trial is outlined by the

following quote by Dr. , nutritional medicine pioneer and author

of 'Why Stomach Acid is Good for You':

" supplement with ... betaine hydrochloride-pepsin. Start with one ... capsule

before each meal. If you don't have any problems after two or three days, take

two with the meal. A few days later, you can up it to three capsules. Gradually

increase the dose in this step-like fashion until you're taking five or six -

capsules with each meal. "

Safety notes:

" Hydrocholoric acid should never be used with any anti-inflammatory medications,

including aspirin, Inodicin, Motrin, or Butazolidin, because of the risk of

internal bleeding. " Dr.

If you experience any negative effects (e.g. heart burn) from betaine

hydrochloride supplementation stop taking it immediately. Do not use betaine

hydrochloride if you have a stomach ulcer.

Or go to www.phcapsule.com/ and see if there is a practitioner in your area who

operates a heidelberg machine.

Blake

[Guest guest]

My doc explained that the valve which must open in order for stomach to empty is

activated by the level of acid in the food mass and if it is low, the valve

won't open and so you get reflux.

I had disabling gut problems over the years,including my esophagus becoming

eroded from the reflux.

The most of it is over, thanks primarily to a specific brand, Tyler, of

digestive enzymes, called Gastric Plus. It is a compound of enzymes plus other

stuff. The erosion is slowly healing and I think the fermented cabbage I make

and eat has helped.

It seems very significant to me that restricting your diet has helped so much.

That suggests allergies to foods or intolerances. I hope you are sure you are

not restricting any one class of foods unnecessarily. Lately we have been

talking here about food intolerances being a symptom of genetic variances which

are part of our disease, so it probably would be helpful to be clear about the

specific things that cause you problems

Adrienne

HCl, the burp test, gastric reflux, and low

stomach acid

Hi all,

In the last few days I've been looking into issues of low stomach

acidity as a possible cause or factor in various gastric problems I've

had over the last few years including gastric reflux, bad digestion and

a particularly nasty spate of probably parasitic infection last year.

I'd be very interested if anyone has any personal experience on

self-treatment or updated information on reliable diagnostic tools.

I know in the past Rich and others has posted some useful suggestions

for this, which I've gone back and read.

Background - I've had ME/CFS for 13 years and about 4 years ago I

developed uncomfortable gastric reflux - more than a lump in the

chest feeling, more a nasty burning sensation particularly at night.

This met with the usual GP's diagnosis of excess stomach acid, and

the usual prescription of a proton-pump inhibitor (PPI), in my case

Lansoprazole, which worked, in the sense that the reflux went away,

returning any day I didn't pop the pill. I never liked it much though:

the idea that if there's an excess of something, just suppress it

without explanation.

Two years ago my stomach turned very nasty (chronic periodic diarrhea

and disabling stomach cramps lasting days on end), accompanied by a

fairly catastrophic relapse in health, that's left me house/bed-bound

since then. This was eventually thought to be due to Blastocystis

Hominis by a private doctor, I took a whopping course of antibiotics

(because it's notororiously hard to kill) and over a long trailing

period my stomach symptoms mostly improved. I still can't however

tolerate sucrose and I have occasional bad episodes.

At the same time I went on a very restricted diet, and my reflux nearly

instantly disappeared - I stopped taking my PPIs as I didn't need to

take them. My diet's relaxed now, but with my reflux not returned in

anything but very occasional mild appearances - I can only put this down

the lack of sugar in my diet, I guess.

Anyway, I've been reading up on the theory that many or even most

cases of reflux may be caused by *low* stomach acidity, rather than

high - not quite understanding how, but I think the body reacts to the

low acidity in a way that causes reflux symptoms identical to having

high acidity in the first place. I'm still unsure how orthodox this

theory is. Although I don't currently have a reflux problem, I'm

much more concerned with whether I do have a low acidity problem, and

those blasted PPIs just excerbated it, lowering my gastric system's

ability to fight off bacterial infections - which may have either

helped the parasites to grow, or helped opportunistic bacterial

infections to foster.

So I did as suggested by performing two home tests in the last few days:

1) The burp test: 1/4 teaspoon of bicarbonate of soda on waking -

and time when you burp. Someone with normal acidity should burp

within 2 minutes as a reaction between the bicarb and the acid.

I tried this twice and didn't burp for 20-30 minutes! My partner

(who's well) took 3 minutes.

2) Try incremental supplementations with Betaine HCl (hydrochloric acid)

- on an empty stomach, one the first morning, see if I feel any gastric

symptoms, two the next morning etc.; and to back off when I get any

symptoms, concluding that the amount of HCl I took on the previous day

is the " correct " one for me. So far I'm up to taking 2x600mg HCl this

morning, and noticed little or no reaction in terms of burning sensation

or reflux. The type I'm taking is Biocare's HCl + Pepsin. The theory

is that this will then work out your " correct " dosage of HCl per meal.

Can anyone tell me if I'm doing this right, and the results of

these two tests are reliable, in the sense that it appears that they

really do indicate that I've had low rather than high stomach acidity

all along? Or if not, if there are more reliable tests? How reliable

is test 2 above, in that if I don't react to 2x600mg HCl on an empty

stomach, I should really be going as far as supplementing 3x600mg per

meal, three times a day?

Also, can anyone tell me if they've been successful in relieving

gastric problems by supplementing with HCl? Has it helped anyone's

digestion, reflux, or resistance to bacterial infections?

Finally, is there anything else I should be taking with it? Could I

do any harm by taking HCl self-prescribed? I ask the latter because I

suspect what my family doctor's response would be if I ask - to shrug

and refer me to the local gastric clinic, with a months-long wait,

who will tut a lot.

I've asked a lot of questions - sorry! But I'd be grateful for any

response, anecdotal or otherwise.

Honey

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

Hi, Honey.

I think you're doing it right. B. might be willing to comment

on HCl supplementation, since she has experience with it. It's very

important to use the proper concentration if you supplement HCL,

because if too concentrated, it can burn your mouth, throat and

esophagus, and if not concentrated enough, it won't help with

digestion.

The fact that you had difficulty with sucrose prompts me to suggest

that you look into the specific carbohydrate diet, which was devised

by the late Elaine Gottshall, and is used a lot in treating autistic

kids. What Elaine came to realize is that some people are not able

to break down disaccharides, such as sucrose, because they lack the

enzymes, because of damage to the gut. Her little book is entitled

Breaking the Vicious Cycle, and it is well worth reading if you have

problems with disaccharides, such as sucrose, lactose and those that

result from breakdown of starches.

Rich

>

> Hi all,

>

> In the last few days I've been looking into issues of low stomach

> acidity as a possible cause or factor in various gastric problems

I've

> had over the last few years including gastric reflux, bad

digestion and

> a particularly nasty spate of probably parasitic infection last

year.

> I'd be very interested if anyone has any personal experience on

> self-treatment or updated information on reliable diagnostic tools.

> I know in the past Rich and others has posted some useful

suggestions

> for this, which I've gone back and read.

>

> Background - I've had ME/CFS for 13 years and about 4 years ago I

> developed uncomfortable gastric reflux - more than a lump in the

> chest feeling, more a nasty burning sensation particularly at

night.

> This met with the usual GP's diagnosis of excess stomach acid, and

> the usual prescription of a proton-pump inhibitor (PPI), in my case

> Lansoprazole, which worked, in the sense that the reflux went away,

> returning any day I didn't pop the pill. I never liked it much

though:

> the idea that if there's an excess of something, just suppress it

> without explanation.

>

> Two years ago my stomach turned very nasty (chronic periodic

diarrhea

> and disabling stomach cramps lasting days on end), accompanied by a

> fairly catastrophic relapse in health, that's left me house/bed-

bound

> since then. This was eventually thought to be due to Blastocystis

> Hominis by a private doctor, I took a whopping course of

antibiotics

> (because it's notororiously hard to kill) and over a long trailing

> period my stomach symptoms mostly improved. I still can't however

> tolerate sucrose and I have occasional bad episodes.

>

> At the same time I went on a very restricted diet, and my reflux

nearly

> instantly disappeared - I stopped taking my PPIs as I didn't need

to

> take them. My diet's relaxed now, but with my reflux not returned

in

> anything but very occasional mild appearances - I can only put

this down

> the lack of sugar in my diet, I guess.

>

> Anyway, I've been reading up on the theory that many or even most

> cases of reflux may be caused by *low* stomach acidity, rather than

> high - not quite understanding how, but I think the body reacts to

the

> low acidity in a way that causes reflux symptoms identical to

having

> high acidity in the first place. I'm still unsure how orthodox

this

> theory is. Although I don't currently have a reflux problem, I'm

> much more concerned with whether I do have a low acidity problem,

and

> those blasted PPIs just excerbated it, lowering my gastric system's

> ability to fight off bacterial infections - which may have either

> helped the parasites to grow, or helped opportunistic bacterial

> infections to foster.

>

> So I did as suggested by performing two home tests in the last few

days:

>

> 1) The burp test: 1/4 teaspoon of bicarbonate of soda on waking -

> and time when you burp. Someone with normal acidity should burp

> within 2 minutes as a reaction between the bicarb and the acid.

> I tried this twice and didn't burp for 20-30 minutes! My partner

> (who's well) took 3 minutes.

>

> 2) Try incremental supplementations with Betaine HCl (hydrochloric

acid)

> - on an empty stomach, one the first morning, see if I feel any

gastric

> symptoms, two the next morning etc.; and to back off when I get any

> symptoms, concluding that the amount of HCl I took on the previous

day

> is the " correct " one for me. So far I'm up to taking 2x600mg HCl

this

> morning, and noticed little or no reaction in terms of burning

sensation

> or reflux. The type I'm taking is Biocare's HCl + Pepsin. The

theory

> is that this will then work out your " correct " dosage of HCl per

meal.

>

> Can anyone tell me if I'm doing this right, and the results of

> these two tests are reliable, in the sense that it appears that

they

> really do indicate that I've had low rather than high stomach

acidity

> all along? Or if not, if there are more reliable tests? How

reliable

> is test 2 above, in that if I don't react to 2x600mg HCl on an

empty

> stomach, I should really be going as far as supplementing 3x600mg

per

> meal, three times a day?

>

> Also, can anyone tell me if they've been successful in relieving

> gastric problems by supplementing with HCl? Has it helped anyone's

> digestion, reflux, or resistance to bacterial infections?

>

> Finally, is there anything else I should be taking with it? Could

I

> do any harm by taking HCl self-prescribed? I ask the latter

because I

> suspect what my family doctor's response would be if I ask - to

shrug

> and refer me to the local gastric clinic, with a months-long wait,

> who will tut a lot.

>

> I've asked a lot of questions - sorry! But I'd be grateful for any

> response, anecdotal or otherwise.

>

> Honey

>

[Guest guest]

Another option is the juice of a 1/2 of a lemon in water or 1T of apple

cider vinegar in water before meals.

mjh

" The Basil Book "

_http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/_ (http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/)

The Solar Betaine HCL costs about £5.80 a bottle so it's quite cheap to try.

It's best the best remedy I have tried for any one symptom so far.

Kindest regards,

Annette

[Guest guest]

LADIES!!!!!!

Please trim your posts in this thread!

Some of us are cognitively impaired as well as on the DIGEST.

mjh

" The Basil Book "

http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/

[Guest guest]

Thank Blake - yes that looks similar to the other self-test I used as

mentioned in my mail, but instead it was suggested there I try taking

HCl on an empty stomach rather than with a meal - just for the test.

The idea again being to work out a tolerance level and then stick to it

with meals.

What I really wonder if how solid these tests are: i.e. if I don't get

nausea or burning sensations with (say) 1200mg HCl, does this definitely

mean I'm deficient and should supplement with every meal? I may get my

partner, with a healthy stomach, to guinea pig this for me too, to prove

that normal people DO get the burning sensation - because I don't!

Any more personal experiences with this?

Honey

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, Blake Graham wrote:

> Hi Honey,

> Another option for assessing stomach acid levels is to simply try acid

supplements. Selected individuals may wish to try a diagnostic trial of

betaine-hydrochloride (stomach acid replacement supplements) to assess stomach

acid levels. The procedure for this diagnostic trial is outlined by the

following quote by Dr. , nutritional medicine pioneer and author

of 'Why Stomach Acid is Good for You':

>

> " supplement with ... betaine hydrochloride-pepsin. Start with one ... capsule

before each meal. If you don't have any problems after two or three days, take

two with the meal. A few days later, you can up it to three capsules. Gradually

increase the dose in this step-like fashion until you're taking five or six -

capsules with each meal. "

>

> Safety notes:

>

> " Hydrocholoric acid should never be used with any anti-inflammatory

medications, including aspirin, Inodicin, Motrin, or Butazolidin, because of the

risk of internal bleeding. " Dr.

>

> If you experience any negative effects (e.g. heart burn) from betaine

hydrochloride supplementation stop taking it immediately. Do not use betaine

hydrochloride if you have a stomach ulcer.

>

>

>

> Or go to www.phcapsule.com/ and see if there is a practitioner in your area

who operates a heidelberg machine.

>

>

>

> Blake

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Adrienne. My naive understanding is that the valve opening

*causes* the reflux (i.e. stomach contents then escape up the

oesophagus) so I don't quite get why it not opening would cause this -

unless we mean a different valve!

Anyway, yes it is significant that my reflux disappeared on diet change

isn't it. My GP of course brushed this aside smiling and saying " well,

you're eating less too " . I did however go through a punishing year of

elimination diets in two long bouts, removing and then slowly

reintroducing food groups, and much to my frustration, never found any

significant trend with any food, even yeast, dairy etc. I really tried!

It was practically purgatory as I really wanted to give it a good go,

but I ended with no clear problematic food or group of foods, although I

did it quite systematically and over long periods.

I can only therefore conclude that specifically sucrose, or possibly

some component of processed food, neither of which I am now eating,

helped the reflux to occur. If I eat sucrose, it seems usual that some

time later I will have problems - within a few days, either gastric or

general and severe ME/CFS fluey malaise for a few days. I've thus given

up on cake for now.

I never had any such problems for my previous 10 years of ME! Something

clearly tipped the balance...

I've also tried digestive enzymes, although not your brand. The problem

is that my gastric symptoms fluctuate without pattern, and certainly are

less extreme since my heavy course of antibiotics to kill the

Blastocystis Hominis last year. But I do get the strong feeling that

something still isn't working in my digestive system - and it's periodic

in some way. Presumably if I'm lacking in stomach acid, this is going

to allow opportunist bacterial infections to sporadically take over?

Honey

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, Adrienne G. wrote:

> My doc explained that the valve which must open in order for stomach to empty

is activated by the level of acid in the food mass and if it is low, the valve

won't open and so you get reflux.

> I had disabling gut problems over the years,including my esophagus becoming

eroded from the reflux.

> The most of it is over, thanks primarily to a specific brand, Tyler, of

digestive enzymes, called Gastric Plus. It is a compound of enzymes plus other

stuff. The erosion is slowly healing and I think the fermented cabbage I make

and eat has helped.

>

> It seems very significant to me that restricting your diet has helped so much.

That suggests allergies to foods or intolerances. I hope you are sure you are

not restricting any one class of foods unnecessarily. Lately we have been

talking here about food intolerances being a symptom of genetic variances which

are part of our disease, so it probably would be helpful to be clear about the

specific things that cause you problems

> Adrienne

> HCl, the burp test, gastric reflux, and low

stomach acid

>

>

> Hi all,

>

> In the last few days I've been looking into issues of low stomach

> acidity as a possible cause or factor in various gastric problems I've

> had over the last few years including gastric reflux, bad digestion and

> a particularly nasty spate of probably parasitic infection last year.

> I'd be very interested if anyone has any personal experience on

> self-treatment or updated information on reliable diagnostic tools.

> I know in the past Rich and others has posted some useful suggestions

> for this, which I've gone back and read.

>

> Background - I've had ME/CFS for 13 years and about 4 years ago I

> developed uncomfortable gastric reflux - more than a lump in the

> chest feeling, more a nasty burning sensation particularly at night.

> This met with the usual GP's diagnosis of excess stomach acid, and

> the usual prescription of a proton-pump inhibitor (PPI), in my case

> Lansoprazole, which worked, in the sense that the reflux went away,

> returning any day I didn't pop the pill. I never liked it much though:

> the idea that if there's an excess of something, just suppress it

> without explanation.

>

> Two years ago my stomach turned very nasty (chronic periodic diarrhea

> and disabling stomach cramps lasting days on end), accompanied by a

> fairly catastrophic relapse in health, that's left me house/bed-bound

> since then. This was eventually thought to be due to Blastocystis

> Hominis by a private doctor, I took a whopping course of antibiotics

> (because it's notororiously hard to kill) and over a long trailing

> period my stomach symptoms mostly improved. I still can't however

> tolerate sucrose and I have occasional bad episodes.

>

> At the same time I went on a very restricted diet, and my reflux nearly

> instantly disappeared - I stopped taking my PPIs as I didn't need to

> take them. My diet's relaxed now, but with my reflux not returned in

> anything but very occasional mild appearances - I can only put this down

> the lack of sugar in my diet, I guess.

>

> Anyway, I've been reading up on the theory that many or even most

> cases of reflux may be caused by *low* stomach acidity, rather than

> high - not quite understanding how, but I think the body reacts to the

> low acidity in a way that causes reflux symptoms identical to having

> high acidity in the first place. I'm still unsure how orthodox this

> theory is. Although I don't currently have a reflux problem, I'm

> much more concerned with whether I do have a low acidity problem, and

> those blasted PPIs just excerbated it, lowering my gastric system's

> ability to fight off bacterial infections - which may have either

> helped the parasites to grow, or helped opportunistic bacterial

> infections to foster.

>

> So I did as suggested by performing two home tests in the last few days:

>

> 1) The burp test: 1/4 teaspoon of bicarbonate of soda on waking -

> and time when you burp. Someone with normal acidity should burp

> within 2 minutes as a reaction between the bicarb and the acid.

> I tried this twice and didn't burp for 20-30 minutes! My partner

> (who's well) took 3 minutes.

>

> 2) Try incremental supplementations with Betaine HCl (hydrochloric acid)

> - on an empty stomach, one the first morning, see if I feel any gastric

> symptoms, two the next morning etc.; and to back off when I get any

> symptoms, concluding that the amount of HCl I took on the previous day

> is the " correct " one for me. So far I'm up to taking 2x600mg HCl this

> morning, and noticed little or no reaction in terms of burning sensation

> or reflux. The type I'm taking is Biocare's HCl + Pepsin. The theory

> is that this will then work out your " correct " dosage of HCl per meal.

>

> Can anyone tell me if I'm doing this right, and the results of

> these two tests are reliable, in the sense that it appears that they

> really do indicate that I've had low rather than high stomach acidity

> all along? Or if not, if there are more reliable tests? How reliable

> is test 2 above, in that if I don't react to 2x600mg HCl on an empty

> stomach, I should really be going as far as supplementing 3x600mg per

> meal, three times a day?

>

> Also, can anyone tell me if they've been successful in relieving

> gastric problems by supplementing with HCl? Has it helped anyone's

> digestion, reflux, or resistance to bacterial infections?

>

> Finally, is there anything else I should be taking with it? Could I

> do any harm by taking HCl self-prescribed? I ask the latter because I

> suspect what my family doctor's response would be if I ask - to shrug

> and refer me to the local gastric clinic, with a months-long wait,

> who will tut a lot.

>

> I've asked a lot of questions - sorry! But I'd be grateful for any

> response, anecdotal or otherwise.

>

> Honey

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

> It seems very significant to me that restricting your diet has helped

so much. That suggests allergies to foods or intolerances.

***Hi Adrienne and Honey - As we age it is not unusual to start having

problems with acid reflux. Fried foods, chocolate, and alcohol are

common triggers. This has nothing to do with allergies or food

intolerances. Our stomachs just can't handle some foods the same way as

when we were younger.

Take care.

Bernie

[Guest guest]

Hi Honey,

You asked for more personal experience with low stomach acid.

I have never had a medical test for this and I didn't try the test Rich

suggested a long time ago

(the burping one) as I was already using Betaine HCL.

I use the Solgar variety and find that 1-6 each meals helps me so much. Not only

does it stop the

awful bloating and " full " discomfort after a meal but my bowel movements are

much better.

Sorry if TMI.

The Solar Betaine HCL costs about £5.80 a bottle so it's quite cheap to try.

It's best the best remedy I have tried for any one symptom so far.

Kindest regards,

Annette

___________________________________________________________

All new " The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of

use. " - PC Magazine

http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html

[Guest guest]

Wow! That's cheaper than Biocare Annette, and very encouraging. Thanks

very much, I'm encouraged. Any particularly cheap supplier for

Solgar's? I paid £10.75 for 90x600mg (plus pepsin).

Honey

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, annette barclay wrote:

> Hi Honey,

>

> You asked for more personal experience with low stomach acid.

>

> I have never had a medical test for this and I didn't try the test Rich

suggested a long time ago

> (the burping one) as I was already using Betaine HCL.

>

> I use the Solgar variety and find that 1-6 each meals helps me so much. Not

only does it stop the

> awful bloating and " full " discomfort after a meal but my bowel movements are

much better.

>

> Sorry if TMI.

>

> The Solar Betaine HCL costs about £5.80 a bottle so it's quite cheap to try.

>

> It's best the best remedy I have tried for any one symptom so far.

>

> Kindest regards,

> Annette

>

>

>

>

>

> ___________________________________________________________

> All new " The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease

of use. " - PC Magazine

> http://uk.docs./nowyoucan.html

>

[Guest guest]

Yes of course different valve. I mean the appropriate exit for the food, on the

way to the intestine.

Adrienne

HCl, the burp test, gastric reflux, and low

stomach acid

>

>

> Hi all,

>

> In the last few days I've been looking into issues of low stomach

> acidity as a possible cause or factor in various gastric problems I've

> had over the last few years including gastric reflux, bad digestion and

> a particularly nasty spate of probably parasitic infection last year.

> I'd be very interested if anyone has any personal experience on

> self-treatment or updated information on reliable diagnostic tools.

> I know in the past Rich and others has posted some useful suggestions

> for this, which I've gone back and read.

>

> Background - I've had ME/CFS for 13 years and about 4 years ago I

> developed uncomfortable gastric reflux - more than a lump in the

> chest feeling, more a nasty burning sensation particularly at night.

> This met with the usual GP's diagnosis of excess stomach acid, and

> the usual prescription of a proton-pump inhibitor (PPI), in my case

> Lansoprazole, which worked, in the sense that the reflux went away,

> returning any day I didn't pop the pill. I never liked it much though:

> the idea that if there's an excess of something, just suppress it

> without explanation.

>

> Two years ago my stomach turned very nasty (chronic periodic diarrhea

> and disabling stomach cramps lasting days on end), accompanied by a

> fairly catastrophic relapse in health, that's left me house/bed-bound

> since then. This was eventually thought to be due to Blastocystis

> Hominis by a private doctor, I took a whopping course of antibiotics

> (because it's notororiously hard to kill) and over a long trailing

> period my stomach symptoms mostly improved. I still can't however

> tolerate sucrose and I have occasional bad episodes.

>

> At the same time I went on a very restricted diet, and my reflux nearly

> instantly disappeared - I stopped taking my PPIs as I didn't need to

> take them. My diet's relaxed now, but with my reflux not returned in

> anything but very occasional mild appearances - I can only put this down

> the lack of sugar in my diet, I guess.

>

> Anyway, I've been reading up on the theory that many or even most

> cases of reflux may be caused by *low* stomach acidity, rather than

> high - not quite understanding how, but I think the body reacts to the

> low acidity in a way that causes reflux symptoms identical to having

> high acidity in the first place. I'm still unsure how orthodox this

> theory is. Although I don't currently have a reflux problem, I'm

> much more concerned with whether I do have a low acidity problem, and

> those blasted PPIs just excerbated it, lowering my gastric system's

> ability to fight off bacterial infections - which may have either

> helped the parasites to grow, or helped opportunistic bacterial

> infections to foster.

>

> So I did as suggested by performing two home tests in the last few days:

>

> 1) The burp test: 1/4 teaspoon of bicarbonate of soda on waking -

> and time when you burp. Someone with normal acidity should burp

> within 2 minutes as a reaction between the bicarb and the acid.

> I tried this twice and didn't burp for 20-30 minutes! My partner

> (who's well) took 3 minutes.

>

> 2) Try incremental supplementations with Betaine HCl (hydrochloric acid)

> - on an empty stomach, one the first morning, see if I feel any gastric

> symptoms, two the next morning etc.; and to back off when I get any

> symptoms, concluding that the amount of HCl I took on the previous day

> is the " correct " one for me. So far I'm up to taking 2x600mg HCl this

> morning, and noticed little or no reaction in terms of burning sensation

> or reflux. The type I'm taking is Biocare's HCl + Pepsin. The theory

> is that this will then work out your " correct " dosage of HCl per meal.

>

> Can anyone tell me if I'm doing this right, and the results of

> these two tests are reliable, in the sense that it appears that they

> really do indicate that I've had low rather than high stomach acidity

> all along? Or if not, if there are more reliable tests? How reliable

> is test 2 above, in that if I don't react to 2x600mg HCl on an empty

> stomach, I should really be going as far as supplementing 3x600mg per

> meal, three times a day?

>

> Also, can anyone tell me if they've been successful in relieving

> gastric problems by supplementing with HCl? Has it helped anyone's

> digestion, reflux, or resistance to bacterial infections?

>

> Finally, is there anything else I should be taking with it? Could I

> do any harm by taking HCl self-prescribed? I ask the latter because I

> suspect what my family doctor's response would be if I ask - to shrug

> and refer me to the local gastric clinic, with a months-long wait,

> who will tut a lot.

>

> I've asked a lot of questions - sorry! But I'd be grateful for any

> response, anecdotal or otherwise.

>

> Honey

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

[Guest guest]

The enzymes I reccomend are not particularly expensive, and wortha try. When I

reported back to my doc how much they were helping, he said, yes, everyone says

that. I don't know more than that.

Adrienne

HCl, the burp test, gastric reflux, and low

stomach acid

>

>

> Hi all,

>

> In the last few days I've been looking into issues of low stomach

> acidity as a possible cause or factor in various gastric problems I've

> had over the last few years including gastric reflux, bad digestion and

> a particularly nasty spate of probably parasitic infection last year.

> I'd be very interested if anyone has any personal experience on

> self-treatment or updated information on reliable diagnostic tools.

> I know in the past Rich and others has posted some useful suggestions

> for this, which I've gone back and read.

>

> Background - I've had ME/CFS for 13 years and about 4 years ago I

> developed uncomfortable gastric reflux - more than a lump in the

> chest feeling, more a nasty burning sensation particularly at night.

> This met with the usual GP's diagnosis of excess stomach acid, and

> the usual prescription of a proton-pump inhibitor (PPI), in my case

> Lansoprazole, which worked, in the sense that the reflux went away,

> returning any day I didn't pop the pill. I never liked it much though:

> the idea that if there's an excess of something, just suppress it

> without explanation.

>

> Two years ago my stomach turned very nasty (chronic periodic diarrhea

> and disabling stomach cramps lasting days on end), accompanied by a

> fairly catastrophic relapse in health, that's left me house/bed-bound

> since then. This was eventually thought to be due to Blastocystis

> Hominis by a private doctor, I took a whopping course of antibiotics

> (because it's notororiously hard to kill) and over a long trailing

> period my stomach symptoms mostly improved. I still can't however

> tolerate sucrose and I have occasional bad episodes.

>

> At the same time I went on a very restricted diet, and my reflux nearly

> instantly disappeared - I stopped taking my PPIs as I didn't need to

> take them. My diet's relaxed now, but with my reflux not returned in

> anything but very occasional mild appearances - I can only put this down

> the lack of sugar in my diet, I guess.

>

> Anyway, I've been reading up on the theory that many or even most

> cases of reflux may be caused by *low* stomach acidity, rather than

> high - not quite understanding how, but I think the body reacts to the

> low acidity in a way that causes reflux symptoms identical to having

> high acidity in the first place. I'm still unsure how orthodox this

> theory is. Although I don't currently have a reflux problem, I'm

> much more concerned with whether I do have a low acidity problem, and

> those blasted PPIs just excerbated it, lowering my gastric system's

> ability to fight off bacterial infections - which may have either

> helped the parasites to grow, or helped opportunistic bacterial

> infections to foster.

>

> So I did as suggested by performing two home tests in the last few days:

>

> 1) The burp test: 1/4 teaspoon of bicarbonate of soda on waking -

> and time when you burp. Someone with normal acidity should burp

> within 2 minutes as a reaction between the bicarb and the acid.

> I tried this twice and didn't burp for 20-30 minutes! My partner

> (who's well) took 3 minutes.

>

> 2) Try incremental supplementations with Betaine HCl (hydrochloric acid)

> - on an empty stomach, one the first morning, see if I feel any gastric

> symptoms, two the next morning etc.; and to back off when I get any

> symptoms, concluding that the amount of HCl I took on the previous day

> is the " correct " one for me. So far I'm up to taking 2x600mg HCl this

> morning, and noticed little or no reaction in terms of burning sensation

> or reflux. The type I'm taking is Biocare's HCl + Pepsin. The theory

> is that this will then work out your " correct " dosage of HCl per meal.

>

> Can anyone tell me if I'm doing this right, and the results of

> these two tests are reliable, in the sense that it appears that they

> really do indicate that I've had low rather than high stomach acidity

> all along? Or if not, if there are more reliable tests? How reliable

> is test 2 above, in that if I don't react to 2x600mg HCl on an empty

> stomach, I should really be going as far as supplementing 3x600mg per

> meal, three times a day?

>

> Also, can anyone tell me if they've been successful in relieving

> gastric problems by supplementing with HCl? Has it helped anyone's

> digestion, reflux, or resistance to bacterial infections?

>

> Finally, is there anything else I should be taking with it? Could I

> do any harm by taking HCl self-prescribed? I ask the latter because I

> suspect what my family doctor's response would be if I ask - to shrug

> and refer me to the local gastric clinic, with a months-long wait,

> who will tut a lot.

>

> I've asked a lot of questions - sorry! But I'd be grateful for any

> response, anecdotal or otherwise.

>

> Honey

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

[Guest guest]

Ah, ok. So the stomach needs a certain acidity value to trigger opening

its exhaust gate? So, if you never reach that level, how does the

stomach ever empty? Sorry for the naive questions...

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, Adrienne G. wrote:

> Yes of course different valve. I mean the appropriate exit for the food, on

the way to the intestine.

> Adrienne

> HCl, the burp test, gastric reflux, and low

stomach acid

> >

> >

> > Hi all,

> >

> > In the last few days I've been looking into issues of low stomach

> > acidity as a possible cause or factor in various gastric problems I've

> > had over the last few years including gastric reflux, bad digestion and

> > a particularly nasty spate of probably parasitic infection last year.

> > I'd be very interested if anyone has any personal experience on

> > self-treatment or updated information on reliable diagnostic tools.

> > I know in the past Rich and others has posted some useful suggestions

> > for this, which I've gone back and read.

> >

> > Background - I've had ME/CFS for 13 years and about 4 years ago I

> > developed uncomfortable gastric reflux - more than a lump in the

> > chest feeling, more a nasty burning sensation particularly at night.

> > This met with the usual GP's diagnosis of excess stomach acid, and

> > the usual prescription of a proton-pump inhibitor (PPI), in my case

> > Lansoprazole, which worked, in the sense that the reflux went away,

> > returning any day I didn't pop the pill. I never liked it much though:

> > the idea that if there's an excess of something, just suppress it

> > without explanation.

> >

> > Two years ago my stomach turned very nasty (chronic periodic diarrhea

> > and disabling stomach cramps lasting days on end), accompanied by a

> > fairly catastrophic relapse in health, that's left me house/bed-bound

> > since then. This was eventually thought to be due to Blastocystis

> > Hominis by a private doctor, I took a whopping course of antibiotics

> > (because it's notororiously hard to kill) and over a long trailing

> > period my stomach symptoms mostly improved. I still can't however

> > tolerate sucrose and I have occasional bad episodes.

> >

> > At the same time I went on a very restricted diet, and my reflux nearly

> > instantly disappeared - I stopped taking my PPIs as I didn't need to

> > take them. My diet's relaxed now, but with my reflux not returned in

> > anything but very occasional mild appearances - I can only put this down

> > the lack of sugar in my diet, I guess.

> >

> > Anyway, I've been reading up on the theory that many or even most

> > cases of reflux may be caused by *low* stomach acidity, rather than

> > high - not quite understanding how, but I think the body reacts to the

> > low acidity in a way that causes reflux symptoms identical to having

> > high acidity in the first place. I'm still unsure how orthodox this

> > theory is. Although I don't currently have a reflux problem, I'm

> > much more concerned with whether I do have a low acidity problem, and

> > those blasted PPIs just excerbated it, lowering my gastric system's

> > ability to fight off bacterial infections - which may have either

> > helped the parasites to grow, or helped opportunistic bacterial

> > infections to foster.

> >

> > So I did as suggested by performing two home tests in the last few days:

> >

> > 1) The burp test: 1/4 teaspoon of bicarbonate of soda on waking -

> > and time when you burp. Someone with normal acidity should burp

> > within 2 minutes as a reaction between the bicarb and the acid.

> > I tried this twice and didn't burp for 20-30 minutes! My partner

> > (who's well) took 3 minutes.

> >

> > 2) Try incremental supplementations with Betaine HCl (hydrochloric acid)

> > - on an empty stomach, one the first morning, see if I feel any gastric

> > symptoms, two the next morning etc.; and to back off when I get any

> > symptoms, concluding that the amount of HCl I took on the previous day

> > is the " correct " one for me. So far I'm up to taking 2x600mg HCl this

> > morning, and noticed little or no reaction in terms of burning sensation

> > or reflux. The type I'm taking is Biocare's HCl + Pepsin. The theory

> > is that this will then work out your " correct " dosage of HCl per meal.

> >

> > Can anyone tell me if I'm doing this right, and the results of

> > these two tests are reliable, in the sense that it appears that they

> > really do indicate that I've had low rather than high stomach acidity

> > all along? Or if not, if there are more reliable tests? How reliable

> > is test 2 above, in that if I don't react to 2x600mg HCl on an empty

> > stomach, I should really be going as far as supplementing 3x600mg per

> > meal, three times a day?

> >

> > Also, can anyone tell me if they've been successful in relieving

> > gastric problems by supplementing with HCl? Has it helped anyone's

> > digestion, reflux, or resistance to bacterial infections?

> >

> > Finally, is there anything else I should be taking with it? Could I

> > do any harm by taking HCl self-prescribed? I ask the latter because I

> > suspect what my family doctor's response would be if I ask - to shrug

> > and refer me to the local gastric clinic, with a months-long wait,

> > who will tut a lot.

> >

> > I've asked a lot of questions - sorry! But I'd be grateful for any

> > response, anecdotal or otherwise.

> >

> > Honey

> >

> >

> >

> > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

> >

[Guest guest]

I dunno, but one might guess that if it sits there long enough more acid is

produced and there is a cumulative effect?

A

HCl, the burp test, gastric reflux, and low

stomach acid

> >

> >

> > Hi all,

> >

> > In the last few days I've been looking into issues of low stomach

> > acidity as a possible cause or factor in various gastric problems I've

> > had over the last few years including gastric reflux, bad digestion and

> > a particularly nasty spate of probably parasitic infection last year.

> > I'd be very interested if anyone has any personal experience on

> > self-treatment or updated information on reliable diagnostic tools.

> > I know in the past Rich and others has posted some useful suggestions

> > for this, which I've gone back and read.

> >

> > Background - I've had ME/CFS for 13 years and about 4 years ago I

> > developed uncomfortable gastric reflux - more than a lump in the

> > chest feeling, more a nasty burning sensation particularly at night.

> > This met with the usual GP's diagnosis of excess stomach acid, and

> > the usual prescription of a proton-pump inhibitor (PPI), in my case

> > Lansoprazole, which worked, in the sense that the reflux went away,

> > returning any day I didn't pop the pill. I never liked it much though:

> > the idea that if there's an excess of something, just suppress it

> > without explanation.

> >

> > Two years ago my stomach turned very nasty (chronic periodic diarrhea

> > and disabling stomach cramps lasting days on end), accompanied by a

> > fairly catastrophic relapse in health, that's left me house/bed-bound

> > since then. This was eventually thought to be due to Blastocystis

> > Hominis by a private doctor, I took a whopping course of antibiotics

> > (because it's notororiously hard to kill) and over a long trailing

> > period my stomach symptoms mostly improved. I still can't however

> > tolerate sucrose and I have occasional bad episodes.

> >

> > At the same time I went on a very restricted diet, and my reflux nearly

> > instantly disappeared - I stopped taking my PPIs as I didn't need to

> > take them. My diet's relaxed now, but with my reflux not returned in

> > anything but very occasional mild appearances - I can only put this down

> > the lack of sugar in my diet, I guess.

> >

> > Anyway, I've been reading up on the theory that many or even most

> > cases of reflux may be caused by *low* stomach acidity, rather than

> > high - not quite understanding how, but I think the body reacts to the

> > low acidity in a way that causes reflux symptoms identical to having

> > high acidity in the first place. I'm still unsure how orthodox this

> > theory is. Although I don't currently have a reflux problem, I'm

> > much more concerned with whether I do have a low acidity problem, and

> > those blasted PPIs just excerbated it, lowering my gastric system's

> > ability to fight off bacterial infections - which may have either

> > helped the parasites to grow, or helped opportunistic bacterial

> > infections to foster.

> >

> > So I did as suggested by performing two home tests in the last few days:

> >

> > 1) The burp test: 1/4 teaspoon of bicarbonate of soda on waking -

> > and time when you burp. Someone with normal acidity should burp

> > within 2 minutes as a reaction between the bicarb and the acid.

> > I tried this twice and didn't burp for 20-30 minutes! My partner

> > (who's well) took 3 minutes.

> >

> > 2) Try incremental supplementations with Betaine HCl (hydrochloric acid)

> > - on an empty stomach, one the first morning, see if I feel any gastric

> > symptoms, two the next morning etc.; and to back off when I get any

> > symptoms, concluding that the amount of HCl I took on the previous day

> > is the " correct " one for me. So far I'm up to taking 2x600mg HCl this

> > morning, and noticed little or no reaction in terms of burning sensation

> > or reflux. The type I'm taking is Biocare's HCl + Pepsin. The theory

> > is that this will then work out your " correct " dosage of HCl per meal.

> >

> > Can anyone tell me if I'm doing this right, and the results of

> > these two tests are reliable, in the sense that it appears that they

> > really do indicate that I've had low rather than high stomach acidity

> > all along? Or if not, if there are more reliable tests? How reliable

> > is test 2 above, in that if I don't react to 2x600mg HCl on an empty

> > stomach, I should really be going as far as supplementing 3x600mg per

> > meal, three times a day?

> >

> > Also, can anyone tell me if they've been successful in relieving

> > gastric problems by supplementing with HCl? Has it helped anyone's

> > digestion, reflux, or resistance to bacterial infections?

> >

> > Finally, is there anything else I should be taking with it? Could I

> > do any harm by taking HCl self-prescribed? I ask the latter because I

> > suspect what my family doctor's response would be if I ask - to shrug

> > and refer me to the local gastric clinic, with a months-long wait,

> > who will tut a lot.

> >

> > I've asked a lot of questions - sorry! But I'd be grateful for any

> > response, anecdotal or otherwise.

> >

> > Honey

> >

> >

> >

> > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with

each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi, Honey.

What about milk and starches. Do they cause problems for you, too?

Or is sucrose the only thing? If these others cause problems, too,

then I think the disaccharidase deficiency theory of Elaine

Gottschall may fit your case. If not, then perhaps not.

Rich

>

> Hi Rich,

> It does seem very odd to me that *only* sucrose seems to cause a

> reaction (and never did before elimination diets). I don't seem

to have

> a problem with carbohydrates in any other form. Wouldn't this

indicate

> that it's a more specific problem or intolerance than one that the

SCD

> might help?

>

> Honey

[Guest guest]

Excuse any errors but I am really tired but concerning my husband

who has suffered gastic problems now for many years..had heart tests

and came out fine but just recently got to the point of too much

pain.. short version perscribed Pronton Pump Inhibs. and I said no

no no after he had taken only two doses...acid test done and as I

saw it low acid not high so although he has to have endiscope some

time..NHS means 3-6 months time he has changed his diet to Salads

for main meal fruit for breakfast and lunchtime what ever I dish

up..maybe sandwich or toasted cheese or simular..He is great right

now with no symptoms of chest pain that knocks him down to a silent

stationary 'thing' as apposed to light that can light up the world

(boy did I make the right choice). I have put him on Mag. Cal and

Zinc and also Milk Thistle(Blood test showed liver under par)apart

from a multi vit and mineral and Garlic plus Vit B every other day.

He is looking so good for his 61 years. Could be with him Hiatus

Hernia but the symptoms can be horrenous at times.

Now with me I had HPyloroi and the weight lose was huge so much that

I look like a skeleton and felt like one...my stomach would burn

often and anything I took to help would do nout till I had strong

ABX and continued with Mastic Gum till this day....I am now so much

the better for riding HP, over my desired weight now but at least I

have improved a lot but not solved the puzzle yet by far. BW Dianne

[Guest guest]

Hi, Honey.

Sucrose is a disaccharide. It is composed of glucose and fructose,

bonded together. In the gut, there is normally an enzyme called

sucrase, which breaks them apart. Perhaps you are lacking only in

sucrase, not the other disacchardases.

O.K., so I have a rather ironic question for you: how do you

tolerate eating honey, Honey? The reason I ask is that in honey the

sucrose from the nectar of flowers has been mostly broken down to

fructose and glucose (this combination being known as invert sugar)

by enzymes produced by the bees. If you can tolerate honey but not

sucrose, and you have no problems from other disaccharides or

starches, then I think we have narrowed it down to a lack of

sucrase. This could have a genetic cause.

Rich

>

> Hi Rich,

>

> I've really struggled with this for a year, with no clear results -

> so many people seem to get clear intolerances after a matter of

hours

> or at least days, but after applying the scientific method time and

> again I really can see no consistent pattern except (probably!) to

> sucrose - 24-48 afterwards I usually either get gastric problems

and/or

> bad fluey malaise. But no, no clear problems with milk or

starches.

> To be honest, when I restarted starches after my diet-from-hell,

> I actually improved.

>

> It does seem odd that it's *just* sucrose doesn't it? I seem to be

> able to eat fruit ok now without major problems, so fructose is ok.

> I know next to nothing about biochemistry, but aren't they all just

> monosaccharides? It may of course be the concentration, or

additives,

> as sugary treats like chocolate of course tend to come with them.

> Maybe I need to do some extensive testing with... mmm Green &

Black's

> organic chocolate... wonder if I can get it on prescription.

>

> I don't really understand why I developed this intolerance - I had

no

> problem with sucrose for 10 years' of ME... any clues welcome.

>

> Honey

[Guest guest]

Dianne,

Thanks so much for the information - very useful. I hope you and

your husband improve. Could I ask one thing? You say your husband

had an acid test done - what type of test was it and was it done on

the NHS or privately? If privately, did your GP believe it?

Honey

(P.S. mjh: comment noted - sorry! Will trim in future).

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, Dianne wrote:

> Excuse any errors but I am really tired but concerning my husband

> who has suffered gastic problems now for many years..had heart tests

> and came out fine but just recently got to the point of too much

> pain.. short version perscribed Pronton Pump Inhibs. and I said no

> no no after he had taken only two doses...acid test done and as I

> saw it low acid not high so although he has to have endiscope some

> time..

[Guest guest]

Hi, Honey.

>

> Hi Rich,

I lived 30+ years without any bad reaction to

> sucrose, and only developed one after this heavy relapse brought on

> by gastric symptoms. Wouldn't this tend to rule out a genetic cause?

***Yes, it would. That's a helpful piece of information. I'd say that

makes it more likely that the mechanism discussed by Elaine Gottschall

is involved in your case. The idea is that the enterocytes lining the

small intestine are supposed to have these little fingers sticking

out, called microvilli. On these microvilli are supposed to be the

disaccharidases, which are the enzymes that break down the

disaccharides, such as sucrose, into the monosaccharides, so they can

be imported into the enterocytes and eventually put into the blood

headed toward the liver.

***The problem is that various things can damage these little

microvilli and then the activity of the disaccharidases goes down and

the double sugars can't be broken down and absorbed. So that the bad-

actor bacteria in the gut use them for food, and they proliferate,

producing dysbiosis and a lot of problems.

***According to Elaine, the lactase enzyme is usually the first one to

go, but maybe in your case the sucrase went down first, if you don't

have trouble with milk.

> I'll certainly let you know when I get the courage up to try some,

> probably when I've stabilised my HCl experiment.

Honey

***O.K. If you try it, I hope the results turn out to be pleasant,

and not unpleasant!

***Rich

***P.S. I know I sound like a one-trick pony, but one of the things

that can cause problems with the microvilli is inability to make new

cells fast enough. The gut is one of the places where the cells have

to be replaced rapidly, because it's such a tough environment for

them. One thing that can interfere with making new cells rapidly is

inability to make RNA and DNA fast enough, and that can be caused by

problems in the folate metabolism, which is linked, you guessed it, to

the methylation cycle!

[Guest guest]

Today I read Teri Small's interview with Dr Krigman who focusses on

the gut in autistic kids. Most of them when biopsied have inflammation

that looks similar to crohn's disease. The inflammation seems to go

throughtout the gut, even including the esophagus. Treating the gut is

a necessity. Many of them also have a lot of stool even though it is

not constipated, because they don't have proper gut motility.

One thing the doc who wrote the IBS book (the one Sue read, which

recommends xifaxin) talks about is how gut motility proceeds in waves,

and how chronic infection can stop those waves, and how getting rid of

the infection can restore those waves.

It's kind of interesting. People may not be constipated but they also

may be backed up, blocked up and inflamed.

I wouldn't want a biopsy to confirm the intuition but probably a lot

of us do have the gut involved on a greater level than we realize.

> >

> > Hi Rich,

>

> I lived 30+ years without any bad reaction to

> > sucrose, and only developed one after this heavy relapse brought on

> > by gastric symptoms. Wouldn't this tend to rule out a genetic cause?

>

> ***Yes, it would. That's a helpful piece of information. I'd say that

> makes it more likely that the mechanism discussed by Elaine Gottschall

> is involved in your case. The idea is that the enterocytes lining the

> small intestine are supposed to have these little fingers sticking

> out, called microvilli. On these microvilli are supposed to be the

> disaccharidases, which are the enzymes that break down the

> disaccharides, such as sucrose, into the monosaccharides, so they can

> be imported into the enterocytes and eventually put into the blood

> headed toward the liver.

>

> ***The problem is that various things can damage these little

> microvilli and then the activity of the disaccharidases goes down and

> the double sugars can't be broken down and absorbed. So that the bad-

> actor bacteria in the gut use them for food, and they proliferate,

> producing dysbiosis and a lot of problems.

>

> ***According to Elaine, the lactase enzyme is usually the first one to

> go, but maybe in your case the sucrase went down first, if you don't

> have trouble with milk.

>

> > I'll certainly let you know when I get the courage up to try some,

> > probably when I've stabilised my HCl experiment.

>

> Honey

>

> ***O.K. If you try it, I hope the results turn out to be pleasant,

> and not unpleasant!

>

> ***Rich

>

> ***P.S. I know I sound like a one-trick pony, but one of the things

> that can cause problems with the microvilli is inability to make new

> cells fast enough. The gut is one of the places where the cells have

> to be replaced rapidly, because it's such a tough environment for

> them. One thing that can interfere with making new cells rapidly is

> inability to make RNA and DNA fast enough, and that can be caused by

> problems in the folate metabolism, which is linked, you guessed it, to

> the methylation cycle!

>