RE: Re: HCl, the burp test, gastric reflux, and low stomach acid

August 15, 2006

Hi Rich,

Thanks for the reply and encouragement. Certainly no burning of mouth

or throat here - the Biocare capsules seem as ever quite well made.

I don't know if I *strictly* followed the SCD, but I cut out just about

every carbohydrate from my diet last year for a period of 6 months,

after advice about trying to rid myself of the dreaded Blastocystis

Hominis, which thrives on starch and complex sugars. It was pretty much

purgatory, and I lost 1/3 of my body weight at the time and in

retrospect probably wasn't a good idea, although the Blasto may well be

gone. I'm sure the SCD is more balanced than that and I should take

another look - I think I even have the book but not had the energy to

read it! I guess I'm just exhausted from the purgatory of restrictive

diets all last year: when I quit them I felt a whole lot better!

It does seem very odd to me that *only* sucrose seems to cause a

reaction (and never did before elimination diets). I don't seem to have

a problem with carbohydrates in any other form. Wouldn't this indicate

that it's a more specific problem or intolerance than one that the SCD

might help?

Honey

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, rvankonynen wrote:

> Hi, Honey.

>

> I think you're doing it right. B. might be willing to comment

> on HCl supplementation, since she has experience with it. It's very

> important to use the proper concentration if you supplement HCL,

> because if too concentrated, it can burn your mouth, throat and

> esophagus, and if not concentrated enough, it won't help with

> digestion.

>

> The fact that you had difficulty with sucrose prompts me to suggest

> that you look into the specific carbohydrate diet, which was devised

> by the late Elaine Gottshall, and is used a lot in treating autistic

> kids. What Elaine came to realize is that some people are not able

> to break down disaccharides, such as sucrose, because they lack the

> enzymes, because of damage to the gut. Her little book is entitled

> Breaking the Vicious Cycle, and it is well worth reading if you have

> problems with disaccharides, such as sucrose, lactose and those that

> result from breakdown of starches.

>

> Rich

>

>>

>> Hi all,

>>

>> In the last few days I've been looking into issues of low stomach

>> acidity as a possible cause or factor in various gastric problems

> I've

>> had over the last few years including gastric reflux, bad

> digestion and

>> a particularly nasty spate of probably parasitic infection last

> year.

>> I'd be very interested if anyone has any personal experience on

>> self-treatment or updated information on reliable diagnostic tools.

>> I know in the past Rich and others has posted some useful

> suggestions

>> for this, which I've gone back and read.

>>

>> Background - I've had ME/CFS for 13 years and about 4 years ago I

>> developed uncomfortable gastric reflux - more than a lump in the

>> chest feeling, more a nasty burning sensation particularly at

> night.

>> This met with the usual GP's diagnosis of excess stomach acid, and

>> the usual prescription of a proton-pump inhibitor (PPI), in my case

>> Lansoprazole, which worked, in the sense that the reflux went away,

>> returning any day I didn't pop the pill. I never liked it much

> though:

>> the idea that if there's an excess of something, just suppress it

>> without explanation.

>>

>> Two years ago my stomach turned very nasty (chronic periodic

> diarrhea

>> and disabling stomach cramps lasting days on end), accompanied by a

>> fairly catastrophic relapse in health, that's left me house/bed-

> bound

>> since then. This was eventually thought to be due to Blastocystis

>> Hominis by a private doctor, I took a whopping course of

> antibiotics

>> (because it's notororiously hard to kill) and over a long trailing

>> period my stomach symptoms mostly improved. I still can't however

>> tolerate sucrose and I have occasional bad episodes.

>>

>> At the same time I went on a very restricted diet, and my reflux

> nearly

>> instantly disappeared - I stopped taking my PPIs as I didn't need

> to

>> take them. My diet's relaxed now, but with my reflux not returned

> in

>> anything but very occasional mild appearances - I can only put

> this down

>> the lack of sugar in my diet, I guess.

>>

>> Anyway, I've been reading up on the theory that many or even most

>> cases of reflux may be caused by *low* stomach acidity, rather than

>> high - not quite understanding how, but I think the body reacts to

> the

>> low acidity in a way that causes reflux symptoms identical to

> having

>> high acidity in the first place. I'm still unsure how orthodox

> this

>> theory is. Although I don't currently have a reflux problem, I'm

>> much more concerned with whether I do have a low acidity problem,

> and

>> those blasted PPIs just excerbated it, lowering my gastric system's

>> ability to fight off bacterial infections - which may have either

>> helped the parasites to grow, or helped opportunistic bacterial

>> infections to foster.

>>

>> So I did as suggested by performing two home tests in the last few

> days:

>>

>> 1) The burp test: 1/4 teaspoon of bicarbonate of soda on waking -

>> and time when you burp. Someone with normal acidity should burp

>> within 2 minutes as a reaction between the bicarb and the acid.

>> I tried this twice and didn't burp for 20-30 minutes! My partner

>> (who's well) took 3 minutes.

>>

>> 2) Try incremental supplementations with Betaine HCl (hydrochloric

> acid)

>> - on an empty stomach, one the first morning, see if I feel any

> gastric

>> symptoms, two the next morning etc.; and to back off when I get any

>> symptoms, concluding that the amount of HCl I took on the previous

> day

>> is the " correct " one for me. So far I'm up to taking 2x600mg HCl

> this

>> morning, and noticed little or no reaction in terms of burning

> sensation

>> or reflux. The type I'm taking is Biocare's HCl + Pepsin. The

> theory

>> is that this will then work out your " correct " dosage of HCl per

> meal.

>>

>> Can anyone tell me if I'm doing this right, and the results of

>> these two tests are reliable, in the sense that it appears that

> they

>> really do indicate that I've had low rather than high stomach

> acidity

>> all along? Or if not, if there are more reliable tests? How

> reliable

>> is test 2 above, in that if I don't react to 2x600mg HCl on an

> empty

>> stomach, I should really be going as far as supplementing 3x600mg

> per

>> meal, three times a day?

>>

>> Also, can anyone tell me if they've been successful in relieving

>> gastric problems by supplementing with HCl? Has it helped anyone's

>> digestion, reflux, or resistance to bacterial infections?

>>

>> Finally, is there anything else I should be taking with it? Could

> I

>> do any harm by taking HCl self-prescribed? I ask the latter

> because I

>> suspect what my family doctor's response would be if I ask - to

> shrug

>> and refer me to the local gastric clinic, with a months-long wait,

>> who will tut a lot.

>>

>> I've asked a lot of questions - sorry! But I'd be grateful for any

>> response, anecdotal or otherwise.

>>

>> Honey

>>

>

August 15, 2006

Thanks Barb! Yes I think I saw your previous post about your husband's

problems on reviewing the list archive before posting today - was it

your husband who nibbles a cracker before meals?

Could you give me any pointers to information on what specific foods fit

well with acid production at different times of the day?

Honey

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, Barb Peck wrote:

> Very well written post.

> I had the mechanisms of high acid v low acid explained to me once-

> and why the symptoms are the same but I don't think I can recount

> them accurately now. Suffice it to say- they are the same and in

> order for Docs to tell if it's high or low, an invasive test has to

> be done to sample the actual gastric juices.

>

> My husband has a touch of low acid- and is bothered from time to

> time. The literature mentions as we age, we produce less acid- so

> digestive problems become more common.

>

> I've done a fair amount of reading on the subject- and it appears

> when raising the acid by pill (HCL caps) it's hard to control the

> dose with the acid capsules, and it was suggested that my huband

> change his eating habits as a first try.

>

> The change in his eating habits had to do with understanding how the

> acid is produced- and the habits more with the WAY he ate, and when

> he ate, and how long it took to eat.

>

> Salivation is the first test in producing acid. So I guess

> appetizers ARE good for something.

>

> In any case- he alleviated his problem with knowing what to eat

> when, preparing your brain for food, and to eat slowly. There are

> specific foods that digest better at certain times of the day

> (stomach acid isn't the same in the am as Pm) . If that didn't work,

> he was going to try some digestive aids (enzymes) prior to eating.

>

> So- maybe this will work for you - if your problem is truly low acid

> (certainly sounds like that's the case).

>

> Good luck.

> Barb

>

>>

>> Hi all,

>>

>> In the last few days I've been looking into issues of low stomach

>> acidity as a possible cause or factor in various gastric problems

> I've

>> had over the last few years including gastric reflux, bad digestion

> and

>> a particularly nasty spate of probably parasitic infection last

> year.

>> I'd be very interested if anyone has any personal experience on

>> self-treatment or updated information on reliable diagnostic tools.

>> I know in the past Rich and others has posted some useful

> suggestions

>> for this, which I've gone back and read.

>>

>> Background - I've had ME/CFS for 13 years and about 4 years ago I

>> developed uncomfortable gastric reflux - more than a lump in the

>> chest feeling, more a nasty burning sensation particularly at night.

>> This met with the usual GP's diagnosis of excess stomach acid, and

>> the usual prescription of a proton-pump inhibitor (PPI), in my case

>> Lansoprazole, which worked, in the sense that the reflux went away,

>> returning any day I didn't pop the pill. I never liked it much

> though:

>> the idea that if there's an excess of something, just suppress it

>> without explanation.

>>

>> Two years ago my stomach turned very nasty (chronic periodic

> diarrhea

>> and disabling stomach cramps lasting days on end), accompanied by a

>> fairly catastrophic relapse in health, that's left me house/bed-

> bound

>> since then. This was eventually thought to be due to Blastocystis

>> Hominis by a private doctor, I took a whopping course of antibiotics

>> (because it's notororiously hard to kill) and over a long trailing

>> period my stomach symptoms mostly improved. I still can't however

>> tolerate sucrose and I have occasional bad episodes.

>>

>> At the same time I went on a very restricted diet, and my reflux

> nearly

>> instantly disappeared - I stopped taking my PPIs as I didn't need to

>> take them. My diet's relaxed now, but with my reflux not returned

> in

>> anything but very occasional mild appearances - I can only put this

> down

>> the lack of sugar in my diet, I guess.

>>

>> Anyway, I've been reading up on the theory that many or even most

>> cases of reflux may be caused by *low* stomach acidity, rather than

>> high - not quite understanding how, but I think the body reacts to

> the

>> low acidity in a way that causes reflux symptoms identical to having

>> high acidity in the first place. I'm still unsure how orthodox this

>> theory is. Although I don't currently have a reflux problem, I'm

>> much more concerned with whether I do have a low acidity problem,

> and

>> those blasted PPIs just excerbated it, lowering my gastric system's

>> ability to fight off bacterial infections - which may have either

>> helped the parasites to grow, or helped opportunistic bacterial

>> infections to foster.

>>

>> So I did as suggested by performing two home tests in the last few

> days:

>>

>> 1) The burp test: 1/4 teaspoon of bicarbonate of soda on waking -

>> and time when you burp. Someone with normal acidity should burp

>> within 2 minutes as a reaction between the bicarb and the acid.

>> I tried this twice and didn't burp for 20-30 minutes! My partner

>> (who's well) took 3 minutes.

>>

>> 2) Try incremental supplementations with Betaine HCl (hydrochloric

> acid)

>> - on an empty stomach, one the first morning, see if I feel any

> gastric

>> symptoms, two the next morning etc.; and to back off when I get any

>> symptoms, concluding that the amount of HCl I took on the previous

> day

>> is the " correct " one for me. So far I'm up to taking 2x600mg HCl

> this

>> morning, and noticed little or no reaction in terms of burning

> sensation

>> or reflux. The type I'm taking is Biocare's HCl + Pepsin. The

> theory

>> is that this will then work out your " correct " dosage of HCl per

> meal.

>>

>> Can anyone tell me if I'm doing this right, and the results of

>> these two tests are reliable, in the sense that it appears that they

>> really do indicate that I've had low rather than high stomach

> acidity

>> all along? Or if not, if there are more reliable tests? How

> reliable

>> is test 2 above, in that if I don't react to 2x600mg HCl on an empty

>> stomach, I should really be going as far as supplementing 3x600mg

> per

>> meal, three times a day?

>>

>> Also, can anyone tell me if they've been successful in relieving

>> gastric problems by supplementing with HCl? Has it helped anyone's

>> digestion, reflux, or resistance to bacterial infections?

>>

>> Finally, is there anything else I should be taking with it? Could I

>> do any harm by taking HCl self-prescribed? I ask the latter

> because I

>> suspect what my family doctor's response would be if I ask - to

> shrug

>> and refer me to the local gastric clinic, with a months-long wait,

>> who will tut a lot.

>>

>> I've asked a lot of questions - sorry! But I'd be grateful for any

>> response, anecdotal or otherwise.

>>

>> Honey

>>

>

August 15, 2006

Thanks for the pointer - I didn't know Cheney mentioned this too.

Helpful information thanks. I couldn't see the link to the forum

mentioned at the bottom of your post - maybe it's my mail reader - could

you resend the link?

Thanks, Honey

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, notmyd4y wrote:

> Low stomach acid seems to be a wide spread problem for many people

> who have CFS and digestion problems.

> As I understood it, the reason for reflux in case of low stomach

> acid is that the stomach refuses to pass its content and tries to

> get rid of it by going the other way.

>

> Cheney mentions it as well:

>

> " Third System Down: Liver/Gut

>

> The next thing affected is your liver/gut. Probably the very first

> thing you'll notice is that there are fewer and fewer foods you can

> tolerate. If it gets really bad, there will be only a handful of

> foods you'll be able to eat—for a lot of odd reasons. In part

> because microcirculation is necessary for proper digestion. Also,

> your body won't secrete digestive juices so you won't digest your

> food. If you can't digest your food you'll get peptides that are

> only partially digested and highly immune-reactive. They'll leak out

> of your gut [into your bloodstream] and you'll get food allergies

> and/or sensitivities. "

>

> HCL supplements are a good way to find out if you are low in stomach

> acid. Some people and me can take 2g and more without getting a

> warming sensation however I only take 600-1200mg for normal foods

> and 1800 for meat and foods with much protein.

> Since I only eat low carb foods my digestion got better but it's

> still a long way to the top and I do not take HCL for all meals.

>

> Here is a site/forum where you will find some threads with questions

> about HCL. Take a look.

>

August 15, 2006

I'm inclined to agree, Bernie - I tried repeatedly to look for other

intolerances and didn't find anything after a years exhaustive

self-testing. I kind of gave up.

But the question is specifically what deteriorates with age? I don't

have a reflux problem just now as described previously, but was using

its previous presence as a diagnostic of more serious problems now,

including suspect low acidity. Does stomach acidity tend to lower or

raise with age, or fluctuate both ways? If its too low, my

understanding is that this opens you up to the possibility of serious

bacterial infection, and as it can be renormalized seemingly easily,

that's what I'm interested in looking at.

Honey

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, bernieanneca wrote:

>

>>

>> It seems very significant to me that restricting your diet has helped

> so much. That suggests allergies to foods or intolerances.

>

> ***Hi Adrienne and Honey - As we age it is not unusual to start having

> problems with acid reflux. Fried foods, chocolate, and alcohol are

> common triggers. This has nothing to do with allergies or food

> intolerances. Our stomachs just can't handle some foods the same way as

> when we were younger.

>

> Take care.

>

> Bernie

>

August 15, 2006

Hi Rich,

I've really struggled with this for a year, with no clear results -

so many people seem to get clear intolerances after a matter of hours

or at least days, but after applying the scientific method time and

again I really can see no consistent pattern except (probably!) to

sucrose - 24-48 afterwards I usually either get gastric problems and/or

bad fluey malaise. But no, no clear problems with milk or starches.

To be honest, when I restarted starches after my diet-from-hell,

I actually improved.

It does seem odd that it's *just* sucrose doesn't it? I seem to be

able to eat fruit ok now without major problems, so fructose is ok.

I know next to nothing about biochemistry, but aren't they all just

monosaccharides? It may of course be the concentration, or additives,

as sugary treats like chocolate of course tend to come with them.

Maybe I need to do some extensive testing with... mmm Green & Black's

organic chocolate... wonder if I can get it on prescription.

I don't really understand why I developed this intolerance - I had no

problem with sucrose for 10 years' of ME... any clues welcome.

Honey

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, rvankonynen wrote:

> Hi, Honey.

>

> What about milk and starches. Do they cause problems for you, too?

> Or is sucrose the only thing? If these others cause problems, too,

> then I think the disaccharidase deficiency theory of Elaine

> Gottschall may fit your case. If not, then perhaps not.

>

> Rich

>

>>

>> Hi Rich,

>

>> It does seem very odd to me that *only* sucrose seems to cause a

>> reaction (and never did before elimination diets). I don't seem

> to have

>> a problem with carbohydrates in any other form. Wouldn't this

> indicate

>> that it's a more specific problem or intolerance than one that the

> SCD

>> might help?

>>

>> Honey

>

August 15, 2006

Hi MJH,

Lemon and vinegar doesn't agree with me. Sadly, it doesn't help the stomach

problems at all.

A pity as I would like to use something in my fridge or cupboard instead.

Kindest regards,

Annette

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August 15, 2006

HAve you tried just a spoonful of sugar? (It helps the medicine go down,lol.)

Adrienne

Re: Re: HCl, the burp test, gastric reflux, and

low stomach acid