Guest guest Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 Lyme Angel sent a post today on IV mannitol for ciguatera poisoning. She asked if this might not work to treat babesia since she said that babesia has " an epicoplast that is eveolved from cyanobacteria and for all we know releases a similar toxin. " I am sending this concept here to see if anyone is familar with the use of IV mannitol for cfs? (I don't know if this would have any connection to why Ambertose works for some people since it is not IV.) http://www.phoenix-cfs.org/The%20SITE/ChannelopathyCFS.htm CIGUATERA TOXIN AND A CHANNELOPATHY IN CFS Hokama, Y., Shirai, B, Wang, C., Chun, K., Higa, N., Suma, C., Uto, G., Enlander, D. and A Coccheto. 2002. Acute Phase Lipids in Sera of Various Disease; Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Ciguatera and Varioius Cancer with Antigenic Epitope Resembling Ciguatoxin as Determined with MAB CTX. International Symposium on Toxins and Natural Products Okinawa, Japan, November 17 - 19, 2002. Hokama, Y, Whang, C., Chun, K. F., Suma, C . and N. Higa, 2003. Chronic Phase Lipids in Sera of Several Chronic Diseases Reacting with MAB–CTX (Antibody to Ciguatoxin) Journal of Toxicology. Vol. 22, No. 4, pp. 547–554. Hokama, Y., Uto, G., Palafox, N. A., Enlander, D., Jordan, E. and A. Cocchetto 2003. Chronic Phase Lipids in Sera of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS), Chronic Ciguatera Fish Poisoning (CCFP), Hepatitis B, and Cancer With Antigenic Epitope Resembling Ciguatoxin, as Assessed With MAb-CTX. Journal of Clinical Laboratory Analysis 17:132–139. Pearn, J. 2001. Neurology of Ciguatera. J. Neurol. Neurosurg. Psychiatry 70: 4-8. Here is a link to mannitol treatment for ciguatera done by Blythe, Sylva who seem to be experts on this treatment in Florida. http://www.bigbendsportsman.com/medicine/ciguatera.htm For help with this treatment, call the Ciguatera Hotline at (305) 361- 4619 or (305) 661-0774. Here is another link suggesting mannitol IV for RSD. They are suggesting RSD is caused by inflammation and edema. They are not looking for an underlying infection, but it seems likely that the mannitol may be clearing some toxin, not just reducing inflammation in RSD cases – hey we don't know what causes RSD, do we? (Lots of Lyme and cfs cases get this label.) http://www.rsdrx.com/rsdpuz4.0/puz_111.htm a Carnes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 The IV mannitol somehow quiets down the sodium channel upregulation that occurs from the toxin. I asked her to post that for me on MMI because I left MMI after a short time as I found the list so exasperating (aka negative, focussed on antibiotics, and tending to want to excoriate rather than work with the press, or so my impressions ran, not to say there aren't some terrific people on there). I figure maybe Ritchie Shoemaker will answer. > > Lyme Angel sent a post today on IV mannitol for ciguatera poisoning. > She asked if this might not work to treat babesia since she said that > babesia has " an epicoplast that is eveolved from cyanobacteria and > for all we know releases a similar toxin. " I am sending this concept > here to see if anyone is familar with the use of IV mannitol for cfs? > (I don't know if this would have any connection to why Ambertose > works for some people since it is not IV.) > > http://www.phoenix-cfs.org/The%20SITE/ChannelopathyCFS.htm > > CIGUATERA TOXIN AND A CHANNELOPATHY IN CFS > > Hokama, Y., Shirai, B, Wang, C., Chun, K., Higa, N., Suma, C., Uto, > G., Enlander, D. and A Coccheto. 2002. Acute Phase Lipids in Sera of > Various Disease; Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Ciguatera and Varioius > Cancer with Antigenic Epitope Resembling Ciguatoxin as Determined > with MAB CTX. International Symposium on Toxins and Natural Products > Okinawa, Japan, November 17 - 19, 2002. > > Hokama, Y, Whang, C., Chun, K. F., Suma, C . and N. Higa, 2003. > Chronic Phase Lipids in Sera of Several Chronic Diseases Reacting > with MAB–CTX (Antibody to Ciguatoxin) Journal of Toxicology. Vol. 22, > No. 4, pp. 547–554. > > Hokama, Y., Uto, G., Palafox, N. A., Enlander, D., Jordan, E. and A. > Cocchetto 2003. Chronic Phase Lipids in Sera of Chronic Fatigue > Syndrome (CFS), Chronic Ciguatera Fish Poisoning (CCFP), Hepatitis B, > and Cancer With Antigenic Epitope Resembling Ciguatoxin, as Assessed > With MAb-CTX. Journal of Clinical Laboratory Analysis 17:132–139. > > Pearn, J. 2001. Neurology of Ciguatera. J. Neurol. Neurosurg. > Psychiatry 70: 4-8. > > > > Here is a link to mannitol treatment for ciguatera done by Blythe, > Sylva who seem to be experts on this treatment in Florida. > > > > http://www.bigbendsportsman.com/medicine/ciguatera.htm > > > > For help with this treatment, call the Ciguatera Hotline at (305) 361- > 4619 or (305) 661-0774. > > > > Here is another link suggesting mannitol IV for RSD. They are > suggesting RSD is caused by inflammation and edema. They are not > looking for an underlying infection, but it seems likely that the > mannitol may be clearing some toxin, not just reducing inflammation > in RSD cases – hey we don't know what causes RSD, do we? (Lots of > Lyme and cfs cases get this label.) > > > > http://www.rsdrx.com/rsdpuz4.0/puz_111.htm > > a Carnes > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 BTW, its apicoplast. An organelle that is evolved from cyanobacteria, ancient photosynthesizing bacteria that migrated into plants (chloroplasts) and apparently are in various parasites, too. Meaning that babesia could probably be killed by weedkillers. You may recall my question about this during the month I was on MMI and Ritchie Shoemaker *had* thought about it and used a targetted drug in a horse... It may be meaningless or interesting that babesia wants the red blood cell, since chlorophyll and hemoglobin are very similar in structure. Who knows. Evolution is a strange and endlessly interesting phenomenon. In any case, it seems to me targetting an ancient and primitive structure in an organism would hit it harder, as it would be central to its functioning. I did pursue this idea for a little while and talked to some experts in apicoplasts but then my hard drive crashed and anyway, it's not a line of research that would bear much fruit if the drugs are not legal/available, unless you could find herbs that could do the same thing. However, perhaps some of our chronic illness is due to a vicious cycle that was initially triggered by the infection--and its toxin--as in cigatuera poisoning, therefore, I was just curious about IV mannitol. It seems clear the current treatments we have for babesia are woefully inadequate. > > > > Lyme Angel sent a post today on IV mannitol for ciguatera poisoning. > > She asked if this might not work to treat babesia since she said that > > babesia has " an epicoplast that is eveolved from cyanobacteria and > > for all we know releases a similar toxin. " I am sending this concept > > here to see if anyone is familar with the use of IV mannitol for cfs? > > (I don't know if this would have any connection to why Ambertose > > works for some people since it is not IV.) > > > > http://www.phoenix-cfs.org/The%20SITE/ChannelopathyCFS.htm > > > > CIGUATERA TOXIN AND A CHANNELOPATHY IN CFS > > > > Hokama, Y., Shirai, B, Wang, C., Chun, K., Higa, N., Suma, C., Uto, > > G., Enlander, D. and A Coccheto. 2002. Acute Phase Lipids in Sera of > > Various Disease; Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Ciguatera and Varioius > > Cancer with Antigenic Epitope Resembling Ciguatoxin as Determined > > with MAB CTX. International Symposium on Toxins and Natural Products > > Okinawa, Japan, November 17 - 19, 2002. > > > > Hokama, Y, Whang, C., Chun, K. F., Suma, C . and N. Higa, 2003. > > Chronic Phase Lipids in Sera of Several Chronic Diseases Reacting > > with MAB–CTX (Antibody to Ciguatoxin) Journal of Toxicology. Vol. 22, > > No. 4, pp. 547–554. > > > > Hokama, Y., Uto, G., Palafox, N. A., Enlander, D., Jordan, E. and A. > > Cocchetto 2003. Chronic Phase Lipids in Sera of Chronic Fatigue > > Syndrome (CFS), Chronic Ciguatera Fish Poisoning (CCFP), Hepatitis B, > > and Cancer With Antigenic Epitope Resembling Ciguatoxin, as Assessed > > With MAb-CTX. Journal of Clinical Laboratory Analysis 17:132–139. > > > > Pearn, J. 2001. Neurology of Ciguatera. J. Neurol. Neurosurg. > > Psychiatry 70: 4-8. > > > > > > > > Here is a link to mannitol treatment for ciguatera done by Blythe, > > Sylva who seem to be experts on this treatment in Florida. > > > > > > > > http://www.bigbendsportsman.com/medicine/ciguatera.htm > > > > > > > > For help with this treatment, call the Ciguatera Hotline at (305) 361- > > 4619 or (305) 661-0774. > > > > > > > > Here is another link suggesting mannitol IV for RSD. They are > > suggesting RSD is caused by inflammation and edema. They are not > > looking for an underlying infection, but it seems likely that the > > mannitol may be clearing some toxin, not just reducing inflammation > > in RSD cases – hey we don't know what causes RSD, do we? (Lots of > > Lyme and cfs cases get this label.) > > > > > > > > http://www.rsdrx.com/rsdpuz4.0/puz_111.htm > > > > a Carnes > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 Indeed, Shoemaker did reply almost immediately. In a word, IV manitol does not work for chronic ciguatera. He said even those in Coral Gables who had done the studies found it ineffective in accute cases (double blind study). He also said the ciguatera did not function the same as babesia. Hopefully, Lyme Angel can send you the reply in detail. I apologize for wasting this list's time. a Carnes > > BTW, its apicoplast. An organelle that is evolved from cyanobacteria, > ancient photosynthesizing bacteria that migrated into plants > (chloroplasts) and apparently are in various parasites, too. Meaning > that babesia could probably be killed by weedkillers. You may recall > my question about this during the month I was on MMI and Ritchie > Shoemaker *had* thought about it and used a targetted drug in a horse... > > It may be meaningless or interesting that babesia wants the red blood > cell, since chlorophyll and hemoglobin are very similar in structure. > Who knows. Evolution is a strange and endlessly interesting > phenomenon. In any case, it seems to me targetting an ancient and > primitive structure in an organism would hit it harder, as it would be > central to its functioning. I did pursue this idea for a little while > and talked to some experts in apicoplasts but then my hard drive > crashed and anyway, it's not a line of research that would bear much > fruit if the drugs are not legal/available, unless you could find > herbs that could do the same thing. > > However, perhaps some of our chronic illness is due to a vicious cycle > that was initially triggered by the infection--and its toxin--as in > cigatuera poisoning, therefore, I was just curious about IV mannitol. > > It seems clear the current treatments we have for babesia are woefully > inadequate. > > > > > > > > Lyme Angel sent a post today on IV mannitol for ciguatera poisoning. > > > She asked if this might not work to treat babesia since she said that > > > babesia has " an epicoplast that is eveolved from cyanobacteria and > > > for all we know releases a similar toxin. " I am sending this concept > > > here to see if anyone is familar with the use of IV mannitol for cfs? > > > (I don't know if this would have any connection to why Ambertose > > > works for some people since it is not IV.) > > > > > > http://www.phoenix-cfs.org/The%20SITE/ChannelopathyCFS.htm > > > > > > CIGUATERA TOXIN AND A CHANNELOPATHY IN CFS > > > > > > Hokama, Y., Shirai, B, Wang, C., Chun, K., Higa, N., Suma, C., Uto, > > > G., Enlander, D. and A Coccheto. 2002. Acute Phase Lipids in Sera of > > > Various Disease; Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Ciguatera and Varioius > > > Cancer with Antigenic Epitope Resembling Ciguatoxin as Determined > > > with MAB CTX. International Symposium on Toxins and Natural Products > > > Okinawa, Japan, November 17 - 19, 2002. > > > > > > Hokama, Y, Whang, C., Chun, K. F., Suma, C . and N. Higa, 2003. > > > Chronic Phase Lipids in Sera of Several Chronic Diseases Reacting > > > with MAB–CTX (Antibody to Ciguatoxin) Journal of Toxicology. Vol. 22, > > > No. 4, pp. 547–554. > > > > > > Hokama, Y., Uto, G., Palafox, N. A., Enlander, D., Jordan, E. and A. > > > Cocchetto 2003. Chronic Phase Lipids in Sera of Chronic Fatigue > > > Syndrome (CFS), Chronic Ciguatera Fish Poisoning (CCFP), Hepatitis B, > > > and Cancer With Antigenic Epitope Resembling Ciguatoxin, as Assessed > > > With MAb-CTX. Journal of Clinical Laboratory Analysis 17:132– 139. > > > > > > Pearn, J. 2001. Neurology of Ciguatera. J. Neurol. Neurosurg. > > > Psychiatry 70: 4-8. > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is a link to mannitol treatment for ciguatera done by Blythe, > > > Sylva who seem to be experts on this treatment in Florida. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.bigbendsportsman.com/medicine/ciguatera.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > For help with this treatment, call the Ciguatera Hotline at (305) 361- > > > 4619 or (305) 661-0774. > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is another link suggesting mannitol IV for RSD. They are > > > suggesting RSD is caused by inflammation and edema. They are not > > > looking for an underlying infection, but it seems likely that the > > > mannitol may be clearing some toxin, not just reducing inflammation > > > in RSD cases – hey we don't know what causes RSD, do we? (Lots of > > > Lyme and cfs cases get this label.) > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.rsdrx.com/rsdpuz4.0/puz_111.htm > > > > > > a Carnes > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 Yes, but several doctors on Garry Gordon's list differ. They have used it in actue and chronic cigatuera poisoning and found it effective. Also, as for cigatuera and babesia being different, sure, but that doesn't prove that their toxin is radically different--it may be a toxin evolved from cyanobacteria and share properties. Oh well, he's probably the only one on that list who will answer, and I don't necessarily find his answer that informative. > > > > > > > > Lyme Angel sent a post today on IV mannitol for ciguatera > poisoning. > > > > She asked if this might not work to treat babesia since she > said that > > > > babesia has " an epicoplast that is eveolved from cyanobacteria > and > > > > for all we know releases a similar toxin. " I am sending this > concept > > > > here to see if anyone is familar with the use of IV mannitol > for cfs? > > > > (I don't know if this would have any connection to why > Ambertose > > > > works for some people since it is not IV.) > > > > > > > > http://www.phoenix-cfs.org/The%20SITE/ChannelopathyCFS.htm > > > > > > > > CIGUATERA TOXIN AND A CHANNELOPATHY IN CFS > > > > > > > > Hokama, Y., Shirai, B, Wang, C., Chun, K., Higa, N., Suma, C., > Uto, > > > > G., Enlander, D. and A Coccheto. 2002. Acute Phase Lipids in > Sera of > > > > Various Disease; Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Ciguatera and > Varioius > > > > Cancer with Antigenic Epitope Resembling Ciguatoxin as > Determined > > > > with MAB CTX. International Symposium on Toxins and Natural > Products > > > > Okinawa, Japan, November 17 - 19, 2002. > > > > > > > > Hokama, Y, Whang, C., Chun, K. F., Suma, C . and N. Higa, 2003. > > > > Chronic Phase Lipids in Sera of Several Chronic Diseases > Reacting > > > > with MAB–CTX (Antibody to Ciguatoxin) Journal of Toxicology. > Vol. 22, > > > > No. 4, pp. 547–554. > > > > > > > > Hokama, Y., Uto, G., Palafox, N. A., Enlander, D., Jordan, E. > and A. > > > > Cocchetto 2003. Chronic Phase Lipids in Sera of Chronic Fatigue > > > > Syndrome (CFS), Chronic Ciguatera Fish Poisoning (CCFP), > Hepatitis B, > > > > and Cancer With Antigenic Epitope Resembling Ciguatoxin, as > Assessed > > > > With MAb-CTX. Journal of Clinical Laboratory Analysis 17:132– > 139. > > > > > > > > Pearn, J. 2001. Neurology of Ciguatera. J. Neurol. Neurosurg. > > > > Psychiatry 70: 4-8. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is a link to mannitol treatment for ciguatera done by > Blythe, > > > > Sylva who seem to be experts on this treatment in Florida. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.bigbendsportsman.com/medicine/ciguatera.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For help with this treatment, call the Ciguatera Hotline at > (305) 361- > > > > 4619 or (305) 661-0774. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is another link suggesting mannitol IV for RSD. They are > > > > suggesting RSD is caused by inflammation and edema. They are > not > > > > looking for an underlying infection, but it seems likely that > the > > > > mannitol may be clearing some toxin, not just reducing > inflammation > > > > in RSD cases – hey we don't know what causes RSD, do we? (Lots > of > > > > Lyme and cfs cases get this label.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.rsdrx.com/rsdpuz4.0/puz_111.htm > > > > > > > > a Carnes > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2006 Report Share Posted August 5, 2006 Jill, The very people who first published that IV manitol would relieve ciguatera poisoning did a double blind study and found that it did not work. I would say that is pretty valuable information. They, of all people, would have a vested interest in the stuff working, and it did not. I like that kind of evidence even if it disappoints. This is the kind of information I use to decide to turn in another direction. You can only focus on so much information and have to take that fork in the road sometimes. I did not repost all of Shoemaker's response as I don't feel I have the right to do that. I just paraphrased his basic reply. I regret that I did even that at this point. Shoemaker is arguably our best expert on biotoxins. I appreciate that he shares at all. So many of our best medical friends have gone down in internet flames. It is sad. Is there a double blind study or even a case study from the " several doctors on Garry Gordon's list " for IV Manitol and what did they use it for, babesia? Sincerely, a Carnes > > Yes, but several doctors on Garry Gordon's list differ. They have used > it in actue and chronic cigatuera poisoning and found it effective. > > Also, as for cigatuera and babesia being different, sure, but that > doesn't prove that their toxin is radically different--it may be a > toxin evolved from cyanobacteria and share properties. > > Oh well, he's probably the only one on that list who will answer, and > I don't necessarily find his answer that informative. > > > > > > Indeed, Shoemaker did reply almost immediately. In a word, IV manitol > > does not work for chronic ciguatera. He said even those in Coral > > Gables who had done the studies found it ineffective in accute cases > > (double blind study). He also said the ciguatera did not function the > > same as babesia. > > > > Hopefully, Lyme Angel can send you the reply in detail. > > > > I apologize for wasting this list's time. > > > > a Carnes > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 I'll pursue the other doctors' experiences. I saw the post from Dr. Shoemaker, and he views the cigatuera, fungal and biotoxins as three separate entities. He notes that they all can affect toll-like receptors, but my question is still the same...but I'm so interested in Yasko right now I don't want to aggressively pursue this. BTW, I am just not as enamored of Shoemaker's work as you are. I think he over-rates the effectiveness of CSM, and that's just from anecdotal reports and my own experience. I do not see him as our best source on biotoxins. > > > > > > Indeed, Shoemaker did reply almost immediately. In a word, IV > manitol > > > does not work for chronic ciguatera. He said even those in Coral > > > Gables who had done the studies found it ineffective in accute > cases > > > (double blind study). He also said the ciguatera did not function > the > > > same as babesia. > > > > > > Hopefully, Lyme Angel can send you the reply in detail. > > > > > > I apologize for wasting this list's time. > > > > > > a Carnes > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2006 Report Share Posted August 6, 2006 Whoops, I see I didn't answer the end question. Nobody used it for babesia. They used it for acute and chronic cigatuera poisoning. My connection to babesia is one in my own head, via the common heritage of the organisms and thus possibly the toxins. > > > > > > Indeed, Shoemaker did reply almost immediately. In a word, IV > manitol > > > does not work for chronic ciguatera. He said even those in Coral > > > Gables who had done the studies found it ineffective in accute > cases > > > (double blind study). He also said the ciguatera did not function > the > > > same as babesia. > > > > > > Hopefully, Lyme Angel can send you the reply in detail. > > > > > > I apologize for wasting this list's time. > > > > > > a Carnes > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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