Re: Yasko vs. DAN Docs - Methylation

[Guest guest]

Hi, Bill.

There is quite a lot in common between the DAN! approaches to the

treatment of autism and Dr. Yasko's approach, but there are also

some differences. I think both would agree that the fundamental

issues in producing autism are SNPs in methylation-cycle-related

enzymes, combined with exposure to various insults, including toxins

and pathogens. Many of the supplements they use are the same,

including the ones you mentioned.

They do differ on some of the science of what various SNPs do to the

biochemistry. They also differ on how much they rely on

characterizing the SNPs vs. operating by experience and trial-and-

error. Dr. Yasko based her treatment on characterizing the SNPs,

and tailors the treatment to them. The DAN! folks operate more by

trial-and-error. Their belief is that not enough is understood

about the SNPs to use this information operationally, and that one

ends up doing trial-and-error either way. I think Dr. Yasko's

approach is inherently more complex, because she tries to take more

things into account to fit the treatment to the individual patient,

but I think she makes a good case for why this is necessary. There

are some very different subsets, depending on the combination of

SNPs, and a treatment that will help one will make another worse.

Dr. Yasko has worked out a lot of things in her own mind, based on a

combination of the published literature and her experience with

autistic kids. Some of this has not been published in the peer-

reviwed literature or tested independently. In this sense, I would

say that she operates somewhat like Dr. Cheney does in CFS. There

are certainly pros and cons about this, and more orthodox scientists

don't approve of this type of approach. It takes much longer to get

things accepted by going the publication route, but the testing is

more rigorous this way, and eventually you have a better chance of

your approach being accepted as standard practice. But that can

take a very long time, and in the meantime, the autistic children

grow older, and it's more difficult to fix their lack of brain

development. I can see both sides of this.

I prefer Dr. Yasko's approach, because at least in concept it

attempts to base treatment on the most basic of root causes, the

genetics. That appeals to me, since I have a physics background,

and that's the approach used in physics--start with the most

elementary particles of matter and apply " first principles. " It's a

powerful approach if you can develop a thorough enough understanding

at this level. It's also a difficult approach to apply when you are

working with a very complex system, with many pieces, because it's

hard to deal with all the interactions in an exact way.

I do think both have more to learn, and I think they are working

hard at trying to learn more.

Rich

>

> i am trying to digest the info at Autism Answer, and it is

difficult

> because there is so much. i am glad that Dr Yasko has done all

this

> work and i am glad that Rich has been so helpful in translating so

much

> of it, but it is overwhleming for my brain right now..

>

> i have a pretty basic question:

>

> where does Dr Yasko fit in terms of tha DAN (Defeat Autism Now)

> theories about Autism and in turn CFS?

>

> is the basic theory still the same: that SNPs in the Methylation

and

> Detox cycles are inhibiting our ability to filter out toxins. and

that

> the main thing we need to do is get the methylation cycle working

again.

>

> if so, are the main treatments still the same in order to get the

> methylation cycle up and running again?

>

> Methyl B-12

> Folinic Acid

> TMG

> Taurine

>

> thanks

> bill

>

[Guest guest]

rich

thanks for the reply. that is very helpful as i sift through the

various material on Yasko's site.

i think my brain, in its malfuncitioning state, is better able to

understand info if i know what the base belief system is - much the

same way you talk about physics. knowing that Dr Yasko is not totally

in line with DAN! actually makes it easier for me to process the info

on her site.

i know that the general theory is that CFS and Autism have the same

root causes, but when you read info that is really tailored to

treating autistic kids it makes it a little more difficult to say:

how can i apply this to CFS. it's just another layer that for someone

who is not processing info in the most ideal way makes it that much

more difficult.

it seems that Dr Yakso has a whole other element to her theories

seperate from DAN! and that is the RNA stuff. have you gotten into

that at all? and do you think that these RNA treatments might also

help PWCs?

also, is it important to supplement Folinic acid as well as the

FolaPro at the same time? do they do different things?

thanks

bill

> >

> > i am trying to digest the info at Autism Answer, and it is

> difficult

> > because there is so much. i am glad that Dr Yasko has done all

> this

> > work and i am glad that Rich has been so helpful in translating

so

> much

> > of it, but it is overwhleming for my brain right now..

> >

> > i have a pretty basic question:

> >

> > where does Dr Yasko fit in terms of tha DAN (Defeat Autism Now)

> > theories about Autism and in turn CFS?

> >

> > is the basic theory still the same: that SNPs in the Methylation

> and

> > Detox cycles are inhibiting our ability to filter out toxins. and

> that

> > the main thing we need to do is get the methylation cycle working

> again.

> >

> > if so, are the main treatments still the same in order to get the

> > methylation cycle up and running again?

> >

> > Methyl B-12

> > Folinic Acid

> > TMG

> > Taurine

> >

> > thanks

> > bill

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Bill.

> it seems that Dr Yakso has a whole other element to her theories

> seperate from DAN! and that is the RNA stuff. have you gotten into

> that at all? and do you think that these RNA treatments might also

> help PWCs?

***It may be more involved than this, but I think that the general

rationale for the RNA treatments in autism (and I think it would apply

as well to CFS) is that when there is a block in the methylation

cycle, there is also a block in the folate cycle, because they are

locked together at the enzyme methionine synthase. A healthy folate

metabolism is needed to produce new RNA and DNA, and these are needed

to make new cells, which is going on all the time in the body,

especially in certain places, such as the lining of the gut, and in

the production of various kinds of blood (and immune) cells. Dr.

Yasko uses the RNA treatments to support this part of the metabolism

until the folate metabolism gets going properly again, I believe.

>

> also, is it important to supplement Folinic acid as well as the

> FolaPro at the same time? do they do different things?

***I think this depends on which SNPs are present. The DAN! people

use folinic, but not FolaPro. Dr. Yasko uses both. There is a

difference of opinion about whether the reverse MTHFR SNP is relevant

or not. Dr. Yasko believes it is. She tests for it, and she treats

for it, using FolaPro. Personally, I think she is right about this,

but I'm not sure a good case can be made for it from the peer-reviewed

literature. The issue is whether the MTHFR reaction really runs

backwards under normal physiological conditions in the body, to

produce BH4 (tetrahydrobiopterin), or whether all the BH4 is made by

another enzyme. Dr. Yasko says that the other enzyme can be blocked

by aluminum toxicity, which is especially a problem in females, for

some reason, and that if a person has both the reverse MTHFR SNP and

aluminum toxicity, they don't make enough BH4, and this leads to

problems in making the neurotransmitters, nitric oxide, and running

the urea cycle to deal with ammonia.

>

>

> thanks

> bill

***Rich

[Guest guest]

.. They also differ on how much they rely on

characterizing the SNPs vs. operating by experience and trial-and-

error.

*** A matter of degree.Only maybe is one degree more efficient than the other.

.... a treatment that will help one will make another worse.

***True about a lot of the stuff we try here. It might be better than nothing,

for those who cannot afford the testing, to risk the DAN! route.

Thanks for the question, and thanks for the answer. I am encouraged.

Adrienne

Dr. Yasko has worked out a lot of things in her own mind, based on a

combination of the published literature and her experience with

autistic kids. Some of this has not been published in the peer-

reviwed literature or tested independently. In this sense, I would

say that she operates somewhat like Dr. Cheney does in CFS. There

are certainly pros and cons about this, and more orthodox scientists

don't approve of this type of approach. It takes much longer to get

things accepted by going the publication route, but the testing is

more rigorous this way, and eventually you have a better chance of

your approach being accepted as standard practice. But that can

take a very long time, and in the meantime, the autistic children

grow older, and it's more difficult to fix their lack of brain

development. I can see both sides of this.

I prefer Dr. Yasko's approach, because at least in concept it

attempts to base treatment on the most basic of root causes, the

genetics. That appeals to me, since I have a physics background,

and that's the approach used in physics--start with the most

elementary particles of matter and apply " first principles. " It's a

powerful approach if you can develop a thorough enough understanding

at this level. It's also a difficult approach to apply when you are

working with a very complex system, with many pieces, because it's

hard to deal with all the interactions in an exact way.

I do think both have more to learn, and I think they are working

hard at trying to learn more.

Rich

>

> i am trying to digest the info at Autism Answer, and it is

difficult

> because there is so much. i am glad that Dr Yasko has done all

this

> work and i am glad that Rich has been so helpful in translating so

much

> of it, but it is overwhleming for my brain right now..

>

> i have a pretty basic question:

>

> where does Dr Yasko fit in terms of tha DAN (Defeat Autism Now)

> theories about Autism and in turn CFS?

>

> is the basic theory still the same: that SNPs in the Methylation

and

> Detox cycles are inhibiting our ability to filter out toxins. and

that

> the main thing we need to do is get the methylation cycle working

again.

>

> if so, are the main treatments still the same in order to get the

> methylation cycle up and running again?

>

> Methyl B-12

> Folinic Acid

> TMG

> Taurine

>

> thanks

> bill

>

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

Hi, Blake.

> >

> > i am trying to digest the info at Autism Answer, and it is

> difficult

> > because there is so much. i am glad that Dr Yasko has done all

> this

> > work and i am glad that Rich has been so helpful in

translating so

> much

> > of it, but it is overwhleming for my brain right now..

> >

> > i have a pretty basic question:

> >

> > where does Dr Yasko fit in terms of tha DAN (Defeat Autism

Now)

> > theories about Autism and in turn CFS?

> >

> > is the basic theory still the same: that SNPs in the

Methylation

> and

> > Detox cycles are inhibiting our ability to filter out toxins.

and

> that

> > the main thing we need to do is get the methylation cycle

working

> again.

> >

> > if so, are the main treatments still the same in order to get

the

> > methylation cycle up and running again?

> >

> > Methyl B-12

> > Folinic Acid

> > TMG

> > Taurine

> >

> > thanks

> > bill

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Blake, if you wish (and it would be helpful) email me privately in

more detail about exactly what questions you'd like answered and how

you see these 3 'contradicting' or at least, not lining up with each

other. Email me at jenbooks13@....

I assume I'll be talking to all 3. I have already set up an interview

with one of them. I probably will overdo it and interview tons more

researchers and clinicians than I need to, it's my usual way. That's

the only way I can end up synthesizing the info myself, by overkill .

I think I'm skipping the organic acids test. I figure if I have

ammonia in my urine I'll smell it. Since I have a history of drug

sensitivities, I'm more interested inf indng a way to test my p450

enzymes but I don't yet know how I can pull that off being in lovely

NY State...

> >

> > i am trying to digest the info at Autism Answer, and it is

> difficult

> > because there is so much. i am glad that Dr Yasko has done all

> this

> > work and i am glad that Rich has been so helpful in translating so

> much

> > of it, but it is overwhleming for my brain right now..

> >

> > i have a pretty basic question:

> >

> > where does Dr Yasko fit in terms of tha DAN (Defeat Autism Now)

> > theories about Autism and in turn CFS?

> >

> > is the basic theory still the same: that SNPs in the Methylation

> and

> > Detox cycles are inhibiting our ability to filter out toxins. and

> that

> > the main thing we need to do is get the methylation cycle working

> again.

> >

> > if so, are the main treatments still the same in order to get the

> > methylation cycle up and running again?

> >

> > Methyl B-12

> > Folinic Acid

> > TMG

> > Taurine

> >

> > thanks

> > bill

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

One big shock to me was yesterday, Jill , in her small study of

the autistic kids, where methyl b12, betaine, and folinic acid fixed

their methylation cycles...said the MTHFR gene had NOT shown up

significant, while COMT whatever had...(I took notes...scribbles...)

I have to view a lot more to see where the contradictions are.

My impression from her on DVD was that she was a very kind woman...and

methodical...not one to make big claims...but to go slowly and

carefully, and that she really cares about the kids, and helping.

> > >

> > > i am trying to digest the info at Autism Answer, and it is

> > difficult

> > > because there is so much. i am glad that Dr Yasko has done all

> > this

> > > work and i am glad that Rich has been so helpful in

> translating so

> > much

> > > of it, but it is overwhleming for my brain right now..

> > >

> > > i have a pretty basic question:

> > >

> > > where does Dr Yasko fit in terms of tha DAN (Defeat Autism

> Now)

> > > theories about Autism and in turn CFS?

> > >

> > > is the basic theory still the same: that SNPs in the

> Methylation

> > and

> > > Detox cycles are inhibiting our ability to filter out toxins.

> and

> > that

> > > the main thing we need to do is get the methylation cycle

> working

> > again.

> > >

> > > if so, are the main treatments still the same in order to get

> the

> > > methylation cycle up and running again?

> > >

> > > Methyl B-12

> > > Folinic Acid

> > > TMG

> > > Taurine

> > >

> > > thanks

> > > bill

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Jill

Selenium was one of the first thhings my rheumatologist prescribed in 1998.

Very helpful stuff.

mjh

" The Basil Book "

_http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/_ (http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/)

I had just been meaning to ask why nobody is looking at selenium! And

you mentioned selenium. I have ARG (allegy research group) selenium

solution. Levine basically cured himself of major CFS/MCS by

selenium and other antioxidants. Then he started his company. I don't

take the selenium but probably should.

[Guest guest]

Hi, Jill.

I think that's an accurate impression of Jill .

I'm looking forward to her next study being published. I think an

important point is that there are several different combinations of

SNPs that can cause a person to be vulnerable to developing autism

or CFS.

Rich

>

> One big shock to me was yesterday, Jill , in her small study

of

> the autistic kids, where methyl b12, betaine, and folinic acid

fixed

> their methylation cycles...said the MTHFR gene had NOT shown up

> significant, while COMT whatever had...(I took

notes...scribbles...)

>

> I have to view a lot more to see where the contradictions are.

>

> My impression from her on DVD was that she was a very kind

woman...and

> methodical...not one to make big claims...but to go slowly and

> carefully, and that she really cares about the kids, and helping.

>

[Guest guest]

Yes.

Its interesting Yasko responded to your interpretation...I would think

she is aware of you by now .

I now have in front of me, a ton of DVD's by Yasko...yegads...I'd

better get to the t.v. and pull my laptop into my bedroom.

It's going to be 101 degrees here in NY tomorrow and the next day,

so...good days to stay inside in the a/c and watch these DVDs,

assuming we don't have a power blackout.

I don't think it would hurt to try and get rid of the infections at

the same time, with antimicrobials if possible, natural or synthetic

depending on what you can tolerate.

If hyperbaric is available, it can be a tremendous boon, detoxifying,

correcting many downstream pathologies esp. hypoxia in all tissues,

suppressing bugs, AND helping fix mitochondrial dysfunction imo.

And naturopathic cleansing techniques, rather than binding up with

something like cholestyramine. I know of two people who, just taking

salt/c and doing major naturopathic cleansing ove rthe course of a

year, are now well, from majorly sick with lyme...

Seems to me if you can cleanse a ton of biotoxins, and suppress/kill

bad bugs...you might return to normal that way...but add in this

CFS/autism methylation approach, and you might really have a nice

trifecta .

Rich, I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on lyme. When I get a

chance perhaps I will go find and post some stuff about how and what

it hijacks in the body. Maybe it directly impacts methylation who

knows. Certainly babesia is known to oxidize red blood cell glutathione.

> >

> > One big shock to me was yesterday, Jill , in her small study

> of

> > the autistic kids, where methyl b12, betaine, and folinic acid

> fixed

> > their methylation cycles...said the MTHFR gene had NOT shown up

> > significant, while COMT whatever had...(I took

> notes...scribbles...)

> >

> > I have to view a lot more to see where the contradictions are.

> >

> > My impression from her on DVD was that she was a very kind

> woman...and

> > methodical...not one to make big claims...but to go slowly and

> > carefully, and that she really cares about the kids, and helping.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Jill.

Here's a repost of what I wrote about Lyme back in January:

Hi, Nelly, Sue, Sheila and the group.

Thanks very much for posting this. It has really stimulated my

thinking about why Lyme disease is symptomatologically so similar to

CFS.

First, some review. As we all know, it has been terribly difficult

to do the differential diagnosis between Lyme disease and CFS. The

symptoms overlap considerably, and even the best of the lab tests do

not have the sensitivity and selectivity we would all like to see.

Symptoms are manifestations of the pathophysiology of a disease,

i.e. how the functioning of the body of the sick person is abnormal

as a result of the disease. Therefore, if we see that the symptoms

of two diseases are very similar, we should suspect that they must

have some aspects of pathophysiology in common.

Pathophysiology is intimately involved with abnnormal gene

expression in the cells of the sick person, because gene expression

is a reflection of how the cell is conducting its business, and the

misconduct of the business of the cell is pathophysiology.

Because of this, I was quite struck some time ago when Sheila

reported that Dr. Gow said in a recent talk that he had found that

the gene expression pattern in peripheral blood mononuclear cells

(monocytes and lymphocytes) is " identical " in CFS and Lyme disease.

This implies that the pathophysiology of these two disorders in

these cell types is the same. (Note that we can't say anything

about what's going on in other cell types in the body in these two

disorders from this work. There are no doubt different things that

happen in other cell types between Lyme and CFS, and so this is not

saying that the two are identical in every way. But in these

mononuclear cells, this is saying that the pathophysiology of the

two is the same.)

As you know, I am of the firm view that in at least a large subset

of CFS there is glutathione depletion. In another subset, it looks

as though there are genetic variations in the enzymes that make use

of glutathione (glutathione transferases and glutathione

peroxidases), and the results in terms of pathophysiology are much

the same, even though the first group has low glutathione, and the

second group may have elevated glutathione. In either subset, the

people do not have normal glutathione function.

As you also know, based on the work by the DAN! project in autism, I

now believe that the basic abnormalities in the biochemistry in

autism and CFS are the same or similar. The glutathione depletion

brings down the methylation cycle, and a vicious circle develops

that produces a host of problems because of the depletion of SAMe

(the main methylator in the body), cysteine, glutathione, taurine

and sulfate.

So, if the pathophysiology of CFS involves the inability to use

glutathione effectively, whether because glutathione itself is

depleted or because the enzymes that use it have below-normal

activity, and if the pathophysiology of CFS and Lyme are indeed

identical, then it follows that there must be a problem with the

glutathione system in Lyme disease as well.

With that introduction, let me now review some things I found in the

literature, including the paper to which you (Nelly) drew my

attention. I will give the PubMed ID numbers for the references

that support these statements.

(PMID 1477785) First, in in vitro experiments it has been found

that the growth of Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb), the bacterium that

causes Lyme disease, is decreased by 80% if cysteine is not present

in the culture medium.

(PMID 147785) It has been found that cysteine diffuses passively

into Bb, i.e. there is no active transporter protein that pumps it

into the bacterium.

(PMID 1477785) It has been found that Bb incorporates cysteine in

three of its proteins. One has a mass of 22 kilodaltons. The

others have been identified as outer surface protein A (Osp A), with

a mass of 30 kilodaltons, and outer surface protein B (Osp , with

a mass of 34 kilodaltons.

(PMID 1639493) Bb produces a water-soluble hemolysin. This is a

substance that is able to break down red blood cells and release

their hemoglobin. It is likely that this substance incorporates a

cysteine residue, and this cysteine must be in its reduced state in

order for the hemolysin to break down red blood cells.

(PMID 16390443) Bb does not produce glutathione, which is the

principal non-protein thiol (substance containing an S-H or

sulfhydryl group) in human cells. Instead, Bb cells have a high

concentration (about 1 millimolar) of reduced coenzyme A (CoASH).

Bb also produces a CoA disulfide reductase enzyme that has the

responsibility to keep CoASH in its chemically reduced form, so it

can function. This enzyme is in turn reduced by NADH (reduced

nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide), which is reduced by metabolism

of Bb's fuel. (This is analogous to glutathione reductase in human

cells, which requires NADPH, which in turn is reduced by the pentose

phosphate shunt on glycolysis, which metabolizes glucose as fuel.)

In Bb, CoASH is able to reduce hydrogen peroxide, as glutathione

peroxidase, together with glutathione, do in human cells.

(PMID 11687735) It has been found that when people were infected

with Bb and had the characteristic erythema migrans (bulls-eye

rash), the total thiol and glutathione in blood analysis were found

to be significantly decreased. The activity of glutathione

peroxidase was also significantly decreased. Malondialdehyde, a

marker for lipid peroxidation, was significantly elevated. After

antibiotic treatment with amoxycillin, which eliminated the acute

symptoms of Lyme disease, both the total thiol and the glutathione

levels recovered to normal. However, the glutathione peroxidase

activity was still significantly below normal, and the

malondialdehyde remained significantly elevated. This suggested

that Bb lowers the thiol and glutathione levels in its host, and

inhibits the activity of glutathione peroxidase.

I think this also suggests that while antibiotic therapy eliminates

acute Lyme symptoms and brings recovery of glutathione levels, the

Bb infection may still be suppressing the activity of glutathione

peroxidase, and this may be a mechanism involved in long-term (or

chronic or post-) Lyme disease.

One way in which a pathogen can inhibit its host's glutathione

peroxidase activity is to hoard selenium, because this is a cofactor

for that enzyme. You may recall that that is the mechanism that

Prof. Harry has hypothesized for HIV and AIDS

(http://www.hdfoster.com). I could not find any reference in the

literature connecting Bb and selenium, and I don't know whether

anyone has looked at that. Have any of you who are positive for

Lyme had your selenium level measured?

It seems pretty clear that Bb uses cysteine and that it depletes

glutathione and total thiol (which includes cysteine and protein

thiols as well as glutathione) in its host, at least in the acute

phase. It also suppresses the activity of glutathione peroxidase,

but I'm not sure whether it does it by lowering the host's selenium

level, or by some other means. This suppression appears as though

it could be chronic. I think there is a good chance that this

lowering of glutathione and/or suppressing of the activity of

glutathione peroxidase could very well be the explanation for the

similarities in symptomatology and the " identical " gene expression

in the peripheral blood mononuclear cells in CFS and Lyme disease.

It may also be that a host whose glutathione has been depleted by

other factors may be more vulnerable to developing Lyme disease,

once inoculated with Bb. I am speculating a little here, but this

is exciting!

If this is true, what are the consequences for treatment of long-

term Lyme disease, the subject that Sue raised? I think this

remains to be seen, but it does suggest that the DAN! autism

treatments may have a contribution to make in the treatment of long-

term Lyme disease as I've suggested that they also do in the

treatment of CFS. Before we can reach such a conclusion, though, I

think it behooves us to get more data on glutathione levels,

selenium levels, and glutathione peroxidase activity in people with

positive tests for long-term Lyme disease, as well as some

experience trying these treatments as part of the treatment of long-

term Lyme disease. I'm not suggesting that they would replace other

treatments for Lyme disease, such as antibiotic therapy, detoxing of

neurotoxins, or other approaches to deal with the bacteria

themselves or to deal with particular characteristics of Lyme

disease that are not found in autism or CFS. Nevertheless, these

treatments might make a significant impact. Time will tell. Thanks

for rattling my cage about this, Sheila, Sue and Nelly.

Rich

> Rich, I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on lyme. When I get

a

> chance perhaps I will go find and post some stuff about how and

what

> it hijacks in the body. Maybe it directly impacts methylation who

> knows. Certainly babesia is known to oxidize red blood cell

glutathione.

[Guest guest]

Wow, Rich. I must have missed this post way back when.

This is fascinating.

Add in babesia (the area where I got bit--babesia is epidemic now and

the chance of one tick carrying both is 10%) which also oxidizes red

blood cell glutathione and you have a recipe for disaster--for the

incredible fatigue that set in within a few weeks of infection that

was so scary I thouht maybe I was just dying.

I had just been meaning to ask why nobody is looking at selenium! And

you mentioned selenium. I have ARG (allegy research group) selenium

solution. Levine basically cured himself of major CFS/MCS by

selenium and other antioxidants. Then he started his company. I don't

take the selenium but probably should.

>

> > Rich, I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on lyme. When I get

> a

> > chance perhaps I will go find and post some stuff about how and

> what

> > it hijacks in the body. Maybe it directly impacts methylation who

> > knows. Certainly babesia is known to oxidize red blood cell

> glutathione.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich and others,

I would love to see a debate of:

-Dr. Amy Yasko vs. Dr. Jill , & /or

-Dr. Amy Yakso vs. Dr. Jon Pangborn

Yasko's approach makes Jame's approach look conservative in comparison. Pangborn

still has his reservations on the true significance of the polymorphisms. I

think genetics are a fascinating area, but their translation should be viewed as

generalizations rather than as certainties. For example one autisic boy of mine

had the yasko SNP's done, Yasko's book said this boy would have elevated

ammonia and needed agressive ammonia support. Testing revealed urine and blood

levels of ammonia were normal. I'm not trying to take away from yasko's work,

just pointing out to all that findings may need to be confirmed by other tests.

I think an ideal situation would be to have all the genetics data + all the

biochem data (e.g. organic acids, amino acids, GSH, SAMe/SAH, ammonia, etc.).

I'm also looking forward to hearing more about Dr. Jill interpretation of

polymorphisms in the future.

Blake

Re: Yasko vs. DAN Docs - Methylation

Hi, Bill.

There is quite a lot in common between the DAN! approaches to the

treatment of autism and Dr. Yasko's approach, but there are also

some differences. I think both would agree that the fundamental

issues in producing autism are SNPs in methylation-cycle-related

enzymes, combined with exposure to various insults, including toxins

and pathogens. Many of the supplements they use are the same,

including the ones you mentioned.

They do differ on some of the science of what various SNPs do to the

biochemistry. They also differ on how much they rely on

characterizing the SNPs vs. operating by experience and trial-and-

error. Dr. Yasko based her treatment on characterizing the SNPs,

and tailors the treatment to them. The DAN! folks operate more by

trial-and-error. Their belief is that not enough is understood

about the SNPs to use this information operationally, and that one

ends up doing trial-and-error either way. I think Dr. Yasko's

approach is inherently more complex, because she tries to take more

things into account to fit the treatment to the individual patient,

but I think she makes a good case for why this is necessary. There

are some very different subsets, depending on the combination of

SNPs, and a treatment that will help one will make another worse.

Dr. Yasko has worked out a lot of things in her own mind, based on a

combination of the published literature and her experience with

autistic kids. Some of this has not been published in the peer-

reviwed literature or tested independently. In this sense, I would

say that she operates somewhat like Dr. Cheney does in CFS. There

are certainly pros and cons about this, and more orthodox scientists

don't approve of this type of approach. It takes much longer to get

things accepted by going the publication route, but the testing is

more rigorous this way, and eventually you have a better chance of

your approach being accepted as standard practice. But that can

take a very long time, and in the meantime, the autistic children

grow older, and it's more difficult to fix their lack of brain

development. I can see both sides of this.

I prefer Dr. Yasko's approach, because at least in concept it

attempts to base treatment on the most basic of root causes, the

genetics. That appeals to me, since I have a physics background,

and that's the approach used in physics--start with the most

elementary particles of matter and apply " first principles. " It's a

powerful approach if you can develop a thorough enough understanding

at this level. It's also a difficult approach to apply when you are

working with a very complex system, with many pieces, because it's

hard to deal with all the interactions in an exact way.

I do think both have more to learn, and I think they are working

hard at trying to learn more.

Rich

>

> i am trying to digest the info at Autism Answer, and it is

difficult

> because there is so much. i am glad that Dr Yasko has done all

this

> work and i am glad that Rich has been so helpful in translating so

much

> of it, but it is overwhleming for my brain right now..

>

> i have a pretty basic question:

>

> where does Dr Yasko fit in terms of tha DAN (Defeat Autism Now)

> theories about Autism and in turn CFS?

>

> is the basic theory still the same: that SNPs in the Methylation

and

> Detox cycles are inhibiting our ability to filter out toxins. and

that

> the main thing we need to do is get the methylation cycle working

again.

>

> if so, are the main treatments still the same in order to get the

> methylation cycle up and running again?

>

> Methyl B-12

> Folinic Acid

> TMG

> Taurine

>

> thanks

> bill

>

[Guest guest]

My Doc has me on Selenium along with many other sups.

Marie

jill1313 wrote:

>

> Wow, Rich. I must have missed this post way back when.

> This is fascinating.

> Add in babesia (the area where I got bit--babesia is epidemic now and

> the chance of one tick carrying both is 10%) which also oxidizes red

> blood cell glutathione and you have a recipe for disaster--for the

> incredible fatigue that set in within a few weeks of infection that

> was so scary I thouht maybe I was just dying.

>

> I had just been meaning to ask why nobody is looking at selenium! And

> you mentioned selenium. I have ARG (allegy research group) selenium

> solution. Levine basically cured himself of major CFS/MCS by

> selenium and other antioxidants. Then he started his company. I don't

> take the selenium but probably should.

>

>

> >

> > > Rich, I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on lyme. When I get

> > a

> > > chance perhaps I will go find and post some stuff about how and

> > what

> > > it hijacks in the body. Maybe it directly impacts methylation who

> > > knows. Certainly babesia is known to oxidize red blood cell

> > glutathione.

> >

>

>