Guest guest Posted July 29, 2006 Report Share Posted July 29, 2006 Hi, Bill. There is quite a lot in common between the DAN! approaches to the treatment of autism and Dr. Yasko's approach, but there are also some differences. I think both would agree that the fundamental issues in producing autism are SNPs in methylation-cycle-related enzymes, combined with exposure to various insults, including toxins and pathogens. Many of the supplements they use are the same, including the ones you mentioned. They do differ on some of the science of what various SNPs do to the biochemistry. They also differ on how much they rely on characterizing the SNPs vs. operating by experience and trial-and- error. Dr. Yasko based her treatment on characterizing the SNPs, and tailors the treatment to them. The DAN! folks operate more by trial-and-error. Their belief is that not enough is understood about the SNPs to use this information operationally, and that one ends up doing trial-and-error either way. I think Dr. Yasko's approach is inherently more complex, because she tries to take more things into account to fit the treatment to the individual patient, but I think she makes a good case for why this is necessary. There are some very different subsets, depending on the combination of SNPs, and a treatment that will help one will make another worse. Dr. Yasko has worked out a lot of things in her own mind, based on a combination of the published literature and her experience with autistic kids. Some of this has not been published in the peer- reviwed literature or tested independently. In this sense, I would say that she operates somewhat like Dr. Cheney does in CFS. There are certainly pros and cons about this, and more orthodox scientists don't approve of this type of approach. It takes much longer to get things accepted by going the publication route, but the testing is more rigorous this way, and eventually you have a better chance of your approach being accepted as standard practice. But that can take a very long time, and in the meantime, the autistic children grow older, and it's more difficult to fix their lack of brain development. I can see both sides of this. I prefer Dr. Yasko's approach, because at least in concept it attempts to base treatment on the most basic of root causes, the genetics. That appeals to me, since I have a physics background, and that's the approach used in physics--start with the most elementary particles of matter and apply " first principles. " It's a powerful approach if you can develop a thorough enough understanding at this level. It's also a difficult approach to apply when you are working with a very complex system, with many pieces, because it's hard to deal with all the interactions in an exact way. I do think both have more to learn, and I think they are working hard at trying to learn more. Rich > > i am trying to digest the info at Autism Answer, and it is difficult > because there is so much. i am glad that Dr Yasko has done all this > work and i am glad that Rich has been so helpful in translating so much > of it, but it is overwhleming for my brain right now.. > > i have a pretty basic question: > > where does Dr Yasko fit in terms of tha DAN (Defeat Autism Now) > theories about Autism and in turn CFS? > > is the basic theory still the same: that SNPs in the Methylation and > Detox cycles are inhibiting our ability to filter out toxins. and that > the main thing we need to do is get the methylation cycle working again. > > if so, are the main treatments still the same in order to get the > methylation cycle up and running again? > > Methyl B-12 > Folinic Acid > TMG > Taurine > > thanks > bill > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2006 Report Share Posted July 29, 2006 rich thanks for the reply. that is very helpful as i sift through the various material on Yasko's site. i think my brain, in its malfuncitioning state, is better able to understand info if i know what the base belief system is - much the same way you talk about physics. knowing that Dr Yasko is not totally in line with DAN! actually makes it easier for me to process the info on her site. i know that the general theory is that CFS and Autism have the same root causes, but when you read info that is really tailored to treating autistic kids it makes it a little more difficult to say: how can i apply this to CFS. it's just another layer that for someone who is not processing info in the most ideal way makes it that much more difficult. it seems that Dr Yakso has a whole other element to her theories seperate from DAN! and that is the RNA stuff. have you gotten into that at all? and do you think that these RNA treatments might also help PWCs? also, is it important to supplement Folinic acid as well as the FolaPro at the same time? do they do different things? thanks bill > > > > i am trying to digest the info at Autism Answer, and it is > difficult > > because there is so much. i am glad that Dr Yasko has done all > this > > work and i am glad that Rich has been so helpful in translating so > much > > of it, but it is overwhleming for my brain right now.. > > > > i have a pretty basic question: > > > > where does Dr Yasko fit in terms of tha DAN (Defeat Autism Now) > > theories about Autism and in turn CFS? > > > > is the basic theory still the same: that SNPs in the Methylation > and > > Detox cycles are inhibiting our ability to filter out toxins. and > that > > the main thing we need to do is get the methylation cycle working > again. > > > > if so, are the main treatments still the same in order to get the > > methylation cycle up and running again? > > > > Methyl B-12 > > Folinic Acid > > TMG > > Taurine > > > > thanks > > bill > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2006 Report Share Posted July 29, 2006 Hi, Bill. > it seems that Dr Yakso has a whole other element to her theories > seperate from DAN! and that is the RNA stuff. have you gotten into > that at all? and do you think that these RNA treatments might also > help PWCs? ***It may be more involved than this, but I think that the general rationale for the RNA treatments in autism (and I think it would apply as well to CFS) is that when there is a block in the methylation cycle, there is also a block in the folate cycle, because they are locked together at the enzyme methionine synthase. A healthy folate metabolism is needed to produce new RNA and DNA, and these are needed to make new cells, which is going on all the time in the body, especially in certain places, such as the lining of the gut, and in the production of various kinds of blood (and immune) cells. Dr. Yasko uses the RNA treatments to support this part of the metabolism until the folate metabolism gets going properly again, I believe. > > also, is it important to supplement Folinic acid as well as the > FolaPro at the same time? do they do different things? ***I think this depends on which SNPs are present. The DAN! people use folinic, but not FolaPro. Dr. Yasko uses both. There is a difference of opinion about whether the reverse MTHFR SNP is relevant or not. Dr. Yasko believes it is. She tests for it, and she treats for it, using FolaPro. Personally, I think she is right about this, but I'm not sure a good case can be made for it from the peer-reviewed literature. The issue is whether the MTHFR reaction really runs backwards under normal physiological conditions in the body, to produce BH4 (tetrahydrobiopterin), or whether all the BH4 is made by another enzyme. Dr. Yasko says that the other enzyme can be blocked by aluminum toxicity, which is especially a problem in females, for some reason, and that if a person has both the reverse MTHFR SNP and aluminum toxicity, they don't make enough BH4, and this leads to problems in making the neurotransmitters, nitric oxide, and running the urea cycle to deal with ammonia. > > > thanks > bill ***Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2006 Report Share Posted July 29, 2006 .. They also differ on how much they rely on characterizing the SNPs vs. operating by experience and trial-and- error. *** A matter of degree.Only maybe is one degree more efficient than the other. .... a treatment that will help one will make another worse. ***True about a lot of the stuff we try here. It might be better than nothing, for those who cannot afford the testing, to risk the DAN! route. Thanks for the question, and thanks for the answer. I am encouraged. Adrienne Dr. Yasko has worked out a lot of things in her own mind, based on a combination of the published literature and her experience with autistic kids. Some of this has not been published in the peer- reviwed literature or tested independently. In this sense, I would say that she operates somewhat like Dr. Cheney does in CFS. There are certainly pros and cons about this, and more orthodox scientists don't approve of this type of approach. It takes much longer to get things accepted by going the publication route, but the testing is more rigorous this way, and eventually you have a better chance of your approach being accepted as standard practice. But that can take a very long time, and in the meantime, the autistic children grow older, and it's more difficult to fix their lack of brain development. I can see both sides of this. I prefer Dr. Yasko's approach, because at least in concept it attempts to base treatment on the most basic of root causes, the genetics. That appeals to me, since I have a physics background, and that's the approach used in physics--start with the most elementary particles of matter and apply " first principles. " It's a powerful approach if you can develop a thorough enough understanding at this level. It's also a difficult approach to apply when you are working with a very complex system, with many pieces, because it's hard to deal with all the interactions in an exact way. I do think both have more to learn, and I think they are working hard at trying to learn more. Rich > > i am trying to digest the info at Autism Answer, and it is difficult > because there is so much. i am glad that Dr Yasko has done all this > work and i am glad that Rich has been so helpful in translating so much > of it, but it is overwhleming for my brain right now.. > > i have a pretty basic question: > > where does Dr Yasko fit in terms of tha DAN (Defeat Autism Now) > theories about Autism and in turn CFS? > > is the basic theory still the same: that SNPs in the Methylation and > Detox cycles are inhibiting our ability to filter out toxins. and that > the main thing we need to do is get the methylation cycle working again. > > if so, are the main treatments still the same in order to get the > methylation cycle up and running again? > > Methyl B-12 > Folinic Acid > TMG > Taurine > > thanks > bill > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 Hi, Blake. > > > > i am trying to digest the info at Autism Answer, and it is > difficult > > because there is so much. i am glad that Dr Yasko has done all > this > > work and i am glad that Rich has been so helpful in translating so > much > > of it, but it is overwhleming for my brain right now.. > > > > i have a pretty basic question: > > > > where does Dr Yasko fit in terms of tha DAN (Defeat Autism Now) > > theories about Autism and in turn CFS? > > > > is the basic theory still the same: that SNPs in the Methylation > and > > Detox cycles are inhibiting our ability to filter out toxins. and > that > > the main thing we need to do is get the methylation cycle working > again. > > > > if so, are the main treatments still the same in order to get the > > methylation cycle up and running again? > > > > Methyl B-12 > > Folinic Acid > > TMG > > Taurine > > > > thanks > > bill > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 Blake, if you wish (and it would be helpful) email me privately in more detail about exactly what questions you'd like answered and how you see these 3 'contradicting' or at least, not lining up with each other. Email me at jenbooks13@.... I assume I'll be talking to all 3. I have already set up an interview with one of them. I probably will overdo it and interview tons more researchers and clinicians than I need to, it's my usual way. That's the only way I can end up synthesizing the info myself, by overkill . I think I'm skipping the organic acids test. I figure if I have ammonia in my urine I'll smell it. Since I have a history of drug sensitivities, I'm more interested inf indng a way to test my p450 enzymes but I don't yet know how I can pull that off being in lovely NY State... > > > > i am trying to digest the info at Autism Answer, and it is > difficult > > because there is so much. i am glad that Dr Yasko has done all > this > > work and i am glad that Rich has been so helpful in translating so > much > > of it, but it is overwhleming for my brain right now.. > > > > i have a pretty basic question: > > > > where does Dr Yasko fit in terms of tha DAN (Defeat Autism Now) > > theories about Autism and in turn CFS? > > > > is the basic theory still the same: that SNPs in the Methylation > and > > Detox cycles are inhibiting our ability to filter out toxins. and > that > > the main thing we need to do is get the methylation cycle working > again. > > > > if so, are the main treatments still the same in order to get the > > methylation cycle up and running again? > > > > Methyl B-12 > > Folinic Acid > > TMG > > Taurine > > > > thanks > > bill > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 One big shock to me was yesterday, Jill , in her small study of the autistic kids, where methyl b12, betaine, and folinic acid fixed their methylation cycles...said the MTHFR gene had NOT shown up significant, while COMT whatever had...(I took notes...scribbles...) I have to view a lot more to see where the contradictions are. My impression from her on DVD was that she was a very kind woman...and methodical...not one to make big claims...but to go slowly and carefully, and that she really cares about the kids, and helping. > > > > > > i am trying to digest the info at Autism Answer, and it is > > difficult > > > because there is so much. i am glad that Dr Yasko has done all > > this > > > work and i am glad that Rich has been so helpful in > translating so > > much > > > of it, but it is overwhleming for my brain right now.. > > > > > > i have a pretty basic question: > > > > > > where does Dr Yasko fit in terms of tha DAN (Defeat Autism > Now) > > > theories about Autism and in turn CFS? > > > > > > is the basic theory still the same: that SNPs in the > Methylation > > and > > > Detox cycles are inhibiting our ability to filter out toxins. > and > > that > > > the main thing we need to do is get the methylation cycle > working > > again. > > > > > > if so, are the main treatments still the same in order to get > the > > > methylation cycle up and running again? > > > > > > Methyl B-12 > > > Folinic Acid > > > TMG > > > Taurine > > > > > > thanks > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 Jill Selenium was one of the first thhings my rheumatologist prescribed in 1998. Very helpful stuff. mjh " The Basil Book " _http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/_ (http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/) I had just been meaning to ask why nobody is looking at selenium! And you mentioned selenium. I have ARG (allegy research group) selenium solution. Levine basically cured himself of major CFS/MCS by selenium and other antioxidants. Then he started his company. I don't take the selenium but probably should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 Hi, Jill. I think that's an accurate impression of Jill . I'm looking forward to her next study being published. I think an important point is that there are several different combinations of SNPs that can cause a person to be vulnerable to developing autism or CFS. Rich > > One big shock to me was yesterday, Jill , in her small study of > the autistic kids, where methyl b12, betaine, and folinic acid fixed > their methylation cycles...said the MTHFR gene had NOT shown up > significant, while COMT whatever had...(I took notes...scribbles...) > > I have to view a lot more to see where the contradictions are. > > My impression from her on DVD was that she was a very kind woman...and > methodical...not one to make big claims...but to go slowly and > carefully, and that she really cares about the kids, and helping. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 Yes. Its interesting Yasko responded to your interpretation...I would think she is aware of you by now . I now have in front of me, a ton of DVD's by Yasko...yegads...I'd better get to the t.v. and pull my laptop into my bedroom. It's going to be 101 degrees here in NY tomorrow and the next day, so...good days to stay inside in the a/c and watch these DVDs, assuming we don't have a power blackout. I don't think it would hurt to try and get rid of the infections at the same time, with antimicrobials if possible, natural or synthetic depending on what you can tolerate. If hyperbaric is available, it can be a tremendous boon, detoxifying, correcting many downstream pathologies esp. hypoxia in all tissues, suppressing bugs, AND helping fix mitochondrial dysfunction imo. And naturopathic cleansing techniques, rather than binding up with something like cholestyramine. I know of two people who, just taking salt/c and doing major naturopathic cleansing ove rthe course of a year, are now well, from majorly sick with lyme... Seems to me if you can cleanse a ton of biotoxins, and suppress/kill bad bugs...you might return to normal that way...but add in this CFS/autism methylation approach, and you might really have a nice trifecta . Rich, I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on lyme. When I get a chance perhaps I will go find and post some stuff about how and what it hijacks in the body. Maybe it directly impacts methylation who knows. Certainly babesia is known to oxidize red blood cell glutathione. > > > > One big shock to me was yesterday, Jill , in her small study > of > > the autistic kids, where methyl b12, betaine, and folinic acid > fixed > > their methylation cycles...said the MTHFR gene had NOT shown up > > significant, while COMT whatever had...(I took > notes...scribbles...) > > > > I have to view a lot more to see where the contradictions are. > > > > My impression from her on DVD was that she was a very kind > woman...and > > methodical...not one to make big claims...but to go slowly and > > carefully, and that she really cares about the kids, and helping. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 Hi, Jill. Here's a repost of what I wrote about Lyme back in January: Hi, Nelly, Sue, Sheila and the group. Thanks very much for posting this. It has really stimulated my thinking about why Lyme disease is symptomatologically so similar to CFS. First, some review. As we all know, it has been terribly difficult to do the differential diagnosis between Lyme disease and CFS. The symptoms overlap considerably, and even the best of the lab tests do not have the sensitivity and selectivity we would all like to see. Symptoms are manifestations of the pathophysiology of a disease, i.e. how the functioning of the body of the sick person is abnormal as a result of the disease. Therefore, if we see that the symptoms of two diseases are very similar, we should suspect that they must have some aspects of pathophysiology in common. Pathophysiology is intimately involved with abnnormal gene expression in the cells of the sick person, because gene expression is a reflection of how the cell is conducting its business, and the misconduct of the business of the cell is pathophysiology. Because of this, I was quite struck some time ago when Sheila reported that Dr. Gow said in a recent talk that he had found that the gene expression pattern in peripheral blood mononuclear cells (monocytes and lymphocytes) is " identical " in CFS and Lyme disease. This implies that the pathophysiology of these two disorders in these cell types is the same. (Note that we can't say anything about what's going on in other cell types in the body in these two disorders from this work. There are no doubt different things that happen in other cell types between Lyme and CFS, and so this is not saying that the two are identical in every way. But in these mononuclear cells, this is saying that the pathophysiology of the two is the same.) As you know, I am of the firm view that in at least a large subset of CFS there is glutathione depletion. In another subset, it looks as though there are genetic variations in the enzymes that make use of glutathione (glutathione transferases and glutathione peroxidases), and the results in terms of pathophysiology are much the same, even though the first group has low glutathione, and the second group may have elevated glutathione. In either subset, the people do not have normal glutathione function. As you also know, based on the work by the DAN! project in autism, I now believe that the basic abnormalities in the biochemistry in autism and CFS are the same or similar. The glutathione depletion brings down the methylation cycle, and a vicious circle develops that produces a host of problems because of the depletion of SAMe (the main methylator in the body), cysteine, glutathione, taurine and sulfate. So, if the pathophysiology of CFS involves the inability to use glutathione effectively, whether because glutathione itself is depleted or because the enzymes that use it have below-normal activity, and if the pathophysiology of CFS and Lyme are indeed identical, then it follows that there must be a problem with the glutathione system in Lyme disease as well. With that introduction, let me now review some things I found in the literature, including the paper to which you (Nelly) drew my attention. I will give the PubMed ID numbers for the references that support these statements. (PMID 1477785) First, in in vitro experiments it has been found that the growth of Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb), the bacterium that causes Lyme disease, is decreased by 80% if cysteine is not present in the culture medium. (PMID 147785) It has been found that cysteine diffuses passively into Bb, i.e. there is no active transporter protein that pumps it into the bacterium. (PMID 1477785) It has been found that Bb incorporates cysteine in three of its proteins. One has a mass of 22 kilodaltons. The others have been identified as outer surface protein A (Osp A), with a mass of 30 kilodaltons, and outer surface protein B (Osp , with a mass of 34 kilodaltons. (PMID 1639493) Bb produces a water-soluble hemolysin. This is a substance that is able to break down red blood cells and release their hemoglobin. It is likely that this substance incorporates a cysteine residue, and this cysteine must be in its reduced state in order for the hemolysin to break down red blood cells. (PMID 16390443) Bb does not produce glutathione, which is the principal non-protein thiol (substance containing an S-H or sulfhydryl group) in human cells. Instead, Bb cells have a high concentration (about 1 millimolar) of reduced coenzyme A (CoASH). Bb also produces a CoA disulfide reductase enzyme that has the responsibility to keep CoASH in its chemically reduced form, so it can function. This enzyme is in turn reduced by NADH (reduced nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide), which is reduced by metabolism of Bb's fuel. (This is analogous to glutathione reductase in human cells, which requires NADPH, which in turn is reduced by the pentose phosphate shunt on glycolysis, which metabolizes glucose as fuel.) In Bb, CoASH is able to reduce hydrogen peroxide, as glutathione peroxidase, together with glutathione, do in human cells. (PMID 11687735) It has been found that when people were infected with Bb and had the characteristic erythema migrans (bulls-eye rash), the total thiol and glutathione in blood analysis were found to be significantly decreased. The activity of glutathione peroxidase was also significantly decreased. Malondialdehyde, a marker for lipid peroxidation, was significantly elevated. After antibiotic treatment with amoxycillin, which eliminated the acute symptoms of Lyme disease, both the total thiol and the glutathione levels recovered to normal. However, the glutathione peroxidase activity was still significantly below normal, and the malondialdehyde remained significantly elevated. This suggested that Bb lowers the thiol and glutathione levels in its host, and inhibits the activity of glutathione peroxidase. I think this also suggests that while antibiotic therapy eliminates acute Lyme symptoms and brings recovery of glutathione levels, the Bb infection may still be suppressing the activity of glutathione peroxidase, and this may be a mechanism involved in long-term (or chronic or post-) Lyme disease. One way in which a pathogen can inhibit its host's glutathione peroxidase activity is to hoard selenium, because this is a cofactor for that enzyme. You may recall that that is the mechanism that Prof. Harry has hypothesized for HIV and AIDS (http://www.hdfoster.com). I could not find any reference in the literature connecting Bb and selenium, and I don't know whether anyone has looked at that. Have any of you who are positive for Lyme had your selenium level measured? It seems pretty clear that Bb uses cysteine and that it depletes glutathione and total thiol (which includes cysteine and protein thiols as well as glutathione) in its host, at least in the acute phase. It also suppresses the activity of glutathione peroxidase, but I'm not sure whether it does it by lowering the host's selenium level, or by some other means. This suppression appears as though it could be chronic. I think there is a good chance that this lowering of glutathione and/or suppressing of the activity of glutathione peroxidase could very well be the explanation for the similarities in symptomatology and the " identical " gene expression in the peripheral blood mononuclear cells in CFS and Lyme disease. It may also be that a host whose glutathione has been depleted by other factors may be more vulnerable to developing Lyme disease, once inoculated with Bb. I am speculating a little here, but this is exciting! If this is true, what are the consequences for treatment of long- term Lyme disease, the subject that Sue raised? I think this remains to be seen, but it does suggest that the DAN! autism treatments may have a contribution to make in the treatment of long- term Lyme disease as I've suggested that they also do in the treatment of CFS. Before we can reach such a conclusion, though, I think it behooves us to get more data on glutathione levels, selenium levels, and glutathione peroxidase activity in people with positive tests for long-term Lyme disease, as well as some experience trying these treatments as part of the treatment of long- term Lyme disease. I'm not suggesting that they would replace other treatments for Lyme disease, such as antibiotic therapy, detoxing of neurotoxins, or other approaches to deal with the bacteria themselves or to deal with particular characteristics of Lyme disease that are not found in autism or CFS. Nevertheless, these treatments might make a significant impact. Time will tell. Thanks for rattling my cage about this, Sheila, Sue and Nelly. Rich > Rich, I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on lyme. When I get a > chance perhaps I will go find and post some stuff about how and what > it hijacks in the body. Maybe it directly impacts methylation who > knows. Certainly babesia is known to oxidize red blood cell glutathione. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 Wow, Rich. I must have missed this post way back when. This is fascinating. Add in babesia (the area where I got bit--babesia is epidemic now and the chance of one tick carrying both is 10%) which also oxidizes red blood cell glutathione and you have a recipe for disaster--for the incredible fatigue that set in within a few weeks of infection that was so scary I thouht maybe I was just dying. I had just been meaning to ask why nobody is looking at selenium! And you mentioned selenium. I have ARG (allegy research group) selenium solution. Levine basically cured himself of major CFS/MCS by selenium and other antioxidants. Then he started his company. I don't take the selenium but probably should. > > > Rich, I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on lyme. When I get > a > > chance perhaps I will go find and post some stuff about how and > what > > it hijacks in the body. Maybe it directly impacts methylation who > > knows. Certainly babesia is known to oxidize red blood cell > glutathione. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2006 Report Share Posted July 31, 2006 Hi Rich and others, I would love to see a debate of: -Dr. Amy Yasko vs. Dr. Jill , & /or -Dr. Amy Yakso vs. Dr. Jon Pangborn Yasko's approach makes Jame's approach look conservative in comparison. Pangborn still has his reservations on the true significance of the polymorphisms. I think genetics are a fascinating area, but their translation should be viewed as generalizations rather than as certainties. For example one autisic boy of mine had the yasko SNP's done, Yasko's book said this boy would have elevated ammonia and needed agressive ammonia support. Testing revealed urine and blood levels of ammonia were normal. I'm not trying to take away from yasko's work, just pointing out to all that findings may need to be confirmed by other tests. I think an ideal situation would be to have all the genetics data + all the biochem data (e.g. organic acids, amino acids, GSH, SAMe/SAH, ammonia, etc.). I'm also looking forward to hearing more about Dr. Jill interpretation of polymorphisms in the future. Blake Re: Yasko vs. DAN Docs - Methylation Hi, Bill. There is quite a lot in common between the DAN! approaches to the treatment of autism and Dr. Yasko's approach, but there are also some differences. I think both would agree that the fundamental issues in producing autism are SNPs in methylation-cycle-related enzymes, combined with exposure to various insults, including toxins and pathogens. Many of the supplements they use are the same, including the ones you mentioned. They do differ on some of the science of what various SNPs do to the biochemistry. They also differ on how much they rely on characterizing the SNPs vs. operating by experience and trial-and- error. Dr. Yasko based her treatment on characterizing the SNPs, and tailors the treatment to them. The DAN! folks operate more by trial-and-error. Their belief is that not enough is understood about the SNPs to use this information operationally, and that one ends up doing trial-and-error either way. I think Dr. Yasko's approach is inherently more complex, because she tries to take more things into account to fit the treatment to the individual patient, but I think she makes a good case for why this is necessary. There are some very different subsets, depending on the combination of SNPs, and a treatment that will help one will make another worse. Dr. Yasko has worked out a lot of things in her own mind, based on a combination of the published literature and her experience with autistic kids. Some of this has not been published in the peer- reviwed literature or tested independently. In this sense, I would say that she operates somewhat like Dr. Cheney does in CFS. There are certainly pros and cons about this, and more orthodox scientists don't approve of this type of approach. It takes much longer to get things accepted by going the publication route, but the testing is more rigorous this way, and eventually you have a better chance of your approach being accepted as standard practice. But that can take a very long time, and in the meantime, the autistic children grow older, and it's more difficult to fix their lack of brain development. I can see both sides of this. I prefer Dr. Yasko's approach, because at least in concept it attempts to base treatment on the most basic of root causes, the genetics. That appeals to me, since I have a physics background, and that's the approach used in physics--start with the most elementary particles of matter and apply " first principles. " It's a powerful approach if you can develop a thorough enough understanding at this level. It's also a difficult approach to apply when you are working with a very complex system, with many pieces, because it's hard to deal with all the interactions in an exact way. I do think both have more to learn, and I think they are working hard at trying to learn more. Rich > > i am trying to digest the info at Autism Answer, and it is difficult > because there is so much. i am glad that Dr Yasko has done all this > work and i am glad that Rich has been so helpful in translating so much > of it, but it is overwhleming for my brain right now.. > > i have a pretty basic question: > > where does Dr Yasko fit in terms of tha DAN (Defeat Autism Now) > theories about Autism and in turn CFS? > > is the basic theory still the same: that SNPs in the Methylation and > Detox cycles are inhibiting our ability to filter out toxins. and that > the main thing we need to do is get the methylation cycle working again. > > if so, are the main treatments still the same in order to get the > methylation cycle up and running again? > > Methyl B-12 > Folinic Acid > TMG > Taurine > > thanks > bill > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2006 Report Share Posted August 1, 2006 My Doc has me on Selenium along with many other sups. Marie jill1313 wrote: > > Wow, Rich. I must have missed this post way back when. > This is fascinating. > Add in babesia (the area where I got bit--babesia is epidemic now and > the chance of one tick carrying both is 10%) which also oxidizes red > blood cell glutathione and you have a recipe for disaster--for the > incredible fatigue that set in within a few weeks of infection that > was so scary I thouht maybe I was just dying. > > I had just been meaning to ask why nobody is looking at selenium! And > you mentioned selenium. I have ARG (allegy research group) selenium > solution. Levine basically cured himself of major CFS/MCS by > selenium and other antioxidants. Then he started his company. I don't > take the selenium but probably should. > > > > > > > Rich, I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on lyme. When I get > > a > > > chance perhaps I will go find and post some stuff about how and > > what > > > it hijacks in the body. Maybe it directly impacts methylation who > > > knows. Certainly babesia is known to oxidize red blood cell > > glutathione. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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