Re: Dr. Yasko...CFS, Autism -- Genetic?

July 21, 2006

Sara,

That is interesting!!! Where in Yaskos's website do you get this information?

July 21, 2006

So is she saying both autism and cfs are genetic? I would suspect there are

some parents

of autistic children who would disagree (as they didn't become autistic until

after being

vaccinated, etc..)...

Also, there was a great study published about how food can change one's genes --

I'll find

it and post it seperately...

thanks,

Dan

> > Hi Dan,

> > I paid for the Nutrigenomic testing on my credit card & now am trying to

> > find out how much this program will cost me.

> > But I have already paid too much to not go through with this.

> > I am sure, in time I will know exactly what the supplements I need are going

> > to cost. But I know it will be much more than I can afford living on just my

> > SSI disability. I am just going to have to go in debt to rebuild my health &

> > it seems like this is the only way to do that.

> > There is a lot of individual needs & fluctuating amounts of supplements

> > for each protocol & plus the cost & choice of testing. So there is some

> > flexibility. I think Payne (804) 523-7801 posted here once about

supplying

> > the RNA at $80 a bottle & also carries the BH4 which is hard to find.

> > You also need to do an incredible amount of studying & homework to learn her

> > theories & apply the protocols. She does not have much time to help or give

a

> > lot of personal info. But she does answer some e-mails & some other Patients

> > of Autistic children on her website Austismanswer.com offer help &

> > suggestions. Most of the info she has is on DVD's & in her books & on her

website.

You

> > need to buy these also, or borrow some, though with the testing she gives

you a

> > book & 2 DVD's.

> > I am a bit afraid to find out exactly how much this will all cost. I am sure

> > over time I can find less expensive sources for a lot of the supplements. &

I

> > am hoping the cost of the program will go down & be made a little easier.

> > Hope this info helps.

> > C J

> >

July 21, 2006

Hi, Dan.

Autism and CFS appear to be caused by a combination of genetic

predisposition plus circumstances that occur in the person's life.

Both are necessary. In autism, these circumstances in many cases

appear to be the vaccinations that contained thimerosol (a mercury-

based preservative) or live viruses. In CFS, there a a range of

possible circumstances involved, including physical, chemical,

biological and psychological/emotional factors, and the combination

varies from one case to another.

Rich

> > > Hi Dan,

> > > I paid for the Nutrigenomic testing on my credit card & now am

trying to

> > > find out how much this program will cost me.

> > > But I have already paid too much to not go through with this.

> > > I am sure, in time I will know exactly what the supplements I

need are going

> > > to cost. But I know it will be much more than I can afford

living on just my

> > > SSI disability. I am just going to have to go in debt to

rebuild my health &

> > > it seems like this is the only way to do that.

> > > There is a lot of individual needs & fluctuating amounts of

supplements

> > > for each protocol & plus the cost & choice of testing. So

there is some

> > > flexibility. I think Payne (804) 523-7801 posted here

once about supplying

> > > the RNA at $80 a bottle & also carries the BH4 which is hard

to find.

> > > You also need to do an incredible amount of studying &

homework to learn her

> > > theories & apply the protocols. She does not have much time to

help or give a

> > > lot of personal info. But she does answer some e-mails & some

other Patients

> > > of Autistic children on her website Austismanswer.com offer

help &

> > > suggestions. Most of the info she has is on DVD's & in her

books & on her website.

> You

> > > need to buy these also, or borrow some, though with the

testing she gives you a

> > > book & 2 DVD's.

> > > I am a bit afraid to find out exactly how much this will all

cost. I am sure

> > > over time I can find less expensive sources for a lot of the

supplements. & I

> > > am hoping the cost of the program will go down & be made a

little easier.

> > > Hope this info helps.

> > > C J

> > >

July 21, 2006

On Jul 21, 2006, at 9:40 AM, kdrbrill wrote:

> So is she saying both autism and cfs are genetic? I would suspect

> there are some parents

> of autistic children who would disagree (as they didn't become

> autistic until after being

> vaccinated, etc..)...

Sigh. I keep having this conversation with my best friend, too. In

logic, this is considered a " post hoc, ergo propter hoc " (after

which, therefore because of which) fallacy.

Most of us can take the mercury and other immune loading of

immunizations just fine -- just as we can (more or less, and up to a

limit) handle the other " normal " mercury loads from airborne metals,

dental work, tuna, and so on. Our genes produce the enzymes that

allow us to process all this stuff normally, and clear it from our

systems in reasonable amounts of time.

People with a specific set genetic SNPs may not make those enzymes.

So, rather than get cleared out, heavy metals and other toxins build

up in the tissues, settle in to the brain and kidneys (and

elsewhere), and hang around for years. That, according to Yasko's

theory, is what brings on autism. (And Rich takes the thesis one step

further, and suspects the same faulty gene set is causing CFS in

adults as well.)

It's not that the vaccinations *cause* the disease. It's just that

they're the precipitating factor in kids whose genes can't detox the

load.

Sara

July 21, 2006

>>>>Autism and CFS appear to be caused by a combination of genetic

predisposition plus circumstances that occur in the person's life.

Both are necessary.<<<<

Rich, according to who, exactly? That certainly is an authoritative, definitive

sounding statement!

Especially after 20 years of Scientists around the world trying to solve the

complexities of CFS.

I'm kinda confused...As far as I know, you've only been studying Autism, Amy

Yasco, genetics for a very short time. In that short period do you mean you, Amy

Yasco, or she and you have finally cracked the mystery that no one else could?

ANd that it's " faulty genes " ?

Somehow, I don't see how healthy 10s of thousands of people in the Prime of

Life, and children, could be downed for life... overnight... by faulty genes !

>>>>>In CFS, there is a range of possible circumstances involved, including

physical, chemical, biological and psychological/emotional factors, and the

combination

> varies from one case to another.<<<<<

Hmmm

This sounds like

A) Part " Biopsychosocial " model of CFS, which we first heard about from UK

shrinks....with the theory that it is actually the emotional/mental that

triggers and/or keeps the illness going

Could describe any disorder

C) What ever happened to overnight, viral onset?

D) If it is thermasol mercury or viruses in Autism, why is

it a combination physical w/ emotional for CFS?

E) This theory can sweep away overnight those pesky lawsuits and investigations

into thermosol, pesticides, mercury emissions, toxic water supply, Air

pollution, chemicals leaching into soil! Not to mention, any emerging pathogen

theories.

Does this mean you have discovered the marker(s) specific for CFS?

For Rich, Dan, Adrienne and Janet...

*I don't believe anyone can say these are fixed genes we are born with. Many

things are believed to be altering genes these days. (Think purposely

genetically altered food and bugs, with " bugs " ).

A major " purpose " of Human Genome project is to ...alter genes.

*Rich, you say genes are fixed, except for " occasional mutations " . things may

have changed considerably since that was true. The entire plant and animal world

is mutating...3 legs, multiple eyes, reproductive changes in frogs. The one I

just read in the UK is male fish that are morphing into female. It could change

the whole fish species in the UK in a year...

Humans also..low sperm counts, in males, earlier and earlier menstruation in

girls...

{When I first got ME/CFS, a Naturopath told me " You are failing to mutate

properly! " (to TOXIC world). I thought, hmmm, that makes the

" healthies " ..MUTANTS!}

anyway,

*Some of the earliest CFS Research said our DNA has been altered by the

disease...wouldn't that alter genes?

* Genetics are extremely complicated and the field is very new, with many murky

areas so far...even for Geneticists.

* There is alot of jumping the gun on genetics, genetic experimentations, and

conclusions...some would say far too quickly.

* With all of the environmental changes, pathogens, and genetic alterations we

know are happening, how can anyone conclude these things?

* Have list members read very much else on genetics in general?

I'm very interested in any Autism connection with CFS, in genetics, in genetics

as connected to CFS, and in mine specifically. If ever I could afford testing,

perhaps I would get it.

This is a big question for many people right now, with many diseases, or with

none, about considering the implications of genetic testing (on record).

It seems to be mighty fast acting/concluding going on here! Perhaps everyone has

studied genetics, implications of testing and clearly decided, but I haven't

heard alot of the questions I would expect first. (that the rest of the world is

doing).

Other comments/questions...Rich, what definition of CFS are you using? Do all

here that you are studying/advising fit that criteria?

You recently said you are studying Fukuda def., which by the way, in case no one

noticed, has morphed before our very eyes into something " else " ...CFS and

" CFS-LIKE " , whatever that means. general " Fatiguing illnesses " , apparently.

Are you using the recent 14 " stress gene " " allopathic load " papers from the CDC?

Those were not based on " original CFS " , (now Commonly called ME/CFS) or even

Fukuda.

Dr. Enlander and Kerr do not find them significant, and believe gene expression

is far more significant.

Where does gene expression fit into your/Yasko's thinking?

Are you opposing the thinking of CFS Scientists so far, or does your theory

encompass any of theirs?

Originally " CFS " described an epidemic disease that hit the US in the 80s,

literally overnight for many, usually in a viral form. Most closely fitting the

description of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis, around for many decades.

Is this (Neurological) disease still being discussed on this list, or in any of

your theories? Has it become only a subset of the list, theories as opposed to

the main topic over the years?

Do patients following this (Rich's) theory accept that your disease's onset

included psychological/emotional

causes?

What should those on the edge of organ failure be doing in the short term?

Don't anyone start screaming at me. I'm sure Rich can handle these questions as

they will be asked world wide to anyone announcing the probable " cause {and

treatment} of CFS. "

And I can't study Amy Yasco, purchase her tapes and books, and get genovations

testing to ask these questions...!

Thank you,

Katrina

> > > > Hi Dan,

> > > > I paid for the Nutrigenomic testing on my credit card & now am

> trying to

> > > > find out how much this program will cost me.

> > > > But I have already paid too much to not go through with this.

> > > > I am sure, in time I will know exactly what the supplements I

> need are going

> > > > to cost. But I know it will be much more than I can afford

> living on just my

> > > > SSI disability. I am just going to have to go in debt to

> rebuild my health &

> > > > it seems like this is the only way to do that.

> > > > There is a lot of individual needs & fluctuating amounts of

> supplements

> > > > for each protocol & plus the cost & choice of testing. So

> there is some

> > > > flexibility. I think Payne (804) 523-7801 posted here

> once about supplying

> > > > the RNA at $80 a bottle & also carries the BH4 which is hard

> to find.

> > > > You also need to do an incredible amount of studying &

> homework to learn her

> > > > theories & apply the protocols. She does not have much time to

> help or give a

> > > > lot of personal info. But she does answer some e-mails & some

> other Patients

> > > > of Autistic children on her website Austismanswer.com offer

> help &

> > > > suggestions. Most of the info she has is on DVD's & in her

> books & on her website.

> > You

> > > > need to buy these also, or borrow some, though with the

> testing she gives you a

> > > > book & 2 DVD's.

> > > > I am a bit afraid to find out exactly how much this will all

> cost. I am sure

> > > > over time I can find less expensive sources for a lot of the

> supplements. & I

> > > > am hoping the cost of the program will go down & be made a

> little easier.

> > > > Hope this info helps.

> > > > C J

> > > >

July 21, 2006

Thanks for all the input from so many. I tend to agree with Kattemayo that

certain things

(perhaps unknown, perhaps known) cause alteration in genes (see the study on

Food and

Genes posted earlier today), and that, along with a combination of other

influences, causes

this #@$***! illness.

I for one, had a very gradual onset. That's why I think I didn't take it

seriously, until it was

too late. Well, hopefully not TOO late!

In defense of Rich, I believe Dr. Yasko is the one making the genetic claims,

even

regarding CFS (she has a CFS link on her site).

Would still like to hear from more patients of hers who are doing better using

her

protocol...

d.

> > > > > Hi Dan,

> > > > > I paid for the Nutrigenomic testing on my credit card & now am

> > trying to

> > > > > find out how much this program will cost me.

> > > > > But I have already paid too much to not go through with this.

> > > > > I am sure, in time I will know exactly what the supplements I

> > need are going

> > > > > to cost. But I know it will be much more than I can afford

> > living on just my

> > > > > SSI disability. I am just going to have to go in debt to

> > rebuild my health &

> > > > > it seems like this is the only way to do that.

> > > > > There is a lot of individual needs & fluctuating amounts of

> > supplements

> > > > > for each protocol & plus the cost & choice of testing. So

> > there is some

> > > > > flexibility. I think Payne (804) 523-7801 posted here

> > once about supplying

> > > > > the RNA at $80 a bottle & also carries the BH4 which is hard

> > to find.

> > > > > You also need to do an incredible amount of studying &

> > homework to learn her

> > > > > theories & apply the protocols. She does not have much time to

> > help or give a

> > > > > lot of personal info. But she does answer some e-mails & some

> > other Patients

> > > > > of Autistic children on her website Austismanswer.com offer

> > help &

> > > > > suggestions. Most of the info she has is on DVD's & in her

> > books & on her website.

> > > You

> > > > > need to buy these also, or borrow some, though with the

> > testing she gives you a

> > > > > book & 2 DVD's.

> > > > > I am a bit afraid to find out exactly how much this will all

> > cost. I am sure

> > > > > over time I can find less expensive sources for a lot of the

> > supplements. & I

> > > > > am hoping the cost of the program will go down & be made a

> > little easier.

> > > > > Hope this info helps.

> > > > > C J

> > > > >

July 21, 2006

Hi, Katrina.

***So, it sounds as though I really rattled your cage with that one,

eh? (:-)

>

> >>>>Autism and CFS appear to be caused by a combination of genetic

predisposition plus circumstances that occur in the person's life.

> Both are necessary.<<<<

>

> Rich, according to who, exactly? That certainly is an

authoritative, definitive sounding statement!

> Especially after 20 years of Scientists around the world trying to

solve the complexities of CFS.

***Well, according to me! Who else! (:-) I think Amy Yasko would

agree, however, and she was way ahead of me. And I would venture to

say that we are currently witnessing the beginnings of a scientific

revolution in the understanding of CFS. How's that for an

understatement? (:-)

***On what basis do I make these wild claims? Well, first of all,

they explain the observations. On the genetic side, there is growing

evidence for a genetic predisposition in CFS. This includes the

twin studies, the familial occurrence of CFS, the published

polymorphism studies, and the individual polymorphism test results

of people on this list. Also, there has to be an explanation for

why some people get CFS while most don't, even though they

experience similar things in their lives. Genetic predisposition

can explain that. So genes definitely play a role. Actually genes

play a role in nearly every disorder, because they have a lot to do

with determining the response of the organism, so it's pretty much a

foregone conclusion that genes are involved. The only question is,

how strongly, and we are getting more evidence now that the

contribution is significant.

***Now, how about the life circumstances part? Well, there are lots

of published studies on this, and I cited them in my 2004 poster

paper. And the experience of many on this list is that they can

point to things that happened to them just prior to the onset of

CFS, and in many cases these were very stressful things or

combinations of things. So I think this explains that part of it,

too. The combination of genes and stressors also takes care of the

argument that everyone experiences stressors, but not everyone gets

CFS. That's why I say that both are necessary.

>

> I'm kinda confused...As far as I know, you've only been studying

Autism, Amy Yasco, genetics for a very short time. In that short

period do you mean you, Amy Yasco, or she and you have finally

cracked the mystery that no one else could?

> ANd that it's " faulty genes " ?

***Well, you know, that kind of thing does happen in science.

Nobody can figure something out for a long time, and then, one day,

somebody does. Doesn't happen every day, but it does happen.

***It's not just genes. It's a combination of genes plus

circumstances.

>

> Somehow, I don't see how healthy 10s of thousands of people in

the Prime of Life, and children, could be downed for life...

overnight... by faulty genes !

***As I say, it's a combination of genetic predisposition and things

that happen in a person's life. Those things can be extreme

physical stress or physical trauma, chemical toxins, exposure to

infections, a load of long-term emotional stress, or some

combination of things of that sort. The combination of stressors is

different in each case.

>

> >>>>>In CFS, there is a range of possible circumstances involved,

including physical, chemical, biological and psychological/emotional

factors, and the combination

> > varies from one case to another.<<<<<

>

> Hmmm

>

> This sounds like

>

> A) Part " Biopsychosocial " model of CFS, which we first heard about

from UK shrinks....with the theory that it is actually the

emotional/mental that triggers and/or keeps the illness going

***The important thing to realize is that emotional stress gets

translated into biochemical and physiological changes in the body by

the stress response system. I'm referring to secretion of cortisol,

epinephrine and norepinephrine. This is not the biopsychosocial

model. It's not the " all in your head " model.

>

> Could describe any disorder

***In fact, I would say that when put under a high enough load of

stressors for a long enough time, any human being will crack. How

they crack will depend on their genetic makeup. A fraction of the

population will develop CFS. Another fraction will develop heart

disease. Another will get cancer. Another will lose their minds,

etc. So in that sense, this model does describe a number of

disorders. But the key thing is that both the genetics and the

stressors are important in determining whether a person will get CFS.

>

> C) What ever happened to overnight, viral onset?

***I believe that in many of these cases there was a history of

stressors behind the scenes that raised cortisol for an extended

period, and lowered glutathione, leading up to the viral onset.

These stressors set the person up to have a suppressed cell-mediated

immunity by raising cortisol for a long time, and depleting

glutathione. The low glutathione is also what permitted the

reactivation of a latent virus that was already in the person's body

in most cases.

>

> D) If it is thermasol mercury or viruses in Autism, why is

> it a combination physical w/ emotional for CFS?

***It's a matter of what happened first in the person's life that

was severe enough in terms of glutathione depletion to trigger the

vicious circle mechanism that was made possible by the genetic

makeup. In the case of the autistic kids, they were hit with enough

mercury and live viruses to deplete their glutathione enough before

age 3 to plunge them into the vicious circle. In the case of the

people with CFS, the vaccination schedule when they were children

was not heavy enough to trigger the vicious circle mechanism in

them, even though they had the genetic makeup. It was only when

they became older that a large enough stressor load was experienced

to trigger their onset. But the vaccination schedule kept growing,

and more and more people were triggered at an early age.

> E) This theory can sweep away overnight those pesky lawsuits and

investigations into thermosol, pesticides, mercury emissions, toxic

water supply, Air pollution, chemicals leaching into soil! Not to

mention, any emerging pathogen theories.

***I don't have an opinion about any lawsuits.

>

> Does this mean you have discovered the marker(s) specific for CFS?

>

***If you mean a diagnostic test, I think we are close to that.

It's a little messy, because there are different combinations of

genetic variations that produce CFS symptoms when the person is

pushed into the vicious circle, and they produce different subsets.

We have known for a long time that there are different subsets, and

it looks as though the different combinations of genetic variations

can account for them.

>

> For Rich, Dan, Adrienne and Janet...

>

> *I don't believe anyone can say these are fixed genes we are born

with. Many things are believed to be altering genes these days.

(Think purposely genetically altered food and bugs, with " bugs " ).

> A major " purpose " of Human Genome project is to ...alter genes.

***I'm not saying that it's impossible to alter genes when producing

new varieties of plants or animals. What I'm saying is that the

genes in a living human being are going to stay the same throughout

their life, except for occasional mutations, some of which can cause

cancer.

>

> *Rich, you say genes are fixed, except for " occasional mutations " .

things may have changed considerably since that was true. The entire

plant and animal world is mutating...3 legs, multiple eyes,

reproductive changes in frogs. The one I just read in the UK is male

fish that are morphing into female. It could change the whole fish

species in the UK in a year...

***See my answer above.

> Humans also..low sperm counts, in males, earlier and earlier

menstruation in girls...

***These are not due to changes in the genes. They are epigenetic

effects, apparently due to exposure to environmental estrogen-like

compounds.

>

> {When I first got ME/CFS, a Naturopath told me " You are failing to

mutate properly! " (to TOXIC world). I thought, hmmm, that makes

the " healthies " ..MUTANTS!}

***Sorry, I don't think the Naturopath was right about that.

>

> anyway,

>

> *Some of the earliest CFS Research said our DNA has been altered

by the disease...wouldn't that alter genes?

***I'm not sure what research you are referring to here. If you

mean the work from the guy in Berkeley a few years ago about a

particular part of the genome that makes random changes in an effort

to come up with a response to new threats, O.K. That's a special,

limited part of the genome that does that.

>

> * Genetics are extremely complicated and the field is very new,

with many murky areas so far...even for Geneticists.

***I find it pretty complicated, too!

>

> * There is alot of jumping the gun on genetics, genetic

experimentations, and conclusions...some would say far too quickly.

***That may be true.

>

> * With all of the environmental changes, pathogens, and genetic

alterations we know are happening, how can anyone conclude these

things?

***Well, I do think it takes careful study.

>

> * Have list members read very much else on genetics in general?

***I don't know. I can't speak for them.

>

> I'm very interested in any Autism connection with CFS, in

genetics, in genetics as connected to CFS, and in mine specifically.

If ever I could afford testing, perhaps I would get it.

***I hope you will be able to. It looks very promising.

>

> This is a big question for many people right now, with many

diseases, or with none, about considering the implications of

genetic testing (on record).

***Yes, there are a lot of ramifications to genetic testing. How

are we going to continue to have insurance, which is based on not

knowing who is going to get what, when we can look at the genes and

see what each person is vulnerable to?

>

> It seems to be mighty fast acting/concluding going on here!

Perhaps everyone has studied genetics, implications of testing and

clearly decided, but I haven't heard alot of the questions I would

expect first. (that the rest of the world is doing).

***Yes, things are happening very fast. That's characteristic of

periods of scientific revolution. Quite different from what

Kuhn called " normal science. "

>

> Other comments/questions...Rich, what definition of CFS are you

using? Do all here that you are studying/advising fit that criteria?

***As I said above, there are subsets. We probably haven't

identified all of them yet. I think that what I'm saying fits most

of them, but I can't say it fits them all.

>

> You recently said you are studying Fukuda def., which by the way,

in case no one noticed, has morphed before our very eyes into

something " else " ...CFS and " CFS-LIKE " , whatever that means.

general " Fatiguing illnesses " , apparently.

***Until we nail down specifically what's going on in the various

subsets, the definition is going to continue to be fuzzy.

>

> Are you using the recent 14 " stress gene " " allopathic load " papers

from the CDC? Those were not based on " original CFS " , (now Commonly

called ME/CFS) or even Fukuda.

***I find it more useful to study individual cases and try to sort

out what went on in each one. People will argue over the

definitions till the cows come home, and I don't find it

productive. We need to look at real people. I thought the

polymorphism parts of that work were helpful. I'm less interested

in gene expression.

>

> Dr. Enlander and Kerr do not find them significant, and believe

gene expression is far more significant.

***The problem with gene expression studies is that you don't know

where to go after you do them. They reflect the pathophysiology of

the peripheral blood mononuclear cells, but they don't tell you how

the cells got that way. The polymorphisms are the real paydirt in

CFS genetics research. If you know those, you can figure out the

pathogenesis, and that gets you closer to root causes. If you don't

get to root causes, you will not have cures. You will just continue

to treat symptoms.

>

> Where does gene expression fit into your/Yasko's thinking?

***I can't speak for Amy Yasko. I don't find them very helpful,

with a few exceptions. They do tell you that the peripheral blood

mononuclear cells are not operating normally, but we already knew

that. If Dr. Gow is correct about Lyme and CFS having the same gene

expression, that's really significant. Beyond that, I don't see

where you go from these studies.

>

> Are you opposing the thinking of CFS Scientists so far, or does

your theory encompass any of theirs?

***Well, there are quite a few CFS scientists, and no doubt they

believe all sorts of things. Not many seem to have a comprehensive

pathogenesis hypothesis. Most seem to be working in a very narrow

part of the overall picture of CFS. I use a systems approach, which

has not been common in the biomedical sciences in the past. But

generally, I would say that my current hypothesis explains nearly

all of the actual observations that have been made in CFS research.

There are still a few pieces of the puzzle that I don't see how to

connect yet, but I think they will fit, too, eventually, since the

overall picture is looking good.

>

> Originally " CFS " described an epidemic disease that hit the US in

the 80s, literally overnight for many, usually in a viral form.

Most closely fitting the description of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis,

around for many decades.

> Is this (Neurological) disease still being discussed on this list,

or in any of your theories? Has it become only a subset of the list,

theories as opposed to the main topic over the years?

***I would say it's a subset. Most of the people on the list do not

have epidemic cases. Rather, they have sporadic cases. I'm not

sure how well my hypothesis fits the epidemic cases. It seems more

likely that a very virulent pathogen was involved in them, that was

able to knock down almost everyone who was exposed. In the case of

the Incline Village cluster, I think a good case can be made for

mold involvement, with perhaps a virus on top of that. I'm not sure.

>

> Do patients following this (Rich's) theory accept that your

disease's onset included psychological/emotional

> causes?

***Note that I'm not saying that everyone's case involved

psychological/emotional causes. Some certainly did. The point is

that a whole variety of stressors, physical, chemical, biological

and psychological/emotional are treated the same way by the

nonspecific stress response systems in the body, and these systems

can be overloaded in a variety of ways.

>

> What should those on the edge of organ failure be doing in the

short term?

***They should try to support their glutathione levels while they

get their methylation cycle genes characterized, and then they

should treat their genetic variations specifically.

>

> Don't anyone start screaming at me. I'm sure Rich can handle these

questions as they will be asked world wide to anyone announcing the

probable " cause {and treatment} of CFS. "

***No problem, Katrina. I welcome them!

>

> And I can't study Amy Yasco, purchase her tapes and books, and get

genovations testing to ask these questions...!

***I'm hoping things will become simpler and easier (and cheaper!)

as we learn more.

>

> Thank you,

>

> Katrina

***You're welcome.

***Rich

July 21, 2006

> >

> > >>>>Autism and CFS appear to be caused by a combination of genetic

> predisposition plus circumstances that occur in the person's life.

> > Both are necessary.<<<<

> >

> > Rich, according to who, exactly? That certainly is an

> authoritative, definitive sounding statement!

> > Especially after 20 years of Scientists around the world trying to

> solve the complexities of CFS.

>

> ***Well, according to me! Who else! (:-) I think Amy Yasko would

> agree, however, and she was way ahead of me. And I would venture to

> say that we are currently witnessing the beginnings of a scientific

> revolution in the understanding of CFS. How's that for an

> understatement? (:-)

>

> ***On what basis do I make these wild claims? Well, first of all,

> they explain the observations. On the genetic side, there is growing

> evidence for a genetic predisposition in CFS. This includes the

> twin studies, the familial occurrence of CFS, the published

> polymorphism studies, and the individual polymorphism test results

> of people on this list. Also, there has to be an explanation for

> why some people get CFS while most don't, even though they

> experience similar things in their lives. Genetic predisposition

> can explain that. So genes definitely play a role. Actually genes

> play a role in nearly every disorder, because they have a lot to do

> with determining the response of the organism, so it's pretty much a

> foregone conclusion that genes are involved. The only question is,

> how strongly, and we are getting more evidence now that the

> contribution is significant.

>

> ***Now, how about the life circumstances part? Well, there are lots

> of published studies on this, and I cited them in my 2004 poster

> paper. And the experience of many on this list is that they can

> point to things that happened to them just prior to the onset of

> CFS, and in many cases these were very stressful things or

> combinations of things. So I think this explains that part of it,

> too. The combination of genes and stressors also takes care of the

> argument that everyone experiences stressors, but not everyone gets

> CFS. That's why I say that both are necessary.

> >

> > I'm kinda confused...As far as I know, you've only been studying

> Autism, Amy Yasco, genetics for a very short time. In that short

> period do you mean you, Amy Yasco, or she and you have finally

> cracked the mystery that no one else could?

> > ANd that it's " faulty genes " ?

>

> ***Well, you know, that kind of thing does happen in science.

> Nobody can figure something out for a long time, and then, one day,

> somebody does. Doesn't happen every day, but it does happen.

>

> ***It's not just genes. It's a combination of genes plus

> circumstances.

> >

> > Somehow, I don't see how healthy 10s of thousands of people in

> the Prime of Life, and children, could be downed for life...

> overnight... by faulty genes !

>

> ***As I say, it's a combination of genetic predisposition and things

> that happen in a person's life. Those things can be extreme

> physical stress or physical trauma, chemical toxins, exposure to

> infections, a load of long-term emotional stress, or some

> combination of things of that sort. The combination of stressors is

> different in each case.

> >

> > >>>>>In CFS, there is a range of possible circumstances involved,

> including physical, chemical, biological and psychological/emotional

> factors, and the combination

> > > varies from one case to another.<<<<<

> >

> > Hmmm

> >

> > This sounds like

> >

> > A) Part " Biopsychosocial " model of CFS, which we first heard about

> from UK shrinks....with the theory that it is actually the

> emotional/mental that triggers and/or keeps the illness going

>

> ***The important thing to realize is that emotional stress gets

> translated into biochemical and physiological changes in the body by

> the stress response system. I'm referring to secretion of cortisol,

> epinephrine and norepinephrine. This is not the biopsychosocial

> model. It's not the " all in your head " model.

> >

> > Could describe any disorder

>

> ***In fact, I would say that when put under a high enough load of

> stressors for a long enough time, any human being will crack. How

> they crack will depend on their genetic makeup. A fraction of the

> population will develop CFS. Another fraction will develop heart

> disease. Another will get cancer. Another will lose their minds,

> etc. So in that sense, this model does describe a number of

> disorders. But the key thing is that both the genetics and the

> stressors are important in determining whether a person will get CFS.

> >

> > C) What ever happened to overnight, viral onset?

>

> ***I believe that in many of these cases there was a history of

> stressors behind the scenes that raised cortisol for an extended

> period, and lowered glutathione, leading up to the viral onset.

> These stressors set the person up to have a suppressed cell-mediated

> immunity by raising cortisol for a long time, and depleting

> glutathione. The low glutathione is also what permitted the

> reactivation of a latent virus that was already in the person's body

> in most cases.

> >

> > D) If it is thermasol mercury or viruses in Autism, why is

> > it a combination physical w/ emotional for CFS?

>

> ***It's a matter of what happened first in the person's life that

> was severe enough in terms of glutathione depletion to trigger the

> vicious circle mechanism that was made possible by the genetic

> makeup. In the case of the autistic kids, they were hit with enough

> mercury and live viruses to deplete their glutathione enough before

> age 3 to plunge them into the vicious circle. In the case of the

> people with CFS, the vaccination schedule when they were children

> was not heavy enough to trigger the vicious circle mechanism in

> them, even though they had the genetic makeup. It was only when

> they became older that a large enough stressor load was experienced

> to trigger their onset. But the vaccination schedule kept growing,

> and more and more people were triggered at an early age.

>

> > E) This theory can sweep away overnight those pesky lawsuits and

> investigations into thermosol, pesticides, mercury emissions, toxic

> water supply, Air pollution, chemicals leaching into soil! Not to

> mention, any emerging pathogen theories.

>

> ***I don't have an opinion about any lawsuits.

> >

> > Does this mean you have discovered the marker(s) specific for CFS?

> >

> ***If you mean a diagnostic test, I think we are close to that.

> It's a little messy, because there are different combinations of

> genetic variations that produce CFS symptoms when the person is

> pushed into the vicious circle, and they produce different subsets.

> We have known for a long time that there are different subsets, and

> it looks as though the different combinations of genetic variations

> can account for them.

> >

> > For Rich, Dan, Adrienne and Janet...

> >

> > *I don't believe anyone can say these are fixed genes we are born

> with. Many things are believed to be altering genes these days.

> (Think purposely genetically altered food and bugs, with " bugs " ).

> > A major " purpose " of Human Genome project is to ...alter genes.

>

> ***I'm not saying that it's impossible to alter genes when producing

> new varieties of plants or animals. What I'm saying is that the

> genes in a living human being are going to stay the same throughout

> their life, except for occasional mutations, some of which can cause

> cancer.

> >

> > *Rich, you say genes are fixed, except for " occasional mutations " .

> things may have changed considerably since that was true. The entire

> plant and animal world is mutating...3 legs, multiple eyes,

> reproductive changes in frogs. The one I just read in the UK is male

> fish that are morphing into female. It could change the whole fish

> species in the UK in a year...

>

> ***See my answer above.

>

> > Humans also..low sperm counts, in males, earlier and earlier

> menstruation in girls...

>

> ***These are not due to changes in the genes. They are epigenetic

> effects, apparently due to exposure to environmental estrogen-like

> compounds.

> >

> > {When I first got ME/CFS, a Naturopath told me " You are failing to

> mutate properly! " (to TOXIC world). I thought, hmmm, that makes

> the " healthies " ..MUTANTS!}

>

> ***Sorry, I don't think the Naturopath was right about that.

> >

> > anyway,

> >

> > *Some of the earliest CFS Research said our DNA has been altered

> by the disease...wouldn't that alter genes?

>

> ***I'm not sure what research you are referring to here. If you

> mean the work from the guy in Berkeley a few years ago about a

> particular part of the genome that makes random changes in an effort

> to come up with a response to new threats, O.K. That's a special,

> limited part of the genome that does that.

> >

> > * Genetics are extremely complicated and the field is very new,

> with many murky areas so far...even for Geneticists.

>

> ***I find it pretty complicated, too!

> >

> > * There is alot of jumping the gun on genetics, genetic

> experimentations, and conclusions...some would say far too quickly.

>

> ***That may be true.

> >

> > * With all of the environmental changes, pathogens, and genetic

> alterations we know are happening, how can anyone conclude these

> things?

>

> ***Well, I do think it takes careful study.

> >

> > * Have list members read very much else on genetics in general?

>

> ***I don't know. I can't speak for them.

> >

> > I'm very interested in any Autism connection with CFS, in

> genetics, in genetics as connected to CFS, and in mine specifically.

> If ever I could afford testing, perhaps I would get it.

>

> ***I hope you will be able to. It looks very promising.

> >

> > This is a big question for many people right now, with many

> diseases, or with none, about considering the implications of

> genetic testing (on record).

>

> ***Yes, there are a lot of ramifications to genetic testing. How

> are we going to continue to have insurance, which is based on not

> knowing who is going to get what, when we can look at the genes and

> see what each person is vulnerable to?

> >

> > It seems to be mighty fast acting/concluding going on here!

> Perhaps everyone has studied genetics, implications of testing and

> clearly decided, but I haven't heard alot of the questions I would

> expect first. (that the rest of the world is doing).

>

> ***Yes, things are happening very fast. That's characteristic of

> periods of scientific revolution. Quite different from what

> Kuhn called " normal science. "

> >

> > Other comments/questions...Rich, what definition of CFS are you

> using? Do all here that you are studying/advising fit that criteria?

>

> ***As I said above, there are subsets. We probably haven't

> identified all of them yet. I think that what I'm saying fits most

> of them, but I can't say it fits them all.

> >

> > You recently said you are studying Fukuda def., which by the way,

> in case no one noticed, has morphed before our very eyes into

> something " else " ...CFS and " CFS-LIKE " , whatever that means.

> general " Fatiguing illnesses " , apparently.

>

> ***Until we nail down specifically what's going on in the various

> subsets, the definition is going to continue to be fuzzy.

> >

> > Are you using the recent 14 " stress gene " " allopathic load " papers

> from the CDC? Those were not based on " original CFS " , (now Commonly

> called ME/CFS) or even Fukuda.

>

> ***I find it more useful to study individual cases and try to sort

> out what went on in each one. People will argue over the

> definitions till the cows come home, and I don't find it

> productive. We need to look at real people. I thought the

> polymorphism parts of that work were helpful. I'm less interested

> in gene expression.

> >

> > Dr. Enlander and Kerr do not find them significant, and believe

> gene expression is far more significant.

>

> ***The problem with gene expression studies is that you don't know

> where to go after you do them. They reflect the pathophysiology of

> the peripheral blood mononuclear cells, but they don't tell you how

> the cells got that way. The polymorphisms are the real paydirt in

> CFS genetics research. If you know those, you can figure out the

> pathogenesis, and that gets you closer to root causes. If you don't

> get to root causes, you will not have cures. You will just continue

> to treat symptoms.

> >

> > Where does gene expression fit into your/Yasko's thinking?

>

> ***I can't speak for Amy Yasko. I don't find them very helpful,

> with a few exceptions. They do tell you that the peripheral blood

> mononuclear cells are not operating normally, but we already knew

> that. If Dr. Gow is correct about Lyme and CFS having the same gene

> expression, that's really significant. Beyond that, I don't see

> where you go from these studies.

> >

> > Are you opposing the thinking of CFS Scientists so far, or does

> your theory encompass any of theirs?

>

> ***Well, there are quite a few CFS scientists, and no doubt they

> believe all sorts of things. Not many seem to have a comprehensive

> pathogenesis hypothesis. Most seem to be working in a very narrow

> part of the overall picture of CFS. I use a systems approach, which

> has not been common in the biomedical sciences in the past. But

> generally, I would say that my current hypothesis explains nearly

> all of the actual observations that have been made in CFS research.

> There are still a few pieces of the puzzle that I don't see how to

> connect yet, but I think they will fit, too, eventually, since the

> overall picture is looking good.

> >

> > Originally " CFS " described an epidemic disease that hit the US in

> the 80s, literally overnight for many, usually in a viral form.

> Most closely fitting the description of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis,

> around for many decades.

> > Is this (Neurological) disease still being discussed on this list,

> or in any of your theories? Has it become only a subset of the list,

> theories as opposed to the main topic over the years?

>

> ***I would say it's a subset. Most of the people on the list do not

> have epidemic cases. Rather, they have sporadic cases. I'm not

> sure how well my hypothesis fits the epidemic cases. It seems more

> likely that a very virulent pathogen was involved in them, that was

> able to knock down almost everyone who was exposed. In the case of

> the Incline Village cluster, I think a good case can be made for

> mold involvement, with perhaps a virus on top of that. I'm not sure.

>

> >

> > Do patients following this (Rich's) theory accept that your

> disease's onset included psychological/emotional

> > causes?

>

> ***Note that I'm not saying that everyone's case involved

> psychological/emotional causes. Some certainly did. The point is

> that a whole variety of stressors, physical, chemical, biological

> and psychological/emotional are treated the same way by the

> nonspecific stress response systems in the body, and these systems

> can be overloaded in a variety of ways.

> >

> > What should those on the edge of organ failure be doing in the

> short term?

>

> ***They should try to support their glutathione levels while they

> get their methylation cycle genes characterized, and then they

> should treat their genetic variations specifically.

> >

> > Don't anyone start screaming at me. I'm sure Rich can handle these

> questions as they will be asked world wide to anyone announcing the

> probable " cause {and treatment} of CFS. "

>

> ***No problem, Katrina. I welcome them!

> >

> > And I can't study Amy Yasco, purchase her tapes and books, and get

> genovations testing to ask these questions...!

>

> ***I'm hoping things will become simpler and easier (and cheaper!)

> as we learn more.

> >

> > Thank you,

> >

> > Katrina

>

> ***You're welcome.

>

> ***Rich

>

July 22, 2006

Well, yes!!

It's always been the case that under relatively identical circumstances one

person will get sick w. something and the next one won't. I think before we knew

about genes it was discussed as a person's " constitution. " They either had a

robust one that got them through things-or not.

Rich's conclusion is not particularly startling or revolutionary. The only

importance to the genetic element is that it seems there is a possibility that

we can use specific genetic info to work around a specific genetic weakness- by

compensating for it, or by altering the expression.

What is happening in the field of autism is, I think, theoretically possible for