Re: And the Kitchen Sink....

[Guest guest]

Leeches actually work. As does even some blood-letting.

Adrienne

Re: Re: And the Kitchen Sink....

On Jul 17, 2006, at 5:51 PM, rvankonynen wrote:

> Hi, Sara.

>

> I think your family doctor was right to be alarmed. I don't think

> they did the right tests at the ER. An EKG, a chest X ray and some

> blood tests are not going to detect what I think the evidence says

> you have. I believe that you have low cardiac output, and that it's

> caused either by a viral cardiomyopathy or by diastolic dysfunction

> secondary to mitochondrial dysfunction, secondary in turn to

> glutathione depletion, secondary in turn to genetic variations in

> genes coding for enzymes that impact the methylation cycle, or

> both. I'm still concerned about you. I hope this new doctor has a

> better understanding of these issues, and that you will be able to

> see her soon. I'm glad that you seem to be keeping your cool, but I

> for one am very chagrined about this.

I'm concerned, too. We actually brought printouts of the full

Peckerman study, along with a collection of stuff from Lerner, along

with us. He wouldn't even look at them. And when my husband started

talking about diastolic dysfunctions, the guy was totally dismissive.

He let us know, in no uncertain terms, that the entire subject was

laughably out-of-bounds. He reacted like we'd proposed using leeches.

But, like I said: I've never heard of a case of heartburn that made

the feet swell. That's just wrong. The good news is that they did do

about 40 various blood assays, and I was pretty much dead-center

normal on all but one or two of them. Which means that all these

supplements I'm using are doing *something* to keep my body working

correctly.

The plan now is to go back to our family doctor, point out that we've

now done the due diligence on the " regular " cardiac fronts, and

insist that we start looking past the usual issues and toward the

more exotic ones. As I said: we've ruled out horses, and are now able

to start chasing zebras. And, thanks to you, we've got one or two

very specific zebras in mind.

Sara

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

Sara,

A friend who goes to the FFC in her state has also developed a mysterious Hi

bp . Maybe just a coincidence, maybe something about the protocol. She takes the

same injections you mention.

Adrienne

Sara said;

My BP was 138/66, a systolic number that is the highest it's ever

been in my life outside of the third trimester of pregnancy. And

that's after being off the Recup entirely after two full days. I'm

not liking that....

[Guest guest]

Sara,

Seems to me it could just as well be a peripheral arterial problem as a coronary

one. In spite of the family history. But you will find out soon enough.

Adrienne

[Guest guest]

To Sara and Rich,

I think I will have to chime in, here, too, as this happened to me last

October, after being on Salt/C, as well..after 34 years of CFS..and a older body

at 53.

..and I do, absolutely, meet the criteria for ME, under the Canadian Case

Definition...mainly,.Neurological Symptoms, now.

I had significant chest pain..weird pains in the back, .racing heart,

" elephant sitting on ches feelingt " and could, barely WALK..after a month or so

of

being on Salt/C...I have not had those intense symptoms, since, but still

have the chest symptomalogy, when I overdo, at all...in fact, when I work,

physically, mentally or emotionally past my limit...entire chest cavity feels

" sore " , tightness...HELP, PLEASE, RICH, WHAT IS HAPPENING??? Is that

Restrictive

Cardiomyopathy???

I have been seen by a " regular cardiologist " , who based on my Stress Echo,

thought I had three blockages of the heart (which I did no,t as I have really

watched my diet and have taken Fish Oil)..according to her, the MOST ABNORMAL

STRESS ECHO, I HAVE EVER SEEN (and this is a very well respected, experienced

cardiologist)...so she declared that I must be on the path to death, and

informed me that I needed a HEART CATHERIZATION...the cardiologist, who did that

test indicated my heart valves are very clear...Ok, I wish they would not

OVERDIAGNOSE, either.

Anyway, my experience shows me that Dr.Cheney, Peckerman and Lerner are on a

very correct path, regarding the heart...and Rich you impress me every day...

Please, Rich, how does an elevated heart rate (well over 100) and after

exertion (128) fit here? I have asked doctors, respiratory therapists, and

they

did not seem to know...I am in the process of gathering info to show to my

Cardiologist..they have put me on Oxygen, now for Hypoxia, diagnosed with Pulse

Ox.

I would appreciate and welcome any further elaboration...

[Guest guest]

Naw, I think it's readily explicable by all the salt I was taking.

When you hear hoofbeats, think horses -- not zebras.

Sara

On Jul 19, 2006, at 12:23 AM, Adrienne G. wrote:

> Sara,

> A friend who goes to the FFC in her state has also developed a

> mysterious Hi bp . Maybe just a coincidence, maybe something about

> the protocol. She takes the same injections you mention.

> Adrienne

>

> Sara said;

> My BP was 138/66, a systolic number that is the highest it's ever

> been in my life outside of the third trimester of pregnancy. And

> that's after being off the Recup entirely after two full days. I'm

> not liking that....

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello...

I was only on the Salt/C regime for a few months, and I slowly built up from

one gram to about 4 grams, so I did not use the drastic amounts some have

utilized..also, I noticed that it was causing an increase in blood pressure

(another reason I did not go up, much)

however, my blood pressure has always been too high (use Micardis for

control)..heart rate always measure too high at rest (over 100) and on exertion

(128)...but these were the first cardiac symptoms that have been SO

OVERT...after Salt C.

I agree about potassium..this seems to be too low in my case, so I do eat

bananas every day.

[Guest guest]

Also, I have been on Probiotics, Nature's Biotics for quite about 6 months...

These intense " heart attack " like symptoms happened last October, 2005, for

day or so ..after which I quit SALT/C..

...but the milder chest symptoms have continued, now, for nine months, after

too much physical exertion, especially...but sometimes after too much

mental/emotional exertion.

[Guest guest]

At the ER, in the United States, I also went through that rigmarole of tests

that did not establish any diagnosis..

[Guest guest]

IMO, I don't think the salt/C approach is good long term. I suspect

that the benefits that people have found following this program is

that the salt kills the bacteria in the gut. The bad bacteria may

have been producing toxins that then contributed to some symptoms. So

killing this bacteria will show signs of improvement. But the salt

will also kill the good gut bacteria. Once the salt program is

stopped, the bad bacteria will be back, since the thing that controls

the bad bacteria, the good bacteria, has also been eliminated.

Another hazard of the salt approach is that it will cause in increase

in potassium loss. Anyone dealing with a heart condition has to be

sure that they have a diet that provides plenty of potassium. This

should come from food sources. Supplementing potassium is risky.

Taken as a supplement it is possible to get too much potassium into

the bloodstream which can be lethal.

A severely burned person dies typically from a potassium overdose as

the burn ruptures cells and the potassium inside the cells is released

into the blood. One first-aid measure for burn victims is salt water,

and lots of it, to help prevent this potassium OD.

All the best,

Jim

>

> To Sara and Rich,

>

> I think I will have to chime in, here, too, as this happened to me

last

> October, after being on Salt/C, as well..after 34 years of CFS..and

a older body

> at 53.

> .and I do, absolutely, meet the criteria for ME, under the Canadian

Case

> Definition...mainly,.Neurological Symptoms, now.

>

> I had significant chest pain..weird pains in the back, .racing heart,

> " elephant sitting on ches feelingt " and could, barely WALK..after a

month or so of

> being on Salt/C...I have not had those intense symptoms, since, but

still

> have the chest symptomalogy, when I overdo, at all...in fact, when

I work,

> physically, mentally or emotionally past my limit...entire chest

cavity feels

> " sore " , tightness...HELP, PLEASE, RICH, WHAT IS HAPPENING??? Is

that Restrictive

> Cardiomyopathy???

>

> I have been seen by a " regular cardiologist " , who based on my Stress

Echo,

> thought I had three blockages of the heart (which I did no,t as I

have really

> watched my diet and have taken Fish Oil)..according to her, the MOST

ABNORMAL

> STRESS ECHO, I HAVE EVER SEEN (and this is a very well respected,

experienced

> cardiologist)...so she declared that I must be on the path to

death, and

> informed me that I needed a HEART CATHERIZATION...the cardiologist,

who did that

> test indicated my heart valves are very clear...Ok, I wish they

would not

> OVERDIAGNOSE, either.

>

> Anyway, my experience shows me that Dr.Cheney, Peckerman and Lerner

are on a

> very correct path, regarding the heart...and Rich you impress me

every day...

>

> Please, Rich, how does an elevated heart rate (well over 100) and

after

> exertion (128) fit here? I have asked doctors, respiratory

therapists, and they

> did not seem to know...I am in the process of gathering info to show

to my

> Cardiologist..they have put me on Oxygen, now for Hypoxia, diagnosed

with Pulse

> Ox.

>

> I would appreciate and welcome any further elaboration...

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Just curious, is your blood pressure low? I wonder what your total

blood volume is? I don't know if this is something that is usually

checked. I think that at this time research hospitals are the only

ones doing it. Anyone know?

-Jim

>

> To Sara and Rich,

>

> I think I will have to chime in, here, too, as this happened to me

last

> October, after being on Salt/C, as well..after 34 years of CFS..and

a older body

> at 53.

> .and I do, absolutely, meet the criteria for ME, under the Canadian

Case

> Definition...mainly,.Neurological Symptoms, now.

>

> I had significant chest pain..weird pains in the back, .racing heart,

> " elephant sitting on ches feelingt " and could, barely WALK..after a

month or so of

> being on Salt/C...I have not had those intense symptoms, since, but

still

> have the chest symptomalogy, when I overdo, at all...in fact, when

I work,

> physically, mentally or emotionally past my limit...entire chest

cavity feels

> " sore " , tightness...HELP, PLEASE, RICH, WHAT IS HAPPENING??? Is

that Restrictive

> Cardiomyopathy???

>

> I have been seen by a " regular cardiologist " , who based on my Stress

Echo,

> thought I had three blockages of the heart (which I did no,t as I

have really

> watched my diet and have taken Fish Oil)..according to her, the MOST

ABNORMAL

> STRESS ECHO, I HAVE EVER SEEN (and this is a very well respected,

experienced

> cardiologist)...so she declared that I must be on the path to

death, and

> informed me that I needed a HEART CATHERIZATION...the cardiologist,

who did that

> test indicated my heart valves are very clear...Ok, I wish they

would not

> OVERDIAGNOSE, either.

>

> Anyway, my experience shows me that Dr.Cheney, Peckerman and Lerner

are on a

> very correct path, regarding the heart...and Rich you impress me

every day...

>

> Please, Rich, how does an elevated heart rate (well over 100) and

after

> exertion (128) fit here? I have asked doctors, respiratory

therapists, and they

> did not seem to know...I am in the process of gathering info to show

to my

> Cardiologist..they have put me on Oxygen, now for Hypoxia, diagnosed

with Pulse

> Ox.

>

> I would appreciate and welcome any further elaboration...

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jim>> IMO, I don't think the salt/C approach is good long term. I

suspect

that the benefits that people have found following this program is

that the salt kills the bacteria in the gut. The bad bacteria may

have been producing toxins that then contributed to some symptoms. So

killing this bacteria will show signs of improvement. But the salt

will also kill the good gut bacteria. Once the salt program is

stopped, the bad bacteria will be back, since the thing that controls

the bad bacteria, the good bacteria, has also been eliminated.

** This is incorrect information. Salt does not kill good bacteria,

otherwise we could not live, as there is salt in bile. Nature uses salt

in the fermentation process, fermentation is where good bacteria (flora)

grows, in the presence of salt, which controls the bad bacteria. Salt

selectively kills gram-negative bacteria through osmotic shock, and does

not harm gram-postiive bacteria, due to the direction of osmotic

pressure gradients.

Bile is a natural form of salt and a mild acid like C. Therefore, I

believe the body uses a type of salt/c to manage the flora balance. So

partly I agree with you, a main benefit of salt/c is normalization of

the gut. That is VERY important for PWC, who like children with autism

tend to have dysbiosis. Salt/c is simply enhancing a biological

process.

Another hazard of the salt approach is that it will cause in increase

in potassium loss. Anyone dealing with a heart condition has to be

sure that they have a diet that provides plenty of potassium. This

should come from food sources. Supplementing potassium is risky.

Taken as a supplement it is possible to get too much potassium into

the bloodstream which can be lethal.

** where did you learn this? I do not believe this is accurate, the

body is designed to manage sodium levels independently in order to

maintain sodium/potassium balance, and that means the body takes care of

excess sodium. Nature designed us to have episodic sodium intake. We

can recycle it for a long time when deprived of sodium in the diet, and

dump excess sodium very quickly.

A severely burned person dies typically from a potassium overdose as

the burn ruptures cells and the potassium inside the cells is released

into the blood. One first-aid measure for burn victims is salt water,

and lots of it, to help prevent this potassium OD.

** this may be true, but has no bearing on this discussion as salt/c

does not cause potassium overdose.

--Kurt

[Guest guest]

Many people on Salt/C have had episodes of chest pressure, like an

elephant, etc., and some get pretty worried, but to my knowledge this

does not turn out to be heart-related. People in the Lyme community

believe this is often caused by die-off of Babesia, as this tends to

happen mostly to people with Babs. I believe that this is generally a

die-off reaction, but if you have a history of heart problems certainly

I would want to make sure that is all this is.

Having pressure feelings in the chest is also common with panic

disorder, which I believe is related in the sense that the neurotoxins

from the Lyme die-off create a similar chemical condition to sever

panic. We have a lot of neurotoxins, I like to remind myself of that

regularly, think about toxins in the nerves. The possibility for false

pains is quite high when you have toxins IN the nerves.

Just ask a cardiologist what percent of chest pain complaints turn out

to be serious heart trouble. I have worked with cardiologists before

professionally, and remember one commenting about this, that they view

their job as helping people rule out heart problems as much as

diagnosing them. And quite often in their practices, chest pains are

not heart-related. A friend of my wife's just went through this last

week, she has symptoms of CFS and Lyme, and was VERY worried and going

to the doctor with chest pains. All the work-ups, etc., and they

basically told her it was psychosomatic. That of course is also

ridiculous, it is neurotoxins.

I have these pains from time to time, along with all of the other

symptoms. And just to be safe, I do keep two supplements handy that I

use when the pain hits. If it is mild, I take a heart support

supplement, usually 'Rhythm Right' by Carlson's. If the pain gets

severe, I want to get oxygen to the heart (just in case), so I take

Cayenne pepper, a capsule. Usually I use 'CapsiCool' by Nature's Way.

Some people say this can even stop a heart attack in progress, it does

that by opening up the blood vessels around the heart. So far these

have always worked for me. Also, treating the liver helps, because if

it is neurotoxins, you need to keep the liver working well. And of

course, you must rule out primary heart disease, In my case I have had

several heart tests that said things were OK, other than the usual weird

CFS findings (odd T-wave, etc.).

--Kurt

Re: Re: And the Kitchen Sink....

To Sara and Rich,

I think I will have to chime in, here, too, as this happened to me last

October, after being on Salt/C, as well..after 34 years of CFS..and a

older body

at 53.

..and I do, absolutely, meet the criteria for ME, under the Canadian Case

Definition...mainly,.Neurological Symptoms, now.

I had significant chest pain..weird pains in the back, .racing heart,

" elephant sitting on ches feelingt " and could, barely WALK..after a

month or so of

being on Salt/C...I have not had those intense symptoms, since, but

still

have the chest symptomalogy, when I overdo, at all...in fact, when I

work,

physically, mentally or emotionally past my limit...entire chest cavity

feels

" sore " , tightness...HELP, PLEASE, RICH, WHAT IS HAPPENING??? Is that

Restrictive

Cardiomyopathy???

I have been seen by a " regular cardiologist " , who based on my Stress

Echo,

thought I had three blockages of the heart (which I did no,t as I have

really

watched my diet and have taken Fish Oil)..according to her, the MOST

ABNORMAL

STRESS ECHO, I HAVE EVER SEEN (and this is a very well respected,

experienced

cardiologist)...so she declared that I must be on the path to death, and

informed me that I needed a HEART CATHERIZATION...the cardiologist, who

did that

test indicated my heart valves are very clear...Ok, I wish they would

not

OVERDIAGNOSE, either.

Anyway, my experience shows me that Dr.Cheney, Peckerman and Lerner are

on a

very correct path, regarding the heart...and Rich you impress me every

day...

Please, Rich, how does an elevated heart rate (well over 100) and after

exertion (128) fit here? I have asked doctors, respiratory therapists,

and they

did not seem to know...I am in the process of gathering info to show to

my

Cardiologist..they have put me on Oxygen, now for Hypoxia, diagnosed

with Pulse

Ox.

I would appreciate and welcome any further elaboration...

[Guest guest]

Kurt,

Thanks for the correction on the effect of salt on gut bacteria. I'll

have to do a little more studying on this.

As for the info that too much sodium can upset potassium balance.

This information comes from Bernard Jensen's book " The Chemistry of

Man " . He is big on sodium from food sources but does not recommend

inorganic sodium such as table salt. However, He does suggest its use

in enemas, for its germ killing properties.

All the best,

Jim

>

> Jim>> IMO, I don't think the salt/C approach is good long term. I

> suspect

> that the benefits that people have found following this program is

> that the salt kills the bacteria in the gut. The bad bacteria may

> have been producing toxins that then contributed to some symptoms. So

> killing this bacteria will show signs of improvement. But the salt

> will also kill the good gut bacteria. Once the salt program is

> stopped, the bad bacteria will be back, since the thing that controls

> the bad bacteria, the good bacteria, has also been eliminated.

>

>

> ** This is incorrect information. Salt does not kill good bacteria,

> otherwise we could not live, as there is salt in bile. Nature uses salt

> in the fermentation process, fermentation is where good bacteria (flora)

> grows, in the presence of salt, which controls the bad bacteria. Salt

> selectively kills gram-negative bacteria through osmotic shock, and does

> not harm gram-postiive bacteria, due to the direction of osmotic

> pressure gradients.

> Bile is a natural form of salt and a mild acid like C. Therefore, I

> believe the body uses a type of salt/c to manage the flora balance. So

> partly I agree with you, a main benefit of salt/c is normalization of

> the gut. That is VERY important for PWC, who like children with autism

> tend to have dysbiosis. Salt/c is simply enhancing a biological

> process.

>

> Another hazard of the salt approach is that it will cause in increase

> in potassium loss. Anyone dealing with a heart condition has to be

> sure that they have a diet that provides plenty of potassium. This

> should come from food sources. Supplementing potassium is risky.

> Taken as a supplement it is possible to get too much potassium into

> the bloodstream which can be lethal.

>

>

>

> ** where did you learn this? I do not believe this is accurate, the

> body is designed to manage sodium levels independently in order to

> maintain sodium/potassium balance, and that means the body takes care of

> excess sodium. Nature designed us to have episodic sodium intake. We

> can recycle it for a long time when deprived of sodium in the diet, and

> dump excess sodium very quickly.

>

> A severely burned person dies typically from a potassium overdose as

> the burn ruptures cells and the potassium inside the cells is released

> into the blood. One first-aid measure for burn victims is salt water,

> and lots of it, to help prevent this potassium OD.

>

>

>

> ** this may be true, but has no bearing on this discussion as salt/c

> does not cause potassium overdose.

>

> --Kurt

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ok, what does this mean for a person, who did have H. Pylori bacterial

which produced Peptic Ulcer which continued for many years, until I insisted

that

I be treated with AB for this..

..The AB stopped the ulcer within a few weeks (have not had a recurrence of

those symptoms, since), after 9 years of pleading with docs to diagnose/treat

the ulcer

Now, I have told Rich that the Salt/C treatment (just worked up to 4

grams/salt, gradually increasing it for a few months..Had adverse

reaction...almost

heart failure symptoms...for a day or so.

Amelia

[Guest guest]

>

> Jim>> IMO, I don't think the salt/C approach is good long term. I

> suspect

> that the benefits that people have found following this program is

> that the salt kills the bacteria in the gut.

>

> ** This is incorrect information. Salt does not kill good

bacteria,

> otherwise we could not live, as there is salt in bile.

Not only that, but:

Int J Cancer. 2006 Apr 27;

High salt diets dose-dependently promote gastric chemical

carcinogenesis in Helicobacter pylori-infected Mongolian gerbils

associated with a shift in mucin production from glandular to

surface mucous cells.

Intake of salt and salty food is known as a risk factor for gastric

carcinogenesis. To examine the dose-dependence and the mechanisms

underlying enhancing effects, Mongolian gerbils were treated with N-

methyl-N-nitrosourea (MNU), Helicobacter pylori and food containing

various concentrations of salt, and were sacrificed after 50 weeks.

Among gerbils treated with MNU and H. pylori, the incidences of

glandular stomach cancers were 15% in the normal diet group and 33%,

36% and 63% in the 2.5%, 5% and 10% NaCl diet groups, showing dose-

dependent increase (p < 0.01). Intermittent intragastric injection

of saturated NaCl solution, in contrast, did not promote gastric

carcinogenesis. In gerbils infected with H. pylori, a high salt diet

was associated with elevation of anti-H. pylori antibody titers,

serum gastrin levels and inflammatory cell infiltration in a dose-

dependent fashion. Ten percent NaCl diet upregulated the amount of

surface mucous cell mucin (p < 0.05), suitable for H. pylori

colonization, despite no increment of MUC5AC mRNA, while H. pylori

infection itself had an opposing effect, stimulating transcription

of MUC6 and increasing the amount of gland mucous cell mucin (GMCM).

High salt diet, in turn, decreased the amount of GMCM, which acts

against H. pylori infection. In conclusion, the present study

demonstrated dose-dependent enhancing effects of salt in gastric

chemical carcinogenesis in H. pylori-infected Mongolian gerbils

associated with alteration of the mucous microenvironment. Reduction

of salt intake could thus be one of the most important

chemopreventive methods for human gastric carcinogenesis. © 2006

Wiley-Liss, Inc.