Spotting toxic mold

[Guest guest]

and all,

I learned to spot toxic mold because Pete and I ate dinner with in a

mold contaminated casino. Since then I have become the proverbial mold dog

and can spot it immediately upon entering a contaminated area such as an

airport or medical building, etc. Not all of these are contaminated.

But one thing I learned over time - EVERY PUBLIC LIBRARY IS CONTAMINATED

because books hold mold. So my question is this:

What if folks on this list went to a public library and sat for an hour

reading. If they felt much worse during that time would that be a clue that

mold bothers them? If it is a clue they can also pick up the " smell " of that

mold and spot it in a few minutes in any other building.

This works for me. My husband has no response to mold as I do. I often ask

him if he can smell the mold in a building when I smell it. He does not, nor

does he start to feel bad in the same building.

What do you think, ? This might help folks figure out if their houses

are contaminated. I know cleaning the shower is not going to fix the house

IF there is toxic mold in that house.

a

[Guest guest]

Hi a,

What do you exactly mean by " spot " mold. I am going to experiment tomorrow up

in the Reno and Minden area. Do you actually look for the mold or does it make

you sick?

Last ime I went up there in the winter I got a terrible rash on my face and

neck. I thought it was the smoke in the casinos or the elveation. I wonder if it

was the mold.

Can mold cause a rash like thatt . . I normally never get that rash. Maybe it

was just my immune system reacting to many stressors . . . I also have Lyme and

I know Lyme like high elevations.

Thanks for everyones input

Sue T

a Carnes <pj7@...> wrote:

and all,

I learned to spot toxic mold because Pete and I ate dinner with in a

mold contaminated casino. Since then I have become the proverbial mold dog

and can spot it immediately upon entering a contaminated area such as an

airport or medical building, etc. Not all of these are contaminated.

But one thing I learned over time - EVERY PUBLIC LIBRARY IS CONTAMINATED

because books hold mold. So my question is this:

What if folks on this list went to a public library and sat for an hour

reading. If they felt much worse during that time would that be a clue that

mold bothers them? If it is a clue they can also pick up the " smell " of that

mold and spot it in a few minutes in any other building.

This works for me. My husband has no response to mold as I do. I often ask

him if he can smell the mold in a building when I smell it. He does not, nor

does he start to feel bad in the same building.

What do you think, ? This might help folks figure out if their houses

are contaminated. I know cleaning the shower is not going to fix the house

IF there is toxic mold in that house.

a

[Guest guest]

Sue,

The way I first figured it out was that we had dinner around 6 pm at that

casino in Reno. Then Pete and I spent two nights there. had told us at

dinner he thought the hotel was okay. But the next day he came back to visit

for another hour or so and came up to our room. The minute he walked in the

door he said, " This room is full of mold. " I had noticed that I was very

spacy - not usual for me anymore - I forgot words and felt pressure in my

head.

By the next morning Pete and I left Reno to visit Lake Tahoe. I felt

HORRIBLE with a headache, spacy, anxiety for no reason. It took me several

hours to begin to feel better with a lot of fresh air.

So after that I started just trying to be aware of how I felt in certain

buildings when that anxiety and head pressure started up. I found it in a

doctor's office where my blood pressure would go sky high. Then I found it

in another doctor's office where I was getting my eye's examined. I felt

like crying and screaming while just having an eye exam. It was weird.

Airports were awful, and that was were I began to realize I could smell the

stuff. My husband never could even when I mentioned it.

I suggest the library because the toxic mold is always there, and the smell

is fairly easy to spot once you realize you are succeptible. Let me repeat

that it NEVER bothers my husband. He seems to have no sensitivity at all and

cannot spot the smell. But you will pick up on it if you start paying

attention. I know I sound like a hypochondriac but I don't smell it

everywhere. In fact looking back I often find that the very building that

bothers me later turns out to be contaminated. I swim most days at a

neighborhood pool where I live. When it closed down we had to go to another

pool and I kept saying I felt sick there and the women's dressing room

smelled bad. Two years later we learned that it has been closed DUE TO MOLD

BETWEEN THE TWO DRESSING ROOMS IN THE WALL. Hello! The other pool has never

bothered me.

Of course since and now I are mold dogs, we could train you. LOL But

only if you are succeptible. My husband is untrainable.

a

[Guest guest]

How would you like to pay a little visit?

Seriouslky, *every* library, even ones in relatively small communities?

That would be good to know, thjough you'd think there'd be a lot of

llibrarians in our ranks......

- Bob Niederman

On 7/14/06, a Carnes <pj7@...> wrote:

>

> Sue,

>

> Of course since and now I are mold dogs, we could train you. LOL But

> only if you are succeptible. My husband is untrainable.

>

>

> a

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi a,

OK I understand. . . . Thanks for the explaination. I know now that I have

experienced the same.

I am not looking forward to going over there now. Its good that I only need to

spend one night.

I appreciate you two Mold Dogs . . . you are the experts. I know for sure now

that my 82 year old mother is suffering from a severe mold problem and my 26

year old son's too. They both live in homes full of mold.

I wish I could my mother to listen. She is SO stubborn.

Best wishes,

Sue T

a Carnes <pj7@...> wrote:

Sue,

The way I first figured it out was that we had dinner around 6 pm at that

casino in Reno. Then Pete and I spent two nights there. had told us at

dinner he thought the hotel was okay. But the next day he came back to visit

for another hour or so and came up to our room. The minute he walked in the

door he said, " This room is full of mold. " I had noticed that I was very

spacy - not usual for me anymore - I forgot words and felt pressure in my

head.

By the next morning Pete and I left Reno to visit Lake Tahoe. I felt

HORRIBLE with a headache, spacy, anxiety for no reason. It took me several

hours to begin to feel better with a lot of fresh air.

So after that I started just trying to be aware of how I felt in certain

buildings when that anxiety and head pressure started up. I found it in a

doctor's office where my blood pressure would go sky high. Then I found it

in another doctor's office where I was getting my eye's examined. I felt

like crying and screaming while just having an eye exam. It was weird.

Airports were awful, and that was were I began to realize I could smell the

stuff. My husband never could even when I mentioned it.

I suggest the library because the toxic mold is always there, and the smell

is fairly easy to spot once you realize you are succeptible. Let me repeat

that it NEVER bothers my husband. He seems to have no sensitivity at all and

cannot spot the smell. But you will pick up on it if you start paying

attention. I know I sound like a hypochondriac but I don't smell it

everywhere. In fact looking back I often find that the very building that

bothers me later turns out to be contaminated. I swim most days at a

neighborhood pool where I live. When it closed down we had to go to another

pool and I kept saying I felt sick there and the women's dressing room

smelled bad. Two years later we learned that it has been closed DUE TO MOLD

BETWEEN THE TWO DRESSING ROOMS IN THE WALL. Hello! The other pool has never

bothered me.

Of course since and now I are mold dogs, we could train you. LOL But

only if you are succeptible. My husband is untrainable.

a

[Guest guest]

Seriouslky, *every* library, even ones in relatively small communities?

That would be good to know, thjough you'd think there'd be a lot of

llibrarians in our ranks......

- Bob Niederman

Bob,

Books tend to hold mold. Yes, even small bookcases full of books in your

home would tend to be moldy.

That is an interesting point though about librarians. We know that a high

percentage of school teachers have cfs. I don't know if anyone has done a

study on how many librarians have cfs or fms. It would be interesting. Do

remember that mold by itself isn't going to bother everyone, just as not

every person in Truckee high school got sick.

But I have not ever heard any epidemiology study that surveyed just

librarians. Another interesting study would be carpeted vs hard surface

buildings.

a

[Guest guest]

Sue T < wrote:

> Hi a,

OK I understand. . . . Thanks for the explaination. I know now

that I have experienced the same. I am not looking forward to

going over there now. Its good that I only need to spend one night.

> I appreciate you two Mold Dogs . . . you are the experts. I know

for sure now that my 82 year old mother is suffering from a severe

mold problem and my 26 year old son's too. They both live in homes

full of mold. I wish I could my mother to listen. She is SO

stubborn.

> Best wishes,

> Sue T

If you are on your way to Reno - Minden, why futz around with

anything less than going to Ground Zero?

I think this group would be interested to know what you feel inside

Truckee HS.

It's not as bad as it was, since they ripped out the moldy carpet

so long ago, and just went with linoleum, but it's still a slammer.

More than enough to make the point.

-

[Guest guest]

That would be from dealing with students all day - talk about stress!

On 7/14/06, a Carnes <pj7@...> wrote:

>

> We know that a high

> percentage of school teachers have cfs.

>

[Guest guest]

,

I can drive up to the building, but it will be closed this weekend.

Will I get enough of the exposure by just walking around the outside?

I will definetely give the group an updatye. I feel pretty good today . . . so

I will see what happens this weekend.

Thanks for the ideas!

Sue T

erikmoldwarrior <erikmoldwarrior@...> wrote:

Sue T < wrote:

> Hi a,

OK I understand. . . . Thanks for the explaination. I know now

that I have experienced the same. I am not looking forward to

going over there now. Its good that I only need to spend one night.

> I appreciate you two Mold Dogs . . . you are the experts. I know

for sure now that my 82 year old mother is suffering from a severe

mold problem and my 26 year old son's too. They both live in homes

full of mold. I wish I could my mother to listen. She is SO

stubborn.

> Best wishes,

> Sue T

If you are on your way to Reno - Minden, why futz around with

anything less than going to Ground Zero?

I think this group would be interested to know what you feel inside

Truckee HS.

It's not as bad as it was, since they ripped out the moldy carpet

so long ago, and just went with linoleum, but it's still a slammer.

More than enough to make the point.

-

[Guest guest]

On Jul 14, 2006, at 11:28 AM, Sue T wrote:

> Hi a,

>

> What do you exactly mean by " spot " mold. I am going to experiment

> tomorrow up in the Reno and Minden area. Do you actually look for

> the mold or does it make you sick?

> Last ime I went up there in the winter I got a terrible rash on

> my face and neck. I thought it was the smoke in the casinos or the

> elveation. I wonder if it was the mold.

> Can mold cause a rash like thatt . . I normally never get that

> rash. Maybe it was just my immune system reacting to many

> stressors . . . I also have Lyme and I know Lyme like high elevations.

The weird thing about this (to my mind, having grown up in the

Eastern Sierra, down in Bishop) is that this is probably one of the

hardest places in the country to grow mold. The eastern slope of the

Sierra has such low humidity, and such temperature extremes, that

you've got to pretty much build an incubator to grow the stuff. Dust

is a huge problem -- mold, not so much.

Unless, that is, you've got a building that simply never dries out.

The Peppermill, with that synthetic jungle monsoon thing going on in

the buffet, is probably the best place between Lassen and Lancaster

to find mold, though my stepmother's bathroom (leaky pipes in the

wall unrepaired for probably 20 years) is a close second. I could see

Incline, being just over the crest on the west slope and closer to

the lake, being more hospitable to mold.

Minden has got to be one of the driest places in North America. I'll

be surprised (and interested) if you do spot some.

Sara

[Guest guest]

Sue,

I doubt that walking around the outside of a building would be enough

exposure, at least not the first time. You kind of get a sense for it after

a few times. I can spot a mold plume blowing out a building door, but not

just walking around outside.

Also, remember what I described at the casino in Reno was after my husband

and I spent two nights there. I really didn't get it the first day. Maybe I

would now, but I don't want to go back and see. LOL

a

[Guest guest]

Minden has got to be one of the driest places in North America. I'll

be surprised (and interested) if you do spot some.

Sara

Hi Sara,

Do you dusty dirty . . . or moldy dirty?

Sue T

[Guest guest]

Mercuria wrote:

> The weird thing about this (to my mind, having grown up in the

Eastern Sierra, down in Bishop) is that this is probably one of the

hardest places in the country to grow mold.> Sara

>

Try the station masters house at Laws museum.

I guess everyone missed the point about the teachers at North Tahoe

HS. They were only proximal to a colony six inches in diameter for

a few hours a day.

Stachy colonies are like smoking craters during a chemical warfare

artillery barrage of Nerve Agent.

The guy just upwind of the crater doesn't feel a thing.

The platoon a hundred yards downwind are all dead.

Since you can't see Nerve Gas except in initial volatolization, the

first signs that the shell was CBR is a pile of dead soldiers.

I guess that if you were a doctor, you'd diagnose them all as

having died of mass hysteria.

Once I started mold avoidance and identified the plumes around

Incline, all I had to avoid were those areas.

I didn't leave Incline to do this. In fact, I was directly across

the parking lot from Dr s office.

I kept his receptionist updated on my progress.

But that story is in Mold Warriors.

-

[Guest guest]

On Jul 15, 2006, at 7:07 AM, Sue T wrote:

> Minden has got to be one of the driest places in North America. I'll

> be surprised (and interested) if you do spot some.

>

> Sara

>

>

>

> Hi Sara,

> Do you dusty dirty . . . or moldy dirty?

You need water to grow mold. A place that doesn't have much water

isn't likely to grow much mold, unless the water's collected

somewhere and left for a long time (like behind a wall where pipes

are leaking).

I mean dusty dirty. This is the part of the country where all those

Wayne and Clint Eastwood westerns were filmed -- sagebrush and

tumbleweed country.

Sara

[Guest guest]

On Jul 15, 2006, at 7:58 AM, erikmoldwarrior wrote:

> Mercuria wrote:

>

>> The weird thing about this (to my mind, having grown up in the

> Eastern Sierra, down in Bishop) is that this is probably one of the

> hardest places in the country to grow mold.> Sara

>>

>

> Try the station masters house at Laws museum.

Yeah, well, the place has been sitting in the river bogs for over 100

years, so it's had some time get moldy.

It's not helped by the fact that there's a lot of artesian activity

around Laws; and it's down in the low part of the valley by the

river. We used to fill the truck with 5-gallon bottles and fill them

with extra-special drinking water from a big artesian spring just a

few hundred yards from that house, which ran into the Owens River.

Still the best water I've ever tasted.

Mammoth, on the other hand, is full of moldy buildings. I've worked

in at least two of them. One is the Mammoth Mountain Inn; the other

is the building where the Ralph outlet is now. I had a six-

month job alternating between both of them the winter after I got

sick. Half an hour in the office would have me laid out absolutely

flat, sleeping under my desk. The Inn was even worse -- I feel

allergic all over just thinking about it. And I don't doubt that

there are a lot of buildings in Incline (and South Tahoe, and

anywhere else you'll find skiiers) with the same issues.

Construction in the Sierra ski towns has historically been really

shoddy. Most of the buildings were built by ski bums doing

construction duty during the off season; and most of the contractors

had no clue about building against the thermal, snow load, seismic,

drainage, and other extraordinary stresses mountain conditions put on

buildings. And then the massive piles of winter snow sit around all

spring and infiltrate these already-porous buildings as they melt. It

comes down off the roof into the walls, and seeps in around the

foundations. As the weather warms up toward summer, all that wet wood

and wallboard becomes a marvelous ready-made incubator for any spore

that finds a home in it.

(Even if contractors had clue, they'd usually do whatever they could

to avoid spending the money to do the job right. My stepdad spent 40

years working as an architect in Mammoth and Tahoe, and his run-ins

with builders around these issues were frequent, intense, and

occasionally involved courts. They thought he was anal; but his

buildings didn't collapse in 100-year storms, didn't shake apart in

quakes, drained properly, and didn't leak.)

In later years, I also proved very reactive to almost all the closed-

up glass office buildings I worked in in Silicon Valley, which are

notorious for recycling mold through their climate control systems.

As soon as I got back outside in the fresh air and slept it off for a

while, though, I was usually fine. But it's a big part of the reason

I had to stop working outside the house.

Sara

who tested very allergic to black mold in 2002

[Guest guest]

Sara,

Funny you should mention the Peppermill. That is exactly where we all had

dinner with the waterfall just in front of us.

But I live in Las Vegas and it has plenty of toxic mold. The airport is

horrible, because of the carpets. I mentioned the two doctors' buildings.

One of them I learned later had a massive flood one weekend with the whole

ground floor floating. And then there is the swimming pool with a moldy wall

between the men's and women's dressing room.

All old books are contaminated. I was at a conference a couple of months ago

and picked up a copy of a book for sale. I guess the seller had kept it in a

box a few months. As soon as I opened the book I could smell the mold plume

floating into my face. Now I don't smell this at Borders with new books.

In general, yes, the air in the desert is okay, but you can't assume that

homes are not moldy just because our bathrooms never need mold treatment.

a

[Guest guest]

On Jul 15, 2006, at 12:57 PM, a Carnes wrote:

> Sara,

>

> Funny you should mention the Peppermill. That is exactly where we

> all had

> dinner with the waterfall just in front of us.

You didn't have to name the place. You just had to say " casino in

Reno, " and I knew exactly where you were.

> But I live in Las Vegas and it has plenty of toxic mold. The

> airport is

> horrible, because of the carpets. I mentioned the two doctors'

> buildings.

> One of them I learned later had a massive flood one weekend with

> the whole

> ground floor floating. And then there is the swimming pool with a

> moldy wall

> between the men's and women's dressing room.

Bad construction, as I've said, will create ideal mold conditions

even in the middle of deserts. Closed-up walls and water leaks are a

bad combo, no matter where you find them.

But creating these places is a lot harder -- and avoiding them much

easier -- in someplace like Minden, Bishop, or Reno than, say, in the

Pacific Northwest, where mold is an integral part of the natural

ecosystem, and grows literally on every rock and tree. They're even

quite a bit better than Incline, South Tahoe, or Mammoth, which

marinate in seeping snowmelt several months a year.

> In general, yes, the air in the desert is okay, but you can't

> assume that

> homes are not moldy just because our bathrooms never need mold

> treatment.

I don't think I ever said that -- in fact, I noted that my

stepmother's house in Bishop is Mold Central, because she's got

decades-old unresolved water leaks in her bathroom walls.

I did say that it's far less of a problem in the Great Basin deserts

(that is: everything between the Sierra and the Rockies) than it is

in more humid parts of the world. That's why you find a lot of mold-

sensitive people picking up and moving to Nevada, Arizona, Utah, and

other arid states. It seems possible to me that I'm sensitive to

molds specifically because I didn't grow up around them, and my

immune system never learned to cope.

Sara

[Guest guest]

Mercuria wrote:

> You didn't have to name the place. You just had to say " casino in

> Reno, " and I knew exactly where you were.

> But creating these places is a lot harder -- and avoiding them

much easier -- in someplace like Minden, Bishop, or Reno than, say,

in the Pacific Northwest, where mold is an integral part of the

natural ecosystem, and grows literally on every rock and tree.

They're even quite a bit better than Incline, South Tahoe, or

Mammoth, which marinate in seeping snowmelt several months a year.

> Sara

Another member of the original Incline Cohort, Bruce M. told me

that the El Dorado slams him. His " significant other " works there

and the place was making her so ill that she feared becoming too

disabled to keep working.

Minden is where the moldy house was that dropped my doctor friend

and forced me to take radical action to evacuate her.

Until she could no longer walk, she had the conviction that the

illness was self limiting, and would not progress to that extent.

Many people cling to that hope until it is too late.

Minden is so full of mold that avoidance is literally impossible

there. It is a very bad place.

You cannot predict where this mold will be based on geography or

climate.

-

[Guest guest]

Hi , and All

I'm a little pooped from my trip to Nevada this weekend, but wanted to update

the group a bit.

Truckee high school was a mess . . . could see the damage from mold and

smelled it in the bus garages. Poor construction . . . a flat roof in the

Sierras???? The veins in the palms of my hands got larger and bluer after a few

minutes.

Minden was harder to detect the mold. I think the weather was too nice.

Carson Valley Inn Casino was terrible but not sure if it was the smoke or the

mold. Probably both.

My husband has been in construction for 30 years and believed it was

definitely due to poor construction and that almost any older building is most

likely to have mold, too. He does not believe it can just naturally occur.

I am going to bed early . . may update more later.

Best wishes, Sue T

a Carnes <pj7@...> wrote:

Sara,

Funny you should mention the Peppermill. That is exactly where we all had

dinner with the waterfall just in front of us.

But I live in Las Vegas and it has plenty of toxic mold. The airport is

horrible, because of the carpets. I mentioned the two doctors' buildings.

One of them I learned later had a massive flood one weekend with the whole

ground floor floating. And then there is the swimming pool with a moldy wall

between the men's and women's dressing room.

All old books are contaminated. I was at a conference a couple of months ago

and picked up a copy of a book for sale. I guess the seller had kept it in a

box a few months. As soon as I opened the book I could smell the mold plume

floating into my face. Now I don't smell this at Borders with new books.

In general, yes, the air in the desert is okay, but you can't assume that

homes are not moldy just because our bathrooms never need mold treatment.

a

[Guest guest]

Sue T wrote:

> Truckee high school was a mess . . . could see the damage from

mold and smelled it in the bus garages. Poor construction . . . a flat

roof in the Sierras???? The veins in the palms of my hands got larger

and bluer after a few minutes.

>

Yes. Hang out long enough and the other symptoms start to set in.

Thanks to being hypersensitive, I've spent years accompanying people

into such places and watching them fall apart.

Quite a few implicated mold until their doctors told them this was

impossible.

A 1998 Cornel study found that same type of mold in approximately one

out of every five large buildings.

If it has that type of effect on CFSers, and it is common enough to

be fairly unavoidable, doesn't it seem likely that it is a greater

problem than people give it credit for?

Don't you find it a little strange that the location for the

initiation of " CFS " has a visible effect on you, and the source of the

effect has remained uninvestigated all these years?

At least, until Dr Shoemaker decided that my story was worth hearing.

-

[Guest guest]

I just wanted to drag this message back out because this is the

first time someone from this group actually went to " the spot " and

saw " the effect " .

Now there's a funny little story about the CVI " Carson Valley Inn " .

The old original section of the hotel was undergoing major

reconstruction. Work had been going on for a year or more as they

tore into walls and ripped out faulty sections, and just when it

looked like they were finally to the point of reconstruction - a

mysterious fire broke out in a place where the electricity and gas

had long been cut off. The place was then completely destroyed and

then was rebuilt from the ground up.

If you talk to anyone in Minden/Gardnerville about that fire, they

just shake their heads. It was just a little " too convenient " .

-

Sue T <morabshadow@...> wrote:

>

> Hi , and All

>

> I'm a little pooped from my trip to Nevada this weekend, but

wanted to update the group a bit.

>

> Truckee high school was a mess . . . could see the damage from

mold and smelled it in the bus garages. Poor construction . . . a

flat roof in the Sierras???? The veins in the palms of my hands got

larger and bluer after a few minutes.

>

> Minden was harder to detect the mold. I think the weather was

too nice. Carson Valley Inn Casino was terrible but not sure if it

was the smoke or the mold. Probably both.

>

> My husband has been in construction for 30 years and believed it

was definitely due to poor construction and that almost any older

building is most likely to have mold, too. He does not believe it

can just naturally occur.

>

> I am going to bed early . . may update more later.

>

> Best wishes, Sue T