Kurt: Salt/C

[Guest guest]

It amused me.... that's MY kind of Salt/C.....<g>.....

Kendra

On 7/10/06, foxhillers@... <foxhillers@...> wrote:

> Kirt

>

> I hope to amuse you with my version of Salt/C.

>

> Orange juice and salty potato chips fairly close to bedtime.

>

> I've " needed " this combo for quite some years now.

>

> This really helps me although not as dramatically as it has helped you.

> Other supplements and functional foods set the platform for my oj and chips

to

> be effective.

>

> mjh

> " The Basil Book "

> _http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/_ (http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/)

[Guest guest]

But, a, chloride is included in Recup bound to a different mineral, so

it is there, too.

mjh

" The Basil Book "

http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/

[Guest guest]

Sara,

I am not the expert on salt/C but one thing I do know - the sodium in

Recuperation is sodium citrate, not sodium chloride. This salt acts in the

body in a somewhat different way from sodium chloride. I haven't started

salt/c yet, but I am taking 2 grams of vitamin C a day. I will be interested

to read what Kurt replies to your question. Meanwhile Mark London has

written an excellent summary of how Recuperation may help us. Here is the

link.

http://web.mit.edu/london/www/RRR.htm

I am pasting just a bit of the information from that article here. It has

some key points for SOME of us, namely increases blood volume, decreases

insulin resistance, lowers angiotensin 2 levels, and lowers cortisol levels

- all of which apply to me.

Mark writes:

" Note that the form of sodium contained in this supplement, is sodium

citrate, not sodium chloride. It

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=8110432 & query_hl=105 & itool=pubmed_docsum> is sodium

chloride that increases blood pressure in salt sensitive people, not sodium

citrate. Other than that, sodium chloride and sodium citrate appear to have

similar effects. Sodium citrate, however, has a salty sour taste, which is

why sodium chloride is the more common additive in foods.

Sodium intake decreases the production of angiotensin II and aldosterone.

Angiotensin II and aldosterone both help to control the body's ratio of

sodium to potassium. Increasing one's sodium intake, will cause a decrease

in the production of angiotensin II and aldosterone, leading to increased

sodium excretion and water retention. A

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=9680497 & query_hl=91 & itool=pubmed_docsum> study using

4000mg of sodium on normal subjects demonstrated that significant decreases

in angiotensin II and aldosterone can occur. This study also demonstrated

one of the other known effects of sodium, which is that it can lower the

activity of the sympathetic nervous system, resulting in decreased urinary

and plasma noradrenaline. Since some studies have shown that the

sympathetic

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=15361323 & query_hl=14 & itool=pubmed_docsum> nervous system

is in a hyperactive state in fibromyalgia, and that injections of

noradrenaline causes pain, we wonder whether the reduction of noradrenaline

from increased sodium intake, could be significant enough to have an effect

on fibromyalgia pain.

Another effect of increasing sodium intake, is a decrease of insulin

resistance. This may be due to the reduction of angiotensin II, as

angiotensin II is known to increase insulin resistance Moderate

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=10371376 & query_hl=94 & itool=pubmed_docsum> salt

restriction has been shown to aggravate both systemic and vascular insulin

resistance. One consequence of this, is that sodium intake increases

insulin's vasodilatory effects, resulting in improved blood flow in limbs.

If insulin resistance is decreased by sodium intake, then this might lead to

increased intracellular magnesium levels, as insulin

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=8861135 & query_hl=20 & itool=pubmed_docsum> resistance is

known to depress cellular levels of magnesium. Cytokines, hormones, and

neurochemicals, all influence the intracellular levels of minerals. Taking

the best absorbable mineral supplement, is only going to be of marginal

help, if other factors are interfering with the intracellular levels.

Another

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=12970284 & query_hl=2 & itool=pubmed_docsum> interesting

effect from increased sodium intake is increased cortisol elimination,

resulting in lower plasma cortisol levels.

One of the more important effects of increased sodium intake for people with

CFS and fibromyalgia, may be the increase in blood volume that can occur.

This can be of help for orthostatic disorders and low blood volume, that

lead to symptoms such as dizziness. Such problems often occur in people

with CFS and fibromyalgia. It

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=14981050 & query_hl=148 & itool=pubmed_docsum> is well known

that increasing sodium intake helps these conditions. For many years,

doctors treating CFS and fibromyalgia patients have been recommending salt

as a remedy. Regarding

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=9428447 & query_hl=48 & itool=pubmed_docsum> this, it's

possible that potassium may be able to somewhat offset this effect from

sodium. We think then, perhaps that it's a good thing that this supplement

doesn't contain a high amount of potassium. "

a Carnes

[Guest guest]

On Jul 11, 2006, at 5:51 AM, a Carnes wrote:

> Sara,

>

> I am not the expert on salt/C but one thing I do know - the sodium in

> Recuperation is sodium citrate, not sodium chloride. This salt acts

> in the

> body in a somewhat different way from sodium chloride. I haven't

> started

> salt/c yet, but I am taking 2 grams of vitamin C a day. I will be

> interested

> to read what Kurt replies to your question. Meanwhile Mark London has

> written an excellent summary of how Recuperation may help us. Here

> is the

> link.

Thanks. I found this and read it before I even ordered my first

package of Recup. It encouraged me to go ahead with it -- and I'm

starting to be happy that I did.

Sara

[Guest guest]

Sara,

Recup is not a good substitute for salt/c but it can be an adjunct. I

use it sometimes, usually when I have a lot of muscle tension. For a

time I used Recup daily but found that salt/c was more beneficial

overall. However, there are things Recup does that salt/c does not, so

I still use both.

Also, Recup is expensive and salt/c is cheap. So when I am having a lot

of tension or nerve or even heart symptoms, I use up to 1 sachet daily

of Recup, and lower my salt/c dose by about 1g. I take the Recup at

least 1 hour away from any salt/c dose.

Incidentally, when I am on the higher doses of salt/c I do not seem to

need the Recup as much. I use Nutricology buffered C for half of my C

dose, and that includes potassium, magnesium and calcium, so I do get

all the electrolytes (of course the sodium is in the salt).

--Kurt

Re: Kurt: Salt/C

On Jul 10, 2006, at 8:39 PM, Kurt R wrote:

> Sounds like a craving for Salt/C. Why not try the real thing? You

> are

> just getting a micro-dose, imagine how much it might help you if

> you 'go

> for it.'

>

> One person on salt/c has totally reversed a 35 year case of Lyme/

> CFS in

> just over a year. He had lost his sense of taste early in life and

> has

> had even that return and it is a new world. He takes 20g daily of

> salt

> and C.

Kurt: I've been on Recup for about six weeks now, and am

transitioning from 1 to 2 sachets/day.

Is Recup a good basis for a salt/C regime? It seems like I could

simply start taking 1g of Ester-C along with each dose of Recup, and

I'd be on my way. Would that work?

If I got to the point where I was taking 4-5 salt doses a day, should

they ALL be Recup, or should I use Recup for a few doses, and maybe

just Krystal salt for the rest?

Please advise. You seem to have done a LOT of research on this, and

your site has impressive amounts of info.

Sara

[Guest guest]

Kurt,

Go to Dr. Cheney's site. There is a recipe for Recup/Gookinaid, so

you can make it yourself for a lot less.

Sue

>

> Sara,

>

> Recup is not a good substitute for salt/c but it can be an adjunct. I

> use it sometimes, usually when I have a lot of muscle tension. For a

> time I used Recup daily but found that salt/c was more beneficial

> overall. However, there are things Recup does that salt/c does not, so

> I still use both.

>

> Also, Recup is expensive and salt/c is cheap. So when I am having a

lot of tension or nerve or even heart symptoms, I use up to 1 sachet

daily of Recup, and lower my salt/c dose by about 1g. I take the

Recup at least 1 hour away from any salt/c dose.

>

> Incidentally, when I am on the higher doses of salt/c I do not seem

to need the Recup as much. I use Nutricology buffered C for half of

my C dose, and that includes potassium, magnesium and calcium, so I do get

all the electrolytes (of course the sodium is in the salt).

>

> --Kurt

[Guest guest]

Let us know how you do with the recuperation, I actually heard alot of

good things about it. It doent seem like it would be something that

would help alot. But i have heard alot of people say that it does. Im

getting tempted to try some myself.

jim driscoll

ChronicFatigueTreatments

<http://www.chronicfatiguetreatments.com/forums/>

>

> > Sara,

> >

> > I am not the expert on salt/C but one thing I do know - the sodium

in

> > Recuperation is sodium citrate, not sodium chloride. This salt acts

> > in the

> > body in a somewhat different way from sodium chloride. I haven't

> > started

> > salt/c yet, but I am taking 2 grams of vitamin C a day. I will be

> > interested

> > to read what Kurt replies to your question. Meanwhile Mark London

has

> > written an excellent summary of how Recuperation may help us. Here

> > is the

> > link.

>

> Thanks. I found this and read it before I even ordered my first

> package of Recup. It encouraged me to go ahead with it -- and I'm

> starting to be happy that I did.

>

> Sara

>

[Guest guest]

a

THat's where I am fortunate as I have my own well, so no chlorine just the

pure stuff Ma Nature provides with minerals like Ca and Mg, too.

mjh

" The Basil Book "

http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/

[Guest guest]

Yes, and chloride is in most tap water. But you should read the Mark London

summary. I am no expert on this. He makes some good points for sodium

citrate being perhaps the key ingredient.

a

[Guest guest]

NJH,

That is why I drink only bottled water - no chlorine and no fluoride. But,

again, if we are talking about what makes Recuperation effective, it is not

the lack or presence of chlorine. It is probably the presence of sodium

citrate, assuming Recuperation is good for something.

a

[Guest guest]

Amen, sister, amen!!!

mjh

" The Basil Book "

_http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/_ (http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/)

_Re: Kurt: Salt/C _

(/message/101496;_ylc=X3oDMTJxNXR\

nNTVxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzkxNTc0BGdycHNwSWQDMTYwMD

A2MTY0NQRtc2dJZAMxMDE0OTYEc2VjA2Rtc2cEc2xrA3Ztc2cEc3RpbWUDMTE1MjczMDkyMA--)

Posted by: " H. Wish " _orchidwish@... _

(mailto:orchidwish@...?Subject= Re:%20Kurt:%20%20Salt/C) _orchidwish _

(orchidwish)

Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:01 pm (PST)

I don't understand the concern as to whether the sodium is citrate or

chloride. As I understand chemistry, ions are ions and whatever they

are combined with is simply to balance the electical charge - they

ions enter your body as isolated ions of sodium, citrate, chloride,

etc., and not as a joined 'complex' that your body uses as a compound

or unit. . .

[Guest guest]

Kurt, just read the link. The reason this link is significant is precisely

because Alfred Blasi's reason as to why Recup works doesn't really make

sense, yet Recup does work. I think Mark's reasoning about the sodium

citrate makes a lot more sense. But read it yourself.

http://web.mit.edu/london/www/RRR.htm

a

[Guest guest]

I don't understand the concern as to whether the sodium is citrate or

chloride. As I understand chemistry, ions are ions and whatever they

are combined with is simply to balance the electical charge - they

ions enter your body as isolated ions of sodium, citrate, chloride,

etc., and not as a joined 'complex' that your body uses as a compound

or unit. . .

[Guest guest]

Wish wrote:

I don't understand the concern as to whether the sodium is citrate or

chloride. As I understand chemistry, ions are ions and whatever they

are combined with is simply to balance the electical charge - they

ions enter your body as isolated ions of sodium, citrate, chloride,

etc., and not as a joined 'complex' that your body uses as a compound

or unit. . .

,

Read Mark's article. There is a great deal of difference, and it may be all

the difference. I would be interested in your thoughts once you read this

article.

a

http://web.mit.edu/london/www/RRR.htm

Recuperat-ion. Is it Worth it's Salt?

Recuperat-ion is a mineral supplement for fibromyalgia. It's inventor has

claimed that he cured his fibromyalgia with it. Is there any reason why

this supplement would work better, or differently, than other mineral

supplements? Let's look at the minerals it contains: (Note: There is a

sugar sweetened version that contains lower amounts of these minerals).

Mineral

Amount per Packet

Total per day (4 packets)

%RDA (4 packets)

Sodium (Sodium Citrate)

740 mg

2960 mg

128%

Potassium (Potassium Chloride)

200 mg

800 mg

17%

Magnesium (Magnesium Carbonate)

15 mg

60 mg

15%

Calcium (Calcium Phosphate)

15 mg

60 mg

6%

Even if one used 4 packets a day of this supplement, one would still not

obtain a significant amount of magnesium or calcium,. The RDA for calcium

is 1000mg, so the amount of calcium in this supplement is especially small.

The RDA for magnesium is 400mg. So with respect to the RDA, there is

relatively more magnesium than calcium. However, many alternative doctors

and magnesium researchers believe that the RDA for magnesium is too low.

This is why many some people recommend taking significantly more magnesium

than the RDA. A

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=11847944 & query_hl=29 & itool=pubmed_docsum> high amount of

magnesium intake, using a well absorbed form, is possibly the key to

properly using magnesium to treat conditions. A small amount of magnesium,

is unlikely to do much, unless your intake is very low to begin with, which

is the case for the average western diet.

The amount of potassium in this supplement may seem like a lot. But the

recommended daily amount of potassium for adults is 4700mg. The 800mg of

potassium which you get in 4 packets of this supplement, is only about 1/6

the recommended daily amount. Additionally, a diet with a good amount of

vegetables and fruits, can readily reach or exceed the daily recommended

amount. (A medium sized banana contains about 450mg.)

On the other hand, the amount of sodium in these packets is very

significant. The recommended daily amount for the average person is 2300mg.

For people with salt sensitive hypertension, the recommended daily amount is

only 1500mg. 4 packets of this supplement by itself, easily exceeds the

daily recommended amount for the average person. Add in the amount of

sodium from one's diet, and the total will be even greater.

Note that the form of sodium contained in this supplement, is sodium

citrate, not sodium chloride. It

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=8110432 & query_hl=105 & itool=pubmed_docsum> is sodium

chloride that increases blood pressure in salt sensitive people, not sodium

citrate. Other than that, sodium chloride and sodium citrate appear to have

similar effects. Sodium citrate, however, has a salty sour taste, which is

why sodium chloride is the more common additive in foods.

Sodium intake decreases the production of angiotensin II and aldosterone.

Angiotensin II and aldosterone both help to control the body's ratio of

sodium to potassium. Increasing one's sodium intake, will cause a decrease

in the production of angiotensin II and aldosterone, leading to increased

sodium excretion and water retention. A

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=9680497 & query_hl=91 & itool=pubmed_docsum> study using

4000mg of sodium on normal subjects demonstrated that significant decreases

in angiotensin II and aldosterone can occur. This study also demonstrated

one of the other known effects of sodium, which is that it can lower the

activity of the sympathetic nervous system, resulting in decreased urinary

and plasma noradrenaline. Since some studies have shown that the

sympathetic

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=15361323 & query_hl=14 & itool=pubmed_docsum> nervous system

is in a hyperactive state in fibromyalgia, and that injections of

noradrenaline causes pain, we wonder whether the reduction of noradrenaline

from increased sodium intake, could be significant enough to have an effect

on fibromyalgia pain.

Another effect of increasing sodium intake, is a decrease of insulin

resistance. This may be due to the reduction of angiotensin II, as

angiotensin II is known to increase insulin resistance Moderate

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=10371376 & query_hl=94 & itool=pubmed_docsum> salt

restriction has been shown to aggravate both systemic and vascular insulin

resistance. One consequence of this, is that sodium intake increases

insulin's vasodilatory effects, resulting in improved blood flow in limbs.

If insulin resistance is decreased by sodium intake, then this might lead to

increased intracellular magnesium levels, as insulin

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=8861135 & query_hl=20 & itool=pubmed_docsum> resistance is

known to depress cellular levels of magnesium. Cytokines, hormones, and

neurochemicals, all influence the intracellular levels of minerals. Taking

the best absorbable mineral supplement, is only going to be of marginal

help, if other factors are interfering with the intracellular levels.

Another

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=12970284 & query_hl=2 & itool=pubmed_docsum> interesting

effect from increased sodium intake is increased cortisol elimination,

resulting in lower plasma cortisol levels.

One of the more important effects of increased sodium intake for people with

CFS and fibromyalgia, may be the increase in blood volume that can occur.

This can be of help for orthostatic disorders and low blood volume, that

lead to symptoms such as dizziness. Such problems often occur in people

with CFS and fibromyalgia. It

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=14981050 & query_hl=148 & itool=pubmed_docsum> is well known

that increasing sodium intake helps these conditions. For many years,

doctors treating CFS and fibromyalgia patients have been recommending salt

as a remedy. Regarding

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=9428447 & query_hl=48 & itool=pubmed_docsum> this, it's

possible that potassium may be able to somewhat offset this effect from

sodium. We think then, perhaps that it's a good thing that this supplement

doesn't contain a high amount of potassium.

Another possibly important effect from increased sodium intake, is the

resulting decrease in angiotensin II. Angiotensin II has both inflammatory

and oxidative properties, which can cause or influence a host of problems.

Drugs that block or lower angiotensin II can have numerous benefits for many

different conditions, with new uses seemingly being discovered on a daily

basis. The elevation of angiotensin II which results from salt

restriction, is one of the reasons why some people believe that sodium

restriction should not be recommended, unless there is a clear reason for

it. The increase in angiotensin II may be one of the reasons that one

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=16490476 & query_hl=95 & itool=pubmed_docsum> study not only

didn't find any decreased risk of mortality from a low sodium diet, but

actually found an increased risk of moratlity in many of the studied groups.

Even though Recuperat-ion contains very low amounts of calcium and

magnesium, it may still have a significant effect on their balances. Low

sodium intake increases aldosterone. Excess

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=15710759 & itool=pubmed_Abstract> aldosterone increases

urinary excretion of magnesium and calcium. And

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=12953799 & query_hl=4 & itool=pubmed_docsum> a low salt diet,

which increases aldosterone absorption, has been shown to increase urinary

magnesium and calcium.

However, it's not clear if manipulating aldosterone via salt intake, can

have much influence on mineral balance. This is mainly due to the fact that

sodium itself has it's own direct effects on mineral retention. It's been

well documented that salt increases urinary calcium. However, this applies

to salt, and not to all forms of sodium. Sodium citrate has the opposite

effect, as it decreases urinary calcium, improving calcium balance. This

occurs, due to the fact that the PH of urine affects calcium absorption.

Acidic urine increases urinary calcium. Acidic urine can occur due to a

high protein diet, and this will increase urinary calcium. However, in a

study on such a diet, it

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve & db=pubmed & list_u

ids=6320628 & dopt=Abstract> was found that sodium bicarbonate alkalinized

the urine, and reversed the urinary calcium loss. Sodium

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=1592448 & query_hl=61 & itool=pubmed_Docsum> citrate has

similar effects on PH, and it can also reduce urinary calcium.

Sodium citrate may also be able to affect urinary magnesium via a similar

effect, as

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=2548071 & query_hl=4 & itool=pubmed_docsum> urinary magnesium

loss in acidosis conditions has been corrected by sodium bicarbonate. This

may be one of the reasons why one

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=15637232 & query_hl=9 & itool=pubmed_docsum> study has shown

that the magnesium balance for the average person is significantly

coorelated to calcium balance, but not to magnesium intake. This doesn't

mean that magnesium supplementation doesn't have an effect. Hundreds of

studies on magnesium supplementation have proven that it can have an effect

on magnesium status. But many of the factors that affect calcium balance,

such as vitamin D and urinary PH, not only affect calcium retention, but

also magnesium. And so perhaps for the average person with the average

western diet, with low magnesium content, that

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed & cmd=Retrieve & list_u

ids=1496118 & Dopt=Citation> an effect that improves magnesium retention, may

be able to significantly change one's magnesium status.

In any event, we suspect that some of Recuperat-ion's beneficial effects,

may be due to the alkalinizing property of sodium citrate, which will then

increase calcium and magnesium retention.

As an aside, it <http://www.alfredblasi.net/eng/experiencia/ingles.HTM>

should be noted that the person who created Recuperat-ion, and who claims to

have cured his fibromyalgia with this supplement, was also diagnosed with

Ankylosing Spondylitis. Ankylosing Spondylitis is a form of chronic

inflammation of the spine and the sacroiliac joints. Coexisting conditions

such as this, are commonly found with fibromyalgia. However, many times in

such cases, the fibromyalgia is actually caused by the other condition. In

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=7701393 & query_hl=12 & itool=pubmed_docsum> such situations,

fibromyalgia is secondary to the other condition, and this " secondary

fibromyalgia " is often harder to treat than primary fibromyalgia. This is

because, unless the primary condition is treated, it will continue to

aggravate the fibromyalgia symptoms. However sometimes, if the primary

condition is properly treated, the fibromyalgia symptoms will also subside.

Low

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=16172800 & query_hl=16 & itool=pubmed_docsum> Vitamin D

levels have been found to coorelate with Ankylosing Spondylitis disease

activity. In some people with this disease, low 1.25 vitamin D3 and PTH

levels occur, and this is associated with osteporosis and increased

inflammation. While researchers are unclear why this occurs, it would seem

that using a supplement that increases calcium retention, would help to

treat this condition. A

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=15971429 & query_hl=14 & itool=pubmed_docsum> further

indication that calcium excretion or urinary PH is abnormal in Ankylosing

Spondylitis, is that kidneys stones are much more common in people with this

condition. Citrate products are commonly recommended to reduce the

frequency of kidney stones.

One could also speculate that the

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=A

bstract & list_uids=16596461 & query_hl=56 & itool=pubmed_docsum> low PTH levels

seen in Ankylosing Spondylitis may be due to a magnesium deficiency, which

is known to blunt PTH and cause low vitamin D. So if Recuperat-ion can

improve the magnesium balance, then it might improve the low PTH which is

seen in Ankylosing Spondylitis. Thus, it's possible to speculate that this

supplement's main effect might have been to directly treat the Ankylosing

Spondylitis in the inventor of this supplement, and that it only indirectly

was treating the fibromyalgia. This is especially possible, given that this

person notes that the supplement also relieved his Ankylosing Spondylitis

symptoms. Fibromyalgia does not cause Ankylosing Spondylitis, so there

should not be any reason why treating fibromyalgia, would also treat

Ankylosing Spondylitis.

Regardless of why this person was helped by his supplement, the medical

literature definitely does document several effects from sodium citrate

intake, that may be helpful in treating fibromyalgia, CFS, and possible

other chronic conditions. IMHO, this is more likely the main reason why it

helps.

Mark London

[Guest guest]

Yes ,but Ratio or amount of chloride to citrate which is entering the

blood stream is important.Chloride is important in cell metabolism.

bw

Nil

Re: Kurt: Salt/C

>I don't understand the concern as to whether the sodium is citrate or

> chloride. As I understand chemistry, ions are ions and whatever they

> are combined with is simply to balance the electical charge - they

> ions enter your body as isolated ions of sodium, citrate, chloride,

> etc., and not as a joined 'complex' that your body uses as a compound

> or unit. . .

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

a wrote:

Read Mark's article. There is a great deal of difference, and it may be all

the difference. I would be interested in your thoughts once you read this

article.

I've read Mark London's article. Several times in fact. I know he

makes the statement that sodium citrate is handled differently by the

body than sodium chloride, but I see no support for that anywhere. My

Recup contains sodium chloride as well and in fact potassium chloride

as well. Possibly we need citrate, but as ions, the sodium is sodium

and only sodium, the potassium is potassium and only potassium, the

chloride is chloride and only chloride and the citrate is citrate and

only citrate. If we need citrate that is an entirely different matter

from whether we need the metal ions. That is an amino acid question.

Rich has already suggested that some of the protocols may work on our

digestion because people need more chloride, and that's helpful, but

as long as the element or acid comes in as an ion and not as a bound

compound, it doesn't matter what form it entered as an 'ingredient'.

I'm talking elementary chemistry so far as I know it.

[Guest guest]

, let me see if I understand what you are saying. You are saying

that the contents of Recuperation are absorbed by the gut as separate

ions, so it doesn't matter that the sodium is bound to citrate rather

than to chloride, because there is potassium chloride in the product

anyway.

Do you think there is no basis for Mark's claim that sodium chloride

raises blood pressure while sodium citrate does not?

Also, here are the quotes he makes about other effects of sodium

citrate:

" However, it's not clear if manipulating aldosterone via salt intake,

can have much influence on mineral balance. This is mainly due to

the fact that sodium itself has it's own direct effects on mineral

retention. It's been well documented that salt increases urinary

calcium. However, this applies to salt, and not to all forms of

sodium. Sodium citrate has the opposite effect, as it decreases

urinary calcium, improving calcium balance. This occurs, due to the

fact that the PH of urine affects calcium absorption. Acidic urine

increases urinary calcium. Acidic urine can occur due to a high

protein diet, and this will increase urinary calcium. However, in a

study on such a diet, it was found that sodium bicarbonate

alkalinized the urine, and reversed the urinary calcium loss. Sodium

citrate has similar effects on PH, and it can also reduce urinary

calcium.

Sodium citrate may also be able to affect urinary magnesium via a

similar effect, as urinary magnesium loss in acidosis conditions has

been corrected by sodium bicarbonate. This may be one of the reasons

why one study has shown that the magnesium balance for the average

person is significantly coorelated to calcium balance, but not to

magnesium intake. This doesn't mean that magnesium supplementation

doesn't have an effect. Hundreds of studies on magnesium

supplementation have proven that it can have an effect on magnesium

status. But many of the factors that affect calcium balance, such as

vitamin D and urinary PH, not only affect calcium retention, but also

magnesium. And so perhaps for the average person with the average

western diet, with low magnesium content, that an effect that

improves magnesium retention, may be able to significantly change

one's magnesium status.

In any event, we suspect that some of Recuperat-ion's beneficial

effects, may be due to the alkalinizing property of sodium citrate,

which will then increase calcium and magnesium retention. "

If the combination in Recup did nothing but raise magnesium levels

that would be a huge step forward in most cfs and fms patients'

health.

Mark does give links to several of his points. I have not read them.

Have you? You said that you found no basis for his points. It might

be worth both of us reading his links.

I am not a chemist. However, if you go to the link for Mark's article

you will see that he has an email address from MIT. Perhaps you might

be interested to email him and ask him questions.

a Carnes

>

> a wrote:

> Read Mark's article. There is a great deal of difference, and it

may be all

> the difference. I would be interested in your thoughts once you

read this

> article.

> I've read Mark London's article. Several times in fact. I know he

> makes the statement that sodium citrate is handled differently by

the

> body than sodium chloride, but I see no support for that anywhere.

My

> Recup contains sodium chloride as well and in fact potassium

chloride

> as well. Possibly we need citrate, but as ions, the sodium is

sodium

> and only sodium, the potassium is potassium and only potassium, the

> chloride is chloride and only chloride and the citrate is citrate

and

> only citrate. If we need citrate that is an entirely different

matter

> from whether we need the metal ions. That is an amino acid

question.

> Rich has already suggested that some of the protocols may work on

our

> digestion because people need more chloride, and that's helpful,

but

> as long as the element or acid comes in as an ion and not as a

bound

> compound, it doesn't matter what form it entered as

an 'ingredient'.

> I'm talking elementary chemistry so far as I know it.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, a, citrate taken in any form may be alkalinizing - I've

heard a recommendation to eat citrus fruits to alkalinize your body,

even though tat is counterintuitive since citrus fruits tend to be

sour. But an ion is an ion and will be absorbed or not separate from

its anion. One could as easily have salts of sodium chloride and

potassium citrate and have precisely the same result as with sodium

citrate and potassium chloride. The only time it would make a

difference in actual absorbtion is if the gut were so far from normal

acidic/alkaline balance normal digestion did not take place, or if,

in the case of, say, magnesium oxide, calcium carbonate, various iron

compounds, etc., they were not ionized but bound or semi-bound

compounds. (That is why typically one is recommended to take chelated

minerals rather than some of the forms in which they appear as

natural, nonbiological minerals.)