Guest guest Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 " Doyon " <prd34@...> wrote: > > , > > Thanks for the Rich's article. I found it very informative. Please > provide links to any articles on SNPs that you feel preclude the fact > that microwaves are a causal factor in CFS and other Neuro Immune > Endocrine Disfunction Syndromes. > <> ***Well, by definition SNPs preclude EMs as causal factors to CFS, but you'll learn this as you read-up on the topic and I suggest starting with Pangborn and Bakers book, Autism: Effective Biological Treatments and Dr Amy Yasko' book, Genetic Bypass. ***You can also look at the archives over the last year here and particularly find the study's and PWCs Rich has addressed on the topic as they're quite telling. But both the archives and these two books will give you a good start and quickly take this nonstarter point you attempt make out of the equation, SNPs absolutely preclude EMs. Period. I have read Rich's poster session paper and I just have to say that > this in no way precludes microwave radiation as a causal factor in > glutathione depletion. ***The SNPs data plus the overview in glutathiones role in human biology certainly does, which was my point. On the contrary, the hypothesis that > microwaves are a causal factor in CFS fits right in with his theory > of glutathione depleteion. ***No it doesn't. The study of EMs and its hypothesized role in human biology, and particularly CFS, hasn't proved itself sufficient enough that he felt it should be included in his glutathione depletion hypothesis for CFS. I'm sure if some good data was there he would've have included it and you simply asserting that it fits doesn't make it so. I believe that Rich would concur with this statement. ***Well, he has already indicated to the contrary on this list to you more than once. May be you forgot or missed his points? > Did you actually read the quote I posted by Dr. Gerald Goldberg ***I must have skipped over it because you didn't address it to me or it didn't seem to respond to any of the questions I asked you. > _Consistently in the scientific literature has been noted that > animals and humans subjected to microwave radiation show decreased > levels of SOD, catalase, glutathione, CoQ10 along with evidence of > increased byproducts of oxidative stress to cell membranes, MDA._ ***Again, show the evidence that proves this is the causal link with the quantitative data to support it. You also have never explained how CFS peaked in occurrence, in ratio to the population, in the mid 1980s, having steadily dropped in occurrence since then(eg Dr Cheney's data made public) and this is well before the common use of cell-phones. ***Dr Cheney thought a more virulent microbe crossed the globe over a decades time that explained this peak, but shouldn't the number of cases for CFS be increasing given the now ubiquitous proliferation of EM devices like cell-phones? Why the disconnect, pardon the pun, in the numbers if EMs are causal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 , Do you or have you by any chance worked for the cell phone industry? Or maybe at least own some of their stock. The way you spin things is amazing. paul > > > > , > > > > Thanks for the Rich's article. I found it very informative. Please > > provide links to any articles on SNPs that you feel preclude the fact > > that microwaves are a causal factor in CFS and other Neuro Immune > > Endocrine Disfunction Syndromes. > > <> > > > > ***Well, by definition SNPs preclude EMs as causal factors to CFS, but you'll learn this as you read-up on the topic and I suggest starting with Pangborn and Bakers book, Autism: Effective Biological Treatments and Dr Amy Yasko' book, Genetic Bypass. > > > > ***You can also look at the archives over the last year here and particularly find the study's and PWCs Rich has addressed on the topic as they're quite telling. But both the archives and these two books will give you a good start and quickly take this nonstarter point you attempt make out of the equation, SNPs absolutely preclude EMs. Period. > > > > I have read Rich's poster session paper and I just have to say that > > this in no way precludes microwave radiation as a causal factor in > > glutathione depletion. > > > > ***The SNPs data plus the overview in glutathiones role in human biology certainly does, which was my point. > > > > On the contrary, the hypothesis that > > microwaves are a causal factor in CFS fits right in with his theory > > of glutathione depleteion. > > > > ***No it doesn't. The study of EMs and its hypothesized role in human biology, and particularly CFS, hasn't proved itself sufficient enough that he felt it should be included in his glutathione depletion hypothesis for CFS. I'm sure if some good data was there he would've have included it and you simply asserting that it fits doesn't make it so. > > > > I believe that Rich would concur with this statement. > > > > ***Well, he has already indicated to the contrary on this list to you more than once. May be you forgot or missed > his points? > > > > > Did you actually read the quote I posted by Dr. Gerald Goldberg > > > > ***I must have skipped over it because you didn't address it to me or it didn't seem to respond to any of the questions I asked you. > > > > > > _Consistently in the scientific literature has been noted that > > animals and humans subjected to microwave radiation show decreased > > levels of SOD, catalase, glutathione, CoQ10 along with evidence of > > increased byproducts of oxidative stress to cell membranes, MDA._ > > > > ***Again, show the evidence that proves this is the causal link with the quantitative data to support it. You > also have never explained how CFS peaked in occurrence, in ratio to the population, in the mid 1980s, having steadily dropped in occurrence since then(eg Dr Cheney's data made public) and this is well before the common use of cell-phones. > > > > ***Dr Cheney thought a more virulent microbe crossed the globe over a decades time that explained this peak, but shouldn't the number of cases for CFS be increasing given the now ubiquitous proliferation of EM devices like cell-phones? Why the disconnect, pardon the pun, in the numbers if EMs are causal? > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 , I think most of us would agree that the amount of EMFs around these days are excessive, and yet I think what is saying is it's just one more trigger among many. Metals, toxins, biotoxins, xenobiotics, pollution, stress, poor diet etc. For a small # of people it may be *the* factor, but for me, I know that mercury poisoning when I had my braces off and tons of fillings was #1, and that #2 were two tickbites years apart, inoculating me with some bad bugs that I'm convinced are probably bioweaponized anyway. > > > > > > , > > > > > > Thanks for the Rich's article. I found it very informative. > Please > > > provide links to any articles on SNPs that you feel preclude the > fact > > > that microwaves are a causal factor in CFS and other Neuro Immune > > > Endocrine Disfunction Syndromes. > > > <> > > > > > > > > ***Well, by definition SNPs preclude EMs as causal factors to CFS, > but you'll learn this as you read-up on the topic and I suggest > starting with Pangborn and Bakers book, Autism: Effective Biological > Treatments and Dr Amy Yasko' book, Genetic Bypass. > > > > > > > > ***You can also look at the archives over the last year here and > particularly find the study's and PWCs Rich has addressed on the > topic as they're quite telling. But both the archives and these two > books will give you a good start and quickly take this nonstarter > point you attempt make out of the equation, SNPs absolutely preclude > EMs. Period. > > > > > > > > I have read Rich's poster session paper and I just have to say that > > > this in no way precludes microwave radiation as a causal factor > in > > > glutathione depletion. > > > > > > > > ***The SNPs data plus the overview in glutathiones role in human > biology certainly does, which was my point. > > > > > > > > On the contrary, the hypothesis that > > > microwaves are a causal factor in CFS fits right in with his > theory > > > of glutathione depleteion. > > > > > > > > ***No it doesn't. The study of EMs and its hypothesized role in > human biology, and particularly CFS, hasn't proved itself sufficient > enough that he felt it should be included in his glutathione > depletion hypothesis for CFS. I'm sure if some good data was there > he would've have included it and you simply asserting that it fits > doesn't make it so. > > > > > > > > I believe that Rich would concur with this statement. > > > > > > > > ***Well, he has already indicated to the contrary on this list to > you more than once. May be you forgot or missed > > his points? > > > > > > > > > Did you actually read the quote I posted by Dr. Gerald Goldberg > > > > > > > > ***I must have skipped over it because you didn't address it to me > or it didn't seem to respond to any of the questions I asked you. > > > > > > > > > > > _Consistently in the scientific literature has been noted that > > > animals and humans subjected to microwave radiation show > decreased > > > levels of SOD, catalase, glutathione, CoQ10 along with evidence > of > > > increased byproducts of oxidative stress to cell membranes, MDA._ > > > > > > > > ***Again, show the evidence that proves this is the causal link > with the quantitative data to support it. You > > also have never explained how CFS peaked in occurrence, in ratio to > the population, in the mid 1980s, having steadily dropped in > occurrence since then(eg Dr Cheney's data made public) and this is > well before the common use of cell-phones. > > > > > > > > ***Dr Cheney thought a more virulent microbe crossed the globe over > a decades time that explained this peak, but shouldn't the number of > cases for CFS be increasing given the now ubiquitous proliferation of > EM devices like cell-phones? Why the disconnect, pardon the pun, in > the numbers if EMs are causal? > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Jill, That's funny. My take on it was that thinks it's not a trigger at all. I have recovered and I have to say that the most important factor in my recovery was getting out of the electrosmog. The second most important thing was doing the chelation. And then the Chinese medicine, vitamins, supplements, antioxidents, qigong etc. all played a role in my recovery. I don't know many people that have recovered but of the few people that I do know that have, a good majority of them got away from the electrosmog - and for the others this might have been a factor without them realizing it. paul > > > > > > > > , > > > > > > > > Thanks for the Rich's article. I found it very informative. > > Please > > > > provide links to any articles on SNPs that you feel preclude the > > fact > > > > that microwaves are a causal factor in CFS and other Neuro Immune > > > > Endocrine Disfunction Syndromes. > > > > <> > > > > > > > > > > > > ***Well, by definition SNPs preclude EMs as causal factors to CFS, > > but you'll learn this as you read-up on the topic and I suggest > > starting with Pangborn and Bakers book, Autism: Effective Biological > > Treatments and Dr Amy Yasko' book, Genetic Bypass. > > > > > > > > > > > > ***You can also look at the archives over the last year here and > > particularly find the study's and PWCs Rich has addressed on the > > topic as they're quite telling. But both the archives and these two > > books will give you a good start and quickly take this nonstarter > > point you attempt make out of the equation, SNPs absolutely preclude > > EMs. Period. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have read Rich's poster session paper and I just have to say that > > > > this in no way precludes microwave radiation as a causal factor > > in > > > > glutathione depletion. > > > > > > > > > > > > ***The SNPs data plus the overview in glutathiones role in human > > biology certainly does, which was my point. > > > > > > > > > > > > On the contrary, the hypothesis that > > > > microwaves are a causal factor in CFS fits right in with his > > theory > > > > of glutathione depleteion. > > > > > > > > > > > > ***No it doesn't. The study of EMs and its hypothesized role in > > human biology, and particularly CFS, hasn't proved itself sufficient > > enough that he felt it should be included in his glutathione > > depletion hypothesis for CFS. I'm sure if some good data was there > > he would've have included it and you simply asserting that it fits > > doesn't make it so. > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe that Rich would concur with this statement. > > > > > > > > > > > > ***Well, he has already indicated to the contrary on this list to > > you more than once. May be you forgot or missed > > > his points? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did you actually read the quote I posted by Dr. Gerald Goldberg > > > > > > > > > > > > ***I must have skipped over it because you didn't address it to me > > or it didn't seem to respond to any of the questions I asked you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _Consistently in the scientific literature has been noted that > > > > animals and humans subjected to microwave radiation show > > decreased > > > > levels of SOD, catalase, glutathione, CoQ10 along with evidence > > of > > > > increased byproducts of oxidative stress to cell membranes, MDA._ > > > > > > > > > > > > ***Again, show the evidence that proves this is the causal link > > with the quantitative data to support it. You > > > also have never explained how CFS peaked in occurrence, in ratio to > > the population, in the mid 1980s, having steadily dropped in > > occurrence since then(eg Dr Cheney's data made public) and this is > > well before the common use of cell-phones. > > > > > > > > > > > > ***Dr Cheney thought a more virulent microbe crossed the globe over > > a decades time that explained this peak, but shouldn't the number of > > cases for CFS be increasing given the now ubiquitous proliferation of > > EM devices like cell-phones? Why the disconnect, pardon the pun, in > > the numbers if EMs are causal? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 I'm glad you've recovered, and I also know wearing an EMF hat helped Kurt a lot. I think most of us are not majorly disabled by the EMF's, that's just a subjective sense. And besides, maybe some of us, me a primary one, do not want to leave their homes. I'd wither on the vine somewhere else. I love this city even though it's gotten more difficult with time. And power lines are a concern, in the suburbs even. Cellphones work everywhere--I was walking at Nyack Beach State Park on Monday, near the Palisades cliffs and the ocean, and I was able to take pictures and send them over the internet back home to my email. So where do you suggest I go and, I say this with a smile, ruin my life? Shall I isolate myself in a national forest or something? And live my days out isolated from humankind? That is really a rhetorical question. But in any case, I think it is a factor and so, I don't stand next to my microwave, and I'm careful about my cellphone. But I use a heating pad every night. I find it relaxes me. I'm sure it sends fields into my body that are not " healthy " . On the other hand, interesting new research this morning shows that heat actually blocks pain receptors and reduces pain just in the way that pharmaceuticals do. Not that I have pain persay, I just find lying on the heating pad very relaxing. > > > > > > > > > > , > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the Rich's article. I found it very informative. > > > Please > > > > > provide links to any articles on SNPs that you feel preclude the > > > fact > > > > > that microwaves are a causal factor in CFS and other Neuro Immune > > > > > Endocrine Disfunction Syndromes. > > > > > <> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ***Well, by definition SNPs preclude EMs as causal factors to CFS, > > > but you'll learn this as you read-up on the topic and I suggest > > > starting with Pangborn and Bakers book, Autism: Effective Biological > > > Treatments and Dr Amy Yasko' book, Genetic Bypass. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ***You can also look at the archives over the last year here and > > > particularly find the study's and PWCs Rich has addressed on the > > > topic as they're quite telling. But both the archives and these two > > > books will give you a good start and quickly take this nonstarter > > > point you attempt make out of the equation, SNPs absolutely preclude > > > EMs. Period. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have read Rich's poster session paper and I just have to say that > > > > > this in no way precludes microwave radiation as a causal factor > > > in > > > > > glutathione depletion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ***The SNPs data plus the overview in glutathiones role in human > > > biology certainly does, which was my point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the contrary, the hypothesis that > > > > > microwaves are a causal factor in CFS fits right in with his > > > theory > > > > > of glutathione depleteion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ***No it doesn't. The study of EMs and its hypothesized role in > > > human biology, and particularly CFS, hasn't proved itself sufficient > > > enough that he felt it should be included in his glutathione > > > depletion hypothesis for CFS. I'm sure if some good data was there > > > he would've have included it and you simply asserting that it fits > > > doesn't make it so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe that Rich would concur with this statement. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ***Well, he has already indicated to the contrary on this list to > > > you more than once. May be you forgot or missed > > > > his points? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did you actually read the quote I posted by Dr. Gerald Goldberg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ***I must have skipped over it because you didn't address it to me > > > or it didn't seem to respond to any of the questions I asked you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _Consistently in the scientific literature has been noted that > > > > > animals and humans subjected to microwave radiation show > > > decreased > > > > > levels of SOD, catalase, glutathione, CoQ10 along with evidence > > > of > > > > > increased byproducts of oxidative stress to cell membranes, MDA._ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ***Again, show the evidence that proves this is the causal link > > > with the quantitative data to support it. You > > > > also have never explained how CFS peaked in occurrence, in ratio to > > > the population, in the mid 1980s, having steadily dropped in > > > occurrence since then(eg Dr Cheney's data made public) and this is > > > well before the common use of cell-phones. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ***Dr Cheney thought a more virulent microbe crossed the globe over > > > a decades time that explained this peak, but shouldn't the number of > > > cases for CFS be increasing given the now ubiquitous proliferation of > > > EM devices like cell-phones? Why the disconnect, pardon the pun, in > > > the numbers if EMs are causal? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2006 Report Share Posted July 5, 2006 Jill, It sounds to me that you are acknowledging a role of EMFs/Microwaves in this dis-ease process - but not just to the extent that I believe there is a role - and that you don't want to give up using your cell phone or living in a city. I think that in order to recover you need to get out of the electrosmog and once you have recovered you can possibly go back to living in a high electrosmog environment as long as you are doing things to strengthen your own natural energy grid and natural immunity, e.g. by doing Qi Gong, etc. Personally, I would rather live in a rural, low electrosmog area and be healthy than live in an area of high electrosmog and be sick. You sound as if you think there is nothing you can do about this problem so you are just going along with the status quo. I personally think it is better to try to be a change agent than join the status quo. I would like to leave this earth a better place for my children and their children to come. Unfortunately, that is not what the majority of us are doing. There needs to be a shift to a higher form of conscientiousness and consciousness. peace, paul > > > > > > > > > > > > , > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the Rich's article. I found it very informative. > > > > Please > > > > > > provide links to any articles on SNPs that you feel preclude > the > > > > fact > > > > > > that microwaves are a causal factor in CFS and other Neuro > Immune > > > > > > Endocrine Disfunction Syndromes. > > > > > > <> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ***Well, by definition SNPs preclude EMs as causal factors to > CFS, > > > > but you'll learn this as you read-up on the topic and I suggest > > > > starting with Pangborn and Bakers book, Autism: Effective > Biological > > > > Treatments and Dr Amy Yasko' book, Genetic Bypass. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ***You can also look at the archives over the last year here and > > > > particularly find the study's and PWCs Rich has addressed on the > > > > topic as they're quite telling. But both the archives and these > two > > > > books will give you a good start and quickly take this nonstarter > > > > point you attempt make out of the equation, SNPs absolutely > preclude > > > > EMs. Period. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have read Rich's poster session paper and I just have to say > that > > > > > > this in no way precludes microwave radiation as a causal factor > > > > in > > > > > > glutathione depletion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ***The SNPs data plus the overview in glutathiones role in human > > > > biology certainly does, which was my point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the contrary, the hypothesis that > > > > > > microwaves are a causal factor in CFS fits right in with his > > > > theory > > > > > > of glutathione depleteion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ***No it doesn't. The study of EMs and its hypothesized role in > > > > human biology, and particularly CFS, hasn't proved itself > sufficient > > > > enough that he felt it should be included in his glutathione > > > > depletion hypothesis for CFS. I'm sure if some good data was there > > > > he would've have included it and you simply asserting that it fits > > > > doesn't make it so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I believe that Rich would concur with this statement. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ***Well, he has already indicated to the contrary on this list to > > > > you more than once. May be you forgot or missed > > > > > his points? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did you actually read the quote I posted by Dr. Gerald Goldberg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ***I must have skipped over it because you didn't address it > to me > > > > or it didn't seem to respond to any of the questions I asked you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _Consistently in the scientific literature has been noted that > > > > > > animals and humans subjected to microwave radiation show > > > > decreased > > > > > > levels of SOD, catalase, glutathione, CoQ10 along with evidence > > > > of > > > > > > increased byproducts of oxidative stress to cell membranes, > MDA._ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ***Again, show the evidence that proves this is the causal link > > > > with the quantitative data to support it. You > > > > > also have never explained how CFS peaked in occurrence, in > ratio to > > > > the population, in the mid 1980s, having steadily dropped in > > > > occurrence since then(eg Dr Cheney's data made public) and this is > > > > well before the common use of cell-phones. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ***Dr Cheney thought a more virulent microbe crossed the globe > over > > > > a decades time that explained this peak, but shouldn't the > number of > > > > cases for CFS be increasing given the now ubiquitous > proliferation of > > > > EM devices like cell-phones? Why the disconnect, pardon the > pun, in > > > > the numbers if EMs are causal? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 Hi, . " Doyon " <prd34@...> wrote: > > , > > Do you or have you by any chance worked for the cell phone industry? ***Never. > Or maybe at least own some of their stock. The way you spin things is > amazing. ***I own no stock in that industry either and I'm not spinning, you're just saying this to evade my very pertinent question below and the fact the facts don't don't fit your EM hypothesis for CFS pathogenisis. ***In fact, the facts tend to quite readily rule your hypothesis out. davidhall2020wrote>> ***You also have never explained how CFS peaked in occurrence, in ratio to > the population, in the mid 1980s, having steadily dropped in > occurrence since then(eg Dr Cheney's data made public) and this is > well before the common use of cell-phones...Why the disconnect, pardon the pun, in the numbers if EMs are causal? > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 Again, , back up your so-called facts with sources. It seems to me that your " facts " are made up in your head. > > > > , > > > > Do you or have you by any chance worked for the cell phone industry? > > > > ***Never. > > > > > Or maybe at least own some of their stock. The way you spin things is > > amazing. > > > > ***I own no stock in that industry either and I'm not spinning, you're just saying this to evade my very pertinent question below and the fact the facts don't don't fit your EM hypothesis for CFS pathogenisis. > > > > ***In fact, the facts tend to quite readily rule your hypothesis out. > > > > > > > > davidhall2020wrote>> > ***You also have never explained how CFS peaked in occurrence, in ratio to > > the population, in the mid 1980s, having steadily dropped in > > occurrence since then(eg Dr Cheney's data made public) and this is > > well before the common use of cell-phones...Why the disconnect, pardon the pun, in the numbers if EMs are causal? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 No, , you are incorrect. Because it helped you so much and was so significant for you, you seem a bit fanatical about it at times. I think most people are responding that surely it is a piece of the puzzle for some of us, and for most of us, we don't think it is the main trigger. In addition, it's not that I maintain status quo. What I am saying is that much of the meaning of my life, which has no price you can put on it, is tied up in this city. Having lunch with my editor last Thursday for a few hours, discussing marketing plans, and then walking past the greenmarket across from Lincoln Center on the way home, one of the great musical centers of the world, and buying fresh currants and raw cheese from the local farmers (we have a terrific greenmarket setup in New York City), was a pleasure I would not forego. The place I got a tickbite, conversely, was relatively rural, nearly 3 hours from the city, in Connecticut on the border of Rhode Island. Before that I was exercising, sleeping normally, and living my life. Within 12 days of that bite I was a complete mess. So, from my history, if electrosmog had made me ill, I would've gotten ill from the city itself, to which I came as part of my destiny and choice at age 19. What I actually got ill from was the country, where they don't kill deer and so deer have taken over the wooded properties, and drop infected ticks all over the place. I appreciate if you post information and studies about it, but to state about someone you've never met that you think you know what is causing their problem, and telling them what you think they need to do to get better, is really not that constructive. Yes, I will keep using my cellphone, but if its for more than a few minutes, I'll use the bluetooth. And I'm not a big cellphone user anyway. I'd be bored silly in the countryside as a permanent address. The clinical depression resulting from that would depress my immune system thoroughly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 Jill, Ah, you are from New York. I can understand the attachment. Sorry, I don't really know very much about Lyme Disease - and I didn't even want to get tested (I had enough on my plate), though as a child I was bitten many of times by ticks growing up in a rural area of Pennsylvania. Another person on this list had told me in private correspondence that she and her son had Lyme, but that her son did not exhibit any symptoms - which leaves me to consider that it may lie dormant in the system like viruses and might in fact be activated by a weakening of the immune system. Most people catch HHV6 as children and by the age of 40 most people have caught EBV and CMV - I think I recall reading somewhere. Though it seems that when the immune system is weakened somehow (perhaps by a decrease in lymphocytes) these are reactivated. I was sick for 6 months trying everything and anything and not having much improvement in symptoms until I started to even suspect the microwaves. Then when I rented a cabin just for 3 days up in the mountains - where there is no cell phone coverage - I noticed such an immediate and sharp improvement in symptoms that I ended up staying there for 4 months. What can I say except that I hope that I have increased the awareness that this might be a factor in this illness for a number of people. Like I said before I got sick and for 6 months after, it had never even occurred to me that cell phones and cell phone towers might be making people sick. After researching it for the past 9 months I am more and more convinced that this is in fact the case. peace, paul > > No, , you are incorrect. > Because it helped you so much and was so significant for you, you seem > a bit fanatical about it at times. I think most people are responding > that surely it is a piece of the puzzle for some of us, and for most > of us, we don't think it is the main trigger. > > In addition, it's not that I maintain status quo. What I am saying is > that much of the meaning of my life, which has no price you can put on > it, is tied up in this city. Having lunch with my editor last Thursday > for a few hours, discussing marketing plans, and then walking past the > greenmarket across from Lincoln Center on the way home, one of the > great musical centers of the world, and buying fresh currants and raw > cheese from the local farmers (we have a terrific greenmarket setup in > New York City), was a pleasure I would not forego. The place I got a > tickbite, conversely, was relatively rural, nearly 3 hours from the > city, in Connecticut on the border of Rhode Island. Before that I was > exercising, sleeping normally, and living my life. Within 12 days of > that bite I was a complete mess. > > So, from my history, if electrosmog had made me ill, I would've gotten > ill from the city itself, to which I came as part of my destiny and > choice at age 19. What I actually got ill from was the country, where > they don't kill deer and so deer have taken over the wooded > properties, and drop infected ticks all over the place. I appreciate > if you post information and studies about it, but to state about > someone you've never met that you think you know what is causing their > problem, and telling them what you think they need to do to get > better, is really not that constructive. > > Yes, I will keep using my cellphone, but if its for more than a few > minutes, I'll use the bluetooth. And I'm not a big cellphone user anyway. > > I'd be bored silly in the countryside as a permanent address. The > clinical depression resulting from that would depress my immune system > thoroughly. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 Jill, Just a suggestion, but you might consider cancelling your cell phone contract since by having one you are empowering the cell phone companies to radiate you and other people by building more and more powerful cell phone towers. Also, you might consider joining groups that promote the lowering of microwave radiation levels and the formation of microwave-free zones. I think it would make New York a better place to live. The group Microwave News http://www.microwavenews.com/ is btw based in New York. peace, paul > > No, , you are incorrect. > Because it helped you so much and was so significant for you, you seem > a bit fanatical about it at times. I think most people are responding > that surely it is a piece of the puzzle for some of us, and for most > of us, we don't think it is the main trigger. > > In addition, it's not that I maintain status quo. What I am saying is > that much of the meaning of my life, which has no price you can put on > it, is tied up in this city. Having lunch with my editor last Thursday > for a few hours, discussing marketing plans, and then walking past the > greenmarket across from Lincoln Center on the way home, one of the > great musical centers of the world, and buying fresh currants and raw > cheese from the local farmers (we have a terrific greenmarket setup in > New York City), was a pleasure I would not forego. The place I got a > tickbite, conversely, was relatively rural, nearly 3 hours from the > city, in Connecticut on the border of Rhode Island. Before that I was > exercising, sleeping normally, and living my life. Within 12 days of > that bite I was a complete mess. > > So, from my history, if electrosmog had made me ill, I would've gotten > ill from the city itself, to which I came as part of my destiny and > choice at age 19. What I actually got ill from was the country, where > they don't kill deer and so deer have taken over the wooded > properties, and drop infected ticks all over the place. I appreciate > if you post information and studies about it, but to state about > someone you've never met that you think you know what is causing their > problem, and telling them what you think they need to do to get > better, is really not that constructive. > > Yes, I will keep using my cellphone, but if its for more than a few > minutes, I'll use the bluetooth. And I'm not a big cellphone user anyway. > > I'd be bored silly in the countryside as a permanent address. The > clinical depression resulting from that would depress my immune system > thoroughly. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 What I'm wondering is how this can relate to those of us that have been sick for 30 years or more, before cell phones were even thought about. It's possible there are triggers, but when I was felled I happened to be working in my garden that day, and it happened in one day that I went from vibrant to bedbound. No car accident, no emotional trauma, no flu or illness, no nothing......except a tick bite. Doyon <prd34@...> wrote: Jill, Ah, you are from New York. I can understand the attachment. Sorry, I don't really know very much about Lyme Disease - and I didn't even want to get tested (I had enough on my plate), though as a child I was bitten many of times by ticks growing up in a rural area of Pennsylvania. Another person on this list had told me in private correspondence that she and her son had Lyme, but that her son did not exhibit any symptoms - which leaves me to consider that it may lie dormant in the system like viruses and might in fact be activated by a weakening of the immune system. Most people catch HHV6 as children and by the age of 40 most people have caught EBV and CMV - I think I recall reading somewhere. Though it seems that when the immune system is weakened somehow (perhaps by a decrease in lymphocytes) these are reactivated. I was sick for 6 months trying everything and anything and not having much improvement in symptoms until I started to even suspect the microwaves. Then when I rented a cabin just for 3 days up in the mountains - where there is no cell phone coverage - I noticed such an immediate and sharp improvement in symptoms that I ended up staying there for 4 months. What can I say except that I hope that I have increased the awareness that this might be a factor in this illness for a number of people. Like I said before I got sick and for 6 months after, it had never even occurred to me that cell phones and cell phone towers might be making people sick. After researching it for the past 9 months I am more and more convinced that this is in fact the case. peace, paul > > No, , you are incorrect. > Because it helped you so much and was so significant for you, you seem > a bit fanatical about it at times. I think most people are responding > that surely it is a piece of the puzzle for some of us, and for most > of us, we don't think it is the main trigger. > > In addition, it's not that I maintain status quo. What I am saying is > that much of the meaning of my life, which has no price you can put on > it, is tied up in this city. Having lunch with my editor last Thursday > for a few hours, discussing marketing plans, and then walking past the > greenmarket across from Lincoln Center on the way home, one of the > great musical centers of the world, and buying fresh currants and raw > cheese from the local farmers (we have a terrific greenmarket setup in > New York City), was a pleasure I would not forego. The place I got a > tickbite, conversely, was relatively rural, nearly 3 hours from the > city, in Connecticut on the border of Rhode Island. Before that I was > exercising, sleeping normally, and living my life. Within 12 days of > that bite I was a complete mess. > > So, from my history, if electrosmog had made me ill, I would've gotten > ill from the city itself, to which I came as part of my destiny and > choice at age 19. What I actually got ill from was the country, where > they don't kill deer and so deer have taken over the wooded > properties, and drop infected ticks all over the place. I appreciate > if you post information and studies about it, but to state about > someone you've never met that you think you know what is causing their > problem, and telling them what you think they need to do to get > better, is really not that constructive. > > Yes, I will keep using my cellphone, but if its for more than a few > minutes, I'll use the bluetooth. And I'm not a big cellphone user anyway. > > I'd be bored silly in the countryside as a permanent address. The > clinical depression resulting from that would depress my immune system > thoroughly. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 Well of course! Me too. It is getting really tiresome this so-called debate or whatever and it is really time for it to stop. It will drive people away. So boring; nyaa nyaa yes it does, nyaaa nyaa, no it doesn't, over and over. Taking up all the space! Give it a rest! Adrienne Re: Re: / What I'm wondering is how this can relate to those of us that have been sick for 30 years or more, before cell phones were even thought about. It's possible there are triggers, but when I was felled I happened to be working in my garden that day, and it happened in one day that I went from vibrant to bedbound. No car accident, no emotional trauma, no flu or illness, no nothing......except a tick bite. Doyon <prd34@...> wrote: Jill, Ah, you are from New York. I can understand the attachment. Sorry, I don't really know very much about Lyme Disease - and I didn't even want to get tested (I had enough on my plate), though as a child I was bitten many of times by ticks growing up in a rural area of Pennsylvania. Another person on this list had told me in private correspondence that she and her son had Lyme, but that her son did not exhibit any symptoms - which leaves me to consider that it may lie dormant in the system like viruses and might in fact be activated by a weakening of the immune system. Most people catch HHV6 as children and by the age of 40 most people have caught EBV and CMV - I think I recall reading somewhere. Though it seems that when the immune system is weakened somehow (perhaps by a decrease in lymphocytes) these are reactivated. I was sick for 6 months trying everything and anything and not having much improvement in symptoms until I started to even suspect the microwaves. Then when I rented a cabin just for 3 days up in the mountains - where there is no cell phone coverage - I noticed such an immediate and sharp improvement in symptoms that I ended up staying there for 4 months. What can I say except that I hope that I have increased the awareness that this might be a factor in this illness for a number of people. Like I said before I got sick and for 6 months after, it had never even occurred to me that cell phones and cell phone towers might be making people sick. After researching it for the past 9 months I am more and more convinced that this is in fact the case. peace, paul > > No, , you are incorrect. > Because it helped you so much and was so significant for you, you seem > a bit fanatical about it at times. I think most people are responding > that surely it is a piece of the puzzle for some of us, and for most > of us, we don't think it is the main trigger. > > In addition, it's not that I maintain status quo. What I am saying is > that much of the meaning of my life, which has no price you can put on > it, is tied up in this city. Having lunch with my editor last Thursday > for a few hours, discussing marketing plans, and then walking past the > greenmarket across from Lincoln Center on the way home, one of the > great musical centers of the world, and buying fresh currants and raw > cheese from the local farmers (we have a terrific greenmarket setup in > New York City), was a pleasure I would not forego. The place I got a > tickbite, conversely, was relatively rural, nearly 3 hours from the > city, in Connecticut on the border of Rhode Island. Before that I was > exercising, sleeping normally, and living my life. Within 12 days of > that bite I was a complete mess. > > So, from my history, if electrosmog had made me ill, I would've gotten > ill from the city itself, to which I came as part of my destiny and > choice at age 19. What I actually got ill from was the country, where > they don't kill deer and so deer have taken over the wooded > properties, and drop infected ticks all over the place. I appreciate > if you post information and studies about it, but to state about > someone you've never met that you think you know what is causing their > problem, and telling them what you think they need to do to get > better, is really not that constructive. > > Yes, I will keep using my cellphone, but if its for more than a few > minutes, I'll use the bluetooth. And I'm not a big cellphone user anyway. > > I'd be bored silly in the countryside as a permanent address. The > clinical depression resulting from that would depress my immune system > thoroughly. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 > > > > No, , you are incorrect. > > Because it helped you so much and was so significant for you, you > seem > > a bit fanatical about it at times. I think most people are > responding > > that surely it is a piece of the puzzle for some of us, and for > most > > of us, we don't think it is the main trigger. > > > > In addition, it's not that I maintain status quo. What I am saying > is > > that much of the meaning of my life, which has no price you can put > on > > it, is tied up in this city. Having lunch with my editor last > Thursday > > for a few hours, discussing marketing plans, and then walking past > the > > greenmarket across from Lincoln Center on the way home, one of the > > great musical centers of the world, and buying fresh currants and > raw > > cheese from the local farmers (we have a terrific greenmarket setup > in > > New York City), was a pleasure I would not forego. The place I got > a > > tickbite, conversely, was relatively rural, nearly 3 hours from the > > city, in Connecticut on the border of Rhode Island. Before that I > was > > exercising, sleeping normally, and living my life. Within 12 days > of > > that bite I was a complete mess. > > > > So, from my history, if electrosmog had made me ill, I would've > gotten > > ill from the city itself, to which I came as part of my destiny and > > choice at age 19. What I actually got ill from was the country, > where > > they don't kill deer and so deer have taken over the wooded > > properties, and drop infected ticks all over the place. I > appreciate > > if you post information and studies about it, but to state about > > someone you've never met that you think you know what is causing > their > > problem, and telling them what you think they need to do to get > > better, is really not that constructive. > > > > Yes, I will keep using my cellphone, but if its for more than a few > > minutes, I'll use the bluetooth. And I'm not a big cellphone user > anyway. > > > > I'd be bored silly in the countryside as a permanent address. The > > clinical depression resulting from that would depress my immune > system > > thoroughly. > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 Adrienne> Well of course! Me too. It is getting really tiresome this so-called debate or whatever and it is really time for it to stop. It will drive people away. So boring; nyaa nyaa yes it does, nyaaa nyaa, no it doesn't, over and over. Taking up all the space! Give it a rest! This is NOT a debate. This is an important new finding about CFS that a researcher is attempting to discuss on a research list. Some list members are trying to banish the topic by creating straw man arguments. Sorry this makes some people uncomfortable, I too would hate to give up EMF, but it is real and and others have real data and it is worthy of discussion. Edy> What I'm wondering is how this can relate to those of us that have been sick for 30 years or more, before cell phones were even thought about. It's possible there are triggers, but when I was felled I happened to be working in my garden that day, and it happened in one day that I went from vibrant to bedbound. No car accident, no emotional trauma, no flu or illness, no nothing......except a tick bite. This relates to everyone because EMF was a problem issue long before cell phones. Some of the earliest CFS cases were among telegraph operators. EMF sensitivity in CFS is a big clue about our pathology, and we need more clues. Please examine your statement, are you saying that all CFS is therefore caused by tick bites? What about the people who had other triggers? You talk about your trigger, talks about his, neither is universal. This logic that because some people have had CFS for decades therefore EMF is not involved does not work except as an attempt to banish the EMF topic. Very curious. Of course you have had EMF exposure for decades, household currents can alter some biological functions, for example, among those sensitive. Research shows that the EMF effect is additive, for example some infections (or immune responses) are worse with EMF. The way to prove and others right or wrong is data, not argument. For sick people to try EMF blocking and see what happens. I tried it and it helped some of my more serious problems. This is worthy of serious discussion. may be overstating the effect, I don't know yet, but I do know this is for real. --Kurt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 ,Kurt Summer is bothering me a lot. I am thinking if I should get an air conditioner. On the other side I am scared that this would add another magnetic field to my life space while I am trying to decrease the already existing appliances. What do you think? Nil ----- Original Message ----- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 Hi all, I have another point of view on this subject.I have mentioned this before couple of times in the past but not many seemed to be interested. As the discussion had come to this point I also felt a need to restate my opinion. Yes,I do accept that cell phones and magnetic fields may have an important effect on CFS but I am thinking that the real problem is high cortisol. High cortisol damages the BBB and leaves the person open to magnetic insults.That is why some people don't get CFS even if they talk by cell phones whole day while others like me get brain problems even two minutes after using a cell phone. I am hoping that this also will be considered by you. Best wishes. Nil RE: Re: / > Adrienne> Well of course! Me too. It is getting really tiresome this > so-called debate or whatever and it is really time for it to stop. It > will drive people away. So boring; nyaa nyaa yes it does, nyaaa nyaa, no > it doesn't, over and over. Taking up all the space! > Give it a rest! > This is NOT a debate. This is an important new finding about CFS that a > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 ,Kurt Summer is bothering me a lot. I am thinking if I should get an air conditioner. On the other side I am scared that this would add another magnetic field to my life space while I am trying to decrease the already existing appliances. What do you think? Nil I would get the air conditioner, but also get a power strip that filters EMF. Much of our household EMF problems come from other peoples' homes, with extra frequencies carried via the power lines. Also, I would only use the AC when you need it, maybe turn it off at night, for example. I have an air filter and Internet router near my bed and I find that when I am well I can leave them on at night, when I am sick I need to turn them off to sleep. I try to put all my electronic devices on power strips, so it is easy to turn them all off easily, along with their transformers. --Kurt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 The only answer I can give you is that the first microwave cell phone network was set up in the USA in 1983 in Chicago. From there they started spreading to the major cities and then to rural areas. Interestingly, people started getting this disease in great numbers around 1985 along with the set up of these networks. Moreover, it started in clusters along with the cell phone networks. It wasn't until 1996 thaough that they pretty much blanketed the country with the towers. paul > > > > No, , you are incorrect. > > Because it helped you so much and was so significant for you, you > seem > > a bit fanatical about it at times. I think most people are > responding > > that surely it is a piece of the puzzle for some of us, and for > most > > of us, we don't think it is the main trigger. > > > > In addition, it's not that I maintain status quo. What I am saying > is > > that much of the meaning of my life, which has no price you can put > on > > it, is tied up in this city. Having lunch with my editor last > Thursday > > for a few hours, discussing marketing plans, and then walking past > the > > greenmarket across from Lincoln Center on the way home, one of the > > great musical centers of the world, and buying fresh currants and > raw > > cheese from the local farmers (we have a terrific greenmarket setup > in > > New York City), was a pleasure I would not forego. The place I got > a > > tickbite, conversely, was relatively rural, nearly 3 hours from the > > city, in Connecticut on the border of Rhode Island. Before that I > was > > exercising, sleeping normally, and living my life. Within 12 days > of > > that bite I was a complete mess. > > > > So, from my history, if electrosmog had made me ill, I would've > gotten > > ill from the city itself, to which I came as part of my destiny and > > choice at age 19. What I actually got ill from was the country, > where > > they don't kill deer and so deer have taken over the wooded > > properties, and drop infected ticks all over the place. I > appreciate > > if you post information and studies about it, but to state about > > someone you've never met that you think you know what is causing > their > > problem, and telling them what you think they need to do to get > > better, is really not that constructive. > > > > Yes, I will keep using my cellphone, but if its for more than a few > > minutes, I'll use the bluetooth. And I'm not a big cellphone user > anyway. > > > > I'd be bored silly in the countryside as a permanent address. The > > clinical depression resulting from that would depress my immune > system > > thoroughly. > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 ...they are estactic and believe that this is only > the possible explanation...yet so so many same/simular symptoms are > caused by other things without any doubt as I see things. I have said over and over that I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT IT IS THE ONLY factor in THIS DISEASE process. I wish people would stop putting words in my mouth. What I have been saying is that I believe it to be a major factor for a good number of people - and I have been trying to show evidence to back this up. Unfortunately, (or fortunatley) a certain member of this list has challenged my position and I have responded by presenting more evidence, which just leads to more denial on his part. I am very ready to give it a rest. peace, paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2006 Report Share Posted July 6, 2006 Now that's an interesting idea, Nil. Thank you for saying it. All I know is that stress makes you flood your brain with cortisol. And I seem to remember that that was a good precursor for Altzheimer's too, but I can't tell you where I read it. If there's good basis to your idea, and it sounds to me like there is...I'm so glad I never used a cell phone and stay away from most of the other EMF things, because I've had enough stess to sink a battleship and I'm sure my brain is soaking in cortisol. (Another reason I'm having adrenal problems?) Thanks, Nil. in Champaign IL > > Hi all, > > I have another point of view on this subject.I have mentioned this before > couple of times in the past but not many seemed to be interested. As the > discussion had come to this point I also felt a need to restate my opinion. > > Yes,I do accept that cell phones and magnetic fields may have an important > effect on CFS but I am thinking that the real problem is high cortisol. High > cortisol damages the BBB and leaves the person open to magnetic insults.That > is why some people don't get CFS even if they talk by cell phones whole day > while others like me get brain problems even two minutes after using a cell > phone. I am hoping that this also will be considered by you. > Best wishes. > Nil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 Hi, . " Doyon " <prd34@...> wrote: > > Again, , back up your so-called facts with sources. It seems to > me that your " facts " are made up in your head. ***If you care to re-read what I had in fact wrote, Dr Cheney was the source of the fact below that has you so reactive. I referenced him quite clearly. ***Your increasing testiness, avoidance of serious response to serious questions and lack of interest in dialogue, given your monologue, tells me any dialogue that ever was there is over. ***Carry on as you may, but you can count me out. You've no need for me. > > davidhall2020wrote>> > > ***You also have never explained how CFS peaked in occurrence, in > ratio to > > > the population, in the mid 1980s, having steadily dropped in > > > occurrence since then(eg Dr Cheney's data made public) and this > is > > > well before the common use of cell-phones...Why the disconnect, > pardon the pun, in the numbers if EMs are causal? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 Yes, I agree 100% that stressed adrenals releasing cortisol are part of the equation. Studies have shown that exposure to microwaves causes the adrenals to initially excrete more cortisol as a stress response but continued exposure leads to adrenal exhaustion. paul > > > > Hi all, > > > > I have another point of view on this subject.I have mentioned this > before > > couple of times in the past but not many seemed to be interested. > As the > > discussion had come to this point I also felt a need to restate my > opinion. > > > > Yes,I do accept that cell phones and magnetic fields may have an > important > > effect on CFS but I am thinking that the real problem is high > cortisol. High > > cortisol damages the BBB and leaves the person open to magnetic > insults.That > > is why some people don't get CFS even if they talk by cell phones > whole day > > while others like me get brain problems even two minutes after > using a cell > > phone. I am hoping that this also will be considered by you. > > Best wishes. > > Nil > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2006 Report Share Posted July 7, 2006 , You are absolutely right - I do not need you. And I am sorry to say, but it sounds to me like you are describing yourself below. btw, I have searched on the net for anything that would indicate that there has been a decrease in CFS and could find nothing. Everywhere I have looked I have found statements that it is increasing. Now, the only reason I can see for a possible belief that it is decreasing may have to do with the insurance companies not wanting to pay benefits - and I suspect that they might have had their hand in the CDC definition of CFS that came out in 1994. I couldn't even find anything regarding the statistics on the CDC site. S. suspects also that they don't want to release facts considering the true epidemic status of this disease process. paul > > Hi, . > > > > " Doyon " <prd34@> wrote: > > > > Again, , back up your so-called facts with sources. It seems to > > me that your " facts " are made up in your head. > > > > ***If you care to re-read what I had > in fact wrote, Dr Cheney was the source of the fact below that has you so reactive. I referenced him quite clearly. > > > > ***Your increasing testiness, avoidance of serious response to serious questions and lack of interest in dialogue, given your monologue, tells me any dialogue that ever was there is over. > > > > ***Carry on as you may, but you can count me out. You've no need for me. > > > > > > > > > > davidhall2020wrote>> > > > ***You also have never explained how CFS peaked in occurrence, in > > ratio to > > > > the population, in the mid 1980s, having steadily dropped in > > > > occurrence since then(eg Dr Cheney's data made public) and this > > is > > > > well before the common use of cell-phones...Why the disconnect, > > pardon the pun, in the numbers if EMs are causal? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.