Re: CFS/Lyme

[Guest guest]

Hi Michele,

Excellent advice. It's exactly what my plan is. Tho I do want to work on

getting rid of the bugs. I credit Jill with this one, but I do HBOT daily at

home for an hour which is supposed to kill yeast and lyme and am thinking about

Kurt's suggestion of salt/C. Beyond that I'm so reactive to everything that I

have to go very slow and I think as folks here are saying it's the methylation

pathways, which I've tested and don't look so great. Lots of nulls. Drat. So

my work is cut out for me. I'd be very interested to know how many of us are

under doctors care or just trying on our own. There's some very intellegent

researchers here. Lucky us! Edy

rosebud1082001 <ganesh1008@...> wrote:

Hi Edy,

I haven't been following this thread, but thought I'd jump in. My

story is much the same, Lyme, Babesia, heavy metals, throw in a low

dose chronic carbon monoxide exposure, etc. I would just urge you to

make sure your detox pathways are working well before you work on your

amalgams and heavy metals. I had full mouth restoration in 1995, did

DMPS IV pushes to chelate, tests indicated that I excreted no mercury.

I did acquire a whole bunch of new symptoms, though, afterwards that

still continue. Although I did a ton of homework before having the

dental work done and chelating, not much was known about the

importance of glutathione and the detox pathways. A lot more is known

now. A couple of years ago I was advised by a naturopath to load up on

glutathione before and after attempting to remove heavy metals.

Unfortunately I am one of the folks who is unable to build up

glutathione, so I am having the Amy Yasko testing done on the

methylation pathways, and have to probably work on that first.

It's like a tightly knotted ball of string we have to unravel.

Best of luck.

Michele

> Edy,

>

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone,

If a person diagnosed as CFS tests positive for Lyme, you don't know if Lyme is

the core factor in your symptoms or if it is one of seven core factors in your

symptoms. I think Lyme is an important factor, but it's importance is

overtstated. Do we know that Lyme is more important than other infections, e.g.

rikettsial, mycoplasma, chlamydia? That's not an easy question to answer. I

personally think Lyme is one of many factors which contribute to CFS.

See posts below about Lyme significance and diaganosis. They write the bowen

test is not reliable as it appears to test virtually 100% of people positive.

--------------------------------------

[CDG] Tests for Lyme responses

Q: I have used Bowen Lab for Lymes detection. Would be intersted in

knowing protocols that have shown positive results. MS

A1: I reported on Lyme and the Bowen test in Second Opinion many

months ago. I used the Bowen test and found that 100% of those I

tested were positive. Does that mean the test is invalid? No. Does

that make that test and all other Lyme tests less useful, likely

yes. For example, even I was positive with a titer of 1:64, rather

high. Yet those who know me, I'm sure, would never suspect that I

harbor this so called terrible pathogen I abound with energy and

even did the Grand canyon backpacking last June while those half my

age helicoptered in.

It is my feeling that Lyme is ubiquitous. Read the article on my

website www.secondopinionnewsletter.com. It is very easily

transmitted, doesn't require a tick bite as most assume, and is the

new spirochete of the 21st century as Lues was in the older times.

Do we have to succumb? NO! It is all in how our God given immune

systems respond and keep the bugs in check.

Remember the battle between Pasteur and Bechamp. It is the terrain,

not the bug. I have seen good results with suspected Lyme simply by

treating the patient and not the infection. No one size fits all.

Jay Rowen, MD

www.secondopinionnewsletter.com

A2: MS,

In response to Bowen test for lyme, I have several thoughts. I'd

also welcome input to my response from the readers.

Joanne Whitaker's work has been criticized because virtually 100% of

specimens tested for Lyme come back positive. Either her testing is

accurate or not. If accurate, then I see one of two scenarios.

1. Only people with lyme are getting her test done. This would seem

over time to be very unlikely.

2. Many, most or all of us have been exposed to Lyme, much like

EBV,CMV and other infections. I doubt the only mode of transmission

is the dear tick. Probably because of a weakened immune system, the

bug multiplies or becomes symptomatic. This scenario seems more

likely.

Joanne believes this organism to be one of the " smartest " and most

difficult to treat in the " bacterial " kingdom. She and Lida Mattman

believe (I tend to agree) that this organism is pleomorphic and

probably has several forms. It can shed its' cell wall and look like

a virus. Lida and others believe that viruses, bacteria and fungi

may all be variations of the same organisms. With Lyme, this ability

enables it to elude detection and treatment. It is my contention you

have to throw everything but the kitchen sink at it to achieve

success. If not attacked at its' various stages of

development/change, it won't be eradicated.

This also brings up the question. Do we ever really eradicate it or

simply get it under control? If we all have been infected, maybe we

should really be looking at why the immune system is not able to

combat the bug and why others don't manifest the disease. In your

case, even though you gave intensive treatment, it doesn't seem

surprising to me that the numbers didn't change given the above

thoughts. I'd be curious if the patient had any clinical

improvement.

Steve Grable MD

A3: Berkley Bedell is still my hero on Lymes.......did anyone

contact him on the Lymes question from the last session on this

condition? I have his contact if you are interested. His

Foundation is doing great research.

Jan B. Hamilton, Ph.D., Registered Dietitian

President and CEO of Nutritional Biomedicine

Box 8458

Aspen, Co. 81612

970-925-5588 or 970-309-1675

nutritionalbiomedicine.com

Also:

1000 Jefferson Dr.

Plainview, Texas 79072

806-296-9355

A4: I would recommend IGENE-X from Palo Alto, CA for Lyme

evaluation; talk with Dr. Nick . I used to utilize Bowen, but

every sample I sent to that laboratory had a positive result.

Either it is too sensitive a test or the population is highly

positive. The point is, I need to utilize a laboratory that will

give a significant number of negative tests to confirm reliability.

I would recommend ILADS.org for information and protocols on Lyme

treatment and consider attending an

International Conference on Lyme. I have attended 3 conferences,

have a patient population of over 300 confirmed Lyme cases, utilize

holistic, traditional and alternative therapies in my practice.

Good luck.

Steve Meress MD FACP Fox Valley Wellness Center, Fond du Lac, WI

920-922-5433

A5: Dear Health Care Members:

I want you to know that there are nice people who will confirm your

fears because they have a test that shows 99% of us have Lyme so

please change YOUR focus and read more about total body burden of

pathogens.

I guarantee you have CMV or Chlamydia and once you realize that you

also have a lot of lead and mercury and DDT and Dioxins and PCB's

and, I can prove that you do not have enough Iodine or Magnesium or

Vitamin D, then you can start to focus on getting healthy.

There is no short cut; forget about Lyme and focus on doing

everything correctly. We all need more nutrients in and more toxins

out. The day will come that you will spend your money on gene

testing so that we can personalize your approach.

Sincerely,

Garry F. Gordon MD, DO, MD(H)

President, Gordon Research Institute

www.gordonresearch.com

[Guest guest]

Edy Rayfield <edyrayfield@...> wrote:

>

CFS docs called it Hyperalert immune response. This could be

outdated tho, as I've focused mostly on lyme, metals, and molds and

yeasts recently. Hope that helps and maybe encourages more

researching. Edy

>

" Hyperalert " , that's what Dr Cheney always believed.

What has recently drawn your attention to molds and yeasts?

-

[Guest guest]

Hi , Well, I had a mold panal done and candida IgG was a 6+ Penicillium

notatum a 6+, Cladosporium herbarum a 6+, Aspergillus fumigatus a 6+. These are

all IgG and a 6+ is the highest number they use. My numbers are even higher

than the highest they use by tens of thousands for the 6+ score so in theory I

suppose I would get a much higher number if there were any. The HBOT should

help with the yeasts and lyme as they're anaerobic, but the molds are another

issue. Oh and Alternaria tenuis is only a 4+. if you have anything to add

to this I would greatly appreciate it. My doc suggested the panal. To be honest

with you I was kind of shocked at the numbers. She said these alone could be

making me as unwell as I am. On top of all the bacteria and viruses. As Kurt

so aptly calls it.....a compost pile of baddies. And I had challange test for

the metals. Very high. Over the years I've come to feel like Sisyphus

sometimes, rolling the rock up and having it

inevitably fall again. Frustrated in California, Edy

erikmoldwarrior <erikmoldwarrior@...> wrote:

Edy Rayfield <edyrayfield@...> wrote:

>

CFS docs called it Hyperalert immune response. This could be

outdated tho, as I've focused mostly on lyme, metals, and molds and

yeasts recently. Hope that helps and maybe encourages more

researching. Edy

>

" Hyperalert " , that's what Dr Cheney always believed.

What has recently drawn your attention to molds and yeasts?

-

[Guest guest]

Kurt, I think this is a very intelligent post except I want to add I

have a slightly different perspective.

I don't think you were able to defend against lyme just fine. Just

like me, I got a tickbite at age 21 (only in retrospect do I

understand that) sitting and reading in a wooded backyard every day

one summer at Yale in Connecticut. I got a weird rash, and later that

year, some joint pains and started to develop food allergies. I went

thru cycles of many things in my 20's...

Lyme is a very slowly debilitating bug.

And once it is in there, skewing your system, screwing with your

Toll-Like Receptors, and slowly but surely impairing your immune

system, you DO become vulnerable to other pathogens. And then it can

become full blown, although in my case, it was adding in tickbite #2

with babesia that did the ultimate number.

So, I personally do see lyme, just lyme alone, as a very bad 'super'

bug and I believe its bioweaponized and I believe it's meant to to

damage very slowly and insidiously and irreparably over time.

>

> Edy,

>

> OK, I have to jump in because I think I have Lyme and CFS, mycoplasma,

> mold illness, and EMF sensitivity (to cell phones), and heavy metals,

> and they are all distinctly different problems, the only common element

> seems to be that together they deplete glutathione and adrenal hormones.

> And that is probably the vicious circle, because then the depleted

> hormones allow the infections and toxins to disseminate and reach a

> steady state. We become a human mulch pile.

>

> The reason I am fairly sure that Lyme and CFS are distinct is based on

> my history. I first acquired Lyme about 18 years ago, I got a strange

> rash, joint pains, some cognitive symptoms, breathlessness after

> exertion, and a few anxiety problems. I lived in the west, had spent

> time in the Tahoe area in the early 80s, but also spent time in the east

> often on business, mostly Mass and CT. I remember driving through Old

> Lyme CT during this time and joking about watching out for ticks (poetic

> justice?). So hard to say if I had east or west coast Lyme but could

> have been either. Anyway, I was treated by a dermatologist and a LCSW

> (for the anxiety issues) and never knew what had happened because the

> dermatologist said Lyme was not found in the west (yea right). The

> symptoms gradually subsided and I got mostly well and went on with life.

> Years later several Lyme tests showed this had been Bb. That Lyme

> experience was not so bad for me, but it also was my first major

> pathology. And I never had CFS during the whole episode, was a swimmer

> and worked out daily, slept fine, and so forth. So for me, Lyme was NOT

> the same as CFS. But the plot thickens.

>

> About 10 years after this Lyme episode I was working in a high-intensity

> research job, had a lot of toxin exposure, had a lot of amalgams

> installed, worked around some GWI vets and some chronically sick

> military people. I got a flu-like illness and that was a completely

> different problem, it became standard CFS. Later tests showed the

> flu-like illness was probably mycoplasma. I was treated by a GP who

> said I was too cerebral and that was why I was sick, he sent me to a

> psychiatrist. Later I worked with an Intern who believed I was sick but

> was clueless about how to help. So I did what seemed intuitive to me, I

> had daily steam saunas, wet saunas, spent time in a Jacuzzi, and tried

> to burn the infection out. I also felt intuitively that I should take

> calcium and magnesium, so I did. And it all worked, I recovered about

> 90%, and thinking I had beaten CFS I went on with my life, not

> understanding the concept of an energy window. In retrospect I can see

> how the pathologies were adding together and depleting my glutathione.

>

>

> After recovering this second time, still not understanding CFS very

> well, I took another stressful job, and moved to the east coast in 1999,

> into a moldy house. I decided to try abx to see if I could get all the

> way better. This time I crashed totally, and have yet to recover, even

> though I moved to a better house. I got pancreatitis from the drugs

> (probably from doxycycline, read the package inserts always first!), got

> protozoas, and became an incubator for bad bugs, a mulch pile for them

> to grow their families, and a toxic waste dump. And developed very low

> glutathione, compromised methylation, poor sulfation, unbalanced liver

> (fast phase I, slow phase II), based on tests. I also became EMF

> sensitive, got mold illness, digestive dysbiosis, parasites, etc., etc.

> AND, I should add that my Lyme symptoms returned as well, and several of

> my CFS therapies, including salt/c and some immune-boosting, have caused

> the Lyme rash sites to hurt again from time to time. So the Lyme has

> also been reactivated as part of this latest CFS incident.

>

> The common denominator in this seems to be an inability to defend

> against a variety of pathogens, and an inability to detoxify adequately.

> Maybe I am being a historical revisionist, but the vicious circle

> hypothesis of glutathione insufficiency is the first explanation I have

> hard that can tie this all together.

>

> So the way I am now viewing things is that Lyme is just one of many

> possible ways to trigger the CFS pathology, and a person can have Lyme

> with or without CFS. The converse is probably also true, a person can

> have CFS with or without Lyme. But if you do have both, you have the

> full range of Lyme symptoms AND CFS symptoms, the worst of both worlds.

> People who don't have both just would not understand. it is like chronic

> fatigue with an extra helping of insanity.

>

> To end on a positive note, I am becoming very optimistic that the

> vicious circle hypothesis is the breakthrough we have needed for so

> long. How ironic that Cheney discovered this problem originally but was

> then not able to make the connection between all of the pathologies. I

> am sure that we have some 'super bugs' that are causing much of the

> depletion of glutathione, probably much more than just Lyme. So

> stopping those bugs can probably help. But back when my glutathione

> status was fine, before all the toxin exposure and amalgams and the

> mycoplasma and mold, I was able to defend against Lyme just fine. So it

> seems to be an additive situation. I think Sara is right, that we need

> to do a little of everything: provide glutathione precursors, unblock

> the pathways, and also replace glutathione, to get the levels high

> enough to begin to recover. And also, probably anything we can do to

> detox, kill bugs and avoid glutathione-depleting stress and mold will

> also help.

>

> --Kurt

>

>

>

> Re: Re: CFS/Lyme

>

> , My LLMD has told me that the symptoms of Lyme on the West Coast

> are different from the East Coast because the bugs are slightly

> different as are the coinfections. They vary in the genetic codes even

> tho they're the same species of bug there are differences. And I believe

> this. Those of us on the West end have more of CFS like symptoms. Folks

> in the East have more of arthritis like symptoms. If you do some

> research on this you'll find it to be mostly so. There are crossovers,

> but there are differences as well. This has been researched.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I finally decided to do both protocols - for Lyme and CFS. So I'm a

few weeks into Salt/C but I also started Hetapressin injections again

and then there are all the other things which are hopefully addressing

one or the other ... or both as well.

Ballady

> > Edy,

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ballady,

This is the reason I often refer to my Lyme as CFS/Lyme, or Lyme/CFS

(depending on the audience). They are two partners in crime.

--Kurt

Re: CFS/Lyme

Kurt,

More interesting information to contemplate, especially the below and as

a person who has both Lyme and CFS (you're right about the many who do

not understand) I always felt not quite in the right element stationing

myself in just the Lyme or just the CFS boards, so have been going back

and forth and feeling a little " schizo " in the process, but felt I

needed info. from both camps (Edy's information would fit with this as

well.)

Thank you for further clarifying for me. I don't know if other's feel

this way, but it is important to my healing process to understand what

I'm dealing with and to be able to " name the animal. "

Ballady

> So the way I am now viewing things is that Lyme is just one of many

> possible ways to trigger the CFS pathology, and a person can have Lyme

> with or without CFS. The converse is probably also true, a person can

> have CFS with or without Lyme. But if you do have both, you have the

> full range of Lyme symptoms AND CFS symptoms, the worst of both

worlds.

> People who don't have both just would not understand. it is like

chronic

> fatigue with an extra helping of insanity.

>

[Guest guest]

I am equally off the charts reactive to mold, I believe its genetic.

BTW, yeasts/fungi are facultative anaerobes, meaning in an aerobic

environment they can indeed survive. They can switch their way of

functioning.

> >

> CFS docs called it Hyperalert immune response. This could be

> outdated tho, as I've focused mostly on lyme, metals, and molds and

> yeasts recently. Hope that helps and maybe encourages more

> researching. Edy

> >

>

> " Hyperalert " , that's what Dr Cheney always believed.

> What has recently drawn your attention to molds and yeasts?

> -

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi , What are you doing about it? I can't take antifungals, too reactive

to drugs. I have some oregano oil, but am reluctant to upset the apple cart as

I'm holding my own at the moment digestionwise. I believe the yeasts can do

that, switch, but am told yeasts cannot survive in a 21% oxygenated state. I

really hope this is true!!

jill1313 <jenbooks13@...> wrote: I am equally off the charts

reactive to mold, I believe its genetic.

BTW, yeasts/fungi are facultative anaerobes, meaning in an aerobic

environment they can indeed survive. They can switch their way of

functioning.

> >

> CFS docs called it Hyperalert immune response. This could be

> outdated tho, as I've focused mostly on lyme, metals, and molds and

> yeasts recently. Hope that helps and maybe encourages more

> researching. Edy

> >

>

> " Hyperalert " , that's what Dr Cheney always believed.

> What has recently drawn your attention to molds and yeasts?

> -

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Oh, Hi Jill, I thought I was talking to . What are you doing for the

molds?

jill1313 <jenbooks13@...> wrote: I am equally off the charts

reactive to mold, I believe its genetic.

BTW, yeasts/fungi are facultative anaerobes, meaning in an aerobic

environment they can indeed survive. They can switch their way of

functioning.

> >

> CFS docs called it Hyperalert immune response. This could be

> outdated tho, as I've focused mostly on lyme, metals, and molds and

> yeasts recently. Hope that helps and maybe encourages more

> researching. Edy

> >

>

> " Hyperalert " , that's what Dr Cheney always believed.

> What has recently drawn your attention to molds and yeasts?

> -

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Edie:

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1291681

Yeasts are facultative anaerobes. They can go either way. The hbo will

help you in many ways but if you have major fungal issues you have to

do something else. My main help right now is the IVIG and my doc

ordered the oral IgG2000 and I'll try that. I have trouble with

diflucan now, didn't before slyme, but my liver/gb is very sensitive

now. I'm going to try garlic IV's at some point, I think. They're

tough on people but they work. NOt garlic persay, but allitridi from

China.

> > >

> > CFS docs called it Hyperalert immune response. This could be

> > outdated tho, as I've focused mostly on lyme, metals, and molds and

> > yeasts recently. Hope that helps and maybe encourages more

> > researching. Edy

> > >

> >

> > " Hyperalert " , that's what Dr Cheney always believed.

> > What has recently drawn your attention to molds and yeasts?

> > -

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Thanks for all that, Jill, Hope you're on your feet today.

jill1313 <jenbooks13@...> wrote: Edie:

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1291681

Yeasts are facultative anaerobes. They can go either way. The hbo will

help you in many ways but if you have major fungal issues you have to

do something else. My main help right now is the IVIG and my doc

ordered the oral IgG2000 and I'll try that. I have trouble with

diflucan now, didn't before slyme, but my liver/gb is very sensitive

now. I'm going to try garlic IV's at some point, I think. They're

tough on people but they work. NOt garlic persay, but allitridi from

China.

> > >

> > CFS docs called it Hyperalert immune response. This could be

> > outdated tho, as I've focused mostly on lyme, metals, and molds and

> > yeasts recently. Hope that helps and maybe encourages more

> > researching. Edy

> > >

> >

> > " Hyperalert " , that's what Dr Cheney always believed.

> > What has recently drawn your attention to molds and yeasts?

> > -

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Edy Rayfield wrote:

> Hi , Well, I had a mold panal done - My doc suggested the

panal. To be honest with you I was kind of shocked at the numbers.

She said these alone could be making me as unwell as I am. <

I've been doing pure, all-out mold avoidance as described in Dr

Shoemakers book " Mold Warriors " .

It's the only thing that's really made a huge difference for me.

Haven't seen a CFSer yet who wasn't troubled by mold.

-

[Guest guest]

Hi, Edy, Ballady and the group.

Here's something I posted last January that may shed some light on

this issue:

" Hi, Nelly, Sue, Sheila and the group.

Thanks very much for posting this. It has really stimulated my

thinking about why Lyme disease is symptomatologically so similar to

CFS.

First, some review. As we all know, it has been terribly difficult

to do the differential diagnosis between Lyme disease and CFS. The

symptoms overlap considerably, and even the best of the lab tests do

not have the sensitivity and selectivity we would all like to see.

Symptoms are manifestations of the pathophysiology of a disease,

i.e. how the functioning of the body of the sick person is abnormal

as a result of the disease. Therefore, if we see that the symptoms

of two diseases are very similar, we should suspect that they must

have some aspects of pathophysiology in common.

Pathophysiology is intimately involved with abnnormal gene

expression in the cells of the sick person, because gene expression

is a reflection of how the cell is conducting its business, and the

misconduct of the business of the cell is pathophysiology.

Because of this, I was quite struck some time ago when Sheila

reported that Dr. Gow said in a recent talk that he had found that

the gene expression pattern in peripheral blood mononuclear cells

(monocytes and lymphocytes) is " identical " in CFS and Lyme disease.

This implies that the pathophysiology of these two disorders in

these cell types is the same. (Note that we can't say anything

about what's going on in other cell types in the body in these two

disorders from this work. There are no doubt different things that

happen in other cell types between Lyme and CFS, and so this is not

saying that the two are identical in every way. But in these

mononuclear cells, this is saying that the pathophysiology of the

two is the same.)

As you know, I am of the firm view that in at least a large subset

of CFS there is glutathione depletion. In another subset, it looks

as though there are genetic variations in the enzymes that make use

of glutathione (glutathione transferases and glutathione

peroxidases), and the results in terms of pathophysiology are much

the same, even though the first group has low glutathione, and the

second group may have elevated glutathione. In either subset, the

people do not have normal glutathione function.

As you also know, based on the work by the DAN! project in autism, I

now believe that the basic abnormalities in the biochemistry in

autism and CFS are the same or similar. The glutathione depletion

brings down the methylation cycle, and a vicious circle develops

that produces a host of problems because of the depletion of SAMe

(the main methylator in the body), cysteine, glutathione, taurine

and sulfate.

So, if the pathophysiology of CFS involves the inability to use

glutathione effectively, whether because glutathione itself is

depleted or because the enzymes that use it have below-normal

activity, and if the pathophysiology of CFS and Lyme are indeed

identical, then it follows that there must be a problem with the

glutathione system in Lyme disease as well.

With that introduction, let me now review some things I found in the

literature, including the paper to which you (Nelly) drew my

attention. I will give the PubMed ID numbers for the references

that support these statements.

(PMID 1477785) First, in in vitro experiments it has been found

that the growth of Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb), the bacterium that

causes Lyme disease, is decreased by 80% if cysteine is not present

in the culture medium.

(PMID 147785) It has been found that cysteine diffuses passively

into Bb, i.e. there is no active transporter protein that pumps it

into the bacterium.

(PMID 1477785) It has been found that Bb incorporates cysteine in

three of its proteins. One has a mass of 22 kilodaltons. The

others have been identified as outer surface protein A (Osp A), with

a mass of 30 kilodaltons, and outer surface protein B (Osp , with

a mass of 34 kilodaltons.

(PMID 1639493) Bb produces a water-soluble hemolysin. This is a

substance that is able to break down red blood cells and release

their hemoglobin. It is likely that this substance incorporates a

cysteine residue, and this cysteine must be in its reduced state in

order for the hemolysin to break down red blood cells.

(PMID 16390443) Bb does not produce glutathione, which is the

principal non-protein thiol (substance containing an S-H or

sulfhydryl group) in human cells. Instead, Bb cells have a high

concentration (about 1 millimolar) of reduced coenzyme A (CoASH).

Bb also produces a CoA disulfide reductase enzyme that has the

responsibility to keep CoASH in its chemically reduced form, so it

can function. This enzyme is in turn reduced by NADH (reduced

nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide), which is reduced by metabolism

of Bb's fuel. (This is analogous to glutathione reductase in human

cells, which requires NADPH, which in turn is reduced by the pentose

phosphate shunt on glycolysis, which metabolizes glucose as fuel.)

In Bb, CoASH is able to reduce hydrogen peroxide, as glutathione

peroxidase, together with glutathione, do in human cells.

(PMID 11687735) It has been found that when people were infected

with Bb and had the characteristic erythema migrans (bulls-eye

rash), the total thiol and glutathione in blood analysis were found

to be significantly decreased. The activity of glutathione

peroxidase was also significantly decreased. Malondialdehyde, a

marker for lipid peroxidation, was significantly elevated. After

antibiotic treatment with amoxycillin, which eliminated the acute

symptoms of Lyme disease, both the total thiol and the glutathione

levels recovered to normal. However, the glutathione peroxidase

activity was still significantly below normal, and the

malondialdehyde remained significantly elevated. This suggested

that Bb lowers the thiol and glutathione levels in its host, and

inhibits the activity of glutathione peroxidase.

I think this also suggests that while antibiotic therapy eliminates

acute Lyme symptoms and brings recovery of glutathione levels, the

Bb infection may still be suppressing the activity of glutathione

peroxidase, and this may be a mechanism involved in long-term (or

chronic or post-) Lyme disease.

One way in which a pathogen can inhibit its host's glutathione

peroxidase activity is to hoard selenium, because this is a cofactor

for that enzyme. You may recall that that is the mechanism that

Prof. Harry has hypothesized for HIV and AIDS

(http://www.hdfoster.com). I could not find any reference in the

literature connecting Bb and selenium, and I don't know whether

anyone has looked at that. Have any of you who are positive for

Lyme had your selenium level measured?

It seems pretty clear that Bb uses cysteine and that it depletes

glutathione and total thiol (which includes cysteine and protein

thiols as well as glutathione) in its host, at least in the acute

phase. It also suppresses the activity of glutathione peroxidase,

but I'm not sure whether it does it by lowering the host's selenium

level, or by some other means. This suppression appears as though

it could be chronic. I think there is a good chance that this

lowering of glutathione and/or suppressing of the activity of

glutathione peroxidase could very well be the explanation for the

similarities in symptomatology and the " identical " gene expression

in the peripheral blood mononuclear cells in CFS and Lyme disease.

It may also be that a host whose glutathione has been depleted by

other factors may be more vulnerable to developing Lyme disease,

once inoculated with Bb. I am speculating a little here, but this

is exciting!

If this is true, what are the consequences for treatment of long-

term Lyme disease, the subject that Sue raised? I think this

remains to be seen, but it does suggest that the DAN! autism

treatments may have a contribution to make in the treatment of long-

term Lyme disease as I've suggested that they also do in the

treatment of CFS. Before we can reach such a conclusion, though, I

think it behooves us to get more data on glutathione levels,

selenium levels, and glutathione peroxidase activity in people with

positive tests for long-term Lyme disease, as well as some

experience trying these treatments as part of the treatment of long-

term Lyme disease. I'm not suggesting that they would replace other

treatments for Lyme disease, such as antibiotic therapy, detoxing of

neurotoxins, or other approaches to deal with the bacteria

themselves or to deal with particular characteristics of Lyme

disease that are not found in autism or CFS. Nevertheless, these

treatments might make a significant impact. Time will tell. Thanks

for rattling my cage about this, Sheila, Sue and Nelly.

Rich

> >

> > Hi ,

> >

> > I was a bit taken aback by your statement below:

> >

> > > With all this suspicion that Lyme is at the bottom of

Alzheimers,

> > > MS and a number of other illnesses, saying that Lyme is CFS

sounds

> > > incompatible with the facts to someone with severe ME/CFS who

looks

> > > at all those Lyme sufferers who symptoms don't even remotely

> > > resemble that type of illness. Something must explain the

> > > difference.

> >

> > > -

> > >

> > From what I understand, I think what is being suggested is that

CFS is

> > a " symptom " of Lyme. But are you saying those with Lyme don't

have as

> > severe symptoms as those who have been diagnosed with CFS?

And/or are

> > you saying that the symptomology for Lyme and CFS are vastly

> > different? You might want to visit some Lyme boards to learn of

the

> > devasting symptoms that are being reported by most " lymies " but

you

> > would also hear how VERY similar those symtoms are to what is

being

> > labeled CFS. I have tested positive for Lyme. I also,

supposedly, have

> > had CFS for 14 years. After extensive research, I really see

little

> > difference except that one is " supposedly " due to a virus and the

> > other a spirochete.

> >

> > I only bring up this question CFS/Lyme because I think the

> > similarities in symptoms or the underlying relationship has not

been

> > adequately explored. I'm still exploring it myself.

> >

> > Ballady

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >