Re: help please with refusing Vit K and eye ointment

October 11, 2005

In a message dated 10/11/2005 7:47:15 A.M. Central Standard Time,

alison73@... writes:

What about substituting the vit K shot for the oral vit K?

CAn I ORDER this myself??? They said they cnt get it. I am not comfortable

with a home birth being a VBAC.

THANKS so much.

My best friend is an attorney- I am having her help me with my birth plan so

they KNOW I mean business.

Amy

October 11, 2005

In a message dated 10/11/2005 8:19:57 A.M. Central Standard Time,

mlam@... writes:

Although I can't help you with your question I was wondering if you

considered a birthing center?

Midwives are illegal in my state...there IS a birthing center about 30 min

from me in another state and I called them but they are supported by a hospital

and as much as they hate it they are not allowed to accept VBACS b/c of the

hospital.

Amy

October 11, 2005

In a message dated 10/11/2005 8:25:08 A.M. Central Standard Time,

alison73@... writes:

I could be wrong, but I just figured the oral K was a lesser evil than the

vaccine one. I'm due in December... and if that's wrong, someone enlighten me

so that I put no vit K at all in this baby!

we had a girl last year and we refused the Vit K all together.

Amy

October 11, 2005

What about substituting the vit K shot for the oral vit K? (there's no mercury

in that is there?)

And as for the eye ointment... tell them you know why they put it in the

newborn's eyes and tell them you don't have gonahrea (sp?) - of course, only if

you really don't have it...

Maybe tell them you'll sign whatever waivers they put before you to relieve them

of responsibility from the things you refuse.

For my births, I just signed stuff like that... I also had a CNM that helped me

have the birth I wanted.

Is there a way for you to have a homebirth if neither works?

Alison, extended breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby-wearing, non-vaccinating sahm

to 2 wonderful girls:

Calista (2-13-99) and Ursula (12-22-02)

and pregnant for a boy! (EDD: 12-27-05)

help please with refusing Vit K and eye ointment

I am due in less than 2 months. I am birthing at a new hospital 1 1/2 hours

out of town (b/c it is the closest one that will allow me to VBAC). I

called there today and was informed by a nurse in the nursery that since I

am

from out of town one of the neonatologists on call would be the baby dr. to

come

see our baby boy in the hospital...and that any of them would insist on the

Vit K injection, the eye ointment, the PKU testing, etc. . She said they ALL

follow the " standards " of care and will refuse to see our baby or even deal

with us if we dont follow them b/c its the law. What do I do? Can they

really make me do that- what does the law say and what are my rights? I am

so

frustrated. AS terrible as my birth was last time, the hospital at least

respected my wishes as far as all of this goes and let us refuse everything-

I

just put it in my birth plan and it was followed no questions asked.

I am in Alabama and here is a site about exemption but I cant tell what my

rights are

_Alabama Exemption Information_ (http://www.vaclib.org/exempt/alabama.htm)

CAn anyone help me decipher what all that info means?

Thanks,

Amy

October 11, 2005

Amy,

Although I can't help you with your question I was wondering if you

considered a birthing center? I wish I had known about them when I had my

son 20 months ago. They work with VBAC's and many have a high success rate

(one I contacted had a 90% success rate). Some have water birth option,

transport to the hosp. in case of emergency, and leniency regarding how the

baby is cared for after! Much more open to natural birth/parenting and the

parent child bond.

Good luck and congratulations!!

Lori

Norse Mewsic Norwegian Forest Cats

Natural cats reared naturally!

" I do not have to take a journey to find a shaman. I have a sage sitting on

my windowsill. " - Deborah Wood, " The Tao of Meow "

October 11, 2005

They can't get the oral vitamin K???

I live in a smallish city... more rural than urban and I gave birth in a

birthing tub in the local hospital and they gave my baby oral vitamin K and

didn't do the eye ointment... what I mean is that if a small town can get oral

K, why couldn't other places? I don't know how big your hospital's city is...

but, I don't see why they can't get it... esp. if you are giving them 2 mths'

notice!!!

Also, vitamin K was introduced to keep infant boys from bleeding to death due to

circumcisms... so, really, if you have a girl, she probably doesn't even need

it. I know, there are rare cases of babies that have internal bleeding the

brain or something like that that vitamin K helps with... but...

I could be wrong, but I just figured the oral K was a lesser evil than the

vaccine one. I'm due in December... and if that's wrong, someone enlighten me

so that I put no vit K at all in this baby!

Anyways, that's good that you have a lawyer friend helping you! For me, I went

over my birth plan with my CNM and she signed it and really helped in the

delivery room for things I had to sign or waive. And as far as a hospital

birth, I think things went really well Of course, I've been wanting a home

birth for over 7 yrs... lol Maybe this one will be an 'oops' and be born at

home since my 2nd baby came so fast... hehe

Alison, extended breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby-wearing, non-vaccinating sahm

to 2 wonderful girls:

Calista (2-13-99) and Ursula (12-22-02)

and pregnant for a boy! (EDD: 12-27-05)

----- Original Message -----

CAn I ORDER this myself??? They said they cnt get it. I am not comfortable

with a home birth being a VBAC.

THANKS so much.

My best friend is an attorney- I am having her help me with my birth plan so

they KNOW I mean business.

Amy

October 11, 2005

Amy, I realise that vaccines are mandated in the US but are Vit K and the

eye ointment also mandated?

From the link you have posted below, this seems appropriate:

" For those who are planning a hospital birth but want to evade invasive

routine post natal procedures such as a Hep B shot, vitamin K injection,

newborn screening, or the application of silver nitrate in the newborn's

eyes, a very specific birthing plan must be submitted to the hospital in

advance of the birth. Hospital staff must be informed, in advance, of your

needs, wants and desires where your baby and birthing experience are

concerned. The same applies to midwives. "

If you have a lawyer to help you with your birth plan, I'm sure you'll be

fine.

Love, light and peace,

Sue

> >

> >I am due in less than 2 months. I am birthing at a new

> >hospital 1 1/2 hours

> >out of town (b/c it is the closest one that will allow me to VBAC). I

> >called there today and was informed by a nurse in the nursery

> >that since I am

> >from out of town one of the neonatologists on call would be the

> >baby dr. to come

> >see our baby boy in the hospital...and that any of them would

> >insist on the

> >Vit K injection, the eye ointment, the PKU testing, etc. . She

> >said they ALL

> >follow the " standards " of care and will refuse to see our baby

> >or even deal

> >with us if we dont follow them b/c its the law. What do I do?

> >Can they

> >really make me do that- what does the law say and what are my

> >rights? I am so

> >frustrated. AS terrible as my birth was last time, the

> >hospital at least

> >respected my wishes as far as all of this goes and let us

> >refuse everything- I

> >just put it in my birth plan and it was followed no questions asked.

> >I am in Alabama and here is a site about exemption but I cant

> >tell what my

> >rights are

> >_Alabama Exemption Information_

> >(http://www.vaclib.org/exempt/alabama.htm)

> >CAn anyone help me decipher what all that info means?

> >Thanks,

> >Amy

> >

October 11, 2005

Vaccines are not mandate in the US. Every single state allows for some type

of exemption... Some states allow for only religious reasons but others

allow for personal or medical reasons.

Even if you have a signed birth plan, you must be on constant watch. I've

found the nurses are the worst. They are actually brainwashed, they think

they know best and they will often try to sneak in the Hep B shot and Vit.

K, thinking they are doing what's best for your child.

Most women who have strong objections often choose home birthing.

~Annette M. Hall

http://ReliableAnswers.com/med/

http://GloPops.com

Thou shalt not answer questionnaires Or quizzes upon world

affairs, Nor with compliance Take any test. Thou shalt not sit

with statisticians nor commit A social science.

-- Wystan Hugh Auden

___________________________

-----Original Message-----

Amy, I realise that vaccines are mandated in the US but are Vit K and the

eye ointment also mandated?

From the link you have posted below, this seems appropriate:

" For those who are planning a hospital birth but want to evade invasive

routine post natal procedures such as a Hep B shot, vitamin K injection,

newborn screening, or the application of silver nitrate in the newborn's

eyes, a very specific birthing plan must be submitted to the hospital in

advance of the birth. Hospital staff must be informed, in advance, of your

needs, wants and desires where your baby and birthing experience are

concerned. The same applies to midwives. "

October 11, 2005

Hi,

I don't know the specific laws in Alabama, but I will tell you that

nurse's job is to frighten you into complying. I created a birth plan

with my requests, but my doctor still had not read it after having it

for 12 weeks.

When I was in your shoes I joined every alternative birthing site I

could find and asked for help. I ended up changing care providers at

35 weeks (not for the faint of heart. lol). However, I had the best

birthing experience I could have imagined and my child did not receive

anything except what was mandated by law (the real laws, not what they

try to lie and tell us the law says).

Congratulations on your pregnancy and all the best with your decision.

Take care,

Josie

October 11, 2005

At 07:57 AM 10/11/2005 -0700, you wrote:

> Vaccines are not mandate in the US. Every single state allows for some type

>of exemption... Some states allow for only religious reasons but others

>allow for personal or medical reasons.

AND NO vaccines are mandated at birth, anywhere, though they make you think

they are.

The exemptions from the states are for school attendance vax mandates.

>

>Even if you have a signed birth plan, you must be on constant watch. I've

>found the nurses are the worst. They are actually brainwashed, they think

>they know best and they will often try to sneak in the Hep B shot and Vit.

>K, thinking they are doing what's best for your child.

>

>Most women who have strong objections often choose home birthing.

Yup,

Thanks Annette

Good to see you>

--------------------------------------------------------

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Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

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October 11, 2005

I am expecting soon too and can't find any websites with info on the vit k

shot(ie ingredients,side effects,etc) I see all the other vacs just not this

one. Anyone know of a good resouce for info on it?

Beth -GA

October 11, 2005

Amy,

If they're telling you it's the law, then have them prove it. If

they cannot, they are intentionally lying.

Check into the medical consent form that I assume all patients must

sign at admission. I haven't been through this and I can't remember

the last time I was ever admitted into a hospital, but I do hope to

spend time with this subject in the future since it's nothing but a

problem for all of us. Anyways, if you sign this form then modify it

and restrict your signature. The bottom line is that you want to be

the boss with the surgeon and all nurses obeying you. So with a

proper medical consent form in addition to a detailed birth plan

everything would seem like it should go alright. If trouble arises

and they refuse to let you and your child leave, then you could

rightfully bring kidnapping charges against the hospital. Another

overlooked matter by most is the State birth certificate and the ss#

that are forced as well. More unfortunate stress.

And in my opinion, along with many others I'm sure, is that you'd be

just fine birthing at home. Make friends with a true midwife and

when the day comes you would certainly want your friend to be there.

However you thank this friend for being so supportive is nobody's

business. If you feel safer being close to a hospital you could also

get yourself a nice, comfortable cargo van and be near to the

hospital and birth in the van with assistance. If all goes well,

then go home. If there's a real emergency, then you're right there

and your arrangements still apply. Just some easily said thoughts

Dan

October 11, 2005

Hello Amy,

It took me till my third delivery to get it ALL my way. My birth plan was

detailed and I talked it over with our midwife. Still you have to watch every

body and have some one see that your wishes are met. As for the vit k and new

born screening. Didn't have them. I called the Kentucky Cabinet for Health to

see what my rights were. They said I have the right to refuse any treatment for

myself or child (unless it's life threatening). Dealing with the ped on call at

the hospital was an entirely difference issue. I don't think he had a clue as

to our rights to refuse or postpone the New born screening. He put me through

HELL, then told my midwife " she does have the right to refuse " . With the vit k

he told me it was like putting my child in the car with out a seat belt. My

husband asked him if he had every seen a child with the bleeding disorder that

the vit k was meant help. He said yes. My husband believes he lied. The

stats, if I recall correctly, were 1/20,000 with the

bleeding disorder. Any way, good luck!

Camisha

Kentucky mom to Noah, and Tirzah

Algaveda@... wrote:

I am due in less than 2 months. I am birthing at a new hospital 1 1/2 hours

out of town (b/c it is the closest one that will allow me to VBAC). I

called there today and was informed by a nurse in the nursery that since I am

from out of town one of the neonatologists on call would be the baby dr. to

come

see our baby boy in the hospital...and that any of them would insist on the

Vit K injection, the eye ointment, the PKU testing, etc. . She said they ALL

follow the " standards " of care and will refuse to see our baby or even deal

with us if we dont follow them b/c its the law. What do I do? Can they

really make me do that- what does the law say and what are my rights? I am so

frustrated. AS terrible as my birth was last time, the hospital at least

respected my wishes as far as all of this goes and let us refuse everything- I

just put it in my birth plan and it was followed no questions asked.

I am in Alabama and here is a site about exemption but I cant tell what my

rights are

_Alabama Exemption Information_ (http://www.vaclib.org/exempt/alabama.htm)

CAn anyone help me decipher what all that info means?

Thanks,

Amy

October 11, 2005

In a message dated 10/11/2005 5:03:45 P.M. Central Standard Time,

vaccinegenocide@... writes:

Peer reviewed journals have linked large doses of vitamin K to

childhood cancers and leukemia.

So its not the injection that links the Vit K to cancer but the large doses

of it????????

October 11, 2005

http://poisonevercure.150m.com/vaccines/vitamin-k.htm

National standard mandates newborn vitamin K injection

Ignorance becomes tacit consent for the questionable neonatal

procedure

by Don Harkins

In cooperation with a " national standard, " most, if not all states

have mandated that U.S. hospitals routinely administer to all

newborns a synthetic, fat-soluble vitamin K injection (generic name

phytonadione) that exceeds an infant's recommended daily dietary

intake of the vitamin by 100 times.

Peer reviewed journals have linked large doses of vitamin K to

childhood cancers and leukemia. Animal studies have linked large

doses of vitamin K to a variety of conditions that include anemia,

liver damage, kidney damage and death.

" Little is known about the metabolic fate of vitamin K. Almost no

unmetabolized vitamin K appears in bile or urine, " states both the

1988 and 1998 Physician's Desk Reference (PDR). " This is especially

important due to the fact that it is a fat-soluble vitamin and

therefore can accumulate in the body, " wrote Vitamin K Resources

(VKR) in the extremely well-documented and footnoted 1999 article,

Intramuscular Vitamin K Injection: Is K OK? In the 1988 PDR Merck's

literature states that, " A single intramuscular dose of AquaMEPHYTON

(Merck brand vitamin K injection) 0.5 to 1 mg within

one hour of birth is recommended. "

Merck's 1998 PDR entry for AquaMEPHYTON has removed adverse reaction

liability from the pharmaceutical giant by stating, " The American

Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) recommends that Vitamin K1 be given to

the newborn. "

Vitamin K injections are ostensibly administered to newborns to

prevent vitamin K deficiency bleeding (such as hemophilia) that may

occur in approximately 1 in 10,000 live births. " This figure would

probably be much lower if high risk newborns were excluded [from

this figure], " wrote VKR.

Parents who wish to refuse the shot must do so in writing prior to

the birth of their baby. Parental ignorance of the state-mandated

injection is considered by hospitals as tacit consent authorizing

them to administer the potentially damaging synthetic vitamin dose

to newborns. Five post partem nurses from hospitals in Idaho,

Washington and Oregon stated that they " routinely administer vitamin

K injections to newborns, " as if all of them were reading from the

same script. According to a seasoned Sacred Heart Medical Center

(Spokane, WA), Birthplace nurse named Terri, " Routine vitamin K

injections are in cooperation with the federal standard. "

She also said that Washington hospitals are mandated by state code

to provide the injections to all newborns. Terri acknowledged that

parents who wish to refuse the shot must present the refusal to the

hospital in writing before the baby is born.

Scientists question intelligence of universal IM vitamin K

injections Dr. Louise was quoted in the British Medical

Journal in 1998 as stating, " It is not possible, on the basis of

currently published evidence, to refute the suggestion that neonatal

IM vitamin K administration increases the risk of early childhood

leukemia. " The British Journal of Cancer published " Factors

associated with childhood cancer " by J. Golding, et al, in 1990. The

report indicated that universally administered IM vitamin K

injections significantly increase our children's chances of

developing childhood cancer. A follow-up study published two years

later in the British Medical Journal reinforced the findings of the

previous study. The authors' comments, in keeping with scientific

style, are conservatively stated, but parents who are concerned

about the health of their babies will read " danger " between the

following lines: " The only two studies so far to have examined the

relation between childhood cancer and intramuscular vitamin K have

shown similar results and the relation is biologically plausible.

The prophylactic benefits against haemorrhagic disease are unlikely

to exceed the potential adverse effects from intramuscular vitamin

K... "

Both studies recommend that policies should be adopted to administer

IM vitamin K injections only to high risk babies. Babies who have

been identified as being at risk for vitamin K deficiency include

those born to mothers who took drugs or antibiotics during

pregnancy, premature babies and babies who are born cesarean.

Mothers who had maternity diets low in

high vitamin K foods or had diets that were low in fat have also

been identified as being more likely to bear vitamin K deficient

babies.

Naturopathic physicians and others who successfully adhere to a more

natural approach to healthcare advocate that high-risk mothers

should increase the amount of vitamin K available to the fetus

during pregnancy by eating adequate amounts of green leafy

vegetables. It is also recommended that mothers continue to eat

vitamin K rich foods after giving birth so that their infants will

receive the natural form of the vital vitamin through their breast

milk. As early as April 17, 1977, an article in one of the world's

most esteemed medical journals, the Lancet, discredited the policy

of routine vitamin K

injections. " We conclude that healthy babies, contrary to current

beliefs, are not likely to have a vitamin K deficiency....the

administration of vitamin K is not supported by our findings... " Van

Doorm, et al stated in the Lancet article.

VKR cited 21 peer-reviewed reports that had been published in

prominent medical journals. All of them concur that policies which

mandate the universal injection of newborn babies are not based in

sound science. There has been much peer-reviewed evidence generated

which questions the efficacy of routine vitamin K injections as

sound public health policy.

Why, then, since publication of the July, 1987 article in

Pediatrics " Health codes for newborns " when it was stated that only

five states required hospitals to administer neonatal vitamin K

injections, are they now mandated by most, if not all states?

Commonsensically, VKR poses the question, " ...how could God (or

nature) have erred so badly as to give all newborn babies only an

infinitesimal fraction of their required vitamin K? Surely the human

race could not have survived to this point if all newborns were born

with this deficiency and none being administered at birth until very

recently. "

Although there seems to be no evidence to support universal IM

vitamin K injections among the newborn from a public health

standpoint, the medical establishment, as informed by the Food and

Drug Administration, the AAP and as supplied by the pharmaceutical

companies such as Merck, Roche Laboratories and Abbott Laboratories,

continues to endorse state mandated, routine IM vitamin K injections.

Eye of newt, spleen of bat?

The body most readily utilizes vitamins and minerals that are found

in plants. The body less readily utilizes synthetic vitamins and

minerals. The vitamin K administered by hospitals to newborns is the

synthetic phytonadione. The natural forms of vitamin K that are

found in many foods, particularly in vegetables such as collard

greens, spinach, broccoli, asparagus, brussels sprouts and salad

greens, are called phylloquinone or menaquinone. Certain bacteria in

the intestinal tract also produce menaquinones.

The vitamin K injections administered by hospitals and manufactured

by Merck and Roche and Abbott are not only synthetic but, according

to the packet inserts and the PDR, contain benzyl alcohol as a

preservative. The 1989 PDR states that, " there is no evidence to

suggest that the small amount of benzyl alcohol contained in

AquaMEPHYTON (Merck's vitamin K

injection product), when used as recommended, is associated with

toxicity. "

Interestingly, in November, 1988, the French medical journal Dev

Pharmacol Ther published a paper regarding benzyl alcohol metabolism

and elimination in babies. The report stated that " ...we cannot

directly answer the issue of safety of `low doses' of benzyl alcohol

as found in some medications administered to neonates. This study

confirms the immaturity of the benzoic acid detoxification process

in premature newborns. "

The 1998 PDR still states, contrary to the published findings of

French scientists in 1988, " there is no evidence to suggest that... "

There has been little reason to study the toxicological effects of

benzyl alcohol over the last decade since state legislators have

provided synthetic vitamin K manufacturers with the guaranteed

marketplace of nearly every child born in a U.S. hospital.

Vitamin K injections manufactured as recently as 1995 contain

hydrochloric acid " for pH adjustment. " Roche's vitamin K product

KONAKION contains ingredients such as phenol (carbolic acid—a

poisonous substance distilled from coal tar), propylene glycol

(derived from petroleum and used as an antifreeze and in hydraulic

brake fluid) and acetic acid (an astringent antimicrobial agent that

may drastically reduce the amount of natural vitamin K that would

have otherwise been produced in the digestive tract). As reported in

the PDR and as published in the IM vitamin K packet inserts

for Merck, Roche and Abbott, " Studies of carcinogenicity,

mutagenesis or impairment of fertility have not been conducted with

Vitamin K1 Injection (Phytonadione Injection, USP). "

The purpose of this article is to alert expectant parents that their

ignorance of federally-suggested, state mandated hospital policy is

enough assent to authorize health care professionals to administer

what may be a lethal or damaging overdose of a synthetic substance

that comes with the following warning from the

manufacturers: " Severe reactions, including fatalities, have

occurred during and immediately after INTRAVENOUS injection of

phytonadione even when precautions have been taken to dilute the

vitamin and avoid rapid infusion... "

Please pass the preceeding information onto anybody you know who is

expecting a baby. Afterall, we have the right to know what

substances are being injected into our babies within the first hour

of their lives. If we feel that a substance may be injurious to our

baby, we have the right to refuse it.

Don Harkins is the editor of The Idaho Observer

www.proliberty.com/observer

October 11, 2005

In a message dated 10/11/2005 9:59:40 A.M. Central Standard Time,

mum2mishka@... writes:

If you have a lawyer to help you with your birth plan, I'm sure you'll be

fine.

I hope so b/c if they do not follow it I will sue them, lol

October 12, 2005

We brought our birth plan with us to the hospital and no one read it

either. One nurse pretended to but then kept asking us questions which

were answered in the plan. Our nurse midwife knew we didn't want any

shots, drops, sticks, etc and my husband stood next to the baby after

she was born and almost made them stop giving her a bath even! LOL!

We didn't let her out of our sight because I didn't want some

controlling nurse who thought she knew more than me making decisions on

her own, then we high tailed it out of the hospital about 12 hours

after the birth. They weren't too bad about us saying no to stuff, the

peditrician either, but they did try to talk me out of leaving and

wanted to keep the baby in the nursery.

Just be firm, if they sense any hesitancy they will exploit it and try

to guilt/bully you into changing your mind.

Lynette

October 12, 2005

Good point - don't let the baby out of your sight. If they want to take it

away have your partner or relative/friend go with the baby and be with her

all the time. We didn't have this problem as the birthing center I was at

does not take them out of the room unless they are going into the infant

care unit.

C

_____

From: Vaccinations [mailto:Vaccinations ] On

Behalf Of lysisdane

Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 11:39 PM

Vaccinations

Subject: Re: help please with refusing Vit K and eye ointment