RE: Re: Hiding that come-on-and-bite-me smell

[Guest guest]

I would tend to think that if you are worried about 'other' insects, then conventional treatments such as permethrins and OFF would work fine. My parents live in the country, and I went there for a bond fire, and wiith OFF, I had no bites. Usually all bugs absolutely love my blood, mosquitoes, ticks, and chiggers.I don't know if you were referring to mites or other insects vscribe, but this was my recent experience and these symptoms vary so much Sara that I can only speak for myself. However, if you are wanting to deter unknown species of mites like the ones stalking this forum I can only speculate that the likelyhood of attack is pretty low in the country. There are plenty other creatures to feed on, and I believe infestations start with animal vectors in the home first, which produce obscenely large amounts of mites

which innundate the home and cannot be exterminated. Then they internalize.BTW a hormone is a signaling molecule that is secreted into the bloodstream, kinda like a pheremone is a signaling molecule secreted outside an organism's body that elicits a response in another organism. However I do find it extremely weird that a mite would have any advantage signaling other insects, or by what mechanism insects could 'learn' to pick up on mite signals. From: vscribe@... <vscribe@...>Subject: Re: Hiding that come-on-and-bite-me smellbird mites Date: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 7:44 PM

"Is there anything I could take or put on my skin to keep the insects

away or hide the pheromone smell short term? Something easily available." This is the question of the century! I've yet to find any short-term pheromone solutions. For all I know, more than pheromones are involved anyway.

The best repellent I've tried so far is menthol. For the hot weather, you could try adding some melted menthol crystals to a thick body balm. A thick, beeswax-based balm will be less likely to melt in the hot weather. I have a balm recipe if you're interested. If you don't have time to make your own balm I've heard Badger makes a great bug repellent balm. It has a nice, thick consistency as well. I've tried mosquito spray repellents and they didn't do jack for me. You could also slather yourself down with peppermint oil, but mix with a carrier oil (anything you like: almond, olive, jojoba oil, etc.) otherwise it's too strong. Only problem is you need to keep applying this stuff every so often, unlike the balm.

>

>

> Urgent advice please. I am hoping to spend a day in the countryside this

> weekend if the weather is ok. This is important to me because I have no

> life at all anymore and really would like a good day. However I am

> worried that all the insects in the area will target me since I read

> about the pheromone the dastardly mites leave in/on our skin.

>

> Is there anything I could take or put on my skin to keep the insects

> away or hide the pheromone smell short term? Something easily available.

> Just ordinary insect repellent, would that work?

>

> I have been bitten outside the home, but it feels like mite bites and I

> usually assume it is "my" mites that are biting me. Although I have felt

> "colonies" of mites in hospitals and on buses. Also recently, with the

> warmer weather, they seem to bite more if I am hot from

> walking/carrying shopping, as if the heat and sweat excites them.

>

> All suggestions gratefully received!

>

[Guest guest]

I get tickled when I think of pheromones as sending a kinder gentler sharing sort of signal.

Somehow I doubt that. I think pheromones say, "Chicks welcome, dudes show up at own risk!" To which I suspect the respective gender replies "mite" be, and this of course assumes (possibly inaccurately) that other species besides humans compete with mates for sex and duke it out on a fairly regular basis:

Guy critters: "Oh yeah? We'll see about that."

Gal critters: "Oh YEAH! I'm on my way, sugar!"

katie

From: vscriberocketmail (DOT) com <vscriberocketmail (DOT) com>Subject: Re: Hiding that come-on-and- bite-me smellbird mitesDate: Thursday, April 16, 2009, 7:44 PM

"Is there anything I could take or put on my skin to keep the insectsaway or hide the pheromone smell short term? Something easily available." This is the question of the century! I've yet to find any short-term pheromone solutions. For all I know, more than pheromones are involved anyway. The best repellent I've tried so far is menthol. For the hot weather, you could try adding some melted menthol crystals to a thick body balm. A thick, beeswax-based balm will be less likely to melt in the hot weather. I have a balm recipe if you're interested. If you don't have time to make your own balm I've heard Badger makes a great bug repellent balm. It has a nice, thick consistency as well. I've tried mosquito spray repellents and they didn't do jack for me. You could also slather yourself down with peppermint oil, but mix with a carrier oil (anything you like: almond, olive, jojoba oil, etc.) otherwise it's too strong. Only problem is you need

to keep applying this stuff every so often, unlike the balm. >> > Urgent advice please. I am hoping to spend a day in the countryside this> weekend if the weather is ok. This is important to me because I have no> life at all anymore and really would like a good day. However I am> worried that all the insects in the area will target me since I read> about the pheromone the dastardly mites leave in/on our skin.> > Is there anything I could take or put on my skin to keep the insects> away or hide the pheromone smell short term? Something easily available.> Just ordinary insect repellent, would that work?> > I have

been bitten outside the home, but it feels like mite bites and I> usually assume it is "my" mites that are biting me. Although I have felt> "colonies" of mites in hospitals and on buses. Also recently, with the> warmer weather, they seem to bite more if I am hot from> walking/carrying shopping, as if the heat and sweat excites them.> > All suggestions gratefully received! >

[Guest guest]

I 'googled' tobacco as insecticide, ancient uses of tobacco as insecticide,

and a few others and got tons of information about how the ancient people of

South and North America used tobacco as an insecticide--many indigineous people

carried a pouch of it around their necks. And-----since I put an entire pouch of it

inside my sheets, between the matresses, in my furniture, on rugs, rubbed it into

the dogs fur, in my chickens nests, even in my hair!---with results in 2 days--

I'm convinced that the Native Americans truly have a reason to call it

Sacred Tobacco.

!!

***

I have a very strong jewelers magnifying glass. The red mites have blood in them.

They turn black when they die. Get a magnifying glass. Toss some tobacco in your

car--on the seats, between the sheets, in your drawers, I even put my down jacket

inside a plastic bag with tobacco for a few days--and it worked.

You have nothing to loose, at least if you want to try it. I'm not exaggerating--they were all

gone in 2 days.

I'm worried that there may be some other kind of mite that comes from squirrels or animals

that are said to be bird mites, but that are something more horrible. I think if tobacco

works for my bird mites, they might work for all mites. I guess we'll have to see.

Karla

K.SachiP.O. Box 249Honaunau HI 96726sachiart@...www.esachi.com (Art) Join ChristianMingle.com® FREE! Meet Christian Singles in your area. Start now!

[Guest guest]

Heck I'm willing to toss a bit of tobacco around,in fact think i will put it in

the car,sheets,sachets in my drawers(chest of drawers that is)A bag of rolling

tobacco can't cost that much!!

--- vscribe@... wrote:

From: vscribe@... <no_reply >

bird mites

Subject: Re: Hiding that come-on-and-bite-me smell

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 07:14:23 -0000

Yes. My cursory research suggests the efficacy of Nicotine Sulfate as

significantly higher than other insecticides (barring the great DDT, of course).

But like all insecticides of high efficacy, these elixirs soon find their way

out the politically incorrect back door, as it were. Heck, even my useless PCO

could attest to this trivial fact. That being said, light up, and screw those

who would keep you shackled to mites and snake oil.

> >

> > I 'googled' tobacco as insecticide, ancient uses of tobacco as

> > insecticide,

> > and a few others and got tons of information about how the ancient people

> > of

> > South and North America used tobacco as an insecticide--many indigineous

> > people

> > carried a pouch of it around their necks. And-----since I put an entire

> > pouch of it

> > inside my sheets, between the matresses, in my furniture, on rugs, rubbed

> > it into

> > the dogs fur, in my chickens nests, even in my hair!---with results in 2

> > days--

> > I'm convinced that the Native Americans truly have a reason to call it

> > Sacred Tobacco.

> > !!

> >

> > ***

> >

> >

> > I have a very strong jewelers magnifying glass. The red mites have blood

> > in them.

> > They turn black when they die. Get a magnifying glass. Toss some tobacco

> > in your

> > car--on the seats, between the sheets, in your drawers, I even put my down

> > jacket

> > inside a plastic bag with tobacco for a few days--and it worked.

> > You have nothing to loose, at least if you want to try it. I'm not

> > exaggerating--they were all

> > gone in 2 days.

> >

> > I'm worried that there may be some other kind of mite that comes from

> > squirrels or animals

> > that are said to be bird mites, but that are something more horrible. I

> > think if tobacco

> > works for my bird mites, they might work for all mites. I guess we'll

> > have to see.

> >

> >

> >

> > Karla

> >

> >

> > K.Sachi

> > P.O. Box 249

> > Honaunau HI 96726

> > _sachiart@_ (mailto:sachiart@)

> > _www.esachi.com (Art)_ (http://www.esachi.com%20(art)/)

> > (http://sachiart.com/show_cat.php?id=13 & title=Originals)

> >

> > **************Join ChristianMingle.com® FREE! Meet Christian Singles in

> > your area. Start now!

> >

(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221246370x1201421635/aol?redir=http://\

www.christianmingle.com/campaign.html?cat=adbuy & src=pl

> > atforma & adid=aolfooter & newurl=reg_path.html)

> >

>

[Guest guest]

, let us know your results!

Vscribe, this is very interesting. I used to take caffeine pills to keep me up for expedition, adventure races that would require you to stay up and race for two nights in a row. Maybe such caffeine pills could be bought and crushed, and the powder be used as a repellant.

-requireshelp

From: Rose <rosebanks@...>bird mites Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 4:08:34 AMSubject: Re: Re: Hiding that come-on-and-bite-me smell

Heck I'm willing to toss a bit of tobacco around,in fact think i will put it in the car,sheets,sachets in my drawers(chest of drawers that is)A bag of rolling tobacco can't cost that much!! --- vscriberocketmail (DOT) com wrote: From: vscriberocketmail (DOT) com <no_reply@group s.com> bird mites Subject: Re: Hiding that come-on-and- bite-me smell Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 07:14:23 -0000 Yes. My cursory research

suggests the efficacy of Nicotine Sulfate as significantly higher than other insecticides (barring the great DDT, of course). But like all insecticides of high efficacy, these elixirs soon find their way out the politically incorrect back door, as it were. Heck, even my useless PCO could attest to this trivial fact. That being said, light up, and screw those who would keep you shackled to mites and snake oil. > > > > I 'googled' tobacco as insecticide, ancient uses of tobacco as > > insecticide, > > and a few others and got tons of information about how the ancient people > > of > > South and North America used tobacco as an insecticide- -many indigineous > > people > > carried a pouch of it around their necks. And-----since I put an entire > > pouch of it > > inside my sheets, between the matresses, in my furniture, on rugs, rubbed > > it into > > the dogs fur, in my chickens nests, even in my hair!---with results in 2 > > days-- > > I'm convinced that the Native Americans truly have a reason to call it > > Sacred Tobacco. > > !!

> > > > *** > > > > > > I have a very strong jewelers magnifying glass. The red mites have blood > > in them. > > They turn black when they die. Get a magnifying glass. Toss some tobacco > > in your > > car--on the seats, between the sheets, in your drawers, I even put my down > > jacket > > inside a plastic bag with tobacco for a few days--and it worked. > > You have nothing to loose, at least if you want to try it. I'm not > > exaggerating- -they were all > > gone in 2 days. > > > > I'm worried that there may be some other kind of mite that comes from > > squirrels or animals > > that are said to be bird mites, but that are something more horrible. I > > think if tobacco > > works for my bird mites, they might work for all mites. I guess we'll >

> have to see. > > > > > > > > Karla > > > > > > K.Sachi > > P.O. Box 249 > > Honaunau HI 96726 > > _sachiart@_ (mailto:sachiart@ ) > > _www.esachi. com (Art)_ (http://www.esachi. com%20(art)/) > > (http://sachiart. com/show_ cat.php?id= 13 & title= Originals) > > > > ************ **Join ChristianMingle. com® FREE! Meet Christian Singles in > > your area. Start now! > > (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122124 6370x1201421635/ aol?redir=

http://www. christianmingle. com/campaign. html?cat= adbuy & src= pl > > atforma & adid= aolfooter & newurl=reg_ path.html) > > >

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[Guest guest]

Caffeine pills scares me a little,Being a M. patient have a new respect for my

skin as a sponge more or less,I'd be afraid you'd get a high dose through your

skin,Plus I don't know if those little mites wouldn't get a bit wired and bite

you more,Tobacco is kind of a known in the sense that it's Used as " medicine " in

tribal culture...I wasn't planning on getting it too close to my skin..more like

all over the mattress

--- requireshelp@... wrote:

From: J S <requireshelp@...>

bird mites

Subject: Re: Re: Hiding that come-on-and-bite-me smell

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 04:23:06 -0700 (PDT)

, let us know your results!

Vscribe, this is very interesting.  I used to take caffeine pills to keep me up

for expedition, adventure races that would require you to stay up and race for

two nights in a row.  Maybe such caffeine pills could be bought and crushed,

and the powder be used as a repellant.

-requireshelp

 

________________________________

From: Rose <rosebanks@...>

bird mites

Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 4:08:34 AM

Subject: Re: Re: Hiding that come-on-and-bite-me smell

Heck I'm willing to toss a bit of tobacco around,in fact think i will put it in

the car,sheets,sachets in my drawers(chest of drawers that is)A bag of rolling

tobacco can't cost that much!!

--- vscriberocketmail (DOT) com wrote:

From: vscriberocketmail (DOT) com <no_reply@group s.com>

bird mites

Subject: Re: Hiding that come-on-and- bite-me smell

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 07:14:23 -0000

Yes. My cursory research suggests the efficacy of Nicotine Sulfate as

significantly higher than other insecticides (barring the great DDT, of course).

But like all insecticides of high efficacy, these elixirs soon find their way

out the politically incorrect back door, as it were. Heck, even my useless PCO

could attest to this trivial fact. That being said, light up, and screw those

who would keep you shackled to mites and snake oil.

> >

> > I 'googled' tobacco as insecticide, ancient uses of tobacco as

> > insecticide,

> > and a few others and got tons of information about how the ancient people

> > of

> > South and North America used tobacco as an insecticide- -many indigineous

> > people

> > carried a pouch of it around their necks. And-----since I put an entire

> > pouch of it

> > inside my sheets, between the matresses, in my furniture, on rugs, rubbed

> > it into

> > the dogs fur, in my chickens nests, even in my hair!---with results in 2

> > days--

> > I'm convinced that the Native Americans truly have a reason to call it

> > Sacred Tobacco.

> > !!

> >

> > ***

> >

> >

> > I have a very strong jewelers magnifying glass. The red mites have blood

> > in them.

> > They turn black when they die. Get a magnifying glass. Toss some tobacco

> > in your

> > car--on the seats, between the sheets, in your drawers, I even put my down

> > jacket

> > inside a plastic bag with tobacco for a few days--and it worked.

> > You have nothing to loose, at least if you want to try it. I'm not

> > exaggerating- -they were all

> > gone in 2 days.

> >

> > I'm worried that there may be some other kind of mite that comes from

> > squirrels or animals

> > that are said to be bird mites, but that are something more horrible. I

> > think if tobacco

> > works for my bird mites, they might work for all mites. I guess we'll

> > have to see.

> >

> >

> >

> > Karla

> >

> >

> > K.Sachi

> > P.O. Box 249

> > Honaunau HI 96726

> > _sachiart@_ (mailto:sachiart@ )

> > _www.esachi. com (Art)_ (http://www.esachi. com%20(art)/)

> > (http://sachiart. com/show_ cat.php?id= 13 & title= Originals)

> >

> > ************ **Join ChristianMingle. com® FREE! Meet Christian Singles in

> > your area. Start now!

> > (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122124 6370x1201421635/

aol?redir= http://www. christianmingle. com/campaign. html?cat= adbuy & src= pl

> > atforma & adid= aolfooter & newurl=reg_ path.html)

> >

>

__________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

For me, since my level of desperation is pretty low, I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing but add tobacco to the top of my critter research list. I do remember this, though:

Mom used to apply cigarette tobacco to bee stings to draw out the toxins.

The pain would cease at once. Then she would use tweezers to remove any remaining portion of the stinger. I never asked what she did with the bee...

kj

From: vscriberocketmail (DOT) com <no_reply@grou p s.com> bird mites Subject: Re: Hiding that come-on-and- bite-me smell Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 07:14:23 -0000 Yes. My cursory research suggests the efficacy of Nicotine Sulfate as significantly higher than other insecticides (barring the great DDT, of course). But like all insecticides of high efficacy, these elixirs soon find their way out the politically incorrect back door, as

it were. Heck, even my useless PCO could attest to this trivial fact. That being said, light up, and screw those who would keep you shackled to mites and snake oil. > > > > I 'googled' tobacco as insecticide, ancient uses of tobacco as > > insecticide, > > and a few others and got tons of information about how the ancient people > > of > > South and North America used tobacco as an insecticide- -many indigineous > > people > > carried a pouch of it

around their necks. And-----since I put an entire > > pouch of it > > inside my sheets, between the matresses, in my furniture, on rugs, rubbed > > it into > > the dogs fur, in my chickens nests, even in my hair!---with results in 2 > > days-- > > I'm convinced that the Native Americans truly have a reason to call it > > Sacred Tobacco. > > !! > > > > *** > > > > > > I have a very strong jewelers magnifying glass. The red mites have blood > > in them. > > They turn black when they die. Get a magnifying glass. Toss some tobacco > > in your > > car--on the seats, between the sheets, in your drawers, I even put my down > > jacket > > inside a plastic bag with tobacco for a few days--and it worked. > > You have nothing to loose, at least if you want to try it.

I'm not > > exaggerating- -they were all > > gone in 2 days. > > > > I'm worried that there may be some other kind of mite that comes from > > squirrels or animals > > that are said to be bird mites, but that are something more horrible. I > > think if tobacco > > works for my bird mites, they might work for all mites. I guess we'll > > have to see. > > > > > > > > Karla > > > > > > K.Sachi > > P.O. Box 249 > > Honaunau HI 96726 > > _sachiart@_ (mailto:sachiart@ ) > > _www.esachi. com (Art)_ (http://www.esachi. com%20(art)/ ) > > (http://sachiart. com/show_ cat.php?id= 13 & title= Originals) > > > >

************ **Join ChristianMingle. com® FREE! Meet Christian Singles in > > your area. Start now! > > (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122124 6370x1201421635/ aol?redir= http://www. christianmingle. com/campaign. html?cat= adbuy & src= pl > > atforma & adid= aolfooter & newurl=reg_ path.html) > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _ Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new . Click on Options in Mail and switch to New Mail today or register for free at http://mail. .ca

[Guest guest]

Well you know I slept with tobacco under the sheets so I might be a bit

odd,Pls.recosider the Adolph's...PLS.PlS....I believe it is straight MSG!! The

stuff that makes people violently ill...Aren't We All tender enuf by now???lol

--- bessieglavas@... wrote:

From: " Bessie Glavas " <bessieglavas@...>

bird mites

Subject: Re: Hiding that come-on-and-bite-me smell

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:29:42 -0000

A bit off-topic, but you reminded me that Adolf's meat tenderizer was a great

treatment for insect bites/stings. It is enzymes, and they seem to be helpful

to these conditions - on lesions, skin, diet, and in the environment. Might try

some in the bathtub!

Bessie

> > >

> > > I 'googled' tobacco as insecticide, ancient uses of tobacco as

> > > insecticide,

> > > and a few others and got tons of information about how the ancient people

> > > of

> > > South and North America used tobacco as an insecticide- -many indigineous

> > > people

> > > carried a pouch of it around their necks. And-----since I put an entire

> > > pouch of it

> > > inside my sheets, between the matresses, in my furniture, on rugs, rubbed

> > > it into

> > > the dogs fur, in my chickens nests, even in my hair!---with results in 2

> > > days--

> > > I'm convinced that the Native Americans truly have a reason to call it

> > > Sacred Tobacco.

> > > !!

> > >

> > > ***

> > >

> > >

> > > I have a very strong jewelers magnifying glass. The red mites have blood

> > > in them.

> > > They turn black when they die. Get a magnifying glass. Toss some tobacco

> > > in your

> > > car--on the seats, between the sheets, in your drawers, I even put my down

> > > jacket

> > > inside a plastic bag with tobacco for a few days--and it worked.

> > > You have nothing to loose, at least if you want to try it. I'm not

> > > exaggerating- -they were all

> > > gone in 2 days.

> > >

> > > I'm worried that there may be some other kind of mite that comes from

> > > squirrels or animals

> > > that are said to be bird mites, but that are something more horrible. I

> > > think if tobacco

> > > works for my bird mites, they might work for all mites. I guess we'll

> > > have to see.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Karla

> > >

> > >

> > > K.Sachi

> > > P.O. Box 249

> > > Honaunau HI 96726

> > > _sachiart@_ (mailto:sachiart@ )

> > > _www.esachi. com (Art)_ (http://www.esachi. com%20(art)/ )

> > > (http://sachiart. com/show_ cat.php?id= 13 & title= Originals)

> > >

> > > ************ **Join ChristianMingle. com® FREE! Meet Christian Singles in

> > > your area. Start now!

> > > (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122124 6370x1201421635/

aol?redir= http://www. christianmingle. com/campaign. html?cat= adbuy & src= pl

> > > atforma & adid= aolfooter & newurl=reg_ path.html)

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

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>

[Guest guest]

I still have a gallon of the safe2use ECP. The meat tenderizer is a protease,

that is, an enzyme that dissolves protein, and whose action is greatly speeded

up and multiplied by the peppermint. However, although the ECP always stops

biting and activity in general in the short run, as we now know, some of our

critters & #39; exoskeletons are not made of protein, but are more like seashells,

which are made of chitin. So then I wondered about what chitin is made of and

what might dissolve it. Calcium, phosphorus, vitamin D, these are all in

seashells. So I thought what can dissolve these things? And then I thought, what

have I craved for years now and wondered why? MILK. So I have been

experimenting. Milk dissolves some samples but not all. Why? That is one of the

hypotheses I am testing now. I shared my theories on chitin and milk with Willow

when I first started thinking on these lines and she mentioned milk and molasses

being used to treat plant

fungus. Then, she mentioned Worm Gold, a plant food that is also a chitinase,

that is, it is an enzyme that dissolves chitin. We got some samples and have

been testing them. The Worm Gold is doing some things it was never intended to

do, and which the manufacturer neither claimed nor expected from his humble

plant food. I & #39;ll post more when I know more. Have to think how to design a

valid test for tobacco. katie

Bessie Glavas wrote:

> Think I'll get some and have it on hand... >       A bit off-topic,

but you reminded me that Adolf's meat tenderizer was a great treatment for

insect bites/stings.  It is enzymes, and they seem to be helpful to these

conditions - on lesions, skin, diet, and in the environment.  Might try some in

the bathtub! > Bessie > >> >

> >> > > I 'googled' tobacco as insecticide,

> ancient uses of tobacco as >> > > insecticide, >> > > and a few others and

got tons of information about how the ancient people >> > > of >> > > South and

North America used tobacco as an insecticide- -many indigineous >> > > people >>

> > carried a pouch of it around their necks. And-----since I put an entire >> >

> pouch of it >> > > inside my sheets, between the matresses, in my furniture,

on rugs, rubbed >> > > it into >> > > the dogs fur, in my chickens nests, even

in my hair!---with results in 2 >> > > days-- >> > > I'm convinced that the

Native Americans truly have a reason to call it >> > > Sacred Tobacco. >> > > !!

>> > > >> > > *** >> > > >> > > >>

> > > I have a very strong jewelers magnifying glass. The red mites have blood

>> > > in them. >> > > They turn black when they die. Get a magnifying glass.

Toss some tobacco >> > > in your >> > > car--on the seats, between the sheets,

in your drawers, I even put my down >> > > jacket >> > > inside a plastic bag

with tobacco for a few days--and it worked. >> > > You have nothing to loose, at

least if you want to try it. I'm not >> > > exaggerating- -they were all >> > >

gone in 2 days. >> > > >> > > I'm worried that there may be some other kind of

mite that comes from >> > > squirrels or animals >> > > that are said to be bird

mites, but that are something more horrible. I >> > > think if tobacco >> > >

works for

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