bench press

[Guest guest]

I have the same problem. Slow and steady is my approach. push the muscle

to the max, slow the tempo, practice perfect form. If you have a partner,

negative reps help. Then it is nutrition and recovery. If you are in major

fat loss mode you will sacrifice some strength gains. Throw in another set

of six at your heaviest weight now and then after you have mastered that

weight and can lift it safely. Let us know how it goes! Kit

[Guest guest]

I wasn't just requoting myself. That was just the conclusion. Westside

training does not use bench shirts except in competition. It also never

involves the benchpress in full range of motion on any day other than

speed day when less than 60% of the maximum is used and generally, some

sort of accomodating resistance is used to overload the top.

How do I account for the bottom of the bench press? With a bench shirt.

I would have made this clear but I thought it was since I was talking

about being a competetive powerlifter TODAY. Kaz was a magnificent

bencher but his results don't bear that much meaning today. Granted the

shirt that I use doesn't help all THAT much but the denims used in US

federations help insanely. I can't count how many times I've heard of a

guy benching 750 lbs, locking it out no problem but the lift doesn't

pass because he wasn't strong enough to pull it down to his chest.

Today, the benchpress is about speed and triceps. You said you visited

westside, have you ever see them do any chest work? Or work the anterior

delts with ANY kind of seriousness? (maybe 3 sets of 10 of front

raises?) Have you seen them work the triceps? Oh yeah, four times a

week! I never said triceps are the only muscle used in the benchpress,

I'm not an idiot (lets assume it). I said it is the most important.

Other muscles are involved but nothing makes or breaks your bench like

the triceps.

A lot of people will knock the bench today. Kaz was quoted himself

saying that " today's bench is not bench, it's something else, when I did

661 it was different. " Well yeah man, it is different but put on any

kind of bench shirt, you think you can beat 's 800? It might help

off the bottom but if your triceps aren't strong enough, it doesn't

matter.

I'm not saying that we should ignore his research. Louie is the first to

admit that you make your competition bench stronger by making your raw

bench stronger (this applies especially to the closegrip though).

Triceps are the most important muscle in the benchpress. :-) I guess I

could have reiterated that I am talking about the competitive bench but

I thought it was clear since at no time during my discussion of the

bench did I hint that I was talking about anything different.

[somehow I gather the impression that, even in the face of all the scientific

and practical evidence in the world, unless it agrees with your opinions, you

will refuse to accept that anyone else's views may ever be correct. All that

remains now is for you to have EMGs taken while YOU and no other weakling

like Kazmaier or Bridges is bench pressing and find out for yourself - that is

your homework for now. Until then, hold thy peace or produce YOUR

evidence. Mel Siff]

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

--------------------

Mel Siff:

<<...read the research by Dr McLaughlin in his book, " Bench Press More Now "

or read through other articles in several journals of EMGs taken of the arm

and chest muscles during the bench press. Your anecdotal comments, feelings

and advice from others do not offer any scientific validation of your claims.

>>

Dmitry Voronov wrote:

<The only things I want to say in response are: 1) How much do you

want to

bet that Dr McLaughlin didn't do any research with bench shirt

benchers 2)

The bench can be done 100 different ways. Each one changes the muscle

stress.

I'm willing to bet that his studies were done with test subjects

bringing the

bar down to their chest and flaring out their elbows. Anecdotal or

not,

here's my scientific evidence: keeping my upper back tight, tucking my

elbows, bringing the bar to my upper abs and concentrating my training

on

triceps has increased my bench 30%. The triceps are the most important

muscle

in the benchpress.>

*** We are all well aware that the bench press can be done in 103.76

different ways. Dr McL certainly did not analyse lifts with

bench-shirted

lifters because at that time such shirts were illegal, but all

subjects were

tested under exactly the same shirtless conditions. Anyway, when I

have

visited Westside I did not see Louie and company training with bench

shirts

all the time, so the results from unshirted research should still be

of some

relevance.

Ah well, I suppose that we really should discard all that useless

research by

Dr Tom McLaughlin because he analysed only about 50 of the world's

best

powerlifters at that time, including Bill Kazmaier, Crain, Pacifico,

Mike

Bridges, Cole, , Kenady, Fred Hatfield, Woods, Anello,

Frantz,

, Iams, Young and many others. These were no mere " test guinea

pigs " ,

but among the world's best at the time. Instead of rushing in where

angels

fear to tread, I would suggest that you check your facts first.

Scientist

that he is, Dr McL clearly acknowledged any limitations of his work

and

stated that he by no means has answered all of the questions

concerning all

methods of shirted and unshirted benching. However, what he did

served as a

pioneering and useful guide.

If the triceps are the " most important " muscles, how would you suggest

that they act in the lowest position

of the bench press? This is at a position which requires strong

adduction of

the (upper) arms - note well that the triceps do not cross the

shoulder joint

and simply cannot produce this adduction. Incidentally I, and many

other

scientists, have carried out many EMGs of muscles involved in the

bench press

and have always been struck by the fact that the deltoids play a huge

role

throughout the movement.

Let me quote the findings by Dr McL and other scientists in this

regard

(references cited in DrMcLaughin's book):

1. The anterior deltoid is near maximally involved during the entire

lift,

using any style of bench pressing.

2. Triceps involvement is so large near the top of the movement that

it is

the limiting factor in this region.

3. During the phase from just off the chest to about halfway to

two-thirds

of the way up, pectoralis major is the limiting factor and is the most

involved muscle

4. The anterior deltoids using wide and narrow grips are near

maximally

involved during the entire lift, using any style.

5. A wide grip keeps pectoralis major at a greater length longer

during the

lift and permits the muscle to be of more help to successful

completion of

the lift.

6. A narrow grip involves the triceps more and pectoralis major less.

Anyway, it is nonsense and spurious to talk about any " most important "

muscle in any movement,

because all movement involves the synergistic action of many

stabilising and mobilising muscle

groups. If any one muscle is deficient or injured, your lift will

suffer seriously. Each muscle

changes its percentage contribution to a given movement as the joint

angles change, so that the triceps

may dominate during one stage, but other muscles will dominate at

other stages, as we have noted

in the research results cited above.

By repeating the following sentence like some sort of gym mantra, " The

triceps are the most important muscle in the bench press " , you are

proving

nothing and showing that you consider your biased opinions to be more

correct

than genuine research based upon studies of top class lifters.

Someone else

could quote the following opinion with equal validity and conviction:

" The

flexors of the wrist are the most important muscles in the bench press

because stability and control of the bar across the palm depends on

these

muscles throughout the lift " . In fact, such a proposal might be even

more

convincing than what you offered, because you simply made an

opinionated

statement without offering any supporting evidence whatsoever.

In future letters, it would be far more constructive and useful if you

could

kindly quote any relevant references to substantiate your beliefs and

opinions, because this list really does prefer to focus far more on

proof

than oft-repeated opinion.

Dr Mel C Siff

[Guest guest]

No offense Dr Siff but I'm getting the same impression. While I agree

that I'm stubborn, what you wrote there doesn't make any sense in

relation to what I wrote. Your OWN scientific reference supports what I

wrote. Point 2 from Dr McLaughlin's findings:

2. Triceps involvement is so large near the top of the movement that it

is the limiting factor in this region.

[iN THIS REGION !!!! Mel Siff]

There, that's all the proof I need. With a competition grip, half of the

bench is the shirt and the other half tricep. ERGO, the triceps are the

most important muscles. WHAT here doesn't make perfect sense???? You

keep asking me to provide proof, well, so far you haven't provided any

proof that I'm wrong.

[Didn't you read that summary of scientific findings in my last post? Mel Siff]

The one scientific reference you did provide

supports what I wrote. You wrote that you have close ties with Louie

. This is his information. Did you also approach him with the

same " put up or shut up " attitude? I don't know of any EMGs that he ever

did to prove himself. When questioned, I hear he usually points to his

wall of fame (in this case, namely Halbert with a 728@220 bench).

[if Louie and I lived much closer, we would most certainly have many discussions

about what he believes to be appropriate mechanics. Once again, I have to

iterate

that the size of one's muscles or the load that you lift neither proves nor

disproves

any hypothesis. THAT is the issue, not what one lifts or the training cues or

methods that may be used. Anyway, you may be interested to know that next year

Westside and I will be offering at least one joint workshop, so that anyone is

welcome to see what happens there! Mel Siff]

So now, how about you produce YOUR evidence that the triceps aren't the

most important. " Until then, hold thy peace " .

[Read what you quoted below slowly and carefully. ALL muscles are important

to different degrees at different stages of every movement -that is basic

functional

anatomy 101 - what is so difficult to accept about that FACT. Mel Siff]

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

-----------

[somehow I gather the impression that, even in the face of all the

scientific

and practical evidence in the world, unless it agrees with your

opinions, you

will refuse to accept that anyone else's views may ever be correct.

All that

remains now is for you to have EMGs taken while YOU and no other

weakling

like Kazmaier or Bridges is bench pressing and find out for yourself -

that is

your homework for now. Until then, hold thy peace or produce YOUR

evidence. Mel Siff]

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

--------------------

Mel Siff:

<<...read the research by Dr McLaughlin in his book, " Bench Press

More Now "

or read through other articles in several journals of EMGs taken of

the arm

and chest muscles during the bench press. Your anecdotal comments,

feelings

and advice from others do not offer any scientific validation of

your claims. >>

Dmitry Voronov wrote:

<The only things I want to say in response are: 1) How much do you

want to

bet that Dr McLaughlin didn't do any research with bench shirt

benchers 2)

The bench can be done 100 different ways. Each one changes the

muscle

stress.

I'm willing to bet that his studies were done with test subjects

bringing the

bar down to their chest and flaring out their elbows. Anecdotal or

not,

here's my scientific evidence: keeping my upper back tight, tucking

my

elbows, bringing the bar to my upper abs and concentrating my

training

on

triceps has increased my bench 30%. The triceps are the most

important

muscle

in the benchpress.>

*** We are all well aware that the bench press can be done in 103.76

different ways. Dr McL certainly did not analyse lifts with

bench-shirted

lifters because at that time such shirts were illegal, but all

subjects were

tested under exactly the same shirtless conditions. Anyway, when I

have

visited Westside I did not see Louie and company training with bench

shirts

all the time, so the results from unshirted research should still be

of some

relevance.

Ah well, I suppose that we really should discard all that useless

research by

Dr Tom McLaughlin because he analysed only about 50 of the world's

best

powerlifters at that time, including Bill Kazmaier, Crain, Pacifico,

Mike

Bridges, Cole, , Kenady, Fred Hatfield, Woods, Anello,

Frantz,

, Iams, Young and many others. These were no mere " test

guinea

pigs " ,

but among the world's best at the time. Instead of rushing in where

angels

fear to tread, I would suggest that you check your facts first.

Scientist

that he is, Dr McL clearly acknowledged any limitations of his work

and

stated that he by no means has answered all of the questions

concerning all

methods of shirted and unshirted benching. However, what he did

served as a

pioneering and useful guide.

If the triceps are the " most important " muscles, how would you

suggest

that they act in the lowest position

of the bench press? This is at a position which requires strong

adduction of

the (upper) arms - note well that the triceps do not cross the

shoulder joint

and simply cannot produce this adduction. Incidentally I, and many

other

scientists, have carried out many EMGs of muscles involved in the

bench press

and have always been struck by the fact that the deltoids play a

huge

role

throughout the movement.

Let me quote the findings by Dr McL and other scientists in this

regard

(references cited in DrMcLaughin's book):

1. The anterior deltoid is near maximally involved during the

entire

lift,

using any style of bench pressing.

2. Triceps involvement is so large near the top of the movement

that

it is

the limiting factor in this region.

3. During the phase from just off the chest to about halfway to

two-thirds

of the way up, pectoralis major is the limiting factor and is the

most

involved muscle

4. The anterior deltoids using wide and narrow grips are near

maximally

involved during the entire lift, using any style.

5. A wide grip keeps pectoralis major at a greater length longer

during the

lift and permits the muscle to be of more help to successful

completion of

the lift.

6. A narrow grip involves the triceps more and pectoralis major

less.

Anyway, it is nonsense and spurious to talk about any " most

important "

muscle in any movement,

because all movement involves the synergistic action of many

stabilising and mobilising muscle

groups. If any one muscle is deficient or injured, your lift will

suffer seriously. Each muscle

changes its percentage contribution to a given movement as the joint

angles change, so that the triceps

may dominate during one stage, but other muscles will dominate at

other stages, as we have noted

in the research results cited above.

By repeating the following sentence like some sort of gym mantra,

" The

triceps are the most important muscle in the bench press " , you are

proving

nothing and showing that you consider your biased opinions to be

more

correct

than genuine research based upon studies of top class lifters.

Someone else

could quote the following opinion with equal validity and

conviction:

" The

flexors of the wrist are the most important muscles in the bench

press

because stability and control of the bar across the palm depends on

these

muscles throughout the lift " . In fact, such a proposal might be

even

more

convincing than what you offered, because you simply made an

opinionated

statement without offering any supporting evidence whatsoever.

In future letters, it would be far more constructive and useful if

you

could

kindly quote any relevant references to substantiate your beliefs

and

opinions, because this list really does prefer to focus far more on

proof

than oft-repeated opinion.

Dr Mel C Siff

[Guest guest]

[iN THIS REGION !!!! Mel Siff]

That's right, IN THIS REGION!!!! This region is the only place where

the shirt does no help. Off the bottom, the only muscles doing any

serious work is your back. The TOP REGION is triceps. The BOTTOM REGION

is the bench shirt. The TRICEPS are the most important muscles involved.

This isn't rocket science it really isn't.

[Didn't you read that summary of scientific findings in my last post?

Mel Siff]

Sure did. Some of it bares no relevance, the rest supports my point.

[if Louie and I lived much closer, we would most certainly have many

discussions

about what he believes to be appropriate mechanics. Once again, I

have to iterate

that the size of one's muscles or the load that you lift neither

proves nor disproves

any hypothesis. THAT is the issue, not what one lifts or the training

cues or

methods that may be used. Anyway, you may be interested to know that

next year

Westside and I will be offering at least one joint workshop, so that

anyone is

welcome to see what happens there! Mel Siff]

Well, see, the point is that while Louie hasn't proven himself with

hardcore, undeniable facts, you haven't proven him wrong with the same.

Until you or him go and get EMGs with top athletes wearing bench shirts

benching the way HE says they should, you equally have no right to knock

his information.

I will go there no matter how far it is if you promise you will argue

with them to a tee (I can bring a list of things in case you forget). I

respect both of your opinions to a great degree but the clinching factor

is the results he produces. You don't have any world champion bench

pressers do you? And you already stated how much you bench yourself (and

we know how much Louie did - at something like 55 years of age).

[Read what you quoted below slowly and carefully. ALL muscles are

important

to different degrees at different stages of every movement -that is

basic functional

anatomy 101 - what is so difficult to accept about that FACT. Mel

Siff]

It's not a fact and I've shown you why in the previous letter. I can

understand why you don't want to listen to me because this isn't my

information. And you're absolutely right! So why are you insisting on me

proving it? I'm getting tired of saying the same thing over and over and

you coming back and pretending I didn't say anything and putting words

in my mouth. Louie will probably never bother to get any scientific

proof for you because he doesn't care. People who want to be strong and

break records listen to him with no proof. I did and it was the best

thing I could have done in my lifting. However, as I said before, I'm

stubborn. Something has to make perfect sense to me before I embrace it.

Louie's methods were the first I have ever come across to do that. I

have laid out the reasons why I think it makes perfect sense. You

misread and ignore things, turn things around into something I didn't

even say and even resort to personal insults. You call that encouraging

debate and discussion??? Hmm, more like causing frustration.

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

[Guest guest]

Dmitry,

I could be wrong, but I believe you stated that the triceps were the most

important muscle in the bench press. You did not say in the bench press with

a shirt. If I misquoted you, I stand corrected, but if not, you are now

changing the argument.

[Even if some of us stated that the studies were done with lifters who used

shirts, then 'someone' would say, " but they weren't Inzer shirts " and so the

trail of red herrings would continue. If anyone persists in maintaining that

the triceps are the most important muscle during the bench press, let one

of our medical colleagues inject an analgesic into the anterior deltoids

to severely reduce the contribution of the deltoids and pec major, and let's see

if the lifter manages to even raise the bar off the chest. This will soon show

how

unimportant these muscles are compared with the triceps. If one successively

injects

analgesics into pecs, delts and triceps, one will soon see that impairment of

function

of ANY of these muscles will severely hinder bench pressing and that it is

impossible

to construct a simple universal hierarchy of importance of muscles involved

for the entire range of movement. I trust that Dmitry will be our first

subject

to prove that the standard anatomy texts are all wrong! Mel Siff]

Bob Forney

San Mateo, Ca

----------------

From: " Dmitry Voronov " <dvoronov@...>

>No offense Dr Siff but I'm getting the same impression. While I agree

>that I'm stubborn, what you wrote there doesn't make any sense in

>relation to what I wrote. Your OWN scientific reference supports what I

>wrote. Point 2 from Dr McLaughlin's findings:

>

>2. Triceps involvement is so large near the top of the movement that it

>is the limiting factor in this region.

>

>[iN THIS REGION !!!! Mel Siff]

>

>There, that's all the proof I need. With a competition grip, half of the

>bench is the shirt and the other half tricep. ERGO, the triceps are the

>most important muscles. WHAT here doesn't make perfect sense???? You

>keep asking me to provide proof, well, so far you haven't provided any

>proof that I'm wrong.

>

>[Didn't you read that summary of scientific findings in my last post? Mel

>Siff]

>

>The one scientific reference you did provide

>supports what I wrote. You wrote that you have close ties with Louie

>. This is his information. Did you also approach him with the

>same " put up or shut up " attitude? I don't know of any EMGs that he ever

>did to prove himself. When questioned, I hear he usually points to his

>wall of fame (in this case, namely Halbert with a 728@220 bench).

>

>[if Louie and I lived much closer, we would most certainly have many

>discussions

>about what he believes to be appropriate mechanics. Once again, I have to

>iterate

>that the size of one's muscles or the load that you lift neither proves nor

>disproves

>any hypothesis. THAT is the issue, not what one lifts or the training cues

>or

>methods that may be used. Anyway, you may be interested to know that next

>year

>Westside and I will be offering at least one joint workshop, so that anyone

>is

>welcome to see what happens there! Mel Siff]

>

>So now, how about you produce YOUR evidence that the triceps aren't the

>most important. " Until then, hold thy peace " .

>

>[Read what you quoted below slowly and carefully. ALL muscles are

>important

>to different degrees at different stages of every movement -that is basic

>functional

>anatomy 101 - what is so difficult to accept about that FACT. Mel Siff]

>

>Dmitry Voronov

>Ontario, Canada

>

>-----------

>

> [somehow I gather the impression that, even in the face of all the

>scientific

> and practical evidence in the world, unless it agrees with your

>opinions, you

> will refuse to accept that anyone else's views may ever be correct.

>All that

> remains now is for you to have EMGs taken while YOU and no other

>weakling

> like Kazmaier or Bridges is bench pressing and find out for yourself -

>that is

> your homework for now. Until then, hold thy peace or produce YOUR

> evidence. Mel Siff]

>

> Dmitry Voronov

> Ontario, Canada

>

> --------------------

>

> Mel Siff:

>

> <<...read the research by Dr McLaughlin in his book, " Bench Press

>More Now "

> or read through other articles in several journals of EMGs taken of

>the arm

> and chest muscles during the bench press. Your anecdotal comments,

>feelings

> and advice from others do not offer any scientific validation of

>your claims. >>

>

> Dmitry Voronov wrote:

>

> <The only things I want to say in response are: 1) How much do you

> want to

> bet that Dr McLaughlin didn't do any research with bench shirt

> benchers 2)

> The bench can be done 100 different ways. Each one changes the

>muscle

> stress.

> I'm willing to bet that his studies were done with test subjects

> bringing the

> bar down to their chest and flaring out their elbows. Anecdotal or

> not,

> here's my scientific evidence: keeping my upper back tight, tucking

>my

> elbows, bringing the bar to my upper abs and concentrating my

>training

> on

> triceps has increased my bench 30%. The triceps are the most

>important

> muscle

> in the benchpress.>

>

> *** We are all well aware that the bench press can be done in 103.76

> different ways. Dr McL certainly did not analyse lifts with

> bench-shirted

> lifters because at that time such shirts were illegal, but all

> subjects were

> tested under exactly the same shirtless conditions. Anyway, when I

> have

> visited Westside I did not see Louie and company training with bench

> shirts

> all the time, so the results from unshirted research should still be

> of some

> relevance.

>

> Ah well, I suppose that we really should discard all that useless

> research by

> Dr Tom McLaughlin because he analysed only about 50 of the world's

> best

> powerlifters at that time, including Bill Kazmaier, Crain, Pacifico,

> Mike

> Bridges, Cole, , Kenady, Fred Hatfield, Woods, Anello,

> Frantz,

> , Iams, Young and many others. These were no mere " test

>guinea

> pigs " ,

> but among the world's best at the time. Instead of rushing in where

> angels

> fear to tread, I would suggest that you check your facts first.

> Scientist

> that he is, Dr McL clearly acknowledged any limitations of his work

> and

> stated that he by no means has answered all of the questions

> concerning all

> methods of shirted and unshirted benching. However, what he did

> served as a

> pioneering and useful guide.

>

> If the triceps are the " most important " muscles, how would you

>suggest

> that they act in the lowest position

> of the bench press? This is at a position which requires strong

> adduction of

> the (upper) arms - note well that the triceps do not cross the

> shoulder joint

> and simply cannot produce this adduction. Incidentally I, and many

> other

> scientists, have carried out many EMGs of muscles involved in the

> bench press

> and have always been struck by the fact that the deltoids play a

>huge

> role

> throughout the movement.

>

> Let me quote the findings by Dr McL and other scientists in this

> regard

> (references cited in DrMcLaughin's book):

>

> 1. The anterior deltoid is near maximally involved during the

>entire

> lift,

> using any style of bench pressing.

>

> 2. Triceps involvement is so large near the top of the movement

>that

> it is

> the limiting factor in this region.

>

> 3. During the phase from just off the chest to about halfway to

> two-thirds

> of the way up, pectoralis major is the limiting factor and is the

>most

> involved muscle

>

> 4. The anterior deltoids using wide and narrow grips are near

> maximally

> involved during the entire lift, using any style.

>

> 5. A wide grip keeps pectoralis major at a greater length longer

> during the

> lift and permits the muscle to be of more help to successful

> completion of

> the lift.

>

> 6. A narrow grip involves the triceps more and pectoralis major

>less.

>

> Anyway, it is nonsense and spurious to talk about any " most

>important "

> muscle in any movement,

> because all movement involves the synergistic action of many

> stabilising and mobilising muscle

> groups. If any one muscle is deficient or injured, your lift will

> suffer seriously. Each muscle

> changes its percentage contribution to a given movement as the joint

> angles change, so that the triceps

> may dominate during one stage, but other muscles will dominate at

> other stages, as we have noted

> in the research results cited above.

>

> By repeating the following sentence like some sort of gym mantra,

> " The

> triceps are the most important muscle in the bench press " , you are

> proving

> nothing and showing that you consider your biased opinions to be

>more

> correct

> than genuine research based upon studies of top class lifters.

> Someone else

> could quote the following opinion with equal validity and

>conviction:

> " The

> flexors of the wrist are the most important muscles in the bench

>press

> because stability and control of the bar across the palm depends on

> these

> muscles throughout the lift " . In fact, such a proposal might be

>even

> more

> convincing than what you offered, because you simply made an

> opinionated

> statement without offering any supporting evidence whatsoever.

>

> In future letters, it would be far more constructive and useful if

>you

> could

> kindly quote any relevant references to substantiate your beliefs

>and

> opinions, because this list really does prefer to focus far more on

> proof

> than oft-repeated opinion.

>

> Dr Mel C Siff

[Guest guest]

Does anyone know where Louie learned the conjugate method? I may be

wrong, but I swore read somewhere that he learned about it in " Supertraining "

and " Science and Practice of Strength Training " (Zatsiorsky) books. If that is

true, then

you could say that Dr. Siff does have some top powerlifters using his

methods. I know for a fact that he highly recommends both " Supertraining " and

" Science and Practice of Strength Training. "

Bob Forney

San Mateo, Ca

-----------

From: " Dmitry Voronov " <dvoronov@...>

> [iN THIS REGION !!!! Mel Siff]

>

> That's right, IN THIS REGION!!!! This region is the only place where

>the shirt does no help. Off the bottom, the only muscles doing any

>serious work is your back. The TOP REGION is triceps. The BOTTOM REGION

>is the bench shirt. The TRICEPS are the most important muscles involved.

>This isn't rocket science it really isn't.

>

> [Didn't you read that summary of scientific findings in my last post?

>Mel Siff]

>

> Sure did. Some of it bares no relevance, the rest supports my point.

>

> [if Louie and I lived much closer, we would most certainly have many

>discussions

> about what he believes to be appropriate mechanics. Once again, I

>have to iterate

> that the size of one's muscles or the load that you lift neither

>proves nor disproves

> any hypothesis. THAT is the issue, not what one lifts or the training

>cues or

> methods that may be used. Anyway, you may be interested to know that

>next year

> Westside and I will be offering at least one joint workshop, so that

>anyone is

> welcome to see what happens there! Mel Siff]

>

> Well, see, the point is that while Louie hasn't proven himself with

>hardcore, undeniable facts, you haven't proven him wrong with the same.

>Until you or him go and get EMGs with top athletes wearing bench shirts

>benching the way HE says they should, you equally have no right to knock

>You don't have any world champion bench

>pressers do you? And you already stated how much you bench yourself (and

>we know how much Louie did - at something like 55 years of age).

>his information.

>

> I will go there no matter how far it is if you promise you will argue

>with them to a tee (I can bring a list of things in case you forget). I

>respect both of your opinions to a great degree but the clinching factor

>is the results he produces.

>

> [Read what you quoted below slowly and carefully. ALL muscles are

>important

> to different degrees at different stages of every movement -that is

>basic functional

> anatomy 101 - what is so difficult to accept about that FACT. Mel

>Siff]

>

> It's not a fact and I've shown you why in the previous letter. I can

>understand why you don't want to listen to me because this isn't my

>information. And you're absolutely right! So why are you insisting on me

>proving it? I'm getting tired of saying the same thing over and over and

>you coming back and pretending I didn't say anything and putting words

>in my mouth. Louie will probably never bother to get any scientific

>proof for you because he doesn't care. People who want to be strong and

>break records listen to him with no proof. I did and it was the best

>thing I could have done in my lifting. However, as I said before, I'm

>stubborn. Something has to make perfect sense to me before I embrace it.

>Louie's methods were the first I have ever come across to do that. I

>have laid out the reasons why I think it makes perfect sense. You

>misread and ignore things, turn things around into something I didn't

>even say and even resort to personal insults. You call that encouraging

>debate and discussion??? Hmm, more like causing frustration.

>

> Dmitry Voronov

[Guest guest]

Happy New Year, Everyone!

I'd just like to make a couple of comment here. (Although I know there are

other members of this list who are closer to Westside than I, I have met

Louie on a couple of occasions, spoken with him on the phone, and have

visited Westside.)

1) I don't know if Louie actually believes the triceps are " the most

important muscle " in the bench press. What he told me was that, for his

lifters (and indeed most people), the triceps was the weakest link, and

therefore received the most attention for supplemental exercises. It may be

semantics, but saying a muscle is the weakest link in a multi-joint system

is not the same as saying that it is the most important muscle in performing

a movement. So Dmitry and Mel could be saying the same thing, only

differently.

2) Second, and I believe that this point is the most important one to make,

is that Louie DOES care about the scientific validity of his methods. He

directly told me so. While I agree that the " proof may be in the pudding, "

the truly great not only know what works, but also why it works.

Flanagan

San Diego / Los Angeles, CA

[Guest guest]

Dmitry wrote:

That's right, IN THIS REGION!!!! This region is the only place where

the shirt does no help. Off the bottom, the only muscles doing any

serious work is your back. The TOP REGION is triceps. The BOTTOM REGION

is the bench shirt. The TRICEPS are the most important muscles involved.

This isn't rocket science it really isn't.

writes:

I don't want to drag this topic on any further, but I had to ask about this.

I'm not a PLer and am not too familiar with these bench shirts, but I'm

having trouble believing that " the BOTTOM REGION is the bench shirt " . This

implies that pec major is hardly doing anything at all. If the shirts are

this effective, then surely no lifter ever fails in the first half of the

bench in competition. Is this correct? It sounds like cheating to me!

" off the bottom, the only muscles doing any serious work is your back " I

can't see how any of the muscles of the back can perform work on the

barbell. How does this work?

(BTW, I only bench a paltry 200 lbs - this seems to be an important aspect

of the discussion!)

Pacey

Vancouver, Canada

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

[Guest guest]

That's about right, . With low level, loose fitting, single ply

polyester bench shirts, the pecs and shoulders will still be doing some

work off the bottom. I wear the most shirt allowed by the IPF which is a

single ply polyester. Anything lighter than 365 lbs I have to pull down

to my chest. Obviously, you can see why the chest or anterior delt would

NOT be doing ANY work here, other than maybe as a stabilizing antagonist.

After the pause, you of course need these muscles but they are helped a

lot by the shirt. If one were to do close grip bench in the shirt, then

I would no longer say that it's half shirt and half tricep because of

the stroke. But the maximal width grip in powerlifting is with your

index fingers on the rings 81 cm apart (almost all bars I've ever seen

have these, it's the deepest cut ring). With a grip this wide, my 6'

height, thick chest and an arch, the stroke is so short that the bench

is half shirt, half tricep. With some US federations, this is taken to

the extreme. They wear shirts made out of denim. That's right, the stuff

your jeans are made of. The top guys wear 2 layers and some, 3 layers

(two outside denim and poly middle). These people spend a lot of time in

the gym learning to pull the bar down.

Like I said, some guys miss 700+benches because they can't get it to touch. This

is part of the reason

why back muscles are so critical in powerlifting bench. The other part

is to keep the bar in the proper groove (keeping your elbows tucked and

the bar moving up and not towards the eyes).

Even though Dr Siff made it seem as if I said triceps are all that

matters, triceps ARE the most important muscle but shoulders and chest

are still important. You need to be very fast off the bottom. You have

to learn to use the shirt and train your chest to have great reversing

strength so that you can build up as much velocity as possible while the

shirt is helping. Then the triceps take over and this is where you hope

that all those hours you spent doing extentions and JM presses paid off.

And as you guessed, except for the guys just starting off and wearing

very loose shirts, no one ever fails on the bottom.

Bench shirts are the most controversial topic in powerlifting but as

long as they're legal, we will continue to wear them. Some people say

that it is cheating. I, like most others, say that it just changes the

bench press.

Like I said, Kaz was a magnificent bencher but if you put a

double denim on him, I don't think he can beat 's 800 lb bench. Not

right away anyway. It's not cheating, it's just different. I don't see

it in the way that they modified the bench but that it's now a totally

different lift.

By the way, bench shirts and such were never illegal

before. The technology didn't exist. It started with guys from Kaz's era

wearing tight shirts and jeans. Then people caught on that they could

make specialized outfits. Some federations decided to limit how tight

these could be, some didn't. The only reason I mentioned how much Dr

Siff could bench is because you have to experience it. Most people that

put on a level 4 shirt can't bench nearly as much as they can without it

because it hurts like hell and if you don't use it properly, you'll just

get stuck half way when it stops helping.

A guy on my powerlifting team benches 500@220 raw in the gym. His shirt contest

max is 440. He gets

totally knocked out of his groove by the shirt but he wears it anyway

because he finds it makes the bench safer (for the shoulders) and it

helps a bit with the pause.

I just want to once again reiterate here that this isn't my brainchild.

I don't want to be wrongfully credited for it. If you want to know a lot

more about this system and a lot more about the above in detail, visit

www.elitefts.com and read some of the articles by Louie and Dave Tate.

Dmitry Voronov

Ontario, Canada

-------------

Dmitry wrote:

<<That's right, IN THIS REGION!!!! This region is the only place where

the shirt does no help. Off the bottom, the only muscles doing any

serious work is your back. The TOP REGION is triceps. The BOTTOM

REGION is the bench shirt. The TRICEPS are the most important muscles

involved. This isn't rocket science it really isn't.>>

Pacey writes:

<I don't want to drag this topic on any further, but I had to ask about

this. I'm not a PLer and am not too familiar with these bench shirts, but

I'm having trouble believing that " the BOTTOM REGION is the bench shirt " .

This implies that pec major is hardly doing anything at all. If the shirts

are this effective, then surely no lifter ever fails in the first half of

the bench in competition. Is this correct? It sounds like cheating to me!

" off the bottom, the only muscles doing any serious work is your back "

I can't see how any of the muscles of the back can perform work on the

barbell. How does this work?

(BTW, I only bench a paltry 200 lbs - this seems to be an important

aspect of the discussion!)>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Tomorrow I'm going to try to bench press 100 pounds. At my assessment 2 weeks ago I did 85 so I think I'm ready for 100. Just sounds like a nice challenge. If I can't do it I'll keep trying every week until I can. Just a one time maximum weight. I certainly won't be doing multiple lifts at 100.

Today I went out to lunch with my group so I'll hit the gym the rest of the week. My eating has settled down since I had those few days with extra hunger and calories. I had half my leftover Tex Mex for dinner. I'll have the rest for dinner tomorrow. 3 meals when it would have been 1 before.

Bonnie, you asked about lunges. How are your knees? Don't do forward lunges. Your knee goes too far forward over your foot. The trainer at the gym at work suggested backwards lunges. It's getting late but I will tell you what she said later. She also recommended water ski squats.

Ann

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: ABrite@...

> OOooh I can't wait to hear how it goes. I don't know how much I could

> bench - I haven't tried LOL... good for you!

Thanks for the support. I did 100 and that was not bad so I tried 110.

That was very hard but I did it. Every couple of weeks I'm going to try to

up my maximum. I can feel that my biceps are bigger but they are still

hidden under lots of flab and will be for a long time.

Ann