Re: feedback regarding the Hitler issue

[Guest guest]

>What the pro lifers are missing is that if you take away the right for a

woman to choose an abortion, you are giving the >government more power over

our bodies. They are going to have more of a say in what we do and it could

give them more >power over other areas of our lives. Abortion is a moral,

ethical and family decision and should be left that way, it >shouldn't be up

to the government.

Sara, can you immagine your great great great great grandparents making that

above statement --- back at the beginnings of this country? I can't. They

knew that the one thing the Federal government was supposed to be about was

protecting and defending.....

What you say about abortion today will pale in comparison to what your

decendents maybe not too many years from now will say in regard to what

they will label " mercy killing " -- you and their children when they become

an inconvenience to them. Something similar to what you said (who will have

paved the way in their reasoning process):

" Killing the elderly and mentally/ physically infirm (autistic, brain

damaged, quadrapalegic, etc.) --it is all done very humanely, now-- is a

moral, ethical and family decision and should be left that way, it shouldn't

be up to the government... "

Please think about it. What one generation allows will be taken to the

next extreme level in future generations...

Carolyn

(who only continues this discussion because it is being prompted and/or

allowed by Sheri. I feel just as passionate as she but from a different

perspective ---which I believe ties into the destruction she is warning us

of).

Re: feedback regarding the Hitler issue

>

>

>

> What is being reported is that morals and values is what won Bush the

> election. I really think this is a religious/political subject, and

> I'm afraid it could turn really ugly, or push some of the new members

> on this list away. When they start reading this stuff, they will say

> maybe these people are really lunatics on the fringe!

>

> The way I see it is, we had two crappy choices!!!! One that supported

> the killing of innocent fetuses and one that didn't. Sorry, but when

> you are talking Christians you have to take this issue first. Now,

> I'm sure no one wants to get into a pro-life, pro-choice religious

> debate on a vaccination list.

>

> Only my .02!

>

>

>

>

> > > <<<That is not at all what I am doing. I am

> > > showing you that the same words

> > > that come out of Bush's mouth are the ones

> > > that' came out of

> > > Hitler's mouth and Goebels mouth. You make of it

> > > what you wish. Everyone

> > > at the time who was a Christian believed in

> > > Goebels and Hitler. I

> > > encourage you to look at this issue deeply. The

> > > powers that be can fool

> > > all of us.>>>>

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I am a Christian, and you know Sheri, as you've

> > > probably already concluded, you can't tell the

> > > christians that believe Bush anything different.

> > > I've tried and they just don't hear it. They are

> > > totally propagandized on this issue. People think

> > > Satan is out fishing or golfing on Sunday

> > > mornings; nope he's sittin' in churches all over

> > > the world leading the christians to hell.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I am a christian too, I can not figure out why some are

> so " blinded "

> > when it comes to Bush, Its very scarry.

> >

> > Donna

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>Name some of these people.

>Yeah, right

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - Gunmen killed a deputy foreign minister as he went to

work yesterday, the latest attack on Iraqi leaders in recent weeks. A

radical cleric whose uprising killed hundreds pledged to support the new

government if it works to end the U.S. military presence.

Bassam Salih Kubba, Iraq's most senior career diplomat, was mortally wounded

in Baghdad's Azimiyah district, Foreign Ministry spokesman Thamir al-Adhami

said. The attack took place in a Sunni Muslim neighborhood where support for

Saddam Hussein was strong.

The attack " bears all the hallmarks of leftover supporters of Saddam Hussein

's evil regime, " the ministry said in a statement.

The attack on Kubba, a Sunni, was the second assassination of a senior Iraqi

figure in the past month. The head of the now-disbanded Iraqi Governing

Council, Izzadine Saleem, was killed May 17 in a suicide car-bombing at an

entrance to the heavily guarded Green Zone headquarters of the U.S.-run

occupation authority.

Another Governing Council member, Salama al-Khafaji, escaped injury in a May

27 ambush south of Baghdad, but her son and chief bodyguard were killed.

Council member Aquila al-Hashemi, also a career diplomat, was assassinated

last September.

In May, the head of the former US-appointed Iraqi Governing Council,

Izzedin Salim, was killed in a suicide bombing.

More recent:

Top Baghdad Official Shot Dead

BBC

Monday 01 November 2004

Gunmen have assassinated the deputy governor of Baghdad and wounded two

of his bodyguards, Iraqi officials say.

Hatem Kamil Abdul Fatah was killed in a drive-by shooting in the

southern Dora district of the capital, an interior ministry spokesman said.

The attack came as efforts began to register voters for January's polls.

***********************************************************************

Hope that helps,

Carolyn

Re: Re: feedback regarding the Hitler issue

>

> PS

>

> >

> >Did this not resonate with you????????????

> >> Imagine, that someone decides that Bush is a threat to the world (now

> >> there's a concept!) and that he should be gotten rid of.

> >

> >My goodness, everything is so amazingly backwards!!! What do you think

the

> >planes into the World Trade Center were all about? (It didn't really

> >happen. The pro Bush media made it up?) Someone not only doesn't like

> >Bush, but they hate all Americans as well and would like to see our whole

> >country destroyed!!!

>

>

> Who is 'they'???

>

> The freedom fighters of America, our troops, are

> >defending us, Sheri.

>

> How are they defending us in Iraq that had nothing to do with 9/11? Iraq

> never invaded us? Iraq never could invade us?

>

> They are trying, like any noble men, to keep the

> >battle front away from American soil to protect their innocent women,

> >children, and the elderly, unlike the terrorists whose sole purpose is to

> >specifically target those groups!!

>

> Better to kill Arab & Aryan women, children, elderly as they are not

innocent.

>

> >

> >I am. Tell me, why are Iraqi men stepping up to leadership positions in

a

> >new government that they do not believe in or want (according to you) --

> >especially knowing they will be mercilessly slaughtered by their own

people?

> >Numerous assassinations have occurred, yet new men, new Iraqi men,

continue

> >to boldly and courageously step up to the plate to help restore order and

> >bring leadership to their people.

>

> Name these people and tell me their background and relationship with the

US

> Tell me their history of living in Iraq.

>

> Real courage like this would not be demonstrated

> >if there were not enough Iraqi people desirous of freedom from the former

> >Hussein oppression.

>

> Name some of these people.

>

> >The freedom fighters you keep referring to are not FREEDOM FIGHTERS at

all

> >they OPPRESSION FIGHTERS -- they are the ones AGAINST freedom. The TRUE

> >freedom fighters are those Iraqi men who have bravely joined forces with

our

> >men, resisting the insurgents, because they know their cause is right and

> >good and best for Iraq. They are being trained right now so that they

can

> >eventually take over and allow our men to return home.....

>

> Yeah, right

>

> Again, I haven't had you put yourself in their place..........

> Imagine, that someone decides that Bush is a threat to the world (now

> there's a concept!) and that he should be gotten rid of. Let's say it is

> Spain who decides this. So the Spanish invade the US and they come to

your

> town - Anytown USA - and you have freedom fighters there. Everyone who

can

> is trying to defend their town. They didn't vote for Bush, they are from

a

> Blue County ;-)

> They had no control, more than the rest of us, as to Bush and his neocons

> and all the dems and everyone. Your in your little town. You are

fighting

> for your life - all of you. You are fighting for your family, your

> neighborhood, your town, your county, your state and your country. You

are

> doing all you can as you are fighting for your freedom from an invader and

> an agressor. And in Spain they are labeling you all insurgents, fighting

> to maintain the regime. Just think about it.

> --------------------------------------------------------

> Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Classical Homeopath

> Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

> $$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

> vaccineinfo@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

> (go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

> Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

> Vaccine Dangers On-Line course -

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

> Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

> ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL

> OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

>

> ******

> " Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down.

> Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy

> knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy

information

> and religions destroy spirituality " .... Ellner

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't have too much time to respond, I have a test to study for and two active

little boys to take care of.

I am the fourth generation of radical, feminist, pro choicers!

My great grandmother was a nurse and was pro choice, she saw what happened when

women weren't given a choice. She thought that surgical abortion was much

better than trying to poison yourself, use a knitting needle, crochet hook, coat

hanger, or going down a flight of stairs. Some women even starved themselves in

hopes of bringing on an abortion, it has been going on since the beginning of

time, now it is just safer and more effective.

I spoke with my grandmother yesterday, she is a firm believer in the idea that

it is a moral decision and not a legal one. She isn't too hip to the idea of

the government telling her what she can and can't do with her body.

My lesbian (oh no, not a lesbian) aunt used to escort women through the

protesters to get inside abortion clinics.

So, I really don't think that my great great great great grandparents would be

shocked or apalled. Seriously, they saw women employing all sorts methods to

end pregnancies, they just didn't talk about it much.

Abortion whether illegal or legal has been around for a long time, and it will

continue to be. If you don't like it, then don't have one, but don't try and

push your beliefs onto other women who don't share them and want to have the

choice to do with THEIR bodies what they will.

Sara

" They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country or our people.

And neither do we. "

W. Bush

Re: feedback regarding the Hitler issue

>

>

>

> What is being reported is that morals and values is what won Bush the

> election. I really think this is a religious/political subject, and

> I'm afraid it could turn really ugly, or push some of the new members

> on this list away. When they start reading this stuff, they will say

> maybe these people are really lunatics on the fringe!

>

> The way I see it is, we had two crappy choices!!!! One that supported

> the killing of innocent fetuses and one that didn't. Sorry, but when

> you are talking Christians you have to take this issue first. Now,

> I'm sure no one wants to get into a pro-life, pro-choice religious

> debate on a vaccination list.

>

> Only my .02!

>

>

>

>

> > > <<<That is not at all what I am doing. I am

> > > showing you that the same words

> > > that come out of Bush's mouth are the ones

> > > that' came out of

> > > Hitler's mouth and Goebels mouth. You make of it

> > > what you wish. Everyone

> > > at the time who was a Christian believed in

> > > Goebels and Hitler. I

> > > encourage you to look at this issue deeply. The

> > > powers that be can fool

> > > all of us.>>>>

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I am a Christian, and you know Sheri, as you've

> > > probably already concluded, you can't tell the

> > > christians that believe Bush anything different.

> > > I've tried and they just don't hear it. They are

> > > totally propagandized on this issue. People think

> > > Satan is out fishing or golfing on Sunday

> > > mornings; nope he's sittin' in churches all over

> > > the world leading the christians to hell.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I am a christian too, I can not figure out why some are

> so " blinded "

> > when it comes to Bush, Its very scarry.

> >

> > Donna

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

BUT, that is YOUR OPINION, it is not the opinion of everyone else. There

are many people who do not believe that it is a person yet, even the

" experts " are torn as to when life does start. There are many who believe

that it isn't until after birth when they are breathing on their own, others

say when the heart start beating, still there are some who say right at

conception, and I even know some who say that it starts as soon as the woman

takes it into her heart.

Sara

" They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country or our people.

And neither do we. "

W. Bush

Re: Re: feedback regarding the Hitler issue

>

> >

> >

> >but don't try and push your beliefs onto other women who don't share them

and want to have the choice to do with THEIR bodies what they will

> >

> That's just the problem- that person inside you is NOT your body! And

> I'm a big opinionated jerk, I know it, but if you want to kill your

> kids, well...you deserve what happens to you as a result! Making it safe

> and legal is sickening to an unthinkable degree. Either it's ok to kill

> people or it isn't. Just because that person is physically dependent for

> its survival on its mother (as are all children, born or unborn),

> doesn't mean that it should have any less of a right to live than its mom.

>

> --

> Reverend Breezy s - Facilitator, Blissful Hearth School

> Lady Lasairíona of Creavanore - Seneschal, Shire of Hrafnsfjordr, Oertha,

West

>

> {{Whats right is not always popular;

> Whats popular is not always right.}}

>

> ~None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are

free.~

> -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

>

> " To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we

are to stand by our President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and

servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. "

> -Theodore Roosevelt

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

AGAIN - who is 'they'

How are they defending us in Iraq that had nothing to do with 9/11? Iraq

never invaded us? Iraq never could invade us?

Better to kill Arab & Aryan women, children, elderly as they are not innocent.

>

>Did this not resonate with you????????????

>> Imagine, that someone decides that Bush is a threat to the world (now

>> there's a concept!) and that he should be gotten rid of.

>

>My goodness, everything is so amazingly backwards!!! What do you think the

>planes into the World Trade Center were all about? (It didn't really

>happen. The pro Bush media made it up?) Someone not only doesn't like

>Bush, but they hate all Americans as well and would like to see our whole

>country destroyed!!!

Who is 'they'???

The freedom fighters of America, our troops, are

>defending us, Sheri.

How are they defending us in Iraq that had nothing to do with 9/11? Iraq

never invaded us? Iraq never could invade us?

They are trying, like any noble men, to keep the

>battle front away from American soil to protect their innocent women,

>children, and the elderly, unlike the terrorists whose sole purpose is to

>specifically target those groups!!

Better to kill Arab & Aryan women, children, elderly as they are not innocent.

>

>I am. Tell me, why are Iraqi men stepping up to leadership positions in a

>new government that they do not believe in or want (according to you) --

>especially knowing they will be mercilessly slaughtered by their own people?

>Numerous assassinations have occurred, yet new men, new Iraqi men, continue

>to boldly and courageously step up to the plate to help restore order and

>bring leadership to their people.

Name these people and tell me their background and relationship with the US

Tell me their history of living in Iraq.

Real courage like this would not be demonstrated

>if there were not enough Iraqi people desirous of freedom from the former

>Hussein oppression.

Name some of these people.

>The freedom fighters you keep referring to are not FREEDOM FIGHTERS at all

>they OPPRESSION FIGHTERS -- they are the ones AGAINST freedom. The TRUE

>freedom fighters are those Iraqi men who have bravely joined forces with our

>men, resisting the insurgents, because they know their cause is right and

>good and best for Iraq. They are being trained right now so that they can

>eventually take over and allow our men to return home.....

Yeah, right

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Classical Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

vaccineinfo@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL

OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

******

" Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down.

Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy

knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information

and religions destroy spirituality " .... Ellner

[Guest guest]

>>

>> Go and look up the facts. Close to 2 MILLION!! abortions occur

>> >every year here. When you add that up from when it was legalized back

>in

>> >the early 70s you get a total of over 50 million deaths -- that is around

>> >20% of our total population!

>> >

>> > What if within that group of children was one who would have been born

>to

>> >rise up and lead an articulate crusade against forced vaccinations?

And somehow it always ends up here for radical fundamentalists who say they

are christians.

ALWAYS> Can't debate intelligently and think for themselves about the

issue being discussed, so we go here.

Abortion

It used to be arguing about how many angels on the head of a pin.

Now its this.

You know..............it has been MAGNIFICENTLY wonderful to live in the UK

where we don't have these arguments.

We don't have religious fundamentalism of the muslim, christian or jewish

sort.

We don't have people moralizing and preaching at us.

People have health care for ALL that includes alternative practices

We don't have poverty unless it is chosen (druggies on the street, etc)

The elderly are provided for - housing, health care, food.

We don't have vaccine mandates and vaccine mafia.

And its the same in Europe.

IT IS SUCH a relief and a breath of fresh air. So you all stay there and

argue about this.

Don't do anytihng about the people and babies that are already here and in

poverty. Don't do anything about murder that goes on CAUSED by the US

around the globe of people that are already here. Continue to focus on

this issue.......................angels on the head of a pin.

And much of the planet does not believe as you do......in fact most of the

planet.

1. Life is not linear - it doesn't begin at conception and end at death

resulting in eternal life in heave or heall

Many/most throughout time have viewed life as cyclical, with many

lifetimes. I don't remember where I was before I came here, therefore I

don't have worries about where I will be when I leave this plane.

2. Many think we choose to come into specific families & specific lives.

Therefore, if the embryo is going to be aborted then the soul just won't go

there, no will it.

3. No one knows when 'life' starts. I have seen babies that are born that

DON'T have the soul or spirit in them for a few weeks - yes it is strange.

Some say it comes in right before. Some children and adults remember past

lives, some remember time in the womb

THE POINT IS NONE of us know, do we.

4. And yes, I too believe, for myself it is up to myself to decide these

issues no matter what the above is. And it is not up to you to tell me

what to do. If you don't want an abortion, fine, no one is forcing you.

It is not up to the government, the courts or any of you. Women have been

taking charge of their lives (or trying to) since time began.

5. I have NEVER heard a fundamentalist expounding about the children that

are already here that can't get adopted.

6. And why aren't you in Sudan rescuing all those starving children that

are already BORN. So once you have taken care of them, you come back and

talk to us.

So there will be no resolution as you 'know' the truth. The rest of us are

living our lives as we see fit for ourselves and don't begin to know the

whole truth about the conception/embryo/fetus/abortion issue and we will

never know.

You have made your bed...............

Sheri

(And I will continue to teach about the dangers of vaccines and the

connections with fascism and corporatism and the government in the US - and

by the way I have had dozens and dozens and dozens - maybe 50 or so emails

with people thanking me for this conversation and encouraging them to look

up these issues and become more aware.)

THE ISSUE WAS about the US become fascist and showing comparisons with

Hitler's Germany; who the neocons are; who Leo Strauss was and who his

students are and where they are now; who is PNAC...........because all is

connected with vaccines.

BUT THAT IS TOO hard to research. You have to put some effort into that.

You can't just spout off easy stuff programmed in at a 12 yo level.

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Classical Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

vaccineinfo@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL

OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

******

" Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down.

Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy

knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information

and religions destroy spirituality " .... Ellner

[Guest guest]

>>

>> Go and look up the facts. Close to 2 MILLION!! abortions occur

>> >every year here. When you add that up from when it was legalized back

>in

>> >the early 70s you get a total of over 50 million deaths -- that is around

>> >20% of our total population!

>> >

>> > What if within that group of children was one who would have been born

>to

>> >rise up and lead an articulate crusade against forced vaccinations?

And somehow it always ends up here for radical fundamentalists who say they

are christians.

ALWAYS> Can't debate intelligently and think for themselves about the

issue being discussed, so we go here.

Abortion

It used to be arguing about how many angels on the head of a pin.

Now its this.

You know..............it has been MAGNIFICENTLY wonderful to live in the UK

where we don't have these arguments.

We don't have religious fundamentalism of the muslim, christian or jewish

sort.

We don't have people moralizing and preaching at us.

People have health care for ALL that includes alternative practices

We don't have poverty unless it is chosen (druggies on the street, etc)

The elderly are provided for - housing, health care, food.

We don't have vaccine mandates and vaccine mafia.

And its the same in Europe.

IT IS SUCH a relief and a breath of fresh air. So you all stay there and

argue about this.

Don't do anytihng about the people and babies that are already here and in

poverty. Don't do anything about murder that goes on CAUSED by the US

around the globe of people that are already here. Continue to focus on

this issue.......................angels on the head of a pin.

And much of the planet does not believe as you do......in fact most of the

planet.

1. Life is not linear - it doesn't begin at conception and end at death

resulting in eternal life in heave or heall

Many/most throughout time have viewed life as cyclical, with many

lifetimes. I don't remember where I was before I came here, therefore I

don't have worries about where I will be when I leave this plane.

2. Many think we choose to come into specific families & specific lives.

Therefore, if the embryo is going to be aborted then the soul just won't go

there, no will it.

3. No one knows when 'life' starts. I have seen babies that are born that

DON'T have the soul or spirit in them for a few weeks - yes it is strange.

Some say it comes in right before. Some children and adults remember past

lives, some remember time in the womb

THE POINT IS NONE of us know, do we.

4. And yes, I too believe, for myself it is up to myself to decide these

issues no matter what the above is. And it is not up to you to tell me

what to do. If you don't want an abortion, fine, no one is forcing you.

It is not up to the government, the courts or any of you. Women have been

taking charge of their lives (or trying to) since time began.

5. I have NEVER heard a fundamentalist expounding about the children that

are already here that can't get adopted.

6. And why aren't you in Sudan rescuing all those starving children that

are already BORN. So once you have taken care of them, you come back and

talk to us.

So there will be no resolution as you 'know' the truth. The rest of us are

living our lives as we see fit for ourselves and don't begin to know the

whole truth about the conception/embryo/fetus/abortion issue and we will

never know.

You have made your bed...............

Sheri

(And I will continue to teach about the dangers of vaccines and the

connections with fascism and corporatism and the government in the US - and

by the way I have had dozens and dozens and dozens - maybe 50 or so emails

with people thanking me for this conversation and encouraging them to look

up these issues and become more aware.)

THE ISSUE WAS about the US become fascist and showing comparisons with

Hitler's Germany; who the neocons are; who Leo Strauss was and who his

students are and where they are now; who is PNAC...........because all is

connected with vaccines.

BUT THAT IS TOO hard to research. You have to put some effort into that.

You can't just spout off easy stuff programmed in at a 12 yo level.

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Classical Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

vaccineinfo@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL

OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

******

" Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down.

Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy

knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information

and religions destroy spirituality " .... Ellner

[Guest guest]

I'm sure it will come to much relief to you, Sheri(as well as many others),

for me to make this request:

Please remove my name from this board.

I appreciate all the work you have done in the past providing info in regard

to the vaccine issue. It has been very helpful to me and my family and I

am sure countless others. 'Hope your work in this regard will continue

with great passion. My prayers will be with you.

Carolyn

Re: Re: feedback regarding the Hitler issue

>

>

> >>

> >> Go and look up the facts. Close to 2 MILLION!! abortions occur

> >> >every year here. When you add that up from when it was legalized

back

> >in

> >> >the early 70s you get a total of over 50 million deaths -- that is

around

> >> >20% of our total population!

> >> >

> >> > What if within that group of children was one who would have been

born

> >to

> >> >rise up and lead an articulate crusade against forced vaccinations?

>

>

> And somehow it always ends up here for radical fundamentalists who say

they

> are christians.

> ALWAYS> Can't debate intelligently and think for themselves about the

> issue being discussed, so we go here.

> Abortion

>

> It used to be arguing about how many angels on the head of a pin.

> Now its this.

>

> You know..............it has been MAGNIFICENTLY wonderful to live in the

UK

> where we don't have these arguments.

> We don't have religious fundamentalism of the muslim, christian or jewish

> sort.

> We don't have people moralizing and preaching at us.

> People have health care for ALL that includes alternative practices

> We don't have poverty unless it is chosen (druggies on the street, etc)

> The elderly are provided for - housing, health care, food.

> We don't have vaccine mandates and vaccine mafia.

>

> And its the same in Europe.

>

> IT IS SUCH a relief and a breath of fresh air. So you all stay there and

> argue about this.

> Don't do anytihng about the people and babies that are already here and in

> poverty. Don't do anything about murder that goes on CAUSED by the US

> around the globe of people that are already here. Continue to focus on

> this issue.......................angels on the head of a pin.

>

>

>

> And much of the planet does not believe as you do......in fact most of the

> planet.

> 1. Life is not linear - it doesn't begin at conception and end at death

> resulting in eternal life in heave or heall

> Many/most throughout time have viewed life as cyclical, with many

> lifetimes. I don't remember where I was before I came here, therefore I

> don't have worries about where I will be when I leave this plane.

> 2. Many think we choose to come into specific families & specific lives.

> Therefore, if the embryo is going to be aborted then the soul just won't

go

> there, no will it.

> 3. No one knows when 'life' starts. I have seen babies that are born

that

> DON'T have the soul or spirit in them for a few weeks - yes it is strange.

> Some say it comes in right before. Some children and adults remember past

> lives, some remember time in the womb

> THE POINT IS NONE of us know, do we.

> 4. And yes, I too believe, for myself it is up to myself to decide these

> issues no matter what the above is. And it is not up to you to tell me

> what to do. If you don't want an abortion, fine, no one is forcing you.

> It is not up to the government, the courts or any of you. Women have been

> taking charge of their lives (or trying to) since time began.

> 5. I have NEVER heard a fundamentalist expounding about the children that

> are already here that can't get adopted.

> 6. And why aren't you in Sudan rescuing all those starving children that

> are already BORN. So once you have taken care of them, you come back and

> talk to us.

>

> So there will be no resolution as you 'know' the truth. The rest of us

are

> living our lives as we see fit for ourselves and don't begin to know the

> whole truth about the conception/embryo/fetus/abortion issue and we will

> never know.

>

>

> You have made your bed...............

> Sheri

> (And I will continue to teach about the dangers of vaccines and the

> connections with fascism and corporatism and the government in the US -

and

> by the way I have had dozens and dozens and dozens - maybe 50 or so emails

> with people thanking me for this conversation and encouraging them to look

> up these issues and become more aware.)

>

>

> THE ISSUE WAS about the US become fascist and showing comparisons with

> Hitler's Germany; who the neocons are; who Leo Strauss was and who his

> students are and where they are now; who is PNAC...........because all is

> connected with vaccines.

>

> BUT THAT IS TOO hard to research. You have to put some effort into that.

> You can't just spout off easy stuff programmed in at a 12 yo level.

> --------------------------------------------------------

> Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Classical Homeopath

> Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

> $$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

> vaccineinfo@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

> (go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

> Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

> Vaccine Dangers On-Line course -

http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

> Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

> ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL

> OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

>

> ******

> " Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down.

> Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy

> knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy

information

> and religions destroy spirituality " .... Ellner

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:32:00 -0000, Donna <donna.arnold@...> wrote:

>

>

> The figure of 100,000 – estimated by extrapolating the surveyed

> households' death toll to the whole population - is based

> on " conservative assumptions " , notes Les at s Hopkins

> Bloomberg School of Public Health, Baltimore, US, who led the study.

>

> That estimate excludes Falluja, a hotspot for violence. If the data

> from this town is included, the study points to about 200,000 excess

> deaths since the outbreak of war.

>

> http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996596

>

> People who voted for Bush based on abortions, Need to do thier home

> work, Abortions have been on the decline for years, Now that Bush is

> in office...National data on abortions is not being kept??? But some

> states have kept dadta and have shown an increase in abortions since

> Bush took office.

>

> Abortion was decreasing. When President Bush took office, the

> nation's abortion rates were at a 24-year low, after a 17.4% decline

> during the 1990s. This was an average decrease of 1.7% per year,

> mostly during the latter part of the decade. (This data comes from

> Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life using the Guttmacher

> Institute's studies).

>

> Enter W. Bush in 2001. One would expect the abortion rate to

> continue its consistent course downward, if not plunge. Instead, the

> opposite happened.

>

> I found three states that have posted multi-year statistics through

> 2003, and abortion rates have risen in all three: Kentucky's

> increased by 3.2% from 2000 to 2003. Michigan's increased by 11.3%

> from 2000 to 2003. Pennsylvania's increased by 1.9% from 1999 to

> 2002. I found 13 additional states that reported statistics for 2001

> and 2002. Eight states saw an increase in abortion rates (14.6%

> average increase), and five saw a decrease (4.3% average decrease).

>

> Under President Bush, the decade-long trend of declining abortion

> rates appears to have reversed. Given the trends of the 1990s,

> 52,000 more abortions occurred in the United States in 2002 than

> would have been expected before this change of direction.

>

> http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=sojomail.display & issue=041013

>

> Donna

>

>

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I'm wondering where they got those statistics, who

did those studies, and why there would be an increase in abortions

under Bush. Could it simply be because the " baby boomers " now have

children who are child bearing age? Could it simply be because of

that increase in population?

I have no idea. Just thinking aloud.

~~ Jacqui

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > The figure of 100,000 †" estimated by extrapolating the surveyed

> > households' death toll to the whole population - is based

> > on " conservative assumptions " , notes Les at s Hopkins

> > Bloomberg School of Public Health, Baltimore, US, who led the

study.

> >

> > That estimate excludes Falluja, a hotspot for violence. If the

data

> > from this town is included, the study points to about 200,000

excess

> > deaths since the outbreak of war.

> >

> > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996596

> >

> > People who voted for Bush based on abortions, Need to do thier

home

> > work, Abortions have been on the decline for years, Now that

Bush is

> > in office...National data on abortions is not being kept??? But

some

> > states have kept dadta and have shown an increase in abortions

since

> > Bush took office.

> >

> > Abortion was decreasing. When President Bush took office, the

> > nation's abortion rates were at a 24-year low, after a 17.4%

decline

> > during the 1990s. This was an average decrease of 1.7% per year,

> > mostly during the latter part of the decade. (This data comes

from

> > Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life using the Guttmacher

> > Institute's studies).

> >

> > Enter W. Bush in 2001. One would expect the abortion rate

to

> > continue its consistent course downward, if not plunge. Instead,

the

> > opposite happened.

> >

> > I found three states that have posted multi-year statistics

through

> > 2003, and abortion rates have risen in all three: Kentucky's

> > increased by 3.2% from 2000 to 2003. Michigan's increased by

11.3%

> > from 2000 to 2003. Pennsylvania's increased by 1.9% from 1999 to

> > 2002. I found 13 additional states that reported statistics for

2001

> > and 2002. Eight states saw an increase in abortion rates (14.6%

> > average increase), and five saw a decrease (4.3% average

decrease).

> >

> > Under President Bush, the decade-long trend of declining abortion

> > rates appears to have reversed. Given the trends of the 1990s,

> > 52,000 more abortions occurred in the United States in 2002 than

> > would have been expected before this change of direction.

> >

> > http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?

action=sojomail.display & issue=041013

> >

> > Donna

> >

> >

>

> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I'm wondering where they got those statistics, who

> did those studies, and why there would be an increase in abortions

> under Bush. Could it simply be because the " baby boomers " now have

> children who are child bearing age? Could it simply be because of

> that increase in population?

>

> I have no idea. Just thinking aloud.

>

> ~~ Jacqui

First, two thirds of women who abort say they cannot afford a child

(Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life Web site). In the past three

years, unemployment rates increased half again. Not since Hoover had

there been a net loss of jobs during a presidency until the current

administration. Average real incomes decreased, and for seven years

the minimum wage has not been raised to match inflation. With less

income, many prospective mothers fear another mouth to feed.

Second, half of all women who abort say they do not have a reliable

mate (Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life). Men who are jobless

usually do not marry. Only three of the 16 states had more marriages

in 2002 than in 2001, and in those states abortion rates decreased.

In the 16 states overall, there were 16,392 fewer marriages than the

year before, and 7,869 more abortions. As male unemployment

increases, marriages fall and abortion rises.

Third, women worry about health care for themselves and their

children. Since 5.2 million more people have no health insurance now

than before this presidency - with women of childbearing age

overrepresented in those 5.2 million - abortion increases.

[Guest guest]

> > >

> > >

> > > The figure of 100,000 †" estimated by extrapolating the

surveyed

> > > households' death toll to the whole population - is based

> > > on " conservative assumptions " , notes Les at s

Hopkins

> > > Bloomberg School of Public Health, Baltimore, US, who led the

> study.

> > >

> > > That estimate excludes Falluja, a hotspot for violence. If the

> data

> > > from this town is included, the study points to about 200,000

> excess

> > > deaths since the outbreak of war.

> > >

> > > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996596

> > >

> > > People who voted for Bush based on abortions, Need to do thier

> home

> > > work, Abortions have been on the decline for years, Now that

> Bush is

> > > in office...National data on abortions is not being kept???

But

> some

> > > states have kept dadta and have shown an increase in abortions

> since

> > > Bush took office.

> > >

> > > Abortion was decreasing. When President Bush took office, the

> > > nation's abortion rates were at a 24-year low, after a 17.4%

> decline

> > > during the 1990s. This was an average decrease of 1.7% per

year,

> > > mostly during the latter part of the decade. (This data comes

> from

> > > Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life using the Guttmacher

> > > Institute's studies).

> > >

> > > Enter W. Bush in 2001. One would expect the abortion

rate

> to

> > > continue its consistent course downward, if not plunge.

Instead,

> the

> > > opposite happened.

> > >

> > > I found three states that have posted multi-year statistics

> through

> > > 2003, and abortion rates have risen in all three: Kentucky's

> > > increased by 3.2% from 2000 to 2003. Michigan's increased by

> 11.3%

> > > from 2000 to 2003. Pennsylvania's increased by 1.9% from 1999

to

> > > 2002. I found 13 additional states that reported statistics

for

> 2001

> > > and 2002. Eight states saw an increase in abortion rates (14.6%

> > > average increase), and five saw a decrease (4.3% average

> decrease).

> > >

> > > Under President Bush, the decade-long trend of declining

abortion

> > > rates appears to have reversed. Given the trends of the 1990s,

> > > 52,000 more abortions occurred in the United States in 2002

than

> > > would have been expected before this change of direction.

> > >

> > > http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?

> action=sojomail.display & issue=041013

> > >

> > > Donna

> > >

> > >

> >

> > hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I'm wondering where they got those statistics,

who

> > did those studies, and why there would be an increase in

abortions

> > under Bush. Could it simply be because the " baby boomers " now

have

> > children who are child bearing age? Could it simply be because

of

> > that increase in population?

> >

> > I have no idea. Just thinking aloud.

> >

> > ~~ Jacqui

>

>

>

>

> First, two thirds of women who abort say they cannot afford a

child

> (Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life Web site). In the past

three

> years, unemployment rates increased half again. Not since Hoover

had

> there been a net loss of jobs during a presidency until the

current

> administration. Average real incomes decreased, and for seven

years

> the minimum wage has not been raised to match inflation. With less

> income, many prospective mothers fear another mouth to feed.

>

> Second, half of all women who abort say they do not have a

reliable

> mate (Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life). Men who are jobless

> usually do not marry. Only three of the 16 states had more

marriages

> in 2002 than in 2001, and in those states abortion rates

decreased.

> In the 16 states overall, there were 16,392 fewer marriages than

the

> year before, and 7,869 more abortions. As male unemployment

> increases, marriages fall and abortion rises.

>

> Third, women worry about health care for themselves and their

> children. Since 5.2 million more people have no health insurance

now

> than before this presidency - with women of childbearing age

> overrepresented in those 5.2 million - abortion increases.

Thank you for the clarification.

~~ Jacqui

[Guest guest]

Sheri,

Dont you think what you wrote was a bit cruel? I dont see why someone

cant have their own opinion about what is going on. If you can have

your own opinion why cant she?

I see it doesn't take much for you to blow up at people if they dont

agree with you. This list was great for valuable information on

VACCINES but now its just turning in to a big mess. Im sure you will

come back with something not nice, but I cant read what you wrote to

someone that is tearing them up one side and down the other and then

not say something. You have your beliefs and she has hers. If you

cant handle that then dont bring up this issue anymore and stick with

the VACCINE issue.

==================

>

> >>

> >> Go and look up the facts. Close to 2 MILLION!! abortions occur

> >> >every year here. When you add that up from when it was

legalized back

> >in

> >> >the early 70s you get a total of over 50 million deaths -- that

is around

> >> >20% of our total population!

> >> >

> >> > What if within that group of children was one who would have

been born

> >to

> >> >rise up and lead an articulate crusade against forced

vaccinations?

>

>

> And somehow it always ends up here for radical fundamentalists who

say they

> are christians.

> ALWAYS> Can't debate intelligently and think for themselves about

the

> issue being discussed, so we go here.

> Abortion

>

> It used to be arguing about how many angels on the head of a pin.

> Now its this.

>

> You know..............it has been MAGNIFICENTLY wonderful to live

in the UK

> where we don't have these arguments.

> We don't have religious fundamentalism of the muslim, christian or

jewish

> sort.

> We don't have people moralizing and preaching at us.

> People have health care for ALL that includes alternative practices

> We don't have poverty unless it is chosen (druggies on the street,

etc)

> The elderly are provided for - housing, health care, food.

> We don't have vaccine mandates and vaccine mafia.

>

> And its the same in Europe.

>

> IT IS SUCH a relief and a breath of fresh air. So you all stay

there and

> argue about this.

> Don't do anytihng about the people and babies that are already here

and in

> poverty. Don't do anything about murder that goes on CAUSED by the

US

> around the globe of people that are already here. Continue to

focus on

> this issue.......................angels on the head of a pin.

>

>

>

> And much of the planet does not believe as you do......in fact most

of the

> planet.

> 1. Life is not linear - it doesn't begin at conception and end at

death

> resulting in eternal life in heave or heall

> Many/most throughout time have viewed life as cyclical, with many

> lifetimes. I don't remember where I was before I came here,

therefore I

> don't have worries about where I will be when I leave this plane.

> 2. Many think we choose to come into specific families & specific

lives.

> Therefore, if the embryo is going to be aborted then the soul just

won't go

> there, no will it.

> 3. No one knows when 'life' starts. I have seen babies that are

born that

> DON'T have the soul or spirit in them for a few weeks - yes it is

strange.

> Some say it comes in right before. Some children and adults

remember past

> lives, some remember time in the womb

> THE POINT IS NONE of us know, do we.

> 4. And yes, I too believe, for myself it is up to myself to decide

these

> issues no matter what the above is. And it is not up to you to

tell me

> what to do. If you don't want an abortion, fine, no one is forcing

you.

> It is not up to the government, the courts or any of you. Women

have been

> taking charge of their lives (or trying to) since time began.

> 5. I have NEVER heard a fundamentalist expounding about the

children that

> are already here that can't get adopted.

> 6. And why aren't you in Sudan rescuing all those starving

children that

> are already BORN. So once you have taken care of them, you come

back and

> talk to us.

>

> So there will be no resolution as you 'know' the truth. The rest

of us are

> living our lives as we see fit for ourselves and don't begin to

know the

> whole truth about the conception/embryo/fetus/abortion issue and we

will

> never know.

>

>

> You have made your bed...............

> Sheri

> (And I will continue to teach about the dangers of vaccines and the

> connections with fascism and corporatism and the government in the

US - and

> by the way I have had dozens and dozens and dozens - maybe 50 or so

emails

> with people thanking me for this conversation and encouraging them

to look

> up these issues and become more aware.)

>

>

> THE ISSUE WAS about the US become fascist and showing comparisons

with

> Hitler's Germany; who the neocons are; who Leo Strauss was and who

his

> students are and where they are now; who is PNAC...........because

all is

> connected with vaccines.

>

> BUT THAT IS TOO hard to research. You have to put some effort into

that.

> You can't just spout off easy stuff programmed in at a 12 yo level.

[Guest guest]

At 04:30 PM 11/13/2004 -0000, you wrote:

>

>

>Sheri,

>

>Dont you think what you wrote was a bit cruel? I dont see why someone

>cant have their own opinion about what is going on. If you can have

>your own opinion why cant she?

>I see it doesn't take much for you to blow up at people if they dont

>agree with you. This list was great for valuable information on

>VACCINES but now its just turning in to a big mess. Im sure you will

>come back with something not nice, but I cant read what you wrote to

>someone that is tearing them up one side and down the other and then

>not say something. You have your beliefs and she has hers. If you

>cant handle that then dont bring up this issue anymore and stick with

>the VACCINE issue.

I'm sorry, and yes, I shouldn't have reacted the way I did.

It is just all getting to me. It is all so connected and until people see

that being on this list and finding out about the dangers of vaccines will

only get you so far, we haven't won anything. If you know they are

dangerous and aren't allowed a choice because the government has taken away

your rights and is now fascist and is murdering willy-nilly around the

world, it doesn't help much.

I am passionate about many issues and you can always count on me to tell

you the truth. And yes, truth sometimes is in the eye of the beholder.

But to hear such things that are told to people in the US and to see people

actually believe them and affect ALL of our lives - in the US and outside,

is just sometimes more than I can bear.

It has been 4 years of trying to be nice and not offend anyone........and

where has it gotten us

DEEPER into a hole I fear we will never get out of. All our work will be

for nothing. You and your children will be vaccinated for the good of all

and all of your rights will be gone.

This is what I see. And it is all connected. But not all see it yet, but

you will

Sheri

--------------------------------------------------------

Sheri Nakken, R.N., MA, Classical Homeopath

Vaccination Information & Choice Network, Nevada City CA & Wales UK

$$ Donations to help in the work - accepted by Paypal account

vaccineinfo@... voicemail US 530-740-0561

(go to http://www.paypal.com) or by mail

Vaccines - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccine.htm

Vaccine Dangers On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/vaccineclass.htm

Homeopathy On-Line course - http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/homeo.htm

ANY INFO OBTAINED HERE NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS MEDICAL

OR LEGAL ADVICE. THE DECISION TO VACCINATE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE.

******

" Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down.

Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy

knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information

and religions destroy spirituality " .... Ellner

[Guest guest]

>

> >The freedom fighters you keep referring to are not FREEDOM

FIGHTERS at all

> >they OPPRESSION FIGHTERS -- they are the ones AGAINST freedom.

The TRUE

> >freedom fighters are those Iraqi men who have bravely joined

forces with our

> >men, resisting the insurgents, because they know their cause is

right and

> >good and best for Iraq. They are being trained right now so that

they can

> >eventually take over and allow our men to return home.....

>

I can't help it. I have to comment on all the weapons that we have

been finding that are U.S. ISSUED in the hands of those fighting

against us. Where do you think those weapons came from? I think

there is no question they came from those who were training

them " right now so they can eventually take over and allow our men to

return home "

If someone with a larger and stronger army than what we have decided

to invade and " protect " us against the Bush regime, would we not do

the same?