Re: On A Glutathione Bender

[Guest guest]

Hi, Sara.

Perhaps your cysteine level went too high. Be careful, cysteine is

a neurotoxin at high levels. That may explain why your nervous

system seems to have been affected, while your other organs seem to

be O.K. I would suggest cutting back on these things. If you can

get your cysteine level measured, that would be a good idea. Note

that I'm talking about cysteine, not cystine. Cysteine tends to

oxidize in stored and shipped blood serum to form cystine, unless a

preservative is added when the sample is drawn. So not all labs do

this.

Rich

>

> How much glutathione is too much?

>

> I've been ramping up the glutathione the past couple weeks.

Beyond

> the usual routing of injecting 2800 mg every other day, I'm now

on

> one scoop of RenewPro and a tablespoon of Essential GSH (thanks,

CJ!)

> every day as well.

>

> And I think I've hit my limit. I've been sort of low-energy the

past

> week, but after taking yesterday's GSH dose, I got walloped.

> Headache, right behind the eyes. Dizzy, like bedspins -- I'm not

> walking today if I can avoid it. Sore ALL over, joints and

muscles

> just miserable. Yet, weirdly, my vital organs feel really, really

> good -- heart and lungs clear and happy, digestive tract humming.

>

> I know some folks here have had bad reactions to glutathione, and

am

> wondering if my symptoms sound familiar. Is this my body saying,

> " enough " ? (And, if so, any ideas about what might be going on to

> cause these symptoms?) Or am I coming down with a summer flu?

>

> (Either way, I NEED to get better. I'm leaving for Greece a week

from

> tomorrow, which is why I was building up GSH in the first place.)

>

> Sara

>

[Guest guest]

Bernie

I've had no problem taking B-100 plus b6-100 three times a day for extended

periods of time..

mjh

" The Basil Book "

_http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/_ (http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/)

_Re: On A Glutathione Bender _

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Posted by: " bernieanneca " _BernieAnne@... _

(mailto:BernieAnne@...?Subject= Re: On A Glutathione Bender)

_bernieanneca _

(bernieanneca)

Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:38 pm (PST)

>

>

plus about 450 mg of B6 every morning. Great stuff. Makes

> me happy all over.

>

***Hi Sara - Isn't taking 450 mg of B6 every day dangerous? My

understanding is that 200 mg per day is the absolute top limit a person

should take and even that shouldn't be taken long term. I was told many

years ago that high doses of B6 can cause permanent nerve damage.

Take care.

Bernie

[Guest guest]

Do the more " direct " forms of glutathione (injections and liposomal) raise

cysteine levels or does only whey raise it? Do they have cysteine in them like

whey does or just raise it in your body as part of raising glutathione?

Thanks!

Trina

rvankonynen <richvank@...> wrote:

Hi, Sara.

Perhaps your cysteine level went too high. Be careful, cysteine is

a neurotoxin at high levels. That may explain why your nervous

system seems to have been affected, while your other organs seem to

be O.K. I would suggest cutting back on these things. If you can

get your cysteine level measured, that would be a good idea. Note

that I'm talking about cysteine, not cystine. Cysteine tends to

oxidize in stored and shipped blood serum to form cystine, unless a

preservative is added when the sample is drawn. So not all labs do

this.

Rich

.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Sara,

Is it possible that your sulfur status needs help? Are you taking Epsom

Salt baths, for example? Sounds like you are getting toxin

re-distribution, and no doubt the organ systems are happy to be rid of

the toxins, but the secondary systems/tissues are not happy to be

temporary holding tanks. Maybe supporting the liver's phase II more

would help.

Another idea is that you need intestinal detox support, I am also

following a very powerful herbal intestinal detox program right now

designed to speed-up transit time and pull out toxins, and it seems to

be also helping (Nature's Secret - Ultimate Cleanse). Since the liver

toxins must exit in the bile through the intestines, I assume that if

you have sluggish intestines you may become somewhat toxic if you speed

detox with glutathione boosting.

Incidentally, I am also increasing my glutathione, and have noticed some

weird tenderness, aches and pains like what you describe. But because

of my experience with the redistribution of toxins on Salt/C, this does

not alarm me much, as it seems the same phenomenon and I know it will

eventually pass. I am taking a lot of glutathione precursor supplements

including Vit C, RenewPro, and also a natural Mercury detox (brown

seaweed - Modifilan) that theoretically lowers circulating metals (thus

freeing up liver enzymes). And it seems to be working. I was able to

steam-clean a bathroom today (going after that other nemesis - mold),

and had only a small post-exertion hit, only lasted an hour. That is

very unusual for me.

And regarding your prior post about my discussion with Rich, thanks for

the note - I did not know glutathione affected so many systems that way.

But note that the DAN folks are doing a lot more than just boosting

glutathione to get their children well. I think chelation is still

important for them and probably for us. Another point that occurs to

me, if all of those issues I mentioned can be improved by restoring

glutathione, is the converse also true? That the depletion of

glutathione can cause those issues to emerge? If so, that is

interesting evidence supporting Rich's hypothesis about the vicious

circle as the primary cause of CFS.

--Kurt

On A Glutathione Bender

How much glutathione is too much?

I've been ramping up the glutathione the past couple weeks. Beyond

the usual routing of injecting 2800 mg every other day, I'm now on

one scoop of RenewPro and a tablespoon of Essential GSH (thanks, CJ!)

every day as well.

And I think I've hit my limit. I've been sort of low-energy the past

week, but after taking yesterday's GSH dose, I got walloped.

Headache, right behind the eyes. Dizzy, like bedspins -- I'm not

walking today if I can avoid it. Sore ALL over, joints and muscles

just miserable. Yet, weirdly, my vital organs feel really, really

good -- heart and lungs clear and happy, digestive tract humming.

I know some folks here have had bad reactions to glutathione, and am

wondering if my symptoms sound familiar. Is this my body saying,

" enough " ? (And, if so, any ideas about what might be going on to

cause these symptoms?) Or am I coming down with a summer flu?

(Either way, I NEED to get better. I'm leaving for Greece a week from

tomorrow, which is why I was building up GSH in the first place.)

Sara

[Guest guest]

On Jun 13, 2006, at 3:30 PM, rvankonynen wrote:

> Hi, Sara.

>

> Perhaps your cysteine level went too high. Be careful, cysteine is

> a neurotoxin at high levels. That may explain why your nervous

> system seems to have been affected, while your other organs seem to

> be O.K. I would suggest cutting back on these things. If you can

> get your cysteine level measured, that would be a good idea. Note

> that I'm talking about cysteine, not cystine. Cysteine tends to

> oxidize in stored and shipped blood serum to form cystine, unless a

> preservative is added when the sample is drawn. So not all labs do

> this.

Thanks, Rich. The symptoms are indeed all neurological. (I'm a little

better, but my eyes are still weird and the room still spins.)

If I lay off the stuff for a while, will the levels come back down?

Or is this a place where one can get stuck?

The current plan is to lay off entirely for a few days and see if it

subsides. If it does, I'll come back at a much lower dose. Is this

reasonable?

Also, should I be laying back on the NAC, too?

Sara

[Guest guest]

Hi, Sara.

That sounds reasonable to me. If cysteine is elevated, the excess

should be metabolized if you cut back on substances that contain

cysteine. Yes, I would suggest cutting back on NAC, also.

Rich

>

> > Hi, Sara.

> >

> > Perhaps your cysteine level went too high. Be careful, cysteine

is

> > a neurotoxin at high levels. That may explain why your nervous

> > system seems to have been affected, while your other organs seem

to

> > be O.K. I would suggest cutting back on these things. If you can

> > get your cysteine level measured, that would be a good idea.

Note

> > that I'm talking about cysteine, not cystine. Cysteine tends to

> > oxidize in stored and shipped blood serum to form cystine,

unless a

> > preservative is added when the sample is drawn. So not all labs

do

> > this.

>

> Thanks, Rich. The symptoms are indeed all neurological. (I'm a

little

> better, but my eyes are still weird and the room still spins.)

>

> If I lay off the stuff for a while, will the levels come back

down?

> Or is this a place where one can get stuck?

>

> The current plan is to lay off entirely for a few days and see if

it

> subsides. If it does, I'll come back at a much lower dose. Is

this

> reasonable?

>

> Also, should I be laying back on the NAC, too?

>

> Sara

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Trina.

The direct forms of glutathione contain cysteine as part of the

glutathione molecule. There is a cycle operated by many cells called

the gammaglutamyl cycle, and this cycle breaks down glutathione on the

external surface of the cells into its constituent amino acids, one of

which is cysteine. The constituents are then imported individually,

and glutathione is re-synthesized inside the cells. The kidney cells

in particular operate this cycle at high rates. When glutathione per

se is put into the blood, as in I.V. glutathione injections, about 80%

of it is extracted from the blood by the kidneys, and the kidneys put

some cysteine back into the blood. I don't know whether they will put

excessive amounts of cysteine back into the blood if excessive amounts

of glutathione are injected, but it seems like a possibility.

Ultimately, it seems to me that the desirable goal is to get the

sulfur metabolism working properly again, and then the levels of

cysteine, glutathione and the other sulfur metabolites will be

regulated at normal values. As I've discussed in earlier posts, this

will require removing any blocks in the methylation cycle and related

parts of the biochemistry, and in many PWCs, this may require taking

supplements that directly target whatever genetic variations are

present, and compensating for them. The " brute force " approach of

attempting to raise glutathione by direct means combined with whey

protein products without dealing with these blocks earlier in the

sulfur metabolism may not work for everyone.

Rich

>

> Do the more " direct " forms of glutathione (injections and liposomal)

raise cysteine levels or does only whey raise it? Do they have

cysteine in them like whey does or just raise it in your body as part

of raising glutathione?

>

> Thanks!

> Trina

[Guest guest]

On Jun 13, 2006, at 6:47 PM, rvankonynen wrote:

> Ultimately, it seems to me that the desirable goal is to get the

> sulfur metabolism working properly again, and then the levels of

> cysteine, glutathione and the other sulfur metabolites will be

> regulated at normal values. As I've discussed in earlier posts, this

> will require removing any blocks in the methylation cycle and related

> parts of the biochemistry, and in many PWCs, this may require taking

> supplements that directly target whatever genetic variations are

> present, and compensating for them. The " brute force " approach of

> attempting to raise glutathione by direct means combined with whey

> protein products without dealing with these blocks earlier in the

> sulfur metabolism may not work for everyone.

Aw, it wasn't that complicated. I was just trying to boost

glutathione levels in anticipation of a two-week trip during which I

1) will be under considerable stress and 2) won't be able to get

injections. I'm packing whey and liposomal GSH, and hoping they'll

keep me going. Based on this, it seems clear that they can contribute

quite a bit, and I probably won't have to worry. <g>.

As for the longer-term issue of correcting methylation, I'm not even

thinking about that until I can get around to doing the genetic

testing you recommended. The good news, though, is that I seem to

tolerate several of the early items in that sequence much more

readily when GSH levels are high. I've always done well with

magnesium, folate, and B6 -- no problems (and much benefit) on that

front. Now, I can also handle taurine and TMG better as well. I'm

going to sit with that for a while, and maybe try small doses of SAMe

and methionine some time in the far future if things continue to be

well. No hurry, though.

My first thought about my current symptoms was that I was releasing

heavy metals, and I appreciate the confirmation.

Sara

[Guest guest]

On Jun 13, 2006, at 4:48 PM, Kurt R. wrote:

> Hi Sara,

>

> Is it possible that your sulfur status needs help?

It's an absolute certainty that my sulfur status needs help. That's

why I'm low in glutathione -- one of the end products of the

methylation cycle -- in the first place. Based on previous experience

with Rich's attempts to correct methylation through supplements, it's

strongly suspected I've got a genetic SNP that's messing me up.

> Are you taking Epsom Salt baths, for example?

I'm a big magnesium hound -- salt baths 3-4x/week, plus 1000 mg of

magnesium plus about 450 mg of B6 every morning. Great stuff. Makes

me happy all over.

> Sounds like you are getting toxin re-distribution, and no doubt the

> organ systems are happy to be rid of the toxins, but the secondary

> systems/tissues are not happy to be temporary holding tanks.

That was my first thought, and biggest fear. See my response to Rich.

There is such a thing as chelating too quickly <g>.

> Maybe supporting the liver's phase II more would help.

Good suggestion. I've got some pretty good liver cleansers in the

cupboard, and will take some for the next several days until symptoms

subside.

> Another idea is that you need intestinal detox support, I am also

> following a very powerful herbal intestinal detox program right now

> designed to speed-up transit time and pull out toxins, and it seems to

> be also helping (Nature's Secret - Ultimate Cleanse). Since the liver

> toxins must exit in the bile through the intestines, I assume that if

> you have sluggish intestines you may become somewhat toxic if you

> speed

> detox with glutathione boosting.

I've also got some Ultimate Cleanse, but tend not to get into it

unless I'm planning to do it for a few months. Fortunately, one of

the benefits I'm getting from the high GSH is a very happy gut, and

sluggishness is not the problem.

> Incidentally, I am also increasing my glutathione, and have noticed

> some

> weird tenderness, aches and pains like what you describe. But because

> of my experience with the redistribution of toxins on Salt/C, this

> does

> not alarm me much, as it seems the same phenomenon and I know it will

> eventually pass.

I'm interested in knowing more about salt/C. I've heard a lot of

discussion of it here over the past 8 months, but don't know much

about what it is or what it's supposed to do. If anybody's got a

website or other resource, I'd like to know more.

Am now about a month into doing Recup. Not sure yet if it's doing

anything, but I know this one really takes time to work.

> I am taking a lot of glutathione precursor supplements

> including Vit C, RenewPro, and also a natural Mercury detox (brown

> seaweed - Modifilan) that theoretically lowers circulating metals

> (thus

> freeing up liver enzymes). And it seems to be working. I was able to

> steam-clean a bathroom today (going after that other nemesis - mold),

> and had only a small post-exertion hit, only lasted an hour. That is

> very unusual for me.

I'm also jacked up on glutathione precursors, including RenewPro,

NAC, and a mess of other stuff.

>

> And regarding your prior post about my discussion with Rich, thanks

> for

> the note - I did not know glutathione affected so many systems that

> way.

> But note that the DAN folks are doing a lot more than just boosting

> glutathione to get their children well. I think chelation is still

> important for them and probably for us.

It is -- but glutathione is one way to do that. DMPS and DMSA are

about 85% effective chelators; glutathione is about 50% effective;

and everything else is down below 25% and on down. Given today's

experience, I'm not sure I'd want to detox any faster than I am right

now. <g>

And, even when the two high-powered chelators are used, my

understanding is that glutathione pre-loading is an important piece

of that process. The chelators get the metals loose from the tissue,

so they circulate in the blood. From there, you need lots of GSH on

board to make sure it gets eliminated, or else it may re-deposit

itself elsewhere in the body.

> Another point that occurs to me, if all of those issues I mentioned

> can be improved by restoring

> glutathione, is the converse also true? That the depletion of

> glutathione can cause those issues to emerge? If so, that is

> interesting evidence supporting Rich's hypothesis about the vicious

> circle as the primary cause of CFS.

This seems to be the theory. Somewhere between the viral attack and

our own genetics, something happens that warps the methylation cycle

-- and, with it, our bodies' ability to make sufficient GSH. Without

enough GSH on board to handle the detox, chelation, free radical

scavening, and anti-inflammation work, it's natural that toxins and

metals build up, cell damage occurs, inflammation goes unchecked, and

our immune systems are thrown out of whack. That's why we, along with

autistics, accumulate heavy metals. It's not that we're being exposed

to any more mercury than anyone else; it's just that, unlike them,

our bodies don't have what it takes to clear it.

Put the glutathione back -- either by supplementing GSH directly, or

by fixing the methylation cycle so you can make your own again -- and

this process can begin to reverse. I started injecting in October,

and have made incredible progress since then. And now, I'm apparently

overreaching <g>. Nothing ventured....

Sara

[Guest guest]

>

>

plus about 450 mg of B6 every morning. Great stuff. Makes

> me happy all over.

>

***Hi Sara - Isn't taking 450 mg of B6 every day dangerous? My

understanding is that 200 mg per day is the absolute top limit a person

should take and even that shouldn't be taken long term. I was told many

years ago that high doses of B6 can cause permanent nerve damage.

Take care.

Bernie

[Guest guest]

On Jun 13, 2006, at 7:31 PM, bernieanneca wrote:

>

>>

>>

> plus about 450 mg of B6 every morning. Great stuff. Makes

>> me happy all over.

>>

>

>

> ***Hi Sara - Isn't taking 450 mg of B6 every day dangerous? My

> understanding is that 200 mg per day is the absolute top limit a

> person

> should take and even that shouldn't be taken long term. I was told

> many

> years ago that high doses of B6 can cause permanent nerve damage.

Interesting. I'll look into it. Thanks.

Sara

[Guest guest]

On Jun 13, 2006, at 7:31 PM, bernieanneca wrote:

>

> ***Hi Sara - Isn't taking 450 mg of B6 every day dangerous? My

> understanding is that 200 mg per day is the absolute top limit a

> person

> should take and even that shouldn't be taken long term. I was told

> many

> years ago that high doses of B6 can cause permanent nerve damage.

Went and looked. The bottle I'm taking it from now is a 275 mg

serving of p5p, and I'm taking one a day.

They actually do have a warning on the bottle not to take more than

300 mg -- p5p may be a safer form, I don't know.

Sara

[Guest guest]

Sara> I'm interested in knowing more about salt/C. I've heard a lot of

discussion of it here over the past 8 months, but don't know much

about what it is or what it's supposed to do. If anybody's got a

website or other resource, I'd like to know more.

Am now about a month into doing Recup. Not sure yet if it's doing

anything, but I know this one really takes time to work.

Well, I guess I am probably the salt/c person on the list. I documented

my first few months on salt/c about a year ago on my blog, and have also

made a few recent postings.

www.kurtsprotocol.blogspot.com <http://www.kurtsprotocol.blogspot.com/>

I also have a page on the blog that links to salt/c-related sites.

--Kurt

[Guest guest]

Thanks!

If the whey does help, does that mean I don't have methylation cycle blocks?

Trina

rvankonynen <richvank@...> wrote:

Hi, Trina.

The direct forms of glutathione contain cysteine as part of the

glutathione molecule. There is a cycle operated by many cells called

the gammaglutamyl cycle, and this cycle breaks down glutathione on the

external surface of the cells into its constituent amino acids, one of

which is cysteine. The constituents are then imported individually,

and glutathione is re-synthesized inside the cells. The kidney cells

in particular operate this cycle at high rates. When glutathione per

se is put into the blood, as in I.V. glutathione injections, about 80%

of it is extracted from the blood by the kidneys, and the kidneys put

some cysteine back into the blood. I don't know whether they will put

excessive amounts of cysteine back into the blood if excessive amounts

of glutathione are injected, but it seems like a possibility.

Ultimately, it seems to me that the desirable goal is to get the

sulfur metabolism working properly again, and then the levels of

cysteine, glutathione and the other sulfur metabolites will be

regulated at normal values. As I've discussed in earlier posts, this

will require removing any blocks in the methylation cycle and related

parts of the biochemistry, and in many PWCs, this may require taking

supplements that directly target whatever genetic variations are

present, and compensating for them. The " brute force " approach of

attempting to raise glutathione by direct means combined with whey

protein products without dealing with these blocks earlier in the

sulfur metabolism may not work for everyone.

Rich

>

> Do the more " direct " forms of glutathione (injections and liposomal)

raise cysteine levels or does only whey raise it? Do they have

cysteine in them like whey does or just raise it in your body as part

of raising glutathione?

>

> Thanks!

> Trina

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

This is a great salt/C site:

lymestrategies/

Ballady

>

> Sara> I'm interested in knowing more about salt/C. I've heard a lot of

> discussion of it here over the past 8 months, but don't know much

> about what it is or what it's supposed to do. If anybody's got a

> website or other resource, I'd like to know more.

>

> Am now about a month into doing Recup. Not sure yet if it's doing

> anything, but I know this one really takes time to work.

>

>

> Well, I guess I am probably the salt/c person on the list. I documented

> my first few months on salt/c about a year ago on my blog, and have also

> made a few recent postings.

> www.kurtsprotocol.blogspot.com <http://www.kurtsprotocol.blogspot.com/>

>

> I also have a page on the blog that links to salt/c-related sites.

> --Kurt

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Sara.

O.K., hopefully your excess cysteine (if that's what was going on)

will be metabolized to sulfate and excreted, and you will feel

better soon. Lots of people have been wondering if one can overdo

glutathione building, and I think you've found the answer, as well

as an idea of how much of the combined supplements and injections is

too much, at least in your case. That's one more data point than we

had before!

Rich

>

> > Ultimately, it seems to me that the desirable goal is to get the

> > sulfur metabolism working properly again, and then the levels of

> > cysteine, glutathione and the other sulfur metabolites will be

> > regulated at normal values. As I've discussed in earlier posts,

this

> > will require removing any blocks in the methylation cycle and

related

> > parts of the biochemistry, and in many PWCs, this may require

taking

> > supplements that directly target whatever genetic variations are

> > present, and compensating for them. The " brute force " approach

of

> > attempting to raise glutathione by direct means combined with

whey

> > protein products without dealing with these blocks earlier in the

> > sulfur metabolism may not work for everyone.

>

> Aw, it wasn't that complicated. I was just trying to boost

> glutathione levels in anticipation of a two-week trip during which

I

> 1) will be under considerable stress and 2) won't be able to get

> injections. I'm packing whey and liposomal GSH, and hoping

they'll

> keep me going. Based on this, it seems clear that they can

contribute

> quite a bit, and I probably won't have to worry. <g>.

>

> As for the longer-term issue of correcting methylation, I'm not

even

> thinking about that until I can get around to doing the genetic

> testing you recommended. The good news, though, is that I seem to

> tolerate several of the early items in that sequence much more

> readily when GSH levels are high. I've always done well with

> magnesium, folate, and B6 -- no problems (and much benefit) on

that

> front. Now, I can also handle taurine and TMG better as well. I'm

> going to sit with that for a while, and maybe try small doses of

SAMe

> and methionine some time in the far future if things continue to

be

> well. No hurry, though.

>

> My first thought about my current symptoms was that I was

releasing

> heavy metals, and I appreciate the confirmation.

>

> Sara

>

[Guest guest]

On Jun 14, 2006, at 9:43 AM, rvankonynen wrote:

> Hi, Sara.

>

> O.K., hopefully your excess cysteine (if that's what was going on)

> will be metabolized to sulfate and excreted, and you will feel

> better soon. Lots of people have been wondering if one can overdo

> glutathione building, and I think you've found the answer, as well

> as an idea of how much of the combined supplements and injections is

> too much, at least in your case. That's one more data point than we

> had before!

I'm considerably better today, thanks. Headaches are almost all gone,

no dizziness -- and my bowels are very, very busy now, getting rid of

it all.

Yeah, I'd say one could overdo this. To recap quantities, I got here

on the following combo:

-- 2800 mg of 10% GSH injected every 48 hours

-- I scoop RenewPro every morning

-- 1 tablespoon Essential GSH every afternoon (recommended dose is 1

teaspoon, but I was pulling out of a small crash last week and took

more)

-- 900 mg NAC in the am, and again pm

It took about a week of this to put me over the top. I suspect that

if I go back to injections every 3-4 days, and cut the GSH back to 1

teaspoon/day or even every other day, I'll be closer to my optimal load.

The data point I took away from this is: it answered my question

about whether liposomal oral GSH can be as potent in the system as

injected GSH. I'll be able to answer definitively when I get back

from my trip -- two weeks relying on the oral stuff alone -- but this

pointed up pretty clearly that significant quantities are definitely

making it through the system.

Sara