Guest guest Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Hi Janet: I was afraid of this!!! I am 48. I bet you are right. It is just such a weird thing when it is happening. In the past, when it only happened occasionally, I was told I was too young for menopause, yada, yada... As a PWC it is sometimes hard to figure out what is really what. I do know that this is new & different from my temperature issues in the past. Time for some tests! Thanks a lot for sharing :-? Teena On Tue, 30 May 2006 13:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Janet s <jgstev716@...> writes: > Teena, > > In my opinion, you are starting menopause. I went thru hell with > the flashing during the day and the sweats at night. I did not want > to take HRT and waited 3 years! At that point I did not care what > they gave me, I just wanted to be comfortable. So I am on low dose > HRT. It solved the problem. I would never give it up!!!! > > On another note, I am always cold, even in San Diego!!! > > Janet > in San Diego > > rudedog89@... wrote: > Hi : > > Yes, yes!! totally have the body temp dereg. Sorry to take so long > to > reply...been struggling with migraines. Do you have those too?? > > I wanted to comment on your temp plunges during the day. I've read > before > about how " well " people's bodies regulate for sleep by causing the > core > body temp to drop, maybe this is what is happening to you...just at > abnormal time(s)? > > Lately, I have been having mini hot flashes during the day and > terrible > sweats at night. I wake up looking like I have been through a war. > It is > most disconcerting. The thing is I seem to have bouts of this (every > couple of months then it stops). It is not all the time like I would > imagine the beginnings of menopause to be...but what do I know? > > My normal state of being is that I can't stand the heat at all and > have > to stay in a/c in the house. Although, I don't go anywhere without > a > jacket. Either too hot or too cold all the time...sometimes within > minutes of each other. > > Look forward to hearing how the Vit D3 does for you. > > Best Regards, > Teena > > On Thu, 25 May 2006 21:33:28 -0000 " netsukeme " > <kcapel@...> > writes: > > > I have temperature plunges but not every day, and I can't quite > > figure out what's going on. It doesn't seem to be related to > inside > > > > temperature (inside the house) and it happens anywhere from around > > > 11 > > am to 4 or 5 pm. Suddenly (and I do mean suddenly) I feel > > extraordinarily cold all over and I have no other choice but to > head > > for bed, where I curl up under a pile of blankets and fall asleep, > > > usally for 1.5 to around 3 hours. I have no idea why this > happens, > > but it's not a matter of " time " ...where I can actually think " oh, > a > > cup of hot soup or tea will fix me up. " It's not like that at > all. > > I MUST go lie down and I must wrap up in warm stuff, and then I > > inadvertently DO fall asleep. And there's no time for thinking > > about any of this. It's " automatic. " > > > > I don't have any inside sweats, though. But I'm past menopause, > so > > maybe there's a connection there? > > > > If I get any help from vitamin D3 with this, I'll keep you posted. > > > I've been taking 2400 to 3000 IU daily for the last couple of > weeks, > > > > and before that I'd upped my intake by probably half that for the > > previous month. I don't know how long it might take, if the D3 is > > > to > > help. Anyone have any ideas about this, or maybe it's > > just " individual " ? The sooner I get relief, the better. > > > > > > in Champaign IL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 21 May 2006 18:49:23 -0000 " netsukeme " <kcapel@...> > > > writes: > > > > > > Well, I know I am in good company! Maybe we should get T.Shirts > > > made....lol. > > > > > > ~Teena > > > Transylvania > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2006 Report Share Posted May 30, 2006 Teena, They gave me Femhrt 1/5 tab. THANK GOD!!! I wouldn't even bother with a test. I am also the one sharing your frustration on how to handle this disease. (I am the one that posted about what to do.) Janet in San Diego rudedog89@... wrote: Hi Janet: I was afraid of this!!! I am 48. I bet you are right. It is just such a weird thing when it is happening. In the past, when it only happened occasionally, I was told I was too young for menopause, yada, yada... As a PWC it is sometimes hard to figure out what is really what. I do know that this is new & different from my temperature issues in the past. Time for some tests! Thanks a lot for sharing :-? Teena On Tue, 30 May 2006 13:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Janet s writes: > Teena, > > In my opinion, you are starting menopause. I went thru hell with > the flashing during the day and the sweats at night. I did not want > to take HRT and waited 3 years! At that point I did not care what > they gave me, I just wanted to be comfortable. So I am on low dose > HRT. It solved the problem. I would never give it up!!!! > > On another note, I am always cold, even in San Diego!!! > > Janet > in San Diego > > rudedog89@... wrote: > Hi : > > Yes, yes!! totally have the body temp dereg. Sorry to take so long > to > reply...been struggling with migraines. Do you have those too?? > > I wanted to comment on your temp plunges during the day. I've read > before > about how " well " people's bodies regulate for sleep by causing the > core > body temp to drop, maybe this is what is happening to you...just at > abnormal time(s)? > > Lately, I have been having mini hot flashes during the day and > terrible > sweats at night. I wake up looking like I have been through a war. > It is > most disconcerting. The thing is I seem to have bouts of this (every > couple of months then it stops). It is not all the time like I would > imagine the beginnings of menopause to be...but what do I know? > > My normal state of being is that I can't stand the heat at all and > have > to stay in a/c in the house. Although, I don't go anywhere without > a > jacket. Either too hot or too cold all the time...sometimes within > minutes of each other. > > Look forward to hearing how the Vit D3 does for you. > > Best Regards, > Teena > > On Thu, 25 May 2006 21:33:28 -0000 " netsukeme " > > writes: > > > I have temperature plunges but not every day, and I can't quite > > figure out what's going on. It doesn't seem to be related to > inside > > > > temperature (inside the house) and it happens anywhere from around > > > 11 > > am to 4 or 5 pm. Suddenly (and I do mean suddenly) I feel > > extraordinarily cold all over and I have no other choice but to > head > > for bed, where I curl up under a pile of blankets and fall asleep, > > > usally for 1.5 to around 3 hours. I have no idea why this > happens, > > but it's not a matter of " time " ...where I can actually think " oh, > a > > cup of hot soup or tea will fix me up. " It's not like that at > all. > > I MUST go lie down and I must wrap up in warm stuff, and then I > > inadvertently DO fall asleep. And there's no time for thinking > > about any of this. It's " automatic. " > > > > I don't have any inside sweats, though. But I'm past menopause, > so > > maybe there's a connection there? > > > > If I get any help from vitamin D3 with this, I'll keep you posted. > > > I've been taking 2400 to 3000 IU daily for the last couple of > weeks, > > > > and before that I'd upped my intake by probably half that for the > > previous month. I don't know how long it might take, if the D3 is > > > to > > help. Anyone have any ideas about this, or maybe it's > > just " individual " ? The sooner I get relief, the better. > > > > > > in Champaign IL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 21 May 2006 18:49:23 -0000 " netsukeme " > > > writes: > > > > > > Well, I know I am in good company! Maybe we should get T.Shirts > > > made....lol. > > > > > > ~Teena > > > Transylvania > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 Hi Teena and Janet, I'm in the UK and not familiar with 'Femhrt' which sounds like a HRT product but I would advise extreme caution when using HRT with co-existent ME. I am 45 and have tried it twice - more recently with the assumption that my desperately awful temperature dysregulation (the worst of all the symptoms I have had with 36 yrs of this illness) could be due to menopause. All my tests came back as non-menopausal BTW. Both trials of HRT were a very big mistake, the more recent even more so. When I am eventually menopausal I will *not* resort to HRT to try to mitigate things. I appreciate we are all different and react differently, but be very careful and very circumspect about taking this stuff. If you do decide to try it, don't believe the c**p the gynae docs tell you - they have no idea how this stuff can react in pwme. Trust your own instincts all the way - and don't have implants - they're a bugger to remove!! Rosie Teena, They gave me Femhrt 1/5 tab. THANK GOD!!! I wouldn't even bother with a test. I am also the one sharing your frustration on how to handle this disease. (I am the one that posted about what to do.) Janet in San Diego rudedog89@... wrote: Hi Janet: I was afraid of this!!! I am 48. I bet you are right. It is just such a weird thing when it is happening. In the past, when it only happened occasionally, I was told I was too young for menopause, yada, yada... As a PWC it is sometimes hard to figure out what is really what. I do know that this is new & different from my temperature issues in the past. Time for some tests! Thanks a lot for sharing :-? Teena On Tue, 30 May 2006 13:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Janet s writes: > Teena, > > In my opinion, you are starting menopause. I went thru hell with > the flashing during the day and the sweats at night. I did not want > to take HRT and waited 3 years! At that point I did not care what > they gave me, I just wanted to be comfortable. So I am on low dose > HRT. It solved the problem. I would never give it up!!!! > > On another note, I am always cold, even in San Diego!!! > > Janet > in San Diego > > rudedog89@... wrote: > Hi : > > Yes, yes!! totally have the body temp dereg. Sorry to take so long > to > reply...been struggling with migraines. Do you have those too?? > > I wanted to comment on your temp plunges during the day. I've read > before > about how " well " people's bodies regulate for sleep by causing the > core > body temp to drop, maybe this is what is happening to you...just at > abnormal time(s)? > > Lately, I have been having mini hot flashes during the day and > terrible > sweats at night. I wake up looking like I have been through a war. > It is > most disconcerting. The thing is I seem to have bouts of this (every > couple of months then it stops). It is not all the time like I would > imagine the beginnings of menopause to be...but what do I know? > > My normal state of being is that I can't stand the heat at all and > have > to stay in a/c in the house. Although, I don't go anywhere without > a > jacket. Either too hot or too cold all the time...sometimes within > minutes of each other. > > Look forward to hearing how the Vit D3 does for you. > > Best Regards, > Teena > > On Thu, 25 May 2006 21:33:28 -0000 " netsukeme " > > writes: > > > I have temperature plunges but not every day, and I can't quite > > figure out what's going on. It doesn't seem to be related to > inside > > > > temperature (inside the house) and it happens anywhere from around > > > 11 > > am to 4 or 5 pm. Suddenly (and I do mean suddenly) I feel > > extraordinarily cold all over and I have no other choice but to > head > > for bed, where I curl up under a pile of blankets and fall asleep, > > > usally for 1.5 to around 3 hours. I have no idea why this > happens, > > but it's not a matter of " time " ...where I can actually think " oh, > a > > cup of hot soup or tea will fix me up. " It's not like that at > all. > > I MUST go lie down and I must wrap up in warm stuff, and then I > > inadvertently DO fall asleep. And there's no time for thinking > > about any of this. It's " automatic. " > > > > I don't have any inside sweats, though. But I'm past menopause, > so > > maybe there's a connection there? > > > > If I get any help from vitamin D3 with this, I'll keep you posted. > > > I've been taking 2400 to 3000 IU daily for the last couple of > weeks, > > > > and before that I'd upped my intake by probably half that for the > > previous month. I don't know how long it might take, if the D3 is > > > to > > help. Anyone have any ideas about this, or maybe it's > > just " individual " ? The sooner I get relief, the better. > > > > > > in Champaign IL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 21 May 2006 18:49:23 -0000 " netsukeme " > > > writes: > > > > > > Well, I know I am in good company! Maybe we should get T.Shirts > > > made....lol. > > > > > > ~Teena > > > Transylvania > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 On May 31, 2006, at 8:41 AM, Rosie wrote: > Hi Teena and Janet, > > I'm in the UK and not familiar with 'Femhrt' which sounds like a HRT > product but I would advise extreme caution when using HRT with > co-existent ME. I am 45 and have tried it twice - more recently with > the assumption that my desperately awful temperature dysregulation > (the > worst of all the symptoms I have had with 36 yrs of this illness) > could > be due to menopause. All my tests came back as non-menopausal BTW. > Both trials of HRT were a very big mistake, the more recent even more > so. When I am eventually menopausal I will *not* resort to HRT to try > to mitigate things. I appreciate we are all different and react > differently, but be very careful and very circumspect about taking > this > stuff. If you do decide to try it, don't believe the c**p the gynae > docs tell you - they have no idea how this stuff can react in pwme. > Trust your own instincts all the way - and don't have implants - > they're > a bugger to remove!! Rosie, in the US, doctors are pulling back from conventional HRT like rats fleeing a sinking ship. The NIH has declared the stuff unsafe, and nobody wants the liability issues. When they do it, they do it very carefully these days. If I'm guessing correctly, many of the women on this list who are doing HRT (me included) are sidestepping these issues entirely by using bioidentical plant-derived hormones instead. These are specifically compounded for each individual, so dosing is much more targeted; and the drug itself is much closer to what the body makes, so side effects are extremely minimal. It's a fairly new protocol, so the jury's still out on its long-term safety -- but there's not much question left that in the short run, it's safer, more effective, and much easier on the body when it comes to side effects. (The pharmaceutical companies are on the warpath bad-mouthing it, because this is completely undercutting their Premarin cash cow -- er, mare -- but their panicked claims are wholly unsupported by anything resembling actual data. Their argument basically boils down to: " What if a compounding pharmacist screws up? " But you can ask that about any compounded drug. If you can't trust your pharmacist, you have a problem, but it's not HRT.) I don't know that bioidenticals have caught on yet in the UK. I don't think there are many people anywhere who would argue with the premise that conventional HRT needs to be approached with extreme caution. (I'm a DES daughter, which means I don't go near synthetic estrogen in ANY form.) But many of us are extremely happy with the newer, gentler natural alternatives. ME does a real number on the endocrine system. There's no shortage of data pointing to the dreadful (and possibly life-threatening) effects this creates when we reach menopause. There are good therapies that can do much to reduce this, and I'm not sure what purpose is served by scaring people off something that so many of us have found so helpful. Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 Hi Rosie, Sara, Janet & : Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experiences both pro and con re: HRT and having CFS/ME. I had hormone levels drawn (FSH, etradiol, progesterone) and hopefully I can now make a more educated decision :-) ~Teena On Wed, 31 May 2006 11:12:09 -0700 Mercuria <mercuria@...> writes: > > On May 31, 2006, at 8:41 AM, Rosie wrote: > > > Hi Teena and Janet, > > > > I'm in the UK and not familiar with 'Femhrt' which sounds like a > HRT > > product but I would advise extreme caution when using HRT with > > co-existent ME. I am 45 and have tried it twice - more recently > with > > the assumption that my desperately awful temperature dysregulation > > > (the > > worst of all the symptoms I have had with 36 yrs of this illness) > > > could > > be due to menopause. All my tests came back as non-menopausal > BTW. > > Both trials of HRT were a very big mistake, the more recent even > more > > so. When I am eventually menopausal I will *not* resort to HRT to > try > > to mitigate things. I appreciate we are all different and react > > differently, but be very careful and very circumspect about taking > > > this > > stuff. If you do decide to try it, don't believe the c**p the > gynae > > docs tell you - they have no idea how this stuff can react in > pwme. > > Trust your own instincts all the way - and don't have implants - > > they're > > a bugger to remove!! > > Rosie, in the US, doctors are pulling back from conventional HRT > like > rats fleeing a sinking ship. The NIH has declared the stuff unsafe, > > and nobody wants the liability issues. When they do it, they do it > very carefully these days. > > If I'm guessing correctly, many of the women on this list who are > doing HRT (me included) are sidestepping these issues entirely by > using bioidentical plant-derived hormones instead. These are > specifically compounded for each individual, so dosing is much more > > targeted; and the drug itself is much closer to what the body makes, > > so side effects are extremely minimal. It's a fairly new protocol, > so > the jury's still out on its long-term safety -- but there's not much > > question left that in the short run, it's safer, more effective, and > > much easier on the body when it comes to side effects. (The > pharmaceutical companies are on the warpath bad-mouthing it, because > > this is completely undercutting their Premarin cash cow -- er, mare > > -- but their panicked claims are wholly unsupported by anything > resembling actual data. Their argument basically boils down to: > " What > if a compounding pharmacist screws up? " But you can ask that about > any compounded drug. If you can't trust your pharmacist, you have a > > problem, but it's not HRT.) > > I don't know that bioidenticals have caught on yet in the UK. I > don't > think there are many people anywhere who would argue with the > premise > that conventional HRT needs to be approached with extreme caution. > (I'm a DES daughter, which means I don't go near synthetic estrogen > > in ANY form.) But many of us are extremely happy with the newer, > gentler natural alternatives. > > ME does a real number on the endocrine system. There's no shortage > of > data pointing to the dreadful (and possibly life-threatening) > effects > this creates when we reach menopause. There are good therapies that > > can do much to reduce this, and I'm not sure what purpose is served > > by scaring people off something that so many of us have found so > helpful. > > Sara > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 Teena, The problem, most often, is estrogen dominance (relative) and the issue is progesterone deficit. IF estrogen is necessary, estriol is effective and MUCH safer than estridiol. Mel Re: Off topic - Menopause Hi Rosie, Sara, Janet & : Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experiences both pro and con re: HRT and having CFS/ME. I had hormone levels drawn (FSH, etradiol, progesterone) and hopefully I can now make a more educated decision :-) ~Teena On Wed, 31 May 2006 11:12:09 -0700 Mercuria <mercuria@...> writes: > > On May 31, 2006, at 8:41 AM, Rosie wrote: > > > Hi Teena and Janet, > > > > I'm in the UK and not familiar with 'Femhrt' which sounds like a > HRT > > product but I would advise extreme caution when using HRT with > > co-existent ME. I am 45 and have tried it twice - more recently > with > > the assumption that my desperately awful temperature dysregulation > > > (the > > worst of all the symptoms I have had with 36 yrs of this illness) > > > could > > be due to menopause. All my tests came back as non-menopausal > BTW. > > Both trials of HRT were a very big mistake, the more recent even > more > > so. When I am eventually menopausal I will *not* resort to HRT to > try > > to mitigate things. I appreciate we are all different and react > > differently, but be very careful and very circumspect about taking > > > this > > stuff. If you do decide to try it, don't believe the c**p the > gynae > > docs tell you - they have no idea how this stuff can react in > pwme. > > Trust your own instincts all the way - and don't have implants - > > they're > > a bugger to remove!! > > Rosie, in the US, doctors are pulling back from conventional HRT > like > rats fleeing a sinking ship. The NIH has declared the stuff unsafe, > > and nobody wants the liability issues. When they do it, they do it > very carefully these days. > > If I'm guessing correctly, many of the women on this list who are > doing HRT (me included) are sidestepping these issues entirely by > using bioidentical plant-derived hormones instead. These are > specifically compounded for each individual, so dosing is much more > > targeted; and the drug itself is much closer to what the body makes, > > so side effects are extremely minimal. It's a fairly new protocol, > so > the jury's still out on its long-term safety -- but there's not much > > question left that in the short run, it's safer, more effective, and > > much easier on the body when it comes to side effects. (The > pharmaceutical companies are on the warpath bad-mouthing it, because > > this is completely undercutting their Premarin cash cow -- er, mare > > -- but their panicked claims are wholly unsupported by anything > resembling actual data. Their argument basically boils down to: > " What > if a compounding pharmacist screws up? " But you can ask that about > any compounded drug. If you can't trust your pharmacist, you have a > > problem, but it's not HRT.) > > I don't know that bioidenticals have caught on yet in the UK. I > don't > think there are many people anywhere who would argue with the > premise > that conventional HRT needs to be approached with extreme caution. > (I'm a DES daughter, which means I don't go near synthetic estrogen > > in ANY form.) But many of us are extremely happy with the newer, > gentler natural alternatives. > > ME does a real number on the endocrine system. There's no shortage > of > data pointing to the dreadful (and possibly life-threatening) > effects > this creates when we reach menopause. There are good therapies that > > can do much to reduce this, and I'm not sure what purpose is served > > by scaring people off something that so many of us have found so > helpful. > > Sara > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2006 Report Share Posted June 1, 2006 Hi Sara, Apologies for not responding to your mail below - I've been having trouble with my mail - a lot hasn't been coming through so this is the first time I have seen your comments. Little is indeed being done re bio-identical hormones in the UK for menopause though I have tried natural progesterone with unpleasant results. I accept what you say, and my comments are to do only with synthetic versions, but I nevertheless stand by them entirely. I did point out that we are all different, but the extremely negative impact of these preparations on me as a sufferer of ME for 36 yrs was very profound. I feel it more important to warn people of these possible dangers so that they may make informed decisions than the concern that I may be scaremongering. The last HRT trial was implemented through a supposedly leading ME specialist/neurologist, and by one of this countries foremost gynaecologists, but despite this I was made very very ill with these procedures. Despite my previous experience with a trial of HRT (albeit in a different form) it was still thought that I should try it and being *so* unwell and vulnerable at the time acceded to their request. All I was getting from them was the positive; 'you'll feel great in 6 months'; rubbish. I had to argue the case to have the implant removed - they really didn't want to do it! All I'm saying is .... be very very careful. It may well be that bio-identical hormones are much easier to tolerate, but I have tried this in terms of thyroid supplementation and this also did not work for me. I think it better to tell it how it is, I know that when I'm considering trying the next treatment I want all shades of opinion/experience that enables me to make a balanced decision. Rosie Hi Rosie, Sara, Janet & : Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experiences both pro and con re: HRT and having CFS/ME. I had hormone levels drawn (FSH, etradiol, progesterone) and hopefully I can now make a more educated decision :-) ~Teena On Wed, 31 May 2006 11:12:09 -0700 Mercuria <mercuria@...> writes: > > On May 31, 2006, at 8:41 AM, Rosie wrote: > > > Hi Teena and Janet, > > > > I'm in the UK and not familiar with 'Femhrt' which sounds like a > HRT > > product but I would advise extreme caution when using HRT with > > co-existent ME. I am 45 and have tried it twice - more recently > with > > the assumption that my desperately awful temperature dysregulation > > > (the > > worst of all the symptoms I have had with 36 yrs of this illness) > > > could > > be due to menopause. All my tests came back as non-menopausal > BTW. > > Both trials of HRT were a very big mistake, the more recent even > more > > so. When I am eventually menopausal I will *not* resort to HRT to > try > > to mitigate things. I appreciate we are all different and react > > differently, but be very careful and very circumspect about taking > > > this > > stuff. If you do decide to try it, don't believe the c**p the > gynae > > docs tell you - they have no idea how this stuff can react in > pwme. > > Trust your own instincts all the way - and don't have implants - > > they're > > a bugger to remove!! > > Rosie, in the US, doctors are pulling back from conventional HRT > like > rats fleeing a sinking ship. The NIH has declared the stuff unsafe, > > and nobody wants the liability issues. When they do it, they do it > very carefully these days. > > If I'm guessing correctly, many of the women on this list who are > doing HRT (me included) are sidestepping these issues entirely by > using bioidentical plant-derived hormones instead. These are > specifically compounded for each individual, so dosing is much more > > targeted; and the drug itself is much closer to what the body makes, > > so side effects are extremely minimal. It's a fairly new protocol, > so > the jury's still out on its long-term safety -- but there's not much > > question left that in the short run, it's safer, more effective, and > > much easier on the body when it comes to side effects. (The > pharmaceutical companies are on the warpath bad-mouthing it, because > > this is completely undercutting their Premarin cash cow -- er, mare > > -- but their panicked claims are wholly unsupported by anything > resembling actual data. Their argument basically boils down to: > " What > if a compounding pharmacist screws up? " But you can ask that about > any compounded drug. If you can't trust your pharmacist, you have a > > problem, but it's not HRT.) > > I don't know that bioidenticals have caught on yet in the UK. I > don't > think there are many people anywhere who would argue with the > premise > that conventional HRT needs to be approached with extreme caution. > (I'm a DES daughter, which means I don't go near synthetic estrogen > > in ANY form.) But many of us are extremely happy with the newer, > gentler natural alternatives. > > ME does a real number on the endocrine system. There's no shortage > of > data pointing to the dreadful (and possibly life-threatening) > effects > this creates when we reach menopause. There are good therapies that > > can do much to reduce this, and I'm not sure what purpose is served > > by scaring people off something that so many of us have found so > helpful. > > Sara > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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