Re: Porphyrins and heavy metals in autism--application to CFS?

May 25, 2006

Hi Rich,

<Multiple mechanisms of chemical injury that magnify response to

exposures in chemically sensitive patients can include neurogenic

inflammation (respiratory, gastrointestinal, genitourinary), kindling

and time-dependent sensitization (neurologic), impaired porphyrin

metabolism (multiple organs), and immune activation.>

What does " kindling " mean in this context?

May 26, 2006

Hi, .

Here's what Stedman's Medical Dictionary says:

" kindling--Long-lasting epileptogenic changes induced by daily

subthreshold electrical brain stimulation without apparent neuronal

damage. "

I guess it must have been thought to be sort of analogous to

lighting a wood fire. You start by lighting paper, leaves and

little sticks, and over the course of time the heat released by

their combustion raises the temperature of the logs to their

kindling temperature, and then they catch fire. And you can't " see "

the temperature of the logs coming up. Sounds like an apt choice of

a word to me. Interesting.

Rich

>

> Hi Rich,

>

> <Multiple mechanisms of chemical injury that magnify response to

> exposures in chemically sensitive patients can include neurogenic

> inflammation (respiratory, gastrointestinal, genitourinary),

kindling

> and time-dependent sensitization (neurologic), impaired porphyrin

> metabolism (multiple organs), and immune activation.>

>

> What does " kindling " mean in this context?

>

May 26, 2006

Hi Rich. I have Stedman's right here. And I never thought to look

in it. See the level of disconnect going on in me? Same as me not

thinking of looking in the dictionary last week when I didn't

understand something. If a shrink got a hold of me, he'd say I was

disconnecting so to repress (because words and dictionaries

and " medical " this-and-that is supposed to be my forte)...but I'm

afraid it's not that simple.

I have no idea what " epileptogenic changes " means. Can you help with

an example?

I've just come in from running a few errands. The temp in Champaign

is 80 F, the humidity is 57%, and the dew point is 64 F. I know that

dew point is high, but I still feel like I've been out in 100+ temps,

and it's not anywhere near what the height of the summer is around

here.

My short-term answer for why the sun and heat affect me so is that

all weathermen are liars -- and the sun is really really ramped up

and we're all about to go poooof.

Thank you, Rich.

>

> Hi, .

>

> Here's what Stedman's Medical Dictionary says:

>

> " kindling--Long-lasting epileptogenic changes induced by daily

> subthreshold electrical brain stimulation without apparent neuronal

> damage. "

>

> I guess it must have been thought to be sort of analogous to

> lighting a wood fire. You start by lighting paper, leaves and

> little sticks, and over the course of time the heat released by

> their combustion raises the temperature of the logs to their

> kindling temperature, and then they catch fire. And you

can't " see "

> the temperature of the logs coming up. Sounds like an apt choice

of

> a word to me. Interesting.

>

> Rich

>

May 26, 2006

THis is brain excitement that can lead to the onset of actual seizures.

Good idea to calm the brain to avoid that electrical firestorm. A bit of

prevention here can ward off loads of long term misery.

Diet is key and so is recognizing the disorganizing triggers.

Did I say fish oil, sunlight/vitamin D, Magnesium+B6, l-taurine and

absolutely no junkfood, white flour ad nauseum?

In a message dated 5/26/2006 6:50:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

writes:

I have no idea what " epileptogenic changes " means. Can you help with

an example?

mjh

" The Basil Book "

http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/

May 26, 2006

Hi, .

Epileptogenic means tending to produce seizures.

Good luck on putting off the poooof!

Rich

> >

> > Hi, .

> >

> > Here's what Stedman's Medical Dictionary says:

> >

> > " kindling--Long-lasting epileptogenic changes induced by daily

> > subthreshold electrical brain stimulation without apparent

neuronal

> > damage. "

> >

> > I guess it must have been thought to be sort of analogous to

> > lighting a wood fire. You start by lighting paper, leaves and

> > little sticks, and over the course of time the heat released by

> > their combustion raises the temperature of the logs to their

> > kindling temperature, and then they catch fire. And you

> can't " see "

> > the temperature of the logs coming up. Sounds like an apt

choice

> of

> > a word to me. Interesting.

> >

> > Rich

> >

>

May 26, 2006

Rich? Here's that whole paragraph again...

<Multiple mechanisms of chemical injury that magnify response to

exposures in chemically sensitive patients can include neurogenic

inflammation (respiratory, gastrointestinal, genitourinary), kindling

and time-dependent sensitization (neurologic), impaired porphyrin

metabolism (multiple organs), and immune activation.>

If I now know that epileptogenic means tending to produce seizures,

does this help explain why my body and head seem to " buzz " like

my " circuits are fried " after I've been out in high sun too long?

Is this from the not-much exposure I had to resins in art in school

in the 80s and/or my pesticide exposure from spraying the yard for

fleas?

I have a feeling I'm putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5 instead

of 4, and then I'm adding in 2 again and getting 9 instead of 6.

Help with understanding, please?

Maybe I was safer thinking only that all weathermen are liars?

> >

> > Hi Rich. I have Stedman's right here. And I never thought to

> look

> > in it. See the level of disconnect going on in me? Same as me

> not

> > thinking of looking in the dictionary last week when I didn't

> > understand something. If a shrink got a hold of me, he'd say I

> was

> > disconnecting so to repress (because words and dictionaries

> > and " medical " this-and-that is supposed to be my forte)...but I'm

> > afraid it's not that simple.

> >

> > I have no idea what " epileptogenic changes " means. Can you help

> with

> > an example?

> >

> > I've just come in from running a few errands. The temp in

> Champaign

> > is 80 F, the humidity is 57%, and the dew point is 64 F. I know

> that

> > dew point is high, but I still feel like I've been out in 100+

> temps,

> > and it's not anywhere near what the height of the summer is

around

> > here.

> >

> > My short-term answer for why the sun and heat affect me so is

that

> > all weathermen are liars -- and the sun is really really ramped

up

> > and we're all about to go poooof.

> >

> > Thank you, Rich.

> >

>

May 26, 2006

Yeah, well, I think I'm already into the " loads of long-term misery "

part here, mjh.

I understand the food stuff, really pretty well. And since I'm an

old bat, I take lessons easier (at least about this) than a spring

chicken would, and I'm doing pretty well in that department -- diet.

I have a really good impetus for this: I feel like hell half the

time and I live like a vampire!

And speaking of which (the sun), again, I went out a second time

today, after 4 pm, when it was 5 degrees warmer than it was when I

went out around noon, and it did not affect me as it did at noon. I

am really starting to think that I'm allergic to the sun's rays.

I s'pose the sun could be somehow kicking up old toxins (but how?),

and that's definitely a possibility in my case if it's even possible

in general. I don't know the hows of this though.

I am being a very good doggy re. the junk food and white flour...and

especially re. the " ad nauseum, " mjh!

>

> THis is brain excitement that can lead to the onset of actual

seizures.

> Good idea to calm the brain to avoid that electrical firestorm. A

bit of

> prevention here can ward off loads of long term misery.

>

> Diet is key and so is recognizing the disorganizing triggers.

>

> Did I say fish oil, sunlight/vitamin D, Magnesium+B6, l-taurine

and

> absolutely no junkfood, white flour ad nauseum?

>

> mjh

> " The Basil Book "

> http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/

>

May 27, 2006

, you might want to look at " acquired porphyria " from Dr.

Stratton & Dr. Weldon's perspective, as a side effect of endotoxins

created by c.pneumonia (as well as many other bacteria). The toxic

damage you're talking about doesn't have to come from external

sources. Plus, bacterial infections can cause seizures, especially

if they've created a fistula to the brain.

I don't know if there's scientific research to support it, but

anecdotal research certainly suggests that changes of environment

(such as more sun, drier or damper conditions) can either activate

or suppress bacterial infections' toxic output for the short term.

penny

> <Multiple mechanisms of chemical injury that magnify response to

> exposures in chemically sensitive patients can include neurogenic

> inflammation (respiratory, gastrointestinal, genitourinary),

kindling and time-dependent sensitization (neurologic), impaired

porphyrin metabolism (multiple organs), and immune activation.>

>

> If I now know that epileptogenic means tending to produce

seizures, does this help explain why my body and head seem to " buzz "

like my " circuits are fried " after I've been out in high sun too

long?

>

> Is this from the not-much exposure I had to resins in art in

school in the 80s and/or my pesticide exposure from spraying the

yard for

> fleas?

>

> I have a feeling I'm putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5

instead of 4, and then I'm adding in 2 again and getting 9 instead

of 6.

>

May 27, 2006

Mmm, I should have included fungi along with bacteria as organisms

that can create fistuals to the brain, causing seizures.

penny

>

> , you might want to look at " acquired porphyria " from Dr.

> Stratton & Dr. Weldon's perspective, as a side effect of

endotoxins

> created by c.pneumonia (as well as many other bacteria). The toxic

> damage you're talking about doesn't have to come from external

> sources. Plus, bacterial infections can cause seizures, especially

> if they've created a fistula to the brain.

>

> I don't know if there's scientific research to support it, but

> anecdotal research certainly suggests that changes of environment

> (such as more sun, drier or damper conditions) can either activate

> or suppress bacterial infections' toxic output for the short term.

>

> penny

>

May 27, 2006

Hi Penny,

I guess I'm just more confused, as usual. This has been going on

with me since the late 70s, so that's not sudden or short term in

terms of " now. " It's just gotten worse over time. Plus I just don't

relate to " seizure " at all. I really relate to " heat stroke. " But

this is obviously based on only my own experience, and maybe I am

just incorrectly relating things because my knowledge base is what it

is and it's faulty or partial.

>

> > <Multiple mechanisms of chemical injury that magnify response to

> > exposures in chemically sensitive patients can include neurogenic

> > inflammation (respiratory, gastrointestinal, genitourinary),

> kindling and time-dependent sensitization (neurologic), impaired

> porphyrin metabolism (multiple organs), and immune activation.>

> >

> > If I now know that epileptogenic means tending to produce

> seizures, does this help explain why my body and head seem

to " buzz "

> like my " circuits are fried " after I've been out in high sun too

> long?

> >

> > Is this from the not-much exposure I had to resins in art in

> school in the 80s and/or my pesticide exposure from spraying the

> yard for

> > fleas?

> >

> > I have a feeling I'm putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5

> instead of 4, and then I'm adding in 2 again and getting 9 instead

> of 6.

>

> >

>

May 27, 2006

penny wrote:

> I don't know if there's scientific research to support it, but

> anecdotal research certainly suggests that changes of environment

> (such as more sun, drier or damper conditions) can either activate

> or suppress bacterial infections' toxic output for the short term.

>

I live in a damp climate (I was born here) and have been thinking about

trying to move to a warm dry climate to see if that might alleviate some

of my symptoms.

But based on the order in which you placed the items in the clauses

" more sun, drier or damper conditions " and " can either activate or

suppress bacterial infections " ; it appears you might be saying that a

sunny dry climate could activate infections whereas a damper climate

might suppress them.

Am I reading into your statement something that isn't really there?

Will in Seattle

a.k.a. " Sleepless "

May 27, 2006

penny wrote:

I don't know if there's scientific research to support it, but

anecdotal research certainly suggests that changes of environment

(such as more sun, drier or damper conditions) can either activate

or suppress bacterial infections' toxic output for the short term.<

Sleepless in Seattle wrote:

I live in a damp climate (I was born here) and have been thinking

about trying to move to a warm dry climate to see if that might

alleviate some of my symptoms. <

Funny. I told both of you my story years ago.

Our evidence is just a bit more than " anecdotal " now.

-

May 28, 2006

Bascially, I'm saying " all of the above " . Any climate or

environmental change seems to be able to impact your bacterial load,

at least until it adapts to its new surroundings. I've talked to so

many people who go to Alaska or the desert, or the tropics, and will

say they felt " so much better in the (cold/dry/hot,etc.) " for a few

weeks to months, then relapsed. Also, people with say, chronic

bronchial infections, may go to a more humid climate and almost

immediately get sick, because it's a good environment for their

bugs. So all I'm saying is that an environment change can have a

positive (or negative) impact on your health, but that usually the

bacteria, after experiencing a setback, will adapt and then do fine

while you relapse. Moving from a damp climate MIGHT actually be a

good idea, MIGHT help you, but whether that will last depends on how

dependent your organisms are on their current moist environment. I

had a lot of respiratory infections as a child, and I lived in

Oregon, a very damp place. I now live in San Diego, a very dry

place, and yet I became sicker than I ever was in Oregon. I no

longer have respiratory symptoms, but the bugs burrowed into my jaw

and sinuses and create even more havoc now. But at least I don't

have respiratory infections anymore. :-)

penny

> > I don't know if there's scientific research to support it, but

> > anecdotal research certainly suggests that changes of

environment

> > (such as more sun, drier or damper conditions) can either

activate

> > or suppress bacterial infections' toxic output for the short

term.

> >

> I live in a damp climate (I was born here) and have been thinking

about

> trying to move to a warm dry climate to see if that might

alleviate some

> of my symptoms.

>

> But based on the order in which you placed the items in the

clauses

> " more sun, drier or damper conditions " and " can either activate or

> suppress bacterial infections " ; it appears you might be saying

that a

> sunny dry climate could activate infections whereas a damper

climate

> might suppress them.

>

> Am I reading into your statement something that isn't really there?

>

> Will in Seattle

> a.k.a. " Sleepless "

>

May 28, 2006

, I'm not disputing your claims. But if I remember, you moved

around quite a bit. This would support the idea that improvements

may have been short lived if you hadn't kept moving? Just a wild

thought. What if the best treatment turns out to be to keep moving

and get the organisms so confused and defensive that they decide

you're a bad host afterall and just up and take off? :-)

penny

> I live in a damp climate (I was born here) and have been thinking

> about trying to move to a warm dry climate to see if that might

> alleviate some of my symptoms. <

>

> Funny. I told both of you my story years ago.

> Our evidence is just a bit more than " anecdotal " now.

> -

>

May 28, 2006

I keep forgetting to include fungi, in addition to bacteria, as

possibly being affected by a change of climate/environment. Pretty

important possibility.

penny

>

> Bascially, I'm saying " all of the above " . Any climate or

> environmental change seems to be able to impact your bacterial load,

> at least until it adapts to its new surroundings.

May 28, 2006

Penny,

I also live in San Diego and I notice when I go to Arizona for vacation I feel

better. Do you know of a doctor here in SD that seems to stand out for you???

Janet

in San Diego

penny <pennyhoule@...> wrote: