bioidentical thyroid hormones

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

I am wondering if anyone has any advice or suggestions. I started

taking bioidentical T3 about a 2 months ago. I was prescribed 10 mcg

for the first 10 days, then 20 mcg everyday after that. The most that

I have been able to get up to is 10 mcg every other day. And even

that, I am having a really hard time tolerating. It seems that the

days I do take it, I am so tired, I just drag. This doesn't make any

sense to me at all. The opposite should be true. I have some other

side effects that are to be expected such as some mild nausea and

sometimes loose stools, occasionally a headache, but nothing as severe

as this fatigue. Does anyone have any idea what this could be about?

Thanks so much for any help,

Dawn M

[Guest guest]

I was on levoxyl for 2 decades. Now on half

levoxyl dose and 3 grains of armour. What are

bioidentical T3 and how does this relate or not to

what they are moving me to i.e. more armour..

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On

Behalf Of Dawn

Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 2:40 PM

Subject: bioidentical thyroid

hormones

Hi all,

I am wondering if anyone has any advice or

suggestions. I started

taking bioidentical T3 about a 2 months ago. I

was prescribed 10 mcg

for the first 10 days, then 20 mcg everyday after

that. The most that

I have been able to get up to is 10 mcg every

other day. And even

that, I am having a really hard time tolerating.

It seems that the

days I do take it, I am so tired, I just drag.

This doesn't make any

sense to me at all. The opposite should be true.

I have some other

side effects that are to be expected such as some

mild nausea and

sometimes loose stools, occasionally a headache,

but nothing as severe

as this fatigue. Does anyone have any idea what

this could be about?

Thanks so much for any help,

Dawn M

This list is intended for patients to share

personal experiences with each other, not to give

medical advice. If you are interested in any

treatment discussed here, please consult your

doctor.

[Guest guest]

On May 22, 2006, at 9:22 PM, Dawn Munn wrote:

> I believe that levoxyl is a synthetic form of T4, but I am not

> positive.

That's right.

> Hopefully someone else will correct me if I am wrong. Armour, I

> know, is made from pigs. I really don't know much else about it.

> But neither of those are bioidentical.

> Bioidentical means that they are compounded at a pharmacy, (made

> just for me, from plants) to be exactly like the hormone in my

> body. So, I would have to say that what you are taking is not at

> all the same thing that I am talking about. I am not really sure

> what else you are asking. I do know that others here on the list

> take Armour, so if you have specific questions, hopefully they can

> help.

Armour is dessicated pig thyroid, which is (to my knowledge) the

source of all " bioidentical " thyroid. Thyroid is made by animal

thyroid glands; I'm not aware that there are any plant-based

equivalents available, so I find this statement rather surprising.

Dessicated thyroid products contain mostly T4,with some ratio of T3

included -- which makes it a better choice for many of us.

I used to take Armour, or the equivalent dessicated pig product from

Parke- (which is all that's sold in Canada). Now, I get custom

compounded dessicated thyroid. It's basically no different than

Armour, only it's " homemade " at the pharmacy. It is, so far as I

know, the most " bioidentical " thyroid product you can buy.

Sara

[Guest guest]

On May 22, 2006, at 10:05 PM, Dawn Munn wrote:

> Hi Kathy,

>

> I believe I have hypothyroid. Yes, my medication is being

> compounded. No, I am not on any adrenal support. In fact, I am

> embarrassed to admit that I really don't know much about it or how

> to go about doing it. Is it something I can do for myself? Or is

> it something I need to see a doctor for? Do you also take

> bioidentical thyroid medication? DO you think it is possible that

> I need to increase my dose? Start taking it every day? I just

> really don't know much. Please educate me with any information you

> are willing to share.

DHEA is sort of a quick-and-dirty form of adrenal support. It's the

main thing the adrenals produce. If your adrenals aren't making

enough of it, you may not metabolize thyroid well -- and that might

be why it's wiping you out.

Other forms of adrenal support are also helpful. But the DHEA is

something very effective you can do cheap and quick to get things

back into balance -- if, indeed, adrenals are the problem. If they're

not, and it doesn't help, just stop taking it.

Sara

[Guest guest]

Hi Sara-

How did you figure this out with the DHEA? Was this a trial and error on your

part of did a doc suggest this to you?

Kathy

----------------------------------------------------------------

Dawn, this is exactly what happens to me when I take any kind of

thyroid without taking DHEA alongside it.

You might give it a shot. DHEA is cheap and easy to find. I'd start

with a DHEA dose that's 50% of my thyroid dose. (In practice, the

actual ratio is about a third -- 40 mg DHEA and 120 mg of thyroid

daily -- but 50% is a good place to start.) Might work. Might not.

But it's a cheap, easy, fast, and reasonably likely solution.

Sara

On May 22, 2006, at 11:39 AM, Dawn wrote:

> Hi all,

>

> I am wondering if anyone has any advice or suggestions. I started

> taking bioidentical T3 about a 2 months ago. I was prescribed 10 mcg

> for the first 10 days, then 20 mcg everyday after that. The most that

> I have been able to get up to is 10 mcg every other day. And even

> that, I am having a really hard time tolerating. It seems that the

> days I do take it, I am so tired, I just drag. This doesn't make any

> sense to me at all. The opposite should be true. I have some other

> side effects that are to be expected such as some mild nausea and

> sometimes loose stools, occasionally a headache, but nothing as severe

> as this fatigue. Does anyone have any idea what this could be about?

---------------------------------

Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls with Messenger with Voice.

[Guest guest]

On May 24, 2006, at 2:42 PM, baahstun@... wrote:

> Hi Sara-

>

> How did you figure this out with the DHEA? Was this a trial and

> error on your part of did a doc suggest this to you?

It's got to be trial and error. He suggested that I start with half a

milligram of DHEA per microgram of thyroid.

Sara

>

> Kathy

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------

>

> Dawn, this is exactly what happens to me when I take any kind of

> thyroid without taking DHEA alongside it.

>

> You might give it a shot. DHEA is cheap and easy to find. I'd start

> with a DHEA dose that's 50% of my thyroid dose. (In practice, the

> actual ratio is about a third -- 40 mg DHEA and 120 mg of thyroid

> daily -- but 50% is a good place to start.) Might work. Might not.

> But it's a cheap, easy, fast, and reasonably likely solution.

>

> Sara

>

>

> On May 22, 2006, at 11:39 AM, Dawn wrote:

>

>> Hi all,

>>

>> I am wondering if anyone has any advice or suggestions. I started

>> taking bioidentical T3 about a 2 months ago. I was prescribed 10 mcg

>> for the first 10 days, then 20 mcg everyday after that. The most

>> that

>> I have been able to get up to is 10 mcg every other day. And even

>> that, I am having a really hard time tolerating. It seems that the

>> days I do take it, I am so tired, I just drag. This doesn't make any

>> sense to me at all. The opposite should be true. I have some other

>> side effects that are to be expected such as some mild nausea and

>> sometimes loose stools, occasionally a headache, but nothing as

>> severe

>> as this fatigue. Does anyone have any idea what this could be about?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Be a chatter box. Enjoy free PC-to-PC calls with Messenger

> with Voice.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dawn-

How do you know you are hypo? Did they run tests? Did they also run a test

on you to see if antibodies are being produced by your body, ie: Hashimotos

Disease?

Your compounded thyroid medication...are they putting a sustained releasing

agent in it or is it an immediate release?

Have you ever tried the 's Protocol?

Depending on the source, many gurus believe that too much thyroid

supplementation can have a suppressive effect on the thyroid thus when TSH is

remeasured, it is high. The tendency is to increase the dose, rather than

decreasing it which would be the appropriate action, or at least it has been for

me.

Unless technology has changed, my resources indicate that there is still no

such thing as natural T4...T4 is made in a lab. As far as the T3, much of it is

a dessicated source, usually pig based. Because it is not from a lab, I guess

that gives them the ok to call it a " natural " thyroid.

Dr Serafina Corsello write in her book The Ageless Woman that it is never a

good idea to treat the thyroid without treating the adrenals first. Others have

posted about success with DHEA...I also know of others who have had adrenal

support success with compounded natural progesterone. However, due to the

complex nature of the individuals metabolism, success using these products can

also depend on whether that person is an effective and efficient converter and

whether these precursors are being converted correctly into what is downstream

from it. I am a very poor converter of hormones, it's part of my original

chemical compromise when I was in utero. I just don't convert things the way it

does in a normal person. That makes me a huge challenge with doctors.

I have been through every adrenal test out there...the stim tests, the am/pm,

the straight draws, and finally when I went out of state, was able to get an

adrenal saliva which the test, as usual, did not come back with anything other

that one weird spike in my cortisol. It was the hair analysis run by ARL that

found the adrenal exhaustion. I just got back from seeing my Virginia doc who

has just started me, after trying a ton of other stuff, on Cortef.

I am still taking my compounded SR T3/T4 combo. Yes, it is sustained release.

I found when doing all the other thyroids through the years before the SR was

offered to me, that symptoms like yours could be minimized by cutting the

Armour, or whatever I was taking at the time and pulsing it through the day. I

know some people who can't take the rush when they first take it so they do the

12 hour apart dose schedule. In my case with the compounds, I have done all

sorts of combinations with various products. The SR version I am on now has

been the best so far. There is great controversy on whether the SR agents can

bind to T4 but in my case, it has made taking this stuff much less of a hit. I

am also in contact with my compound pharmacy at lot with various issues and

follow up on the thyroid stuff often. There was this thing a few years ago when

thyroid bases went through some problem with inconsistency in the US so I am

always on top of that with them.

Excellent websites on various aspects of thyroid:

http://www.wilsonssyndrome.com/

http://www.brodabarnes.org/

http://www.drbrownstein.com/index.shtml

http://drlowe.com/

Please not that I am not a doctor, just someone who's been sick for a while.

My nemesis is my entire hormonal and endocrine system. So, I have put a lot of

time and energy into trying to educate myself on the complicated subject. Here

is a cut and paste of my notes from various sources including books and even

discussions from this group. Please note, this is very subject to error with my

brain fog, etc:

Kathy

START OF NOTES:

The thyroid system regulates body’s metabolic rate. The purpose of the

thyroid system is to maintain a normal body temperature.

T4 is the raw material to make active T3. Active T3 is what the body needs.

TSH and T4 shows thyroid hormone in blood, not how effectively T3 is affecting

the cells. T3 conversion happens in the tissues of the body. No test can test

what’s happening in the tissues and cells of the body. WTS is essentially a

stress and starvation mechanism gone amuck. Production of thyroid hormone is

often normal; the processing of that hormone in the tissue can get bogged down.

WTS is a low thyroid problem, happening “downstream” from the blood stream,

therefore undiagnosable with thyroid tests. This downstream part of the thyroid

system is responsible for processing or converting T4 into active T3. Almost

all the active T3 in the body is produced from T4 after T4 leaves the blood

stream.

Under physical, mental or emotional stress the body slows down the metabolism

by decreasing the amount of T4 that is converted to active T3 while increasing

the amount that is converted into the inactive by-product called Reverse T3.

This is done to conserve energy. When stressed or starved, the T4 to T3

conversion decreases and the cells of the body slow down so the body temperature

drops. When the temperature drops, many of the body’s enzymes do not function

as well. When the stress is over, the metabolism is supposed to speed back up

to normal. This does not happen correctly in thyroid disorders.

RT3 can build so high that it can start hogging the enzyme that converts T4 to

T3. This enzyme is called 5’-Deiodinase.

Solution: Clearing out the RT3 so the tissues can reset the system and

function normally on its own again. Bring down the level of RT3 to also

decrease T4. No T4 = no active T3 so the body has to start making it’s own

again.

Summary: Administering direct pure T3 reduces TSH because the body sees it

has enough thyroid hormone. So the message is not sent by the TSH to make T4,

which is then converted to RT3 or T3. Cannot do T3 therapy long term as it will

weaken long term T4 production.

Period of stress induces T4 conversion into the biologically inert

stereoisomer called Reverse T3. RT3 is a mirror image of active T3 and fits

well into T3 cell-membrane receptor sites upside down. Once bound to these

receptors, RT3 prevents active T3 from binding, thus preventing thyroid

activation at these receptor sites. Important to note that the symptoms of poor

conversion & /or receptor sites blocked with RT3 can also be similar to symptoms

of adrenal insufficiency from high/low cortisol & /or DHEA.

Hypothyroidism: High TSH and low T4 and T3. Patient’s thyroid gland has

lost its organ reserve capacity to produce adequate levels of T4 and T3. These

patients need to take thyroid replacement continually. However, hypothyroid

patients may also be poor converters of T4 into T3 and neither T4 nor glandular

thyroid replacement will optimize these patients. Combination T4 and T3 is

indicated here.

The body will save energy example: maintenance of skin, our largest organ.

By decreasing energy to maintain = dry skin, dry hair, hair loss, brittle

nails.etc. Poor healing. Don’t need food as much. LUXURY FUNCTIONS SUCH AS

SEX DRIVE ARE THE FIRST TO GO. The more important functions, hearing, heart

breathing are not a greatly affected by body temperature.

Progesterone and pregnenolone activate thyroid function

Estrogen opposes thyroid function

Conventional treatments:

T3/T4 combos: Immediate release T3. Also contain T4, which is what we’re

trying to reduce to deplete the RT3 levels.

T4: Symptoms improve but come back, typically after 2-3 months. Dr.

increases dose. Feel better for a while then worse. Eventually, T4 may be

increased and patient gets worse right off the bat.

Avoid Goitrogens: broccoli cauliflower cabbage turnips mustards greens kale

spinach brussel sprouts kohlrabi rutabagas horseradish radish and white mustard

Consume: molasses, egg yolks, parsley, apricots, dates, prunes, fish,

chicken, raw milk, cheeses

Temperature:

Shake down thermometer to 96.0. Take temperature for 7 minutes

Nothing hot or cold at least 15 minutes prior

Do pulse and temperature 3, 6 & 9 hours after waking

Add and divide by 3 to get average daily temperature

Temperature:

Upon wakening, put in armpit for 10 minutes

97.8 – 98.2 is normal

Protocol Notes:

One-day compensator: Rise first day

Falls second day of same dose

Will reach 98.6 more easily by

raising 7.5 ug every day

Wean down dose every two days

Features of One day: Reach and maintain 98.6 at certain dose

Temp relapse as dose is

lowered

On next cycle, once compensation achieved, use patients lowered temperature as

a guide to increase the dose to the next 7.5 ug increment

At next highest increment, hold the does for five-seven days or longer on

subsequent cycles before weaning down.

If temp relapses, raise the dose

37.5 and higher causes T4 suppression and greater risk of side effects

From Internet Web group:

There is no Phase I involved, only Phase II. But most of the thyroid hormones

is actually disassembled and recycled. It's kind of complicated, but here's a

summary (Based on N. V. Bhagavan, Medical Biochemistry, Fourth Edition, 2002, p.

777):

As you probably know, there are two active thyroid hormones, T4 and T3, with T3

being much more active than T4. The metabolism of T4 involves about 20% of it

being directly processed by glucuronidation or sulfonation in the liver, and

going into the bile, or by deamination and decarboxylation to produce inactive

thyroacetic acid derivatives, and I don't know what happens to them. Another

30% is deiodinated to produce T3, and the remaining 50% is deiodinated to

produce rT3, which is inactive, and is completely deiodinated to produce

tyrosine, which can be recycled for various uses, and iodide.

Of the T3, about 20% is directly processed by glucuronidation or sulfonation and

goes out in the bile, or by deamination and decarboxylation to inactive

thyroacetic acid derivatives, whose fate

I don't know. The other 80% is completely deiodinated to form tyrosine, which

is recycled, and iodide.

The iodide is partly reabsorbed by the thyroid gland to be used to make more T4

and T3, and the rest goes to the urine via the kidneys.

Part of the conjugated T4 and T3 that goes out in the bile is hydrolyzed

(deconjugated) and recycled to the liver via the enterohepatic circulation, and

is put back into the blood stream to

be used again. The rest goes to the stools.

The average actual daily intake of iodine is about 500 micrograms. By far, most

of the iodine that is lost from the body goes out in the urine (about 488

micrograms per day). About 12 micrograms per day goes out in the stools. The

RDA for iodine has been set at 150

micrograms per day.

END OF NOTES

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

----------------------

Hi Kathy,

I believe I have hypothyroid. Yes, my medication is being compounded. No, I am

not on any adrenal support. In fact, I am embarrassed to admit that I really

on't know much about it or how to go about doing it. Is it something I can do

or myself? Or is it something I need to see a doctor for? Do you also take

ioidentical thyroid medication? DO you think it is possible that I need to

ncrease my dose? Start taking it every day? I just really don't know much.

Please educate me with any information you are willing to share.

Thank you,

Dawn

---------------------------------

Talk is cheap. Use Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates

starting at 1 & cent;/min.

[Guest guest]

Kathy

Yet another thyroid website that I find helpful is

_http://www.drrind.com/scorecardmatrix.asp_

(http://www.drrind.com/scorecardmatrix.asp)

Thanks for the excellent post on thyroid issues.

I've been contemplating an appointment with Brownstein for about a year as

he's only about 100 miles from me, just north of Detroit MI USA. I understand

the wait for an appointment is about six months. I am not sure if he

accepts insurance, however, and that's a huge issue for me.

I think Dr Lowe's book on thyroid/iodine/cancer is more detailed on thyroid

function than Brownstein's book on the subject.

I had posted my thryoid levels here a couple of times some months ago asking

for input and got no reponse.

mjh

Excellent websites on various aspects of thyroid:

http://www.wilsonssyndrome.com/

http://www.brodabarnes.org/

http://www.drbrownstein.com/index.shtml

http://drlowe.com/

Please not that I am not a doctor, just someone who's been sick for a while.

My nemesis is my entire hormonal and endocrine system. So, I have put a

lot of time and energy into trying to educate myself on the complicated

subject. Here is a cut and paste of my notes from various sources including

books

and even discussions from this group. Please note, this is very subject to

error with my brain fog, etc:

Kathy

mjh

" The Basil Book "

http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/