Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 I like your post. Nice concise summation. I'd just add or expand on a couple of things. I think hypercoagulation may indeed be a secondary effect to infection (as well as a genetic defect in some), but just like inflammation, it's capable of serious damage. The blood IS our immune system. If hypercoagulation is impeding the blood flow, then the IS is not effective and the drugs we take cannot reach the infection. Hypercoagulation should probably be moved to the first tier in importance, IMO. Inflammation is more and more frequently being linked to numerous serious diseases, such as cancer. It shows up in some form as a causative agent in every one of our symptoms. Inflammation needs to be on the first tier as a serious factor, right behind infections. Toxicity in our illness is much more than external toxins. The toxins are byproducts of the infection. It's the microbial toxins that muck up the blood and contribute to the inflammatory response and really make us feel lousy in general. They're probably tied with Inflammation as a major cause of our symptoms. So I'd place a lot more emphasis on Inflammation, toxicity, and hypercoagulation, . Cardiac issues need to be recognized as well. Our heart isn't pumping blood the way we need it to, our veins are gummed up due to toxins and scarring and other defense mechanisms waged by the IS (It may simply be infected). Personally, I'd put glutathione deficiency on the secondary list along with so many issues. Like HPA axis issues. I could be wrong of course, but until I see some kind of evidence that replenishment is showing some kind of results, I have to remain skeptical. I just don't see how glutathione replenishment is ever going to be enough to eradicate a focal infection alone. I really appreciate Rich's incredible work in this area, but over the years, we've focused on many things like thyroid deficiency, and adrenal insufficiency, even human growth hormone deficiency. We all become expert on the subject and jump on the bandwagon just as the theories fall by the way side for lack of results. Just a few more casualties of our illness. penny > > Dear list, > > I have been researching CFS for 5 years in the forms of books, journal articles, web articles, CFS lists and discussing CFS with every health professional I meet. I also had a mild form of CFS myself, treat patients with CFS/FM in my practice and did my honours degree thesis on CFS. I thought I would share my current opinion on the primary factors in CFS. I feel that majority of those with CFS/FM have an inter-relating mix of the 4 following issues which are the main underlying primary factors in CFS: > -Chronic infections > -Toxicity (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals, mold, etc.) > -Glutathione depletion > -Dysbiosis > > I feel that attempts to get well should focus largely on the above points. Of all the different practitioners I have read about over the years who treat CFS, plus in my own experience and those shared on various CFS lists I have been on over the years, I feel treating the above factors achieves the most solid and lasting benefits. > > The factors listed below I believe are (for the most part) more of a secondary nature. That's not say they are not important to consider in treatment, but I believe they as a whole produce less lasting and significant benefits, many of which are caused by the primary factors listed above: > -Nutrient imbalances > -Hormone & neurotransmitter imbalances > -Sleep problems > -Psychological issues > -Hyper-coagulation > -Food sensitivities > > This is a generalised model and there are certainly exceptions. Just to illustrate how to above model applies, for example if a person has a chronic lyme infection, mercury toxicity, glutathione deficiency and dysbiosis, then correcting magnesium deficiency would not be expected to make a huge difference. > > Regards, > > Blake Graham, B.Sc (Honours) > Integrative Nutritionist > Perth, Western Australia > http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Just wanna say thanks for your work Blake, often refer to your site alot. > Dear list, > > I have been researching CFS for 5 years in the forms of books, journal articles, web articles, CFS lists and discussing CFS with every health professional I meet. I also had a mild form of CFS myself, treat patients with CFS/FM in my practice and did my honours degree thesis on CFS. I thought I would share my current opinion on the primary factors in CFS. I feel that majority of those with CFS/FM have an inter-relating mix of the 4 following issues which are the main underlying primary factors in CFS: > -Chronic infections > -Toxicity (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals, mold, etc.) > -Glutathione depletion > -Dysbiosis > > I feel that attempts to get well should focus largely on the above points. Of all the different practitioners I have read about over the years who treat CFS, plus in my own experience and those shared on various CFS lists I have been on over the years, I feel treating the above factors achieves the most solid and lasting benefits. > > The factors listed below I believe are (for the most part) more of a secondary nature. That's not say they are not important to consider in treatment, but I believe they as a whole produce less lasting and significant benefits, many of which are caused by the primary factors listed above: > -Nutrient imbalances > -Hormone & neurotransmitter imbalances > -Sleep problems > -Psychological issues > -Hyper-coagulation > -Food sensitivities > > This is a generalised model and there are certainly exceptions. Just to illustrate how to above model applies, for example if a person has a chronic lyme infection, mercury toxicity, glutathione deficiency and dysbiosis, then correcting magnesium deficiency would not be expected to make a huge difference. > > Regards, > > Blake Graham, B.Sc (Honours) > Integrative Nutritionist > Perth, Western Australia > http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Hi Blake: Both your and Penny posts are excellent. Speaking from my own experience.. Inflammation is a term we use fairly loosely and often - but I think it's a complicated and underestimated condition that has severe rammifications to the body (read that as damage). there can be localized inflammation at one or more sites- then there's systemic inflammation- which is wide spread. I think the conditions can occur individually- or together and can range from moderate to severe. The cause can be a body gone awry (Ugh- the autoimmune theory) or from external or internal influences (ranging from injury to infection to other illness). And there are some that beleive inflammation can feed it self- like a feedback loop- and once it gets going it's hard to stop. And becuase of inflammation and the damage that it produces in the body is really why Drs. prescribe steroids. It may be just semantics here- when you call inflammation secondary to a root cause- and that may be technically correct- but what Penny's saying (and I agree with her) is that the RESULTing inflammation from what ever the cause becomes the PRIMARY damaging symptom - because it's like the domino effect---- downhill with damage. In some cases- especially long standing ones - Inflammation has to be brought under control concurrently with the therapy for any therapy to be effective (in my opinion of course) It's just harder to do when the problem is systemic. Barb > > > > Dear list, > > > > I have been researching CFS for 5 years in the forms of books, > journal articles, web articles, CFS lists and discussing CFS with > every health professional I meet. I also had a mild form of CFS > myself, treat patients with CFS/FM in my practice and did my honours > degree thesis on CFS. I thought I would share my current opinion on > the primary factors in CFS. I feel that majority of those with > CFS/FM have an inter-relating mix of the 4 following issues which > are the main underlying primary factors in CFS: > > -Chronic infections > > -Toxicity (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals, mold, etc.) > > -Glutathione depletion > > -Dysbiosis > > > > I feel that attempts to get well should focus largely on the above > points. Of all the different practitioners I have read about over > the years who treat CFS, plus in my own experience and those shared > on various CFS lists I have been on over the years, I feel treating > the above factors achieves the most solid and lasting benefits. > > > > The factors listed below I believe are (for the most part) more of > a secondary nature. That's not say they are not important to > consider in treatment, but I believe they as a whole produce less > lasting and significant benefits, many of which are caused by the > primary factors listed above: > > -Nutrient imbalances > > -Hormone & neurotransmitter imbalances > > -Sleep problems > > -Psychological issues > > -Hyper-coagulation > > -Food sensitivities > > > > This is a generalised model and there are certainly exceptions. > Just to illustrate how to above model applies, for example if a > person has a chronic lyme infection, mercury toxicity, glutathione > deficiency and dysbiosis, then correcting magnesium deficiency would > not be expected to make a huge difference. > > > > Regards, > > > > Blake Graham, B.Sc (Honours) > > Integrative Nutritionist > > Perth, Western Australia > > http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/ > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 HI Blake, I agree with you, that you've got the 4 main categories right. I should just add tho, that I am the person you describe--chronic lyme, mercury, low glutathione, and dysbiosis. In fact, lyme is known to sometimes cause inflammatory bowel disease. In any case, magnesium not only helps me (IV) but it is crucial to me. Just fyi . The question is also, what order should we address those four? That is probably individual. TO do all four at once is too much for many delicate beleagured sick folks. > > Dear list, > > I have been researching CFS for 5 years in the forms of books, journal articles, web articles, CFS lists and discussing CFS with every health professional I meet. I also had a mild form of CFS myself, treat patients with CFS/FM in my practice and did my honours degree thesis on CFS. I thought I would share my current opinion on the primary factors in CFS. I feel that majority of those with CFS/FM have an inter-relating mix of the 4 following issues which are the main underlying primary factors in CFS: > -Chronic infections > -Toxicity (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals, mold, etc.) > -Glutathione depletion > -Dysbiosis > > I feel that attempts to get well should focus largely on the above points. Of all the different practitioners I have read about over the years who treat CFS, plus in my own experience and those shared on various CFS lists I have been on over the years, I feel treating the above factors achieves the most solid and lasting benefits. > > The factors listed below I believe are (for the most part) more of a secondary nature. That's not say they are not important to consider in treatment, but I believe they as a whole produce less lasting and significant benefits, many of which are caused by the primary factors listed above: > -Nutrient imbalances > -Hormone & neurotransmitter imbalances > -Sleep problems > -Psychological issues > -Hyper-coagulation > -Food sensitivities > > This is a generalised model and there are certainly exceptions. Just to illustrate how to above model applies, for example if a person has a chronic lyme infection, mercury toxicity, glutathione deficiency and dysbiosis, then correcting magnesium deficiency would not be expected to make a huge difference. > > Regards, > > Blake Graham, B.Sc (Honours) > Integrative Nutritionist > Perth, Western Australia > http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 I agree totally Barb. I think it's one reason Aspirin is a wonder drug. It thins the blood, reduces inflammation and removes pain, all in one pill. And there are even some studies to support the idea that aspirin is bactericidal as well. It's possible that aspirin (and its cousins ibuprofen, advil, etc) is one of the safest drugs we could be taking, considering everything. I wish I could take it but my gut won't tolerate it. Otherwise, I'd definitely take aspirin. penny > > Hi Blake: > > Both your and Penny posts are excellent. > > Speaking from my own experience.. > Inflammation is a term we use fairly loosely and often - but I think > it's a complicated and underestimated condition that has severe > rammifications to the body (read that as damage). > > there can be localized inflammation at one or more sites- then > there's systemic inflammation- which is wide spread. I think the > conditions can occur individually- or together and can range from > moderate to severe. > > The cause can be a body gone awry (Ugh- the autoimmune theory) or > from external or internal influences (ranging from injury to > infection to other illness). > > And there are some that beleive inflammation can feed it self- like a > feedback loop- and once it gets going it's hard to stop. > > And becuase of inflammation and the damage that it produces in the > body is really why Drs. prescribe steroids. > > It may be just semantics here- when you call inflammation secondary > to a root cause- and that may be technically correct- but what > Penny's saying (and I agree with her) is that the RESULTing > inflammation from what ever the cause becomes the PRIMARY damaging > symptom - because it's like the domino effect---- downhill with > damage. > > In some cases- especially long standing ones - Inflammation has to be > brought under control concurrently with the therapy for any therapy > to be effective (in my opinion of course) > It's just harder to do when the problem is systemic. > > Barb > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Yeah, I understand where you're coming from. But agree with Barb that inflammation becomes a major causitive factor in our illness. Fortunately, I think science is rapidly catching on, as it's being strongly linked to many illnesses like cancer, heart disease, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, and a myriad of other " auto-immune " illnesses. I much prefer my odds with treating an overexcited inflammatory cycle, than a vague " auto-immune " response that's supposedly attacking my body for no good reason, or because it got " confused " . The Immune system is amazing in its ability to differentiate between self and other. It has the ability to recognize billions of invaders and go after them. It's just that the response can be as damaging, or more damaging than the bugs themselves. Here's a link to 's excellent study on cancer and inflammation, and the possibility that Angiotensin II blockers (ARBs) may be used to prevent cancer. infections/links/Medical_Res\ earch_001146785727/ We have a group that discusses infection and inflammation. Feel free to drop by anytime. infections/ penny > > > > Dear list, > > > > I have been researching CFS for 5 years in the forms of books, > journal articles, web articles, CFS lists and discussing CFS with > every health professional I meet. I also had a mild form of CFS > myself, treat patients with CFS/FM in my practice and did my honours > degree thesis on CFS. I thought I would share my current opinion on > the primary factors in CFS. I feel that majority of those with > CFS/FM have an inter-relating mix of the 4 following issues which > are the main underlying primary factors in CFS: > > -Chronic infections > > -Toxicity (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals, mold, etc.) > > -Glutathione depletion > > -Dysbiosis > > > > I feel that attempts to get well should focus largely on the above > points. Of all the different practitioners I have read about over > the years who treat CFS, plus in my own experience and those shared > on various CFS lists I have been on over the years, I feel treating > the above factors achieves the most solid and lasting benefits. > > > > The factors listed below I believe are (for the most part) more of > a secondary nature. That's not say they are not important to > consider in treatment, but I believe they as a whole produce less > lasting and significant benefits, many of which are caused by the > primary factors listed above: > > -Nutrient imbalances > > -Hormone & neurotransmitter imbalances > > -Sleep problems > > -Psychological issues > > -Hyper-coagulation > > -Food sensitivities > > > > This is a generalised model and there are certainly exceptions. > Just to illustrate how to above model applies, for example if a > person has a chronic lyme infection, mercury toxicity, glutathione > deficiency and dysbiosis, then correcting magnesium deficiency would > not be expected to make a huge difference. > > > > Regards, > > > > Blake Graham, B.Sc (Honours) > > Integrative Nutritionist > > Perth, Western Australia > > http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/ > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Hi I know that Aspirin is reputed to do some pretty good things, but like ibuprofen it is very harsh for the stomach.... and I am not sure, but I have an inkling that all these drugs you named, Penny, have a very negative effect on our ability to reach delta-wave or stage IV 'healing' sleep, which is important for everyone, not just for us. I guess any drug is always just another drug at the end of the day, intrinsically toxic and therefore....bound to have some undesirable side effects! so maybe we just cant win. all the best > > > > Hi Blake: > > > > Both your and Penny posts are excellent. > > > > Speaking from my own experience.. > > Inflammation is a term we use fairly loosely and often - but I > think > > it's a complicated and underestimated condition that has severe > > rammifications to the body (read that as damage). > > > > there can be localized inflammation at one or more sites- then > > there's systemic inflammation- which is wide spread. I think the > > conditions can occur individually- or together and can range from > > moderate to severe. > > > > The cause can be a body gone awry (Ugh- the autoimmune theory) or > > from external or internal influences (ranging from injury to > > infection to other illness). > > > > And there are some that beleive inflammation can feed it self- > like a > > feedback loop- and once it gets going it's hard to stop. > > > > And becuase of inflammation and the damage that it produces in the > > body is really why Drs. prescribe steroids. > > > > It may be just semantics here- when you call inflammation > secondary > > to a root cause- and that may be technically correct- but what > > Penny's saying (and I agree with her) is that the RESULTing > > inflammation from what ever the cause becomes the PRIMARY damaging > > symptom - because it's like the domino effect---- downhill with > > damage. > > > > In some cases- especially long standing ones - Inflammation has to > be > > brought under control concurrently with the therapy for any > therapy > > to be effective (in my opinion of course) > > It's just harder to do when the problem is systemic. > > > > Barb > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 inflammation around the brain is causing a lot of our sleep problems. When I reduced the inflammation with bebicar, I was finally able to sleep easily through the night for the first time in years. Yeah, aspirin can be rough, but the inflammation and toxins are probably even more damaging. penny > > > > > > Hi Blake: > > > > > > Both your and Penny posts are excellent. > > > > > > Speaking from my own experience.. > > > Inflammation is a term we use fairly loosely and often - but I > > think > > > it's a complicated and underestimated condition that has severe > > > rammifications to the body (read that as damage). > > > > > > there can be localized inflammation at one or more sites- then > > > there's systemic inflammation- which is wide spread. I think the > > > conditions can occur individually- or together and can range from > > > moderate to severe. > > > > > > The cause can be a body gone awry (Ugh- the autoimmune theory) > or > > > from external or internal influences (ranging from injury to > > > infection to other illness). > > > > > > And there are some that beleive inflammation can feed it self- > > like a > > > feedback loop- and once it gets going it's hard to stop. > > > > > > And becuase of inflammation and the damage that it produces in > the > > > body is really why Drs. prescribe steroids. > > > > > > It may be just semantics here- when you call inflammation > > secondary > > > to a root cause- and that may be technically correct- but what > > > Penny's saying (and I agree with her) is that the RESULTing > > > inflammation from what ever the cause becomes the PRIMARY > damaging > > > symptom - because it's like the domino effect---- downhill with > > > damage. > > > > > > In some cases- especially long standing ones - Inflammation has > to > > be > > > brought under control concurrently with the therapy for any > > therapy > > > to be effective (in my opinion of course) > > > It's just harder to do when the problem is systemic. > > > > > > Barb > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 I have found Ginkgo biloba and ginger helpful in reducing inflammation in the extremities, the head being one... From: penny Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 9:33 AM Subject: Re: Model for CFS primary factors. inflammation around the brain is causing a lot of our sleep problems. When I reduced the inflammation with bebicar, I was finally able to sleep easily through the night for the first time in years. Yeah, aspirin can be rough, but the inflammation and toxins are probably even more damaging. penny mjh " The Basil Book " http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Hi Penny, thanks for your comments. As CFS is such a complex illness, I think it would be niave of me to claim I know more than others who have been looking into CFS longer than I have. There are so many variables in CFS, but I guess what we are all really interested in is when you treat particular variable how much benefit do you really get and does it knock off any other factors. I don't think there is a perfect model for this in CFS. Maybe hypercoagulation should be higher on the list. Inflammation IMO is secondary to a large variety is issues (chronic infections, food sensitivities, nutrient imbalances, mold, etc.) HPA-axis issues are definitely secondary (to toxicity, oxidative stress, chronic infections hypercoagulation, etc.) IMO. Maybe my choice of the terms primary and secondary was not a good one, almost all the variables I listed relate to each other to some degree, and you could certainly add many more. Glutathione repletion will not get rid of every opportunistic infection a person has, but it is an important step which improves immune function and detoxification capacity, among other things. Anyway I think this issue is too complex for all of us to reach a general agreement, what I presented is my current opinion. Blake Re: Model for CFS primary factors. I like your post. Nice concise summation. I'd just add or expand on a couple of things. I think hypercoagulation may indeed be a secondary effect to infection (as well as a genetic defect in some), but just like inflammation, it's capable of serious damage. The blood IS our immune system. If hypercoagulation is impeding the blood flow, then the IS is not effective and the drugs we take cannot reach the infection. Hypercoagulation should probably be moved to the first tier in importance, IMO. Inflammation is more and more frequently being linked to numerous serious diseases, such as cancer. It shows up in some form as a causative agent in every one of our symptoms. Inflammation needs to be on the first tier as a serious factor, right behind infections. Toxicity in our illness is much more than external toxins. The toxins are byproducts of the infection. It's the microbial toxins that muck up the blood and contribute to the inflammatory response and really make us feel lousy in general. They're probably tied with Inflammation as a major cause of our symptoms. So I'd place a lot more emphasis on Inflammation, toxicity, and hypercoagulation, . Cardiac issues need to be recognized as well. Our heart isn't pumping blood the way we need it to, our veins are gummed up due to toxins and scarring and other defense mechanisms waged by the IS (It may simply be infected). Personally, I'd put glutathione deficiency on the secondary list along with so many issues. Like HPA axis issues. I could be wrong of course, but until I see some kind of evidence that replenishment is showing some kind of results, I have to remain skeptical. I just don't see how glutathione replenishment is ever going to be enough to eradicate a focal infection alone. I really appreciate Rich's incredible work in this area, but over the years, we've focused on many things like thyroid deficiency, and adrenal insufficiency, even human growth hormone deficiency. We all become expert on the subject and jump on the bandwagon just as the theories fall by the way side for lack of results. Just a few more casualties of our illness. penny > > Dear list, > > I have been researching CFS for 5 years in the forms of books, journal articles, web articles, CFS lists and discussing CFS with every health professional I meet. I also had a mild form of CFS myself, treat patients with CFS/FM in my practice and did my honours degree thesis on CFS. I thought I would share my current opinion on the primary factors in CFS. I feel that majority of those with CFS/FM have an inter-relating mix of the 4 following issues which are the main underlying primary factors in CFS: > -Chronic infections > -Toxicity (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals, mold, etc.) > -Glutathione depletion > -Dysbiosis > > I feel that attempts to get well should focus largely on the above points. Of all the different practitioners I have read about over the years who treat CFS, plus in my own experience and those shared on various CFS lists I have been on over the years, I feel treating the above factors achieves the most solid and lasting benefits. > > The factors listed below I believe are (for the most part) more of a secondary nature. That's not say they are not important to consider in treatment, but I believe they as a whole produce less lasting and significant benefits, many of which are caused by the primary factors listed above: > -Nutrient imbalances > -Hormone & neurotransmitter imbalances > -Sleep problems > -Psychological issues > -Hyper-coagulation > -Food sensitivities > > This is a generalised model and there are certainly exceptions. Just to illustrate how to above model applies, for example if a person has a chronic lyme infection, mercury toxicity, glutathione deficiency and dysbiosis, then correcting magnesium deficiency would not be expected to make a huge difference. > > Regards, > > Blake Graham, B.Sc (Honours) > Integrative Nutritionist > Perth, Western Australia > http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Hi Janet, Sounds like we have opposite hours. The best time for me is when my hubby is gone which is 6:30 AM to around 3:30 PM, Monday thru Friday. We can always use email if that is easier. Do you have your amalgams out? Lee Re: Model for CFS primary factors. inflammation around the brain is causing a lot of our sleep problems. When I reduced the inflammation with bebicar, I was finally able to sleep easily through the night for the first time in years. Yeah, aspirin can be rough, but the inflammation and toxins are probably even more damaging. penny > > > > > > Hi Blake: > > > > > > Both your and Penny posts are excellent. > > > > > > Speaking from my own experience.. > > > Inflammation is a term we use fairly loosely and often - but I > > think > > > it's a complicated and underestimated condition that has severe > > > rammifications to the body (read that as damage). > > > > > > there can be localized inflammation at one or more sites- then > > > there's systemic inflammation- which is wide spread. I think the > > > conditions can occur individually- or together and can range from > > > moderate to severe. > > > > > > The cause can be a body gone awry (Ugh- the autoimmune theory) > or > > > from external or internal influences (ranging from injury to > > > infection to other illness). > > > > > > And there are some that beleive inflammation can feed it self- > > like a > > > feedback loop- and once it gets going it's hard to stop. > > > > > > And becuase of inflammation and the damage that it produces in > the > > > body is really why Drs. prescribe steroids. > > > > > > It may be just semantics here- when you call inflammation > > secondary > > > to a root cause- and that may be technically correct- but what > > > Penny's saying (and I agree with her) is that the RESULTing > > > inflammation from what ever the cause becomes the PRIMARY > damaging > > > symptom - because it's like the domino effect---- downhill with > > > damage. > > > > > > In some cases- especially long standing ones - Inflammation has > to > > be > > > brought under control concurrently with the therapy for any > > therapy > > > to be effective (in my opinion of course) > > > It's just harder to do when the problem is systemic. > > > > > > Barb > > > > > > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 HI Lee, Yes I have my amalgams out. Thank God for that. I was getting ready to call you, its 6:20 and then I saw your note. My number is 760-471-1448. I would so like to connect by phone. Are the weekends out for you?? Janet Leona Gibson <tlukasiewicz@...> wrote: Hi Janet, Sounds like we have opposite hours. The best time for me is when my hubby is gone which is 6:30 AM to around 3:30 PM, Monday thru Friday. We can always use email if that is easier. Do you have your amalgams out? Lee Re: Model for CFS primary factors. inflammation around the brain is causing a lot of our sleep problems. When I reduced the inflammation with bebicar, I was finally able to sleep easily through the night for the first time in years. Yeah, aspirin can be rough, but the inflammation and toxins are probably even more damaging. penny > > > > > > Hi Blake: > > > > > > Both your and Penny posts are excellent. > > > > > > Speaking from my own experience.. > > > Inflammation is a term we use fairly loosely and often - but I > > think > > > it's a complicated and underestimated condition that has severe > > > rammifications to the body (read that as damage). > > > > > > there can be localized inflammation at one or more sites- then > > > there's systemic inflammation- which is wide spread. I think the > > > conditions can occur individually- or together and can range from > > > moderate to severe. > > > > > > The cause can be a body gone awry (Ugh- the autoimmune theory) > or > > > from external or internal influences (ranging from injury to > > > infection to other illness). > > > > > > And there are some that beleive inflammation can feed it self- > > like a > > > feedback loop- and once it gets going it's hard to stop. > > > > > > And becuase of inflammation and the damage that it produces in > the > > > body is really why Drs. prescribe steroids. > > > > > > It may be just semantics here- when you call inflammation > > secondary > > > to a root cause- and that may be technically correct- but what > > > Penny's saying (and I agree with her) is that the RESULTing > > > inflammation from what ever the cause becomes the PRIMARY > damaging > > > symptom - because it's like the domino effect---- downhill with > > > damage. > > > > > > In some cases- especially long standing ones - Inflammation has > to > > be > > > brought under control concurrently with the therapy for any > > therapy > > > to be effective (in my opinion of course) > > > It's just harder to do when the problem is systemic. > > > > > > Barb > > > > > > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Blake, I love your Occam-type treatment simplification. But why infections first, before toxicity? I would think it would be: Dysbiosis Glutathione Toxicity Infections I would order this way because some toxins block detox enzymes and you need a fully functional detox system to tolerate the die-off / herx reaction from the nastier bugs. Also, the toxins will create a more acidic environment favorable to the chronic infections. So it would seem to me that it is better to tackle infections last, after their terrain has been made as uncomfortable as possible. Obviously we are talking about Lyme, mycoplasma and Herpes-class viral infections for the most part, and I believe we need EVERYTHING working properly to have a chance at defeating them. Am I missing something? --Kurt Re: Re: Model for CFS primary factors. sorry I don't have time to reply to evryones postss, I will jut reply to a few. I'm not surprised at your response to magnesium, I was just pointing out that nutrient balancing usually is only a small (but important) part of CFS. I say that having seen many people with CFS try high potency and quality multi vitamains/minerals with minimal results at best. My current preference for which order these 4 factors should be addres is: -Dysbiosis -Glutathione -Chronic infections and toxicity Re: Model for CFS primary factors. HI Blake, I agree with you, that you've got the 4 main categories right. I should just add tho, that I am the person you describe--chronic lyme, mercury, low glutathione, and dysbiosis. In fact, lyme is known to sometimes cause inflammatory bowel disease. In any case, magnesium not only helps me (IV) but it is crucial to me. Just fyi . The question is also, what order should we address those four? That is probably individual. TO do all four at once is too much for many delicate beleagured sick folks. > > Dear list, > > I have been researching CFS for 5 years in the forms of books, journal articles, web articles, CFS lists and discussing CFS with every health professional I meet. I also had a mild form of CFS myself, treat patients with CFS/FM in my practice and did my honours degree thesis on CFS. I thought I would share my current opinion on the primary factors in CFS. I feel that majority of those with CFS/FM have an inter-relating mix of the 4 following issues which are the main underlying primary factors in CFS: > -Chronic infections > -Toxicity (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals, mold, etc.) > -Glutathione depletion > -Dysbiosis > > I feel that attempts to get well should focus largely on the above points. Of all the different practitioners I have read about over the years who treat CFS, plus in my own experience and those shared on various CFS lists I have been on over the years, I feel treating the above factors achieves the most solid and lasting benefits. > > The factors listed below I believe are (for the most part) more of a secondary nature. That's not say they are not important to consider in treatment, but I believe they as a whole produce less lasting and significant benefits, many of which are caused by the primary factors listed above: > -Nutrient imbalances > -Hormone & neurotransmitter imbalances > -Sleep problems > -Psychological issues > -Hyper-coagulation > -Food sensitivities > > This is a generalised model and there are certainly exceptions. Just to illustrate how to above model applies, for example if a person has a chronic lyme infection, mercury toxicity, glutathione deficiency and dysbiosis, then correcting magnesium deficiency would not be expected to make a huge difference. > > Regards, > > Blake Graham, B.Sc (Honours) > Integrative Nutritionist > Perth, Western Australia > http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Janet I made and used officinalis tincture to bring vvery high titres of several Herpes family viruses under control I could not afford the prescribed pharmaceutical. I have written about officinalis here extensively in thhe past. mjh From: " Janet s " jgstev716@... Date: Wed May 10, 2006 11:13pm(PDT) Subject: Re: Model for CFS primary factors. So Blake/Kurt, How does one go about killing infections??? I know anitbotics for bacteria, but what about viral??? Thank you for your help, Janet in San Diego mjh " The Basil Book " http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 So Blake/Kurt, How does one go about killing infections??? I know anitbotics for bacteria, but what about viral??? Thank you for your help, Janet in San Diego Blake Graham <blanket@...> wrote: Hi Kurt, My suggestion was toxicity and infections at the same time. The cycle goes both ways with toxicity and infections. Infections also inhibit detoxification. For example Dr. Yasko and Dr. Gordon have showed that in Autistic kids, when you treat the measles and other infections, chelation suddenly starts working much more effectively. Many of these kids previously had negative post-DMSA challeng tests, only to be pouring our mercury after infection treatment. Toxicity also heavily damages the immune system. As all on this list would agree the task of treating toxicity and chronic infections is a long term ongoing process. I can see you could argue both ways, at present I feel both should be tackled at the same time. Blake Re: Model for CFS primary factors. HI Blake, I agree with you, that you've got the 4 main categories right. I should just add tho, that I am the person you describe--chronic lyme, mercury, low glutathione, and dysbiosis. In fact, lyme is known to sometimes cause inflammatory bowel disease. In any case, magnesium not only helps me (IV) but it is crucial to me. Just fyi . The question is also, what order should we address those four? That is probably individual. TO do all four at once is too much for many delicate beleagured sick folks. > > Dear list, > > I have been researching CFS for 5 years in the forms of books, journal articles, web articles, CFS lists and discussing CFS with every health professional I meet. I also had a mild form of CFS myself, treat patients with CFS/FM in my practice and did my honours degree thesis on CFS. I thought I would share my current opinion on the primary factors in CFS. I feel that majority of those with CFS/FM have an inter-relating mix of the 4 following issues which are the main underlying primary factors in CFS: > -Chronic infections > -Toxicity (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals, mold, etc.) > -Glutathione depletion > -Dysbiosis > > I feel that attempts to get well should focus largely on the above points. Of all the different practitioners I have read about over the years who treat CFS, plus in my own experience and those shared on various CFS lists I have been on over the years, I feel treating the above factors achieves the most solid and lasting benefits. > > The factors listed below I believe are (for the most part) more of a secondary nature. That's not say they are not important to consider in treatment, but I believe they as a whole produce less lasting and significant benefits, many of which are caused by the primary factors listed above: > -Nutrient imbalances > -Hormone & neurotransmitter imbalances > -Sleep problems > -Psychological issues > -Hyper-coagulation > -Food sensitivities > > This is a generalised model and there are certainly exceptions. Just to illustrate how to above model applies, for example if a person has a chronic lyme infection, mercury toxicity, glutathione deficiency and dysbiosis, then correcting magnesium deficiency would not be expected to make a huge difference. > > Regards, > > Blake Graham, B.Sc (Honours) > Integrative Nutritionist > Perth, Western Australia > http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 Interestingly, celiac patients often have auto-antibodies and these go away when they go off gluten. So the underlying cause of the inflammation needs to be addressed, although I think natural means of helping the body with inflammation can be useful--but not suppressing symptoms in harmful ways (to me that means drugs). Also, I understand your point about supplements. I don't take many supplements anyway. I need IV or IM magnesium. I do take potassium, and I take echinacea and cranberry capsules. Occasionally mycelized Viamin A when I feel a craving. Mostly I try to eat well and I make green juices a few times a week. I try to get natural sources of nutrients. There is an international society of probiotics by the way. I just ordered their book, its rather expensive, it's a European book with papers by scientists on all aspects of probiotics, including quieting gut inflammation. > > > > > > Dear list, > > > > > > I have been researching CFS for 5 years in the forms of books, > > journal articles, web articles, CFS lists and discussing CFS with > > every health professional I meet. I also had a mild form of CFS > > myself, treat patients with CFS/FM in my practice and did my honours > > degree thesis on CFS. I thought I would share my current opinion on > > the primary factors in CFS. I feel that majority of those with > > CFS/FM have an inter-relating mix of the 4 following issues which > > are the main underlying primary factors in CFS: > > > -Chronic infections > > > -Toxicity (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals, mold, etc.) > > > -Glutathione depletion > > > -Dysbiosis > > > > > > I feel that attempts to get well should focus largely on the above > > points. Of all the different practitioners I have read about over > > the years who treat CFS, plus in my own experience and those shared > > on various CFS lists I have been on over the years, I feel treating > > the above factors achieves the most solid and lasting benefits. > > > > > > The factors listed below I believe are (for the most part) more of > > a secondary nature. That's not say they are not important to > > consider in treatment, but I believe they as a whole produce less > > lasting and significant benefits, many of which are caused by the > > primary factors listed above: > > > -Nutrient imbalances > > > -Hormone & neurotransmitter imbalances > > > -Sleep problems > > > -Psychological issues > > > -Hyper-coagulation > > > -Food sensitivities > > > > > > This is a generalised model and there are certainly exceptions. > > Just to illustrate how to above model applies, for example if a > > person has a chronic lyme infection, mercury toxicity, glutathione > > deficiency and dysbiosis, then correcting magnesium deficiency would > > not be expected to make a huge difference. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Blake Graham, B.Sc (Honours) > > > Integrative Nutritionist > > > Perth, Western Australia > > > http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 Yes, Janet, the common name for officinalis is lemon balm. It is a hardy, herbaceous perennial that is easy to grow. I would encourage you to try officinalis tincture. BUT it must state on the label that it is made with the fresh herb. Lemon balm's antiviral properties are easily lost... GOod luck to yu From: " Janet s " jgstev716@... Date: Thu May 11, 2006 10:20am(PDT) Subject: Re: Model for CFS primary factors. HI, Ok I think the herb you are talking about also goes by Lemon Balm. I have also used Neem in the past. From what I understand they use that against AIDS with a fair amount of success. I have had MAJOR trouble with viruses!!! Nothing has worked against them. Janet in San Diego mjh " The Basil Book " http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 Penny, Have you tried taking nattokinase? Maybe you are salicylate intolerant if you cana't tolerate aspirin or maybe it's just a gut issue? Blake Re: Model for CFS primary factors. I agree totally Barb. I think it's one reason Aspirin is a wonder drug. It thins the blood, reduces inflammation and removes pain, all in one pill. And there are even some studies to support the idea that aspirin is bactericidal as well. It's possible that aspirin (and its cousins ibuprofen, advil, etc) is one of the safest drugs we could be taking, considering everything. I wish I could take it but my gut won't tolerate it. Otherwise, I'd definitely take aspirin. penny > > Hi Blake: > > Both your and Penny posts are excellent. > > Speaking from my own experience.. > Inflammation is a term we use fairly loosely and often - but I think > it's a complicated and underestimated condition that has severe > rammifications to the body (read that as damage). > > there can be localized inflammation at one or more sites- then > there's systemic inflammation- which is wide spread. I think the > conditions can occur individually- or together and can range from > moderate to severe. > > The cause can be a body gone awry (Ugh- the autoimmune theory) or > from external or internal influences (ranging from injury to > infection to other illness). > > And there are some that beleive inflammation can feed it self- like a > feedback loop- and once it gets going it's hard to stop. > > And becuase of inflammation and the damage that it produces in the > body is really why Drs. prescribe steroids. > > It may be just semantics here- when you call inflammation secondary > to a root cause- and that may be technically correct- but what > Penny's saying (and I agree with her) is that the RESULTing > inflammation from what ever the cause becomes the PRIMARY damaging > symptom - because it's like the domino effect---- downhill with > damage. > > In some cases- especially long standing ones - Inflammation has to be > brought under control concurrently with the therapy for any therapy > to be effective (in my opinion of course) > It's just harder to do when the problem is systemic. > > Barb > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 Penny Aspirin was synthesized from white willow bark. You might try some of that and see if the original, natural, full herb form is helpful for you without the painful side effects. mjh From: " penny " pennyhoule@... Date: Thu May 11, 2006 1:12pm(PDT) Subject: Re: Model for CFS primary factors. yes, took a lot of natto. And the aspirin is strictly a gut issue. I used to take it, but it burns really badly now for days after one pill. penny mjh " The Basil Book " http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 HI, Ok I think the herb you are talking about also goes by Lemon Balm. I have also used Neem in the past. From what I understand they use that against AIDS with a fair amount of success. I have had MAJOR trouble with viruses!!! Nothing has worked against them. Janet in San Diego foxhillers@... wrote: Janet I made and used officinalis tincture to bring vvery high titres of several Herpes family viruses under control I could not afford the prescribed pharmaceutical. I have written about officinalis here extensively in thhe past. mjh From: " Janet s " jgstev716@... Date: Wed May 10, 2006 11:13pm(PDT) Subject: Re: Model for CFS primary factors. So Blake/Kurt, How does one go about killing infections??? I know anitbotics for bacteria, but what about viral??? Thank you for your help, Janet in San Diego mjh " The Basil Book " http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 Janet, I avoid drugs, due to my typical CFS liver issues. What has worked for me against bacterial type infections is colloid silver (Argentyn23 or CVM3 if you have the funds) and oil of oregano (Oreganol is very good). For the viral infections olive leaf extract and GSE seem very helpful. I also use Bee Propolis when I get a virus or bug that is 'going around' and it seems to make a big difference. And H2O2 in the ears can also help, some people think it gets into the blood that way. There are many choices, there are some of the best I have found. Also, getting the immune system functioning again helps, and my immune system has re-started on salt/c. I also take megadoses of vit C separately and that helps. Some people use colostrum, Transfer Factor, Egg cell immune powders, and other immune boosters. --Kurt Re: Re: Model for CFS primary factors. So Blake/Kurt, How does one go about killing infections??? I know anitbotics for bacteria, but what about viral??? Thank you for your help, Janet in San Diego Blake Graham <blanket@...> wrote: Hi Kurt, My suggestion was toxicity and infections at the same time. The cycle goes both ways with toxicity and infections. Infections also inhibit detoxification. For example Dr. Yasko and Dr. Gordon have showed that in Autistic kids, when you treat the measles and other infections, chelation suddenly starts working much more effectively. Many of these kids previously had negative post-DMSA challeng tests, only to be pouring our mercury after infection treatment. Toxicity also heavily damages the immune system. As all on this list would agree the task of treating toxicity and chronic infections is a long term ongoing process. I can see you could argue both ways, at present I feel both should be tackled at the same time. Blake Re: Model for CFS primary factors. HI Blake, I agree with you, that you've got the 4 main categories right. I should just add tho, that I am the person you describe--chronic lyme, mercury, low glutathione, and dysbiosis. In fact, lyme is known to sometimes cause inflammatory bowel disease. In any case, magnesium not only helps me (IV) but it is crucial to me. Just fyi . The question is also, what order should we address those four? That is probably individual. TO do all four at once is too much for many delicate beleagured sick folks. > > Dear list, > > I have been researching CFS for 5 years in the forms of books, journal articles, web articles, CFS lists and discussing CFS with every health professional I meet. I also had a mild form of CFS myself, treat patients with CFS/FM in my practice and did my honours degree thesis on CFS. I thought I would share my current opinion on the primary factors in CFS. I feel that majority of those with CFS/FM have an inter-relating mix of the 4 following issues which are the main underlying primary factors in CFS: > -Chronic infections > -Toxicity (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals, mold, etc.) > -Glutathione depletion > -Dysbiosis > > I feel that attempts to get well should focus largely on the above points. Of all the different practitioners I have read about over the years who treat CFS, plus in my own experience and those shared on various CFS lists I have been on over the years, I feel treating the above factors achieves the most solid and lasting benefits. > > The factors listed below I believe are (for the most part) more of a secondary nature. That's not say they are not important to consider in treatment, but I believe they as a whole produce less lasting and significant benefits, many of which are caused by the primary factors listed above: > -Nutrient imbalances > -Hormone & neurotransmitter imbalances > -Sleep problems > -Psychological issues > -Hyper-coagulation > -Food sensitivities > > This is a generalised model and there are certainly exceptions. Just to illustrate how to above model applies, for example if a person has a chronic lyme infection, mercury toxicity, glutathione deficiency and dysbiosis, then correcting magnesium deficiency would not be expected to make a huge difference. > > Regards, > > Blake Graham, B.Sc (Honours) > Integrative Nutritionist > Perth, Western Australia > http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 Blake, This makes sense, thanks. --Kurt Re: Re: Model for CFS primary factors. Hi Kurt, My suggestion was toxicity and infections at the same time. The cycle goes both ways with toxicity and infections. Infections also inhibit detoxification. For example Dr. Yasko and Dr. Gordon have showed that in Autistic kids, when you treat the measles and other infections, chelation suddenly starts working much more effectively. Many of these kids previously had negative post-DMSA challeng tests, only to be pouring our mercury after infection treatment. Toxicity also heavily damages the immune system. As all on this list would agree the task of treating toxicity and chronic infections is a long term ongoing process. I can see you could argue both ways, at present I feel both should be tackled at the same time. Blake Re: Model for CFS primary factors. HI Blake, I agree with you, that you've got the 4 main categories right. I should just add tho, that I am the person you describe--chronic lyme, mercury, low glutathione, and dysbiosis. In fact, lyme is known to sometimes cause inflammatory bowel disease. In any case, magnesium not only helps me (IV) but it is crucial to me. Just fyi . The question is also, what order should we address those four? That is probably individual. TO do all four at once is too much for many delicate beleagured sick folks. > > Dear list, > > I have been researching CFS for 5 years in the forms of books, journal articles, web articles, CFS lists and discussing CFS with every health professional I meet. I also had a mild form of CFS myself, treat patients with CFS/FM in my practice and did my honours degree thesis on CFS. I thought I would share my current opinion on the primary factors in CFS. I feel that majority of those with CFS/FM have an inter-relating mix of the 4 following issues which are the main underlying primary factors in CFS: > -Chronic infections > -Toxicity (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals, mold, etc.) > -Glutathione depletion > -Dysbiosis > > I feel that attempts to get well should focus largely on the above points. Of all the different practitioners I have read about over the years who treat CFS, plus in my own experience and those shared on various CFS lists I have been on over the years, I feel treating the above factors achieves the most solid and lasting benefits. > > The factors listed below I believe are (for the most part) more of a secondary nature. That's not say they are not important to consider in treatment, but I believe they as a whole produce less lasting and significant benefits, many of which are caused by the primary factors listed above: > -Nutrient imbalances > -Hormone & neurotransmitter imbalances > -Sleep problems > -Psychological issues > -Hyper-coagulation > -Food sensitivities > > This is a generalised model and there are certainly exceptions. Just to illustrate how to above model applies, for example if a person has a chronic lyme infection, mercury toxicity, glutathione deficiency and dysbiosis, then correcting magnesium deficiency would not be expected to make a huge difference. > > Regards, > > Blake Graham, B.Sc (Honours) > Integrative Nutritionist > Perth, Western Australia > http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 yes, took a lot of natto. And the aspirin is strictly a gut issue. I used to take it, but it burns really badly now for days after one pill. penny > > > > Hi Blake: > > > > Both your and Penny posts are excellent. > > > > Speaking from my own experience.. > > Inflammation is a term we use fairly loosely and often - but I > think > > it's a complicated and underestimated condition that has severe > > rammifications to the body (read that as damage). > > > > there can be localized inflammation at one or more sites- then > > there's systemic inflammation- which is wide spread. I think the > > conditions can occur individually- or together and can range from > > moderate to severe. > > > > The cause can be a body gone awry (Ugh- the autoimmune theory) or > > from external or internal influences (ranging from injury to > > infection to other illness). > > > > And there are some that beleive inflammation can feed it self- > like a > > feedback loop- and once it gets going it's hard to stop. > > > > And becuase of inflammation and the damage that it produces in the > > body is really why Drs. prescribe steroids. > > > > It may be just semantics here- when you call inflammation > secondary > > to a root cause- and that may be technically correct- but what > > Penny's saying (and I agree with her) is that the RESULTing > > inflammation from what ever the cause becomes the PRIMARY damaging > > symptom - because it's like the domino effect---- downhill with > > damage. > > > > In some cases- especially long standing ones - Inflammation has to > be > > brought under control concurrently with the therapy for any > therapy > > to be effective (in my opinion of course) > > It's just harder to do when the problem is systemic. > > > > Barb > > > > > > > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 disagree 100%. Inflammation is a huge factor in so many illnesses. It's the inflammation that kills you in SARS, menningitis, etc., not the virus. We have to keep the inflammation at least controlled enough to let the treatments have a chance to work. The question should not be why have antibodies gone wild, or why has our immune system turned against us? It should be, what are these antibodies attacking & what is the immune system really responding to? Nobody's looking at the common organisms that are actually deadly when they gain access to parts of our body that the IS cannot easily access. We're dying of peripheral damage. Friendly fire is killing us. penny > > Hi Penny, > > I just wanted to point out that auto-immunity is present to some degree in many of those with CFS. For example antinuclear antibodies are frequently positive. Anti-thyroid antibodies also. These are just a few. > > While inflammation is imporant I feel focusing on it (with anti- inflammatories) is not the right path to take. I feel we should be focusing more on the primary issues. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 Yeah. You're missing numerous staphs, strep, p. acnes, pseudomonas, actinomyces, even c. pneumonia. It's like everybody's looking for a needle in a haystack, when the haystack's the problem. These are the BACTERIAL bugs AND the bacterial TOXINS they produce that you need to worry about, because they're everywhere, and we're giving them all kinds of access to dangerous places in our bodies. penny > > Blake, > I love your Occam-type treatment simplification. But why infections > first, before toxicity? I would think it would be: > > Dysbiosis > Glutathione > Toxicity > Infections > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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