Re: Model for CFS primary factors.

May 11, 2006

Forget about environmental toxins. The bacterial toxins are a much

bigger problem.

penny

> >

> > Dear list,

> >

> > I have been researching CFS for 5 years in the forms of

books,

> journal articles, web articles, CFS lists and discussing CFS

with

> every health professional I meet. I also had a mild form of CFS

> myself, treat patients with CFS/FM in my practice and did my

honours

> degree thesis on CFS. I thought I would share my current

opinion on

> the primary factors in CFS. I feel that majority of those with

CFS/FM

> have an inter-relating mix of the 4 following issues which are

the

> main underlying primary factors in CFS:

> > -Chronic infections

> > -Toxicity (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals, mold, etc.)

> > -Glutathione depletion

> > -Dysbiosis

> >

> > I feel that attempts to get well should focus largely on the

above

> points. Of all the different practitioners I have read about

over the

> years who treat CFS, plus in my own experience and those

shared on

> various CFS lists I have been on over the years, I feel

treating the

> above factors achieves the most solid and lasting benefits.

> >

> > The factors listed below I believe are (for the most part)

more of a

> secondary nature. That's not say they are not important to

consider in

> treatment, but I believe they as a whole produce less lasting

and

> significant benefits, many of which are caused by the primary

factors

> listed above:

> > -Nutrient imbalances

> > -Hormone & neurotransmitter imbalances

> > -Sleep problems

> > -Psychological issues

> > -Hyper-coagulation

> > -Food sensitivities

> >

> > This is a generalised model and there are certainly

exceptions. Just

> to illustrate how to above model applies, for example if a

person has

> a chronic lyme infection, mercury toxicity, glutathione

deficiency and

> dysbiosis, then correcting magnesium deficiency would not be

expected

> to make a huge difference.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Blake Graham, B.Sc (Honours)

> > Integrative Nutritionist

> > Perth, Western Australia

> > http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/

> >

May 11, 2006

Hi Kurt,

My suggestion was toxicity and infections at the same time.

The cycle goes both ways with toxicity and infections. Infections also inhibit

detoxification. For example Dr. Yasko and Dr. Gordon have showed that in

Autistic kids, when you treat the measles and other infections, chelation

suddenly starts working much more effectively. Many of these kids previously had

negative post-DMSA challeng tests, only to be pouring our mercury after

infection treatment. Toxicity also heavily damages the immune system. As all on

this list would agree the task of treating toxicity and chronic infections is a

long term ongoing process. I can see you could argue both ways, at present I

feel both should be tackled at the same time.

Blake

Re: Model for CFS primary factors.

HI Blake, I agree with you, that you've got the 4 main categories

right.

I should just add tho, that I am the person you describe--chronic

lyme, mercury, low glutathione, and dysbiosis. In fact, lyme is known

to sometimes cause inflammatory bowel disease. In any case, magnesium

not only helps me (IV) but it is crucial to me.

Just fyi .

The question is also, what order should we address those four? That is

probably individual. TO do all four at once is too much for many

delicate beleagured sick folks.

>

> Dear list,

>

> I have been researching CFS for 5 years in the forms of books,

journal articles, web articles, CFS lists and discussing CFS with

every health professional I meet. I also had a mild form of CFS

myself, treat patients with CFS/FM in my practice and did my honours

degree thesis on CFS. I thought I would share my current opinion on

the primary factors in CFS. I feel that majority of those with CFS/FM

have an inter-relating mix of the 4 following issues which are the

main underlying primary factors in CFS:

> -Chronic infections

> -Toxicity (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals, mold, etc.)

> -Glutathione depletion

> -Dysbiosis

>

> I feel that attempts to get well should focus largely on the above

points. Of all the different practitioners I have read about over the

years who treat CFS, plus in my own experience and those shared on

various CFS lists I have been on over the years, I feel treating the

above factors achieves the most solid and lasting benefits.

>

> The factors listed below I believe are (for the most part) more of a

secondary nature. That's not say they are not important to consider in

treatment, but I believe they as a whole produce less lasting and

significant benefits, many of which are caused by the primary factors

listed above:

> -Nutrient imbalances

> -Hormone & neurotransmitter imbalances

> -Sleep problems

> -Psychological issues

> -Hyper-coagulation

> -Food sensitivities

>

> This is a generalised model and there are certainly exceptions. Just

to illustrate how to above model applies, for example if a person has

a chronic lyme infection, mercury toxicity, glutathione deficiency and

dysbiosis, then correcting magnesium deficiency would not be expected

to make a huge difference.

>

> Regards,

>

> Blake Graham, B.Sc (Honours)

> Integrative Nutritionist

> Perth, Western Australia

> http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/

>

May 11, 2006

Aspirin was synthesized from white willow bark. You might try some

of that and see if the original, natural, full herb form is helpful

for you without the painful side effects.

> mjh

That's a good idea. I also learned recently that guaifenisin is made

from a tree bark and also has analgesic and blood thinning properties.

It also thins mucous, which could be a factor for people dealing with

sinus infections. I've found it has a mild analgesic effect. Could

explain why some people get some relief from guai. But it's not a

cure. Just an adjunctive therapy. The funny thing is, guai in some

form has been used by aboriginal peoples for maybe thousands of years

for it's healing properties.

May 11, 2006

Hi Janet,

My thoughts on this are as follows:

First correct nutrient imabalances (esp vitamin D), optimise diet, optimise gut

flora, increase glutathione, etc. all factors which relate strongly to immune

function.

Secondly my preference is strong immune modulators, combinations of high dose

transfer factor & medicinal mushrooms complexes (Cordyceps, Reiishi, Shiitake),

herbal anti-microbials, etc. Possibly combine this with anticoagulanats like

nattokinase, bromelain, heparin, etc. to break down coagulation products which

protect infections.

Blake

Re: Model for CFS primary factors.

HI Blake, I agree with you, that you've got the 4 main categories

right.

I should just add tho, that I am the person you describe--chronic

lyme, mercury, low glutathione, and dysbiosis. In fact, lyme is known

to sometimes cause inflammatory bowel disease. In any case, magnesium

not only helps me (IV) but it is crucial to me.

Just fyi .

The question is also, what order should we address those four? That is

probably individual. TO do all four at once is too much for many

delicate beleagured sick folks.

>

> Dear list,

>

> I have been researching CFS for 5 years in the forms of books,

journal articles, web articles, CFS lists and discussing CFS with

every health professional I meet. I also had a mild form of CFS

myself, treat patients with CFS/FM in my practice and did my honours

degree thesis on CFS. I thought I would share my current opinion on

the primary factors in CFS. I feel that majority of those with CFS/FM

have an inter-relating mix of the 4 following issues which are the

main underlying primary factors in CFS:

> -Chronic infections

> -Toxicity (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals, mold, etc.)

> -Glutathione depletion

> -Dysbiosis

>

> I feel that attempts to get well should focus largely on the above

points. Of all the different practitioners I have read about over the

years who treat CFS, plus in my own experience and those shared on

various CFS lists I have been on over the years, I feel treating the

above factors achieves the most solid and lasting benefits.

>

> The factors listed below I believe are (for the most part) more of a

secondary nature. That's not say they are not important to consider in

treatment, but I believe they as a whole produce less lasting and

significant benefits, many of which are caused by the primary factors

listed above:

> -Nutrient imbalances

> -Hormone & neurotransmitter imbalances

> -Sleep problems

> -Psychological issues

> -Hyper-coagulation

> -Food sensitivities

>

> This is a generalised model and there are certainly exceptions. Just

to illustrate how to above model applies, for example if a person has

a chronic lyme infection, mercury toxicity, glutathione deficiency and

dysbiosis, then correcting magnesium deficiency would not be expected

to make a huge difference.

>

> Regards,

>

> Blake Graham, B.Sc (Honours)

> Integrative Nutritionist

> Perth, Western Australia

> http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/

>

May 12, 2006

Blake, I'm sorry but first show me how you can kill TB without

mainstream medicine and I might get interested. This is the kind of

thing we're dealing with here. Our bugs are just slower to kill than

TB, but just as damaging in the long run.

Inflammation is designed to kill the infection. But it can kill us

too. For example, an inflammatory response to an invader commonly

results in encephalitis. It can also result in cancer. You can try

to figure out what caused the inflammation that caused the cancer if

you want, but in the meantime the cancer will kill you. So you've

got to deal with the stopping the most deadly thing first.

Of course, fundamentally, we have to stop the source of the

inflammation (infection), but we also have to calm the inflammation

down, so that we can access the source. It's a catch 22.

It's like an aids patient with pneumonia. If you don't treat the

pneumonia, he's going to die, aids or no aids. When inflammation is

raging, it blocks us from the source of the problem.

Infection produces toxins and inflammation. Both designed to kill

bacteria. But unfortunately, both can kill us too or make us very

sick. Of course we need to support the immune system however we can,

eg. blood thinning, nutritional replenishment, etc. but once you're

as infected as we are, serious measures are called for.

It's the lack of serious measures and widespread ignorance that are

keeping us sick. Ignorance in the sense that docs and general folk

are ignoring the real issues. Why are we all happy to keep putzing

around with herbs and vitamins when they don't have a chance against

the organisms we're really dealing with?

Alternative medicine companies are making a fortune off of us, and

mainstream medicine is happy to ignore us, because actually dealing

with and treating our problem is going to cost billions of dollars.

We have to stop messing around and start demanding that mainstream

medicine take us seriously. That means back to the basics. Plain old

lab tests and cultures. Start looking at the everyday toxic bugs,

not exotic " stealth " bugs.

I have a vision that I'd like to implement. To create a non profit

organization that hires legitimate researchers to culture organisms

from the chronically ill and publish the results. We can also test

the bugs' sensitivities, so they can be treated effectively. When

people finally see those results for what they are, how many of us

are infected with " normal " bugs, they'll no longer be able to ignore

us. When the problem is finally recognized for how big it really is,

they'll have no choice but to start focusing on better treatments.

penny

> >

> > Hi Penny,

> >

> > I just wanted to point out that auto-immunity is present to

some

> degree in many of those with CFS. For example antinuclear

antibodies

> are frequently positive. Anti-thyroid antibodies also. These are

> just a few.

> >

> > While inflammation is imporant I feel focusing on it (with

anti-

> inflammatories) is not the right path to take. I feel we should

be

> focusing more on the primary issues.

> >

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested

in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

May 12, 2006

>

> Blake, I'm sorry but first show me how you can kill TB without

> mainstream medicine and I might get interested. This is the kind of

> thing we're dealing with here. Our bugs are just slower to kill than

> TB, but just as damaging in the long run.

>

Not to belabor the point, but sanitoriums used to work for some when

tuberculosis was epidemic, and Gerson's diet cured ALbert Schweitzer's

wife of t.b.

May 12, 2006

HI Kurt,

What is CVM3??? What is H202???

Thank you for your help,

Janet

in San Deigo

" Kurt R. " <kurt@...> wrote:

Janet,

I avoid drugs, due to my typical CFS liver issues. What has worked for

me against bacterial type infections is colloid silver (Argentyn23 or

CVM3 if you have the funds) and oil of oregano (Oreganol is very good).

For the viral infections olive leaf extract and GSE seem very helpful.

I also use Bee Propolis when I get a virus or bug that is 'going around'

and it seems to make a big difference. And H2O2 in the ears can also

help, some people think it gets into the blood that way. There are many

choices, there are some of the best I have found.

Also, getting the immune system functioning again helps, and my immune

system has re-started on salt/c. I also take megadoses of vit C

separately and that helps. Some people use colostrum, Transfer Factor,

Egg cell immune powders, and other immune boosters.

--Kurt

Re: Re: Model for CFS primary factors.

So Blake/Kurt,

How does one go about killing infections??? I know anitbotics for

bacteria, but what about viral???

Thank you for your help,

Janet

in San Diego

Blake Graham <blanket@...> wrote:

Hi Kurt,

My suggestion was toxicity and infections at the same time.

The cycle goes both ways with toxicity and infections. Infections also

inhibit detoxification. For example Dr. Yasko and Dr. Gordon have showed

that in Autistic kids, when you treat the measles and other infections,

chelation suddenly starts working much more effectively. Many of these

kids previously had negative post-DMSA challeng tests, only to be

pouring our mercury after infection treatment. Toxicity also heavily

damages the immune system. As all on this list would agree the task of

treating toxicity and chronic infections is a long term ongoing process.

I can see you could argue both ways, at present I feel both should be

tackled at the same time.

Blake

Re: Model for CFS primary factors.

HI Blake, I agree with you, that you've got the 4 main categories

right.

I should just add tho, that I am the person you describe--chronic

lyme, mercury, low glutathione, and dysbiosis. In fact, lyme is

known

to sometimes cause inflammatory bowel disease. In any case,

magnesium

not only helps me (IV) but it is crucial to me.

Just fyi .

The question is also, what order should we address those four? That

is

probably individual. TO do all four at once is too much for many

delicate beleagured sick folks.

>

> Dear list,

>

> I have been researching CFS for 5 years in the forms of books,

journal articles, web articles, CFS lists and discussing CFS with

every health professional I meet. I also had a mild form of CFS

myself, treat patients with CFS/FM in my practice and did my honours

degree thesis on CFS. I thought I would share my current opinion on

the primary factors in CFS. I feel that majority of those with

CFS/FM

have an inter-relating mix of the 4 following issues which are the

main underlying primary factors in CFS:

> -Chronic infections

> -Toxicity (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals, mold, etc.)

> -Glutathione depletion

> -Dysbiosis

>

> I feel that attempts to get well should focus largely on the above

points. Of all the different practitioners I have read about over

the

years who treat CFS, plus in my own experience and those shared on

various CFS lists I have been on over the years, I feel treating the

above factors achieves the most solid and lasting benefits.

>

> The factors listed below I believe are (for the most part) more of

a

secondary nature. That's not say they are not important to consider

in

treatment, but I believe they as a whole produce less lasting and

significant benefits, many of which are caused by the primary

factors

listed above:

> -Nutrient imbalances

> -Hormone & neurotransmitter imbalances

> -Sleep problems

> -Psychological issues

> -Hyper-coagulation

> -Food sensitivities

>

> This is a generalised model and there are certainly exceptions.

Just

to illustrate how to above model applies, for example if a person

has

a chronic lyme infection, mercury toxicity, glutathione deficiency

and

dysbiosis, then correcting magnesium deficiency would not be

expected

to make a huge difference.

>

> Regards,

>

> Blake Graham, B.Sc (Honours)

> Integrative Nutritionist

> Perth, Western Australia

> http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/

>

May 12, 2006

And it's also true that some people thought they recovered from TB

but learned years later that they didn't really and that their

health problems were a result of latent/low grade tb infection. Also

possible that some people never developed symptoms at all but still

suffered over the long term.

Unfortunately, I think we're more in the latent, chronic infection

category and people just don't recognize it. It would be so much

easier if we went directly to sepsis. But the bugs are getting to

smart. Sepsis kills the host, and the bugs die. Keep the host alive

as long as possible and the bugs live, thrive, replicate and

continue spreading. They're very smart, in their own little

brainless ways.

penny

> >

> > Blake, I'm sorry but first show me how you can kill TB without

> > mainstream medicine and I might get interested. This is the kind

of

> > thing we're dealing with here. Our bugs are just slower to kill

than

> > TB, but just as damaging in the long run.

> >

>

> Not to belabor the point, but sanitoriums used to work for some

when

> tuberculosis was epidemic, and Gerson's diet cured ALbert

Schweitzer's

> wife of t.b.

>

May 12, 2006

Two warnings about silver and H202. My friend has tested silver in

vitro, and many are little more than colored water, so be sure you

get one that you know is capable of killing stuff.

Every person I know who's had H202 infusions has screwed up their

veins. I don't care if it's the new kind that's not supposed to do

this or not (which is what I used). I can't get blood drawn now, and

it was never a problem before H202. Everyone in my doc's infusion

room has the same problem with needles in their feet, or back of

wrist, because their veins are blown.

penny

> >

> > Dear list,

> >

> > I have been researching CFS for 5 years in the forms of

books,

> journal articles, web articles, CFS lists and discussing CFS

with

> every health professional I meet. I also had a mild form of CFS

> myself, treat patients with CFS/FM in my practice and did my

honours

> degree thesis on CFS. I thought I would share my current

opinion on

> the primary factors in CFS. I feel that majority of those with

> CFS/FM

> have an inter-relating mix of the 4 following issues which are

the

> main underlying primary factors in CFS:

> > -Chronic infections

> > -Toxicity (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals, mold, etc.)

> > -Glutathione depletion

> > -Dysbiosis

> >

> > I feel that attempts to get well should focus largely on the

above

> points. Of all the different practitioners I have read about

over

> the

> years who treat CFS, plus in my own experience and those

shared on

> various CFS lists I have been on over the years, I feel

treating the

> above factors achieves the most solid and lasting benefits.

> >

> > The factors listed below I believe are (for the most part)

more of

> a

> secondary nature. That's not say they are not important to

consider

> in

> treatment, but I believe they as a whole produce less lasting

and

> significant benefits, many of which are caused by the primary

> factors

> listed above:

> > -Nutrient imbalances

> > -Hormone & neurotransmitter imbalances

> > -Sleep problems

> > -Psychological issues

> > -Hyper-coagulation

> > -Food sensitivities

> >

> > This is a generalised model and there are certainly

exceptions.

> Just

> to illustrate how to above model applies, for example if a

person

> has

> a chronic lyme infection, mercury toxicity, glutathione

deficiency

> and

> dysbiosis, then correcting magnesium deficiency would not be

> expected

> to make a huge difference.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Blake Graham, B.Sc (Honours)

> > Integrative Nutritionist

> > Perth, Western Australia

> > http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/

> >

May 12, 2006

I'm pretty sure Anne Porter had t.b. and recovered and lived

a long life. I honestly think most of us could recover if we had the

true discipline to alter our terrain entirely. We'd have to do

high-potency green juices 10 times a day, fresh liver juice from

organically raised calves, etc etc...maybe do fasting, sweating,

colonics, I mean...who has the discipline, time, and money to do this?

You have to dedicate your life to it for a good long while and I don't

think you can go back to your old ways of eating. I try to eat

healthy, but I haven't done colonics, and I certainly vary from a

healthy diet frequently. I'm doing my best...

As for brainless smart microbes, that's why I got banned from lymenet

apparently. I made as strong a case as possible for the genius of

microbes. When I spoke to e who tried to make a vaccine

at Tulane, he said of borrelia, You are witnessing millions of years

of evolution in a single moment.

But the thing is, all of life evolved together. When you read about

essential oils, it is fascinating to see what plants create, how and

why. So we're all of a piece. One reason I'm leery of longterm

antibiotic therapy is that it makes a presumption on evolution that is

just not true. You really have to have the luck of the draw with long

term antibiotic therapy--to have all the right genes, not to get

dysbiosis, not to get superinfections of fungus, and not to evolve

superorganisms within your own body that become highly resistant.

Because evolution dictates that microbes will evolve defenses. It's

not even just random mutation, their genes upregulate or downregulate

in response to pressures from the environment (i.e. your body) AND

they exchange genes with other better adapted microbes.

But you know all this .

What has happened to infection and inflammation? You usually don't

post as much here.

> > >

> > > Blake, I'm sorry but first show me how you can kill TB without

> > > mainstream medicine and I might get interested. This is the kind

> of

> > > thing we're dealing with here. Our bugs are just slower to kill

> than

> > > TB, but just as damaging in the long run.

> > >

> >

> > Not to belabor the point, but sanitoriums used to work for some

> when

> > tuberculosis was epidemic, and Gerson's diet cured ALbert

> Schweitzer's

> > wife of t.b.

> >

>

May 12, 2006

Hi Penny,

I agree with " Inflammation is a huge factor in so many illnesses. It's the

inflammation that kills you in SARS, menningitis, etc., not the virus. "

I just think we should focus on what is causing the inflammation, rather than

focusing on giving anti-inflammatories. Giving anti-inflammatories (whiel it has

it's place) is more of a mainstrem medicine mindset.

blake

Re: Model for CFS primary factors.

disagree 100%. Inflammation is a huge factor in so many illnesses.

It's the inflammation that kills you in SARS, menningitis, etc., not

the virus. We have to keep the inflammation at least controlled

enough to let the treatments have a chance to work.

The question should not be why have antibodies gone wild, or why has

our immune system turned against us? It should be, what are these

antibodies attacking & what is the immune system really responding

to?

Nobody's looking at the common organisms that are actually deadly

when they gain access to parts of our body that the IS cannot easily

access. We're dying of peripheral damage. Friendly fire is killing

us.

penny

>

> Hi Penny,

>

> I just wanted to point out that auto-immunity is present to some

degree in many of those with CFS. For example antinuclear antibodies

are frequently positive. Anti-thyroid antibodies also. These are

just a few.

>

> While inflammation is imporant I feel focusing on it (with anti-

inflammatories) is not the right path to take. I feel we should be

focusing more on the primary issues.

>

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

May 12, 2006

I am getting in at the end of this discussion of mercury toxins,

environmental toxins, vs infection toxins, etc, but I just want to

say that I just purchased Andy Cutlers book on Mercury chelation. I

had already decided that Mercury chelation was primary for me after

reading the DAN! book and mercury protocol and some of the Amy Yasko

articles.

But when I read Andy Cutlers chapter on how mercury affects you I was

just really blown away. He provides a detailed discussion of the

symptoms and tge effect on enzymes and chemistry, etc. I just

thought " Wow, this is so much of my illness. I really have to focus

on this as much as possible. "

I may be the last person on this list to read Cutler's book, but I am

*So Glad* that I am reading it. I have also printed off the DAN!

protocol and will continue to read as much as I can about Yasko's

program.

I just wish there was someway to speed up chelation, because I feel

like I am starting to run out of time.

Wishing you all enlightenment and success in tackling your illneses.

Vickie

> > >

> > > Dear list,

> > >

> > > I have been researching CFS for 5 years in the forms of

> books,

> > journal articles, web articles, CFS lists and discussing CFS

> with

> > every health professional I meet. I also had a mild form of

CFS

> > myself, treat patients with CFS/FM in my practice and did my

> honours

> > degree thesis on CFS. I thought I would share my current

> opinion on

> > the primary factors in CFS. I feel that majority of those

with

> CFS/FM

> > have an inter-relating mix of the 4 following issues which

are

> the

> > main underlying primary factors in CFS:

> > > -Chronic infections

> > > -Toxicity (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals, mold, etc.)

> > > -Glutathione depletion

> > > -Dysbiosis

> > >

> > > I feel that attempts to get well should focus largely on

the

> above

> > points. Of all the different practitioners I have read about

> over the

> > years who treat CFS, plus in my own experience and those

> shared on

> > various CFS lists I have been on over the years, I feel

> treating the

> > above factors achieves the most solid and lasting benefits.

> > >

> > > The factors listed below I believe are (for the most part)

> more of a

> > secondary nature. That's not say they are not important to

> consider in

> > treatment, but I believe they as a whole produce less lasting

> and

> > significant benefits, many of which are caused by the primary

> factors

> > listed above:

> > > -Nutrient imbalances

> > > -Hormone & neurotransmitter imbalances

> > > -Sleep problems

> > > -Psychological issues

> > > -Hyper-coagulation

> > > -Food sensitivities

> > >

> > > This is a generalised model and there are certainly

> exceptions. Just

> > to illustrate how to above model applies, for example if a

> person has

> > a chronic lyme infection, mercury toxicity, glutathione

> deficiency and

> > dysbiosis, then correcting magnesium deficiency would not be

> expected

> > to make a huge difference.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > >

> > > Blake Graham, B.Sc (Honours)

> > > Integrative Nutritionist

> > > Perth, Western Australia

> > > http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/

> > >

May 12, 2006

We can't spend our lives testing and treating every pathogenic bug that

is attacking us. There are probably thousands if not millions of

varieties.

Clearly the IDS part of CFIDS is involved in all of these. When Blake

says 'Infections' I assume that much of that involves immune support.

And if we fix the first three items (dysbiosis, glutathione, toxicity),

probably the immune system will work much, much better. Particular the

part of the immune in the gut. This is why I believe salt/c is

essential, because it really does appear to fix the whole gut. I fought

my gut for many years and used all types of treatments and salt/c was

the best by far. It kills or slows down the bad bugs and leaves alone

the good probiotic bugs. This is how pickling processes work, how you

preserve food, and how we can ferment our gut. Salt and a mild acid.

(OK, in pickling they use acetic acid [vinegar] and salt, but I assume

that ascorbic acid is a good substitute because it works).

And I do worry about the environmental toxins as they can trigger the

shut-down of part of the detox system, just read Shoemaker's book.

--Kurt

Re: Model for CFS primary factors.

Yeah. You're missing numerous staphs, strep, p. acnes, pseudomonas,

actinomyces, even c. pneumonia. It's like everybody's looking for a

needle in a haystack, when the haystack's the problem.

These are the BACTERIAL bugs AND the bacterial TOXINS they produce

that you need to worry about, because they're everywhere, and we're

giving them all kinds of access to dangerous places in our bodies.

penny

>

> Blake,

> I love your Occam-type treatment simplification. But why

infections

> first, before toxicity? I would think it would be:

>

> Dysbiosis

> Glutathione

> Toxicity

> Infections

>

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with

each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor.

May 12, 2006

I know someone who is recovered from CFS after H2O2 infusions, and her

veins are fine. But I agree in principle, I would not use this IV. I

was suggesting H2O2 in the ears, which is recommended by Mercola and I

use it and it works.

--Kurt

Re: Model for CFS primary factors.

Two warnings about silver and H202. My friend has tested silver in

vitro, and many are little more than colored water, so be sure you

get one that you know is capable of killing stuff.

Every person I know who's had H202 infusions has screwed up their

veins. I don't care if it's the new kind that's not supposed to do

this or not (which is what I used). I can't get blood drawn now, and

it was never a problem before H202. Everyone in my doc's infusion

room has the same problem with needles in their feet, or back of

wrist, because their veins are blown.

penny

> >

> > Dear list,

> >

> > I have been researching CFS for 5 years in the forms of

books,

> journal articles, web articles, CFS lists and discussing CFS

with

> every health professional I meet. I also had a mild form of CFS

> myself, treat patients with CFS/FM in my practice and did my

honours

> degree thesis on CFS. I thought I would share my current

opinion on

> the primary factors in CFS. I feel that majority of those with

> CFS/FM

> have an inter-relating mix of the 4 following issues which are

the

> main underlying primary factors in CFS:

> > -Chronic infections

> > -Toxicity (heavy metals, synthetic chemicals, mold, etc.)

> > -Glutathione depletion

> > -Dysbiosis

> >

> > I feel that attempts to get well should focus largely on the

above

> points. Of all the different practitioners I have read about

over

> the

> years who treat CFS, plus in my own experience and those

shared on

> various CFS lists I have been on over the years, I feel

treating the

> above factors achieves the most solid and lasting benefits.

> >

> > The factors listed below I believe are (for the most part)

more of

> a

> secondary nature. That's not say they are not important to

consider

> in

> treatment, but I believe they as a whole produce less lasting

and

> significant benefits, many of which are caused by the primary

> factors

> listed above:

> > -Nutrient imbalances

> > -Hormone & neurotransmitter imbalances

> > -Sleep problems

> > -Psychological issues

> > -Hyper-coagulation

> > -Food sensitivities

> >

> > This is a generalised model and there are certainly

exceptions.

> Just

> to illustrate how to above model applies, for example if a

person

> has

> a chronic lyme infection, mercury toxicity, glutathione

deficiency

> and

> dysbiosis, then correcting magnesium deficiency would not be

> expected

> to make a huge difference.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Blake Graham, B.Sc (Honours)

> > Integrative Nutritionist

> > Perth, Western Australia

> > http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/

> >

May 12, 2006

H2O2 is Hydrogen Peroxide, the usual 3% grade.

CVM3 is a very potent colloid silver product. See: http://www.cvm3.net/

.. I have not used this but have heard positive reports. I have

however used the Argentyn23 CS product I mentioned and it is very

powerful.