Guest guest Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 The push/crash symptom is simply something that is reported by almost all PWCs. If we didn't crash after pushing, there wouldn't be anything wrong w/ us, i.e., we could live normal lives. P/C is similar to the cause of CFS-nobody really knows for sure. I am going through P/C right now. Every PWC that I know suffers from it. Never heard of a good medical explanation. Sorry for not answering your question. Mike C > > I was asked for some readily available reference that says how pushing can do > serious damage. > > I think Cheney said pushing injures mitochondria. I know there is a > correlation between RNase L and physical abilities, but I need something that says how > pushing does real damage. > > Anyone have an understandable, accessible, and scientific reference I could > use? > > Thanks, > > Jim > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2006 Report Share Posted April 9, 2006 Hi, Jim. I don't know of anything that's published in a peer-reviewed journal. All I can offer is a logical argument, for which I think there is a lot of evidence. First, most PWCs are in a state of oxidative stress. If you want the references for that, see page 15 and the reference section of my 2004 AACFS poster paper at http://www.cfsresearch.org/cfs/research/treatment/15.htm Second, a state of oxidative stress means that the production of reactive oxygen species is exceeding the ability of the antioxidant system to chemically reduce them. That's just the definition of oxidative stress. Third, oxidative metabolism produces reactive oxygen species. This has been known for a long time, and it is the reason why the mitochondria have their own superoxide dismutase enzyme. I have seen estimates that as much as 2% of the oxygen used in oxidative metabolism goes into making superoxide ions. Fourth, when a person exercises, the metabolic rate in the skeletal muscles increases. I think this is obvious. Fifth, if the metabolic rate is increased, rate of oxygen utilizion is increased. Anyone who has exercised knows this. Sixth, a higher rate of oxygen utilization means a higher rate of production of reactive oxygen species. This follows from the fact that they are more or less proportional. Seventh, if the rate of production of reactive oxygen species is increased in a cell that is already in a state of oxidative stress, the extra reactive oxygen species will not be reduced by the antioxidant system, because it is already overtaxed. Eighth, these extra reactive oxygen species are highly chemically reactive, and they will find something to react with. Since most of them are produced in the mitochondrial membrane, the first target will be the lipids in the membrane, particularly the unsaturated essential fatty acids, since they are the most chemically reactive. Damage will also be done to proteins and to DNA. These things are well established. I hope this helps. Sorry I don't have one peer-reviewed reference where it's all set down together. Maybe if there was one, the British psychiatrists would have a tougher time selling their exercise programs. I think that J. Mark Van Ness, Snell and Staci s are the people who have the right approach to exercise in CFS. They may not understand all the above, but they proceed as though they do. Rich -- In , jschm111@... wrote: > > I was asked for some readily available reference that says how pushing can do > serious damage. > > I think Cheney said pushing injures mitochondria. I know there is a > correlation between RNase L and physical abilities, but I need something that says how > pushing does real damage. > > Anyone have an understandable, accessible, and scientific reference I could > use? > > Thanks, > > Jim > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 push just means pushing yourself physically, and the idea is to do as much as you can w/out causing a crash. push too hard and you crash. jim > I'm still looking for a thorough explanation of what a " push " actually > is. Anyone? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 I'm still looking for a thorough explanation of what a " push " actually is. Anyone? in Champaign IL > > I was asked for some readily available reference that says how pushing can do > serious damage. > > I think Cheney said pushing injures mitochondria. I know there is a > correlation between RNase L and physical abilities, but I need something that says how > pushing does real damage. > > Anyone have an understandable, accessible, and scientific reference I could > use? > > Thanks, > > Jim > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 That makes sense. Thanks, Jim. Isn't there another kind of " push " being talked about here periodically though? Someone might be taking a particular medicine by a particular method (IV drip or other?) and then they will say they either did, themselves, this " push " (of the same medicine or another one entirely) or else their doctor did (or prescribed) the " push. " Can you (or anyone) explain this better for me? Thanks again, in Champaign IL > > push just means pushing yourself physically, and the idea is to do as much as > you can w/out causing a crash. push too hard and you crash. > > jim > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 > > Isn't there another kind of " push " being talked about here > periodically though? Someone might be taking a particular medicine > by a particular method (IV drip or other?) and then they will say > they either did, themselves, this " push " (of the same medicine or > another one entirely) or else their doctor did (or prescribed) > the " push. " > > ***Hi - It sounds like you are asking about an " IV Push " . As you know some meds/supplements can be administered directly by a needle and syringe into the muscle and takes all of about 15 seconds. Another method is a slow IV drip from a bag that can take a good hour or more. With an " IV Push " , the patient is usually sitting comfortably reclined, an needle is inserted into the vein in the elbow, a long tube is attached to the needle and at the other end is a big syringe. The person administering the " IV Push " SLOWLY pushes the contents of the syringe into the vein. This usually takes 5 to 10 minutes. I'm crap at explaining things so I hope that this makes sense to you :-) Take care. Bernie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 No, you did fine, Bernie! Thank you. That helps. I think what confuses me still is whether the medicine that is " pushed " is the same stuff that would otherwise be administered another way or during a different length of time. Does that make sense? Or if it's another totally different medication and it's " pushed " at the time the person, the patient, usually gets whatever other regular (different) medication he might get. Does **that** make any sense? ...I feel like I'm digging this hole deeper and deeper! > > ***Hi - It sounds like you are asking about an " IV Push " . As > you know some meds/supplements can be administered directly by a > needle and syringe into the muscle and takes all of about 15 seconds. > Another method is a slow IV drip from a bag that can take a good hour > or more. > > With an " IV Push " , the patient is usually sitting comfortably > reclined, an needle is inserted into the vein in the elbow, a long > tube is attached to the needle and at the other end is a big syringe. > The person administering the " IV Push " SLOWLY pushes the contents of > the syringe into the vein. This usually takes 5 to 10 minutes. > > I'm crap at explaining things so I hope that this makes sense to > you :-) > > Take care. > > Bernie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 > > No, you did fine, Bernie! Thank you. That helps. I think what > confuses me still is whether the medicine that is " pushed " is the > same stuff that would otherwise be administered another way or during > a different length of time. ***Hi - It is the same drugs that are being " pushed " , it is just a different method of delivery. Take care. Bernie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 Thank you, Bernie. I appreciate the help. > > ***Hi - It is the same drugs that are being " pushed " , it is just > a different method of delivery. > > Take care. > > Bernie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 I may be the guilty party who referred to a magnesium " push " . In this case the doctor wanted me to have more magnesium than could be administered in a shot, and since magnesium sometimes is not well absorbed orally, doing it IV is sometimes the best alternative. In this case a large (30cc) syringe of normal saline and a certain amount of magnesium chloride are administered IV. It takes a very short time to do this, a few minutes. This is opposed to an IV drip, where you sit for a long period of time having medication dripping from a bag/bottle thru the IV. Maybe the other confusion is that if a person has an adverse reaction to whatever is in the " push " they can " crash " - get worse. Michele G > > > > ***Hi - It is the same drugs that are being " pushed " , it is > just > > a different method of delivery. > > > > Take care. > > > > Bernie > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2006 Report Share Posted April 14, 2006 " Guilty party " ? Hee-hee. Thanks for the explanation, . It helps a lot. > > I may be the guilty party who referred to a magnesium " push " . In this > case the doctor wanted me to have more magnesium than could be > administered in a shot, and since magnesium sometimes is not well > absorbed orally, doing it IV is sometimes the best alternative. In > this case a large (30cc) syringe of normal saline and a certain amount > of magnesium chloride are administered IV. It takes a very short time > to do this, a few minutes. This is opposed to an IV drip, where you > sit for a long period of time having medication dripping from a > bag/bottle thru the IV. > Maybe the other confusion is that if a person has an adverse reaction > to whatever is in the " push " they can " crash " - get worse. > Michele G > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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