Demon Klonopin/ Suicide Rates/False Guilt

[Guest guest]

We like to think that the major problem with Klonopin will only be

seen if we try to get off it - it is tough to impossible to get off

without serious difficulty.

***If one has trouble decreasing 10% a week, it is not the mere medication

and addressed this before. I wean folks off these medications every week,

but harder in sick folks with medical issues promoting anxiety. Anxiety

disorders are the top medical and neurocognitive problems in medicine. One

can pathologize that in the same way folks mock FM, but I think that is an

error.

But there is an even more serious possibility with Klonopin if it

suppresses the immune system.

***Drug side effect lists which are the kind I like ALL have these immune

and other side effects listed below. I have never seen any benzodiazapine

drop any of these.

***I would think that the average high potency standardized German or Swiss

herb has at least the same number of side effects possible from one of my

200.00 herbal texts.

*** Vit A and B6 at some doses can be dangerous. Avoid?

This is similar to the problems with steroids

***Comparing any benzodoazapine to the MASSIVE effects of steriods is word

play and not medical reality. At best comparing a panfish to a whale.

Here is the drug insert for Klonopin from Roche.

***The PDR drug inserts give lists of things one never sees or things on

should have added which are not present in the list. Any physician who uses

the PDF for anything other than drug company addresses and pill

identification, and uses these approved advertisements as their medical book

is 20 years behind the times and is not a solid pharmacologist.

***The PDR is like learning about essential oils or herbal medicine from

your local produce person. Or Xenotoxins from the local pest control worker.

So glad that folks with panic attacks, social anxiety and seizures should

feel like losers and fear the demon drug Klonopin. The DEA would be pleased.

Now lets remove all pain medications because of the 50 side effects possible

and let folks with rotting joints suffer and long for death.

There is a reason 99% of docs will not treat pain, and it is not medical

science, which advocates full chronic pain control, but fear of folks making

comments like these about Benzo's and " hooking someone " in an evil and

sociopathic manner. Keep it up and folks will have even higher suicide rates

from anxiety......

Oh yes, anxiety of the type I have mentions has a MASSIVE impact of suicide

rates.

Dr. Schaller

>> Mel and all

>>

>>

>>

>> I am sitting here with an unfilled script for Klonopin from a doc

> I respect.

>> However, I would not touch that stuff with a ten foot pole.

>>

>> My late (adopted) son had significant seizure disorder including

> episodes of

>> status epilepticus and we learned over the years to supplement his

> brain to

>> calm the seizure activity, decrease significantly those drugs.....

> which were

>> part of the problem.

>>

>> When using GABA, inositol is a cofactor. I've had good benefit

> with this

>> combo for sleep, brain calming, etc.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> THere truly is more than one way to skin a rabbit......

>>

>>

>> mjh

>>

>> Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2006 12:50:58 -0500

>> From: Mel Baldwin <alphabear@...>

>> Subject: Re: Questioning Cheney for Treating Anxiety?

>>

>> Marcia, Klonopin , like valium, librium, etc., is a

> benzodiazepine, a class

>> of psychotropic drugs that work on the gaba receptors in the

> brain, producing

>> a calming effect. Klonopin and librium are used often in

> controlling

>> seizures. This works by calming the overfiring neurons, a

> condition that can lead to

>> their destruction...physical brain damage. If, then, one has these

>> overfiring neurons in their brain, the choice is to calm them or

> lose them..the body

>> does not tolerate these overactive processes. For some, the amino

> acid ,

>> GABA, will provide the calming, protective function. If that is

> not adequate, the

>> best alternative, in my opionion, is klonopin. My wife and I have

> used

>> klonopin in1-2 mg daily doses for more than ten years with nothing

> but benefit.

>> Benzodiazepines have received a bad rap due to abuse and

> inappropriate

>> application. Granted, it is easier to start klonopin than to DC

> it. But, there are no

>> perfect meds that only do one thing exactly as we want them to

> work. Benzos

>> can be DC'd without consequence if done very slowly, preferably

> with the

>> liquified version. I would suggest the adding GABA 500-1000 ng

> would facilitate

>> withdrawal. One more point on the general subject of

> benzodiazapines. I

>> worked 50 years with psychiatric medications, from the invention

> of thoraxine to

>> the miracle antipsychotic, zyprexa. Of them all, benzodazepines

> were the least

>> problematic, most undervalued, and most maligned. Mel PS:

> Klonopin is

>> best taken at nite as it DOES facilitate sleep...but so does GABA

> PPS: The

>> FDA is NOT your friend.

>> ----- Original Message -----

>>

>>

>>

>> mjh

>> " The Basil Book "

>> http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/

>>

>>

>> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

> other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

> discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

[Guest guest]

Dr. Schaller,

Dr. Cheney is not using low dose Klonopin for anxiety. He is using it

on sick people with cfids to stop " seizure activity " in the brain. I

have known a lot of his patients while living near Charlotte, NC.

They continued very sick. I have known a few patients on Klonopin. I

cannot see where it helped them. Indeed, they remain among the

sickest patients I have known and one of them is now dead- probably

not from the Klonopin.

You seemed to dislike the PDA list of side effects I posted for

Klonopin. The trouble is these side effects generally are

underreported because the FDA staff assigned to handle drug

complaints has files of complaints stacked up around the walls and

not enough staff to even look at these things.

If you want to prescribe Klonopin in a depressed or anxiety ridden

patient where you can watch for the potential side effects I listed

fine. But when the serious side effects look JUST LIKE THE DISEASE

YOU ARE TREATING that is not good.

My personal experience is not with Klonopin. I had a bad experience

with Paxil when I first got sick and therefore feared to take any

drug after that.

My personal experience of severe drug harm was from Levaquin and

Avalox for Lyme. I almost immediately developed severe CNS problems

with anxiety attacks and disturbed sleep patterns. I also developed

severe tendon damage to the level that I was almost unable to walk

for three years. The CNS damage risk is not even listed on the drug

insert. The tendon damage is not described in a way that a Lyme

patient would ever figure out what was happening. I was heartened

this past weekend that quinolones were not mentioned at all, as far

as I heard, to treat borrelia. This is a big step in the right

direction.

There are a lot of horror stories amonst us patients regarding both

benzos and quinolones. I take the stories seriously, because I do not

believe the PDA reports are anywhere near reality. The reality is

much worse.

Is Klonopin a demon? No, but the misuse of it on cfids patients

certainly is " demonic. " This is not about an anxiety ridden but

otherwise healthy person taking Klonopin. It is about a sick person

who may not be able to tolerate it, and is being given it for NO GOOD

REASON. If Cheney would go back to square one and start looking for

borrelia, babesia, erhlichia, rickettsia, mycoplasma etc he would be

doing us all a big favor and Dr. Jemsek might benefit as well. Jemsek

is the only doctor in Charlotte, NC who gets it.

a Carnes

>

> We like to think that the major problem with Klonopin will only be

> seen if we try to get off it - it is tough to impossible to get off

> without serious difficulty.

>

> ***If one has trouble decreasing 10% a week, it is not the mere

medication

> and addressed this before. I wean folks off these medications every

week,

> but harder in sick folks with medical issues promoting anxiety.

Anxiety

> disorders are the top medical and neurocognitive problems in

medicine. One

> can pathologize that in the same way folks mock FM, but I think

that is an

> error.

>

> But there is an even more serious possibility with Klonopin if it

> suppresses the immune system.

>

> ***Drug side effect lists which are the kind I like ALL have these

immune

> and other side effects listed below. I have never seen any

benzodiazapine

> drop any of these.

> ***I would think that the average high potency standardized German

or Swiss

> herb has at least the same number of side effects possible from one

of my

> 200.00 herbal texts.

> *** Vit A and B6 at some doses can be dangerous. Avoid?

>

> This is similar to the problems with steroids

> ***Comparing any benzodoazapine to the MASSIVE effects of steriods

is word

> play and not medical reality. At best comparing a panfish to a

whale.

>

> Here is the drug insert for Klonopin from Roche.

>

> ***The PDR drug inserts give lists of things one never sees or

things on

> should have added which are not present in the list. Any physician

who uses

> the PDF for anything other than drug company addresses and pill

> identification, and uses these approved advertisements as their

medical book

> is 20 years behind the times and is not a solid pharmacologist.

>

> ***The PDR is like learning about essential oils or herbal medicine

from

> your local produce person. Or Xenotoxins from the local pest

control worker.

>

> So glad that folks with panic attacks, social anxiety and seizures

should

> feel like losers and fear the demon drug Klonopin. The DEA would be

pleased.

>

> Now lets remove all pain medications because of the 50 side effects

possible

> and let folks with rotting joints suffer and long for death.

>

> There is a reason 99% of docs will not treat pain, and it is not

medical

> science, which advocates full chronic pain control, but fear of

folks making

> comments like these about Benzo's and " hooking someone " in an evil

and

> sociopathic manner. Keep it up and folks will have even higher

suicide rates

> from anxiety......

>

> Oh yes, anxiety of the type I have mentions has a MASSIVE impact of

suicide

> rates.

>

> Dr. Schaller

>

[Guest guest]

Klonopin is mentioned as a drug of choice by CFS physicians all

over the country. The CAA just did a survey showing such. As with

all drugs, what helps one person may hurt/not help another.

I respect your opinion, but to say K is given for 'no good reason'

*may* not be quite accurate.

Mike C

>

> Dr. Schaller,

> Dr. Cheney is not using low dose Klonopin for anxiety. He is using

> much worse.

>

> Is Klonopin a demon? No, but the misuse of it on cfids patients

> certainly is " demonic. " This is not about an anxiety ridden but

> otherwise healthy person taking Klonopin. It is about a sick

person

> who may not be able to tolerate it, and is being given it for NO

GOOD

> REASON. If Cheney would go back to square one and start looking

for

> borrelia, babesia, erhlichia, rickettsia, mycoplasma etc he would

be

> doing us all a big favor and Dr. Jemsek might benefit as well.

Jemsek

> is the only doctor in Charlotte, NC who gets it.

>

> a Carnes

[Guest guest]

Mike, I will post Dr. Cheney's overview of why he thinks Klonopin is

good for cfids brains. He makes a good case, except for the reality

that his patients do not recover. The CNS problem is, IMO, due to

severe, chronic infection in the CNS. Until that is aggressively

treated the brain damage will continue, Klonopin or no.

a Carnes

>

> Klonopin is mentioned as a drug of choice by CFS physicians all

> over the country. The CAA just did a survey showing such. As with

> all drugs, what helps one person may hurt/not help another.

> I respect your opinion, but to say K is given for 'no good reason'

> *may* not be quite accurate.

>

> Mike C

[Guest guest]

I've left Mike C's post attached here for the sake of perspective, since

Cheney appears to be the only doc being called a demon for prescribing

Klonopin for " no good reason " , when in fact, he believes it is for a " very

good reason. " You just happen to disagree passionately, which is fine, but

calling someone a demon for " misusing " it, again, in your opinion, is not

going to help any of us here. Present your data, and let people make their

own decisions.

I do wish Cheney would go back to testing for viruses and bacteria like he

used to - he was the ONLY doc I ever saw who tested me for mycoplasma, which

came back positive for m. fermentans. He treated me with abx, (sorry, don't

remember which one or ones, nor for how long - it was several years ago),

but on retest one month after stopping the abx, I came back negative. He

really doesn't believe in the use of L/T abx, so my guess, and my guess

only, would be that if he tests for these things, and gets a positive

response, then he is compelled to treat them, and if he doesn't believe in

L/T abx usage, and if he wasn't comfortable with the efficacy of herbals or

supplements to treat the infections, then he's better off not delving into

these areas. But this is pure speculation, because the reality right now is

that he is knee deep in heart research, and there's only but so much time in

a day to both see patients and research heart, lyme, mycoplasma, etc.

I'm not sure why you say that Dr. Jemsek would benefit from Dr. Cheney going

back to square one, especially since Cheney's in Asheville. Did I miss

something? Jemsek treats both my husband and myself for Lyme. My husband

does not have CFIDS, but he does have Lyme. I started seeing him in early

2003, and while he's been on a pretty steep learning curve these past 3

years, (when I first started seeing him in 2003, and asked him about

mycoplasma, he told me he didn't know anything about it, and blew me off!),

he's still pretty clueless about CFIDS, and totally oblivious to anything

about MCS! But he's a pretty busy guy learning about Lyme still, and

continuing his good work with HIV, and maybe I expect too much of him. At

least that's what my husband tells me when I get irritated with him or any

of my other docs.

I'm glad that no one mentioned fluoroquinolones last weekend, but again, to

keep things in perspective, Jemsek has had my husband on Levaquin for his

Lyme for almost a year now. And when I asked him about tendon damage, he

brushed that off as being a pretty rare problem. My husband is aware of the

discussions on this list regarding this class of abx, and I even e-mailed

him some of your posts, but he's a big boy and capable of making his own

healthcare decisions, whether I agree with them or not. Perhaps he'll take

him off of the Levaquin when we see him in June, (we were just there last

month), and at that point he would have been on it for 13 months. I'm sure

Jemsek is prescribing it for a " good reason, " although I don't agree with

it.

Donna in NC

Re: Demon Klonopin/ Suicide Rates/False Guilt

> Klonopin is mentioned as a drug of choice by CFS physicians all over the

> country. The CAA just did a survey showing such. As with all drugs, what

> helps one person may hurt/not help another. I respect your opinion, but to

> say K is given for 'no good reason' *may* not be quite accurate.

>

> Mike C

>

>

>>

>> Dr. Schaller,

>> Dr. Cheney is not using low dose Klonopin for anxiety. He is using much

>> worse.

>>

>> Is Klonopin a demon? No, but the misuse of it on cfids patients

>> certainly is " demonic. " This is not about an anxiety ridden but

>> otherwise healthy person taking Klonopin. It is about a sick person who

>> may not be able to tolerate it, and is being given it for NO > GOOD

>> REASON. If Cheney would go back to square one and start looking for

>> borrelia, babesia, erhlichia, rickettsia, mycoplasma etc he would be

>> doing us all a big favor and Dr. Jemsek might benefit as well. Jemsek

>> is the only doctor in Charlotte, NC who gets it.

>>

>> a Carnes

[Guest guest]

a, We have a different understanding of the relative merits of klonopin, but

I do support your stand on levaquin. It is the most dangerous drug I have

encountered. It should be removed from the market or given an explicit black box

warning. Mel

Re: Demon Klonopin/ Suicide Rates/False Guilt

Dr. Schaller,

Dr. Cheney is not using low dose Klonopin for anxiety. He is using it

on sick people with cfids to stop " seizure activity " in the brain. I

have known a lot of his patients while living near Charlotte, NC.

They continued very sick. I have known a few patients on Klonopin. I

cannot see where it helped them. Indeed, they remain among the

sickest patients I have known and one of them is now dead- probably

not from the Klonopin.

You seemed to dislike the PDA list of side effects I posted for

Klonopin. The trouble is these side effects generally are

underreported because the FDA staff assigned to handle drug

complaints has files of complaints stacked up around the walls and

not enough staff to even look at these things.

If you want to prescribe Klonopin in a depressed or anxiety ridden

patient where you can watch for the potential side effects I listed

fine. But when the serious side effects look JUST LIKE THE DISEASE

YOU ARE TREATING that is not good.

My personal experience is not with Klonopin. I had a bad experience

with Paxil when I first got sick and therefore feared to take any

drug after that.

My personal experience of severe drug harm was from Levaquin and

Avalox for Lyme. I almost immediately developed severe CNS problems

with anxiety attacks and disturbed sleep patterns. I also developed

severe tendon damage to the level that I was almost unable to walk

for three years. The CNS damage risk is not even listed on the drug

insert. The tendon damage is not described in a way that a Lyme

patient would ever figure out what was happening. I was heartened

this past weekend that quinolones were not mentioned at all, as far

as I heard, to treat borrelia. This is a big step in the right

direction.

There are a lot of horror stories amonst us patients regarding both

benzos and quinolones. I take the stories seriously, because I do not

believe the PDA reports are anywhere near reality. The reality is

much worse.

Is Klonopin a demon? No, but the misuse of it on cfids patients

certainly is " demonic. " This is not about an anxiety ridden but

otherwise healthy person taking Klonopin. It is about a sick person

who may not be able to tolerate it, and is being given it for NO GOOD

REASON. If Cheney would go back to square one and start looking for

borrelia, babesia, erhlichia, rickettsia, mycoplasma etc he would be

doing us all a big favor and Dr. Jemsek might benefit as well. Jemsek

is the only doctor in Charlotte, NC who gets it.

a Carnes

>

> We like to think that the major problem with Klonopin will only be

> seen if we try to get off it - it is tough to impossible to get off

> without serious difficulty.

>

> ***If one has trouble decreasing 10% a week, it is not the mere

medication

> and addressed this before. I wean folks off these medications every

week,

> but harder in sick folks with medical issues promoting anxiety.

Anxiety

> disorders are the top medical and neurocognitive problems in

medicine. One

> can pathologize that in the same way folks mock FM, but I think

that is an

> error.

>

> But there is an even more serious possibility with Klonopin if it

> suppresses the immune system.

>

> ***Drug side effect lists which are the kind I like ALL have these

immune

> and other side effects listed below. I have never seen any

benzodiazapine

> drop any of these.

> ***I would think that the average high potency standardized German

or Swiss

> herb has at least the same number of side effects possible from one

of my

> 200.00 herbal texts.

> *** Vit A and B6 at some doses can be dangerous. Avoid?

>

> This is similar to the problems with steroids

> ***Comparing any benzodoazapine to the MASSIVE effects of steriods

is word

> play and not medical reality. At best comparing a panfish to a

whale.

>

> Here is the drug insert for Klonopin from Roche.

>

> ***The PDR drug inserts give lists of things one never sees or

things on

> should have added which are not present in the list. Any physician

who uses

> the PDF for anything other than drug company addresses and pill

> identification, and uses these approved advertisements as their

medical book

> is 20 years behind the times and is not a solid pharmacologist.

>

> ***The PDR is like learning about essential oils or herbal medicine

from

> your local produce person. Or Xenotoxins from the local pest

control worker.

>

> So glad that folks with panic attacks, social anxiety and seizures

should

> feel like losers and fear the demon drug Klonopin. The DEA would be

pleased.

>

> Now lets remove all pain medications because of the 50 side effects

possible

> and let folks with rotting joints suffer and long for death.

>

> There is a reason 99% of docs will not treat pain, and it is not

medical

> science, which advocates full chronic pain control, but fear of

folks making

> comments like these about Benzo's and " hooking someone " in an evil

and

> sociopathic manner. Keep it up and folks will have even higher

suicide rates

> from anxiety......

>

> Oh yes, anxiety of the type I have mentions has a MASSIVE impact of

suicide

> rates.

>

> Dr. Schaller

>

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

> >>

> >> Dr. Schaller,

> >> Dr. Cheney is not using low dose Klonopin for anxiety. He is

using much

> >> worse.

> >>

> >> Is Klonopin a demon? No, but the misuse of it on cfids patients

> >> certainly is " demonic. " This is not about an anxiety ridden but

> >> otherwise healthy person taking Klonopin. It is about a sick

person who

> >> may not be able to tolerate it, and is being given it for NO >

GOOD

> >> REASON. If Cheney would go back to square one and start

looking for

> >> borrelia, babesia, erhlichia, rickettsia, mycoplasma etc he

would be

> >> doing us all a big favor and Dr. Jemsek might benefit as well.

Jemsek

> >> is the only doctor in Charlotte, NC who gets it.

> >>

> >> a Carnes

.....Thanks a for posting although it did not need to remind me

of how K can mess your health/life up over time. I consider myself

one of the lucky ones to be free of such drugs now. I only speak

from my experience of taking it and as one that has had bad side

effects with several anti-depressants in the past also, maybe my

brain is just too sensitive, as a person I am generally but that can

be a good thing to be tuned into yourself. BW Dianne

>

[Guest guest]

a, I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with levaquin. I had

just the opposite and would hate for people not to know there are 2

sides to this drug. I had bartonella as a co-infection with lyme

and couldn't take rifampin for it because of P450 detox problems. I

took 6 weeks of PO levaquin and high dose IV doxy and got my brain

back - totally. I haven't been able to think, process and function

at this level for 6 years. I knew the risks when I took it, but was

desperate . . . I'm thankful it's still available.

Peace to you,

S.

> >

> > We like to think that the major problem with Klonopin will only

be

> > seen if we try to get off it - it is tough to impossible to get

off

> > without serious difficulty.

> >

> > ***If one has trouble decreasing 10% a week, it is not the mere

> medication

> > and addressed this before. I wean folks off these medications

every

> week,

> > but harder in sick folks with medical issues promoting anxiety.

> Anxiety

> > disorders are the top medical and neurocognitive problems in

> medicine. One

> > can pathologize that in the same way folks mock FM, but I think

> that is an

> > error.

> >

> > But there is an even more serious possibility with Klonopin if it

> > suppresses the immune system.

> >

> > ***Drug side effect lists which are the kind I like ALL have

these

> immune

> > and other side effects listed below. I have never seen any

> benzodiazapine

> > drop any of these.

> > ***I would think that the average high potency standardized

German

> or Swiss

> > herb has at least the same number of side effects possible from

one

> of my

> > 200.00 herbal texts.

> > *** Vit A and B6 at some doses can be dangerous. Avoid?

> >

> > This is similar to the problems with steroids

> > ***Comparing any benzodoazapine to the MASSIVE effects of

steriods

> is word

> > play and not medical reality. At best comparing a panfish to a

> whale.

> >

> > Here is the drug insert for Klonopin from Roche.

> >

> > ***The PDR drug inserts give lists of things one never sees or

> things on

> > should have added which are not present in the list. Any

physician

> who uses

> > the PDF for anything other than drug company addresses and pill

> > identification, and uses these approved advertisements as their

> medical book

> > is 20 years behind the times and is not a solid pharmacologist.

> >

> > ***The PDR is like learning about essential oils or herbal

medicine

> from

> > your local produce person. Or Xenotoxins from the local pest

> control worker.

> >

> > So glad that folks with panic attacks, social anxiety and

seizures

> should

> > feel like losers and fear the demon drug Klonopin. The DEA would

be

> pleased.

> >

> > Now lets remove all pain medications because of the 50 side

effects

> possible

> > and let folks with rotting joints suffer and long for death.

> >

> > There is a reason 99% of docs will not treat pain, and it is not

> medical

> > science, which advocates full chronic pain control, but fear of

> folks making

> > comments like these about Benzo's and " hooking someone " in an

evil

> and

> > sociopathic manner. Keep it up and folks will have even higher

> suicide rates

> > from anxiety......

> >

> > Oh yes, anxiety of the type I have mentions has a MASSIVE impact

of

> suicide

> > rates.

> >

> > Dr. Schaller

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Donna,

I did not call Klonopin, Demon Klonopin. Dr. Schaller wrote that

title as a sarcastic response to my comments on the risks of

Klonopin. I also did not state that NO ONE should take Klonopin. I

don't feel passionately about this either. I've been around these

diseases too long to feel passionate about much of anything.

I lived near Charlotte for 30 years. Cheney's office was located on

the south side of Charlotte in Pineville for a long time. Jemsek was

and is an infectious disease specialist also located in central

Charlotte at the time. He is world known and respected for his work

and is now being crucified for courageously treating us Lyme patients.

It is worth noting that quinolones were not mentioned (that I heard)

at the Hope to Heal Lyme Conf. last weekend. I know many of the Lyme

docs use them. Personally I do not think they are safe for Lyme

because we tend to have low magnesium levels and a lot of pain and

anxiety. As you have probably read me post before tendon aching and

CNS damage are also side effects of quinolone damage. Some have

speculated that the likelihood of this damage is increased with low

magnesium levels. I don't know. No one does.

I hope this clarifies a bit of what I have written. You know, perhaps

we all need to get less passionate and more objective. I don't care

if Schaller wants to defend his use of klonopin on patients. I

respect his opinion. I even agree with it when the patient is a

psychiatric patient. I do not agree with the use of Klonopin for

cfids, fms or Lyme. I base this on a lot of years of experience with

patient advocacy groups and a lot of conversation with cfids docs. I

know many patients on klonopin for years - they are not doing well.

The support group in Charlotte was NOT a group of healthy people.

Most of them were Cheney and Lapp patients. What can I say? I went to

Flechas in ville. I don't really remember other patients in

the Charlotte group who ever got as well as I did with longterm

antibiotic therapy - no quinolones.

My experience and that of others is that minocycline and Zithromax

are actually quite effective and reasonably safe pulsed and low dose.

a Carnes

> >>

> >> Dr. Schaller,

> >> Dr. Cheney is not using low dose Klonopin for anxiety. He is

using much

> >> worse.

> >>

> >> Is Klonopin a demon? No, but the misuse of it on cfids patients

> >> certainly is " demonic. " This is not about an anxiety ridden but

> >> otherwise healthy person taking Klonopin. It is about a sick

person who

> >> may not be able to tolerate it, and is being given it for NO >

GOOD

> >> REASON. If Cheney would go back to square one and start looking

for

> >> borrelia, babesia, erhlichia, rickettsia, mycoplasma etc he

would be

> >> doing us all a big favor and Dr. Jemsek might benefit as well.

Jemsek

> >> is the only doctor in Charlotte, NC who gets it.

> >>

> >> a Carnes

>

[Guest guest]

a, I respect you highly and think you're one of the smartest

people on this list, but I disagree with your perspective on benzos

(now I don't specifically know if klonipin is distinctly different

than other benzos, but I suspect not).

I think Cheney happened upon something significant--and understood the

reasoning. I think Mel spoke of it too. You are quieting the neurons

and that is neuroprotective. Upregulated neurons that are essentially

in mini-seizure mode, from upregulated glutamate and

neuro/exicto-toxins, are going to DIE or ATROPHY, as a protective measure.

If you've got a chronic infection you need to treat some of the

fallout for it while trying to figure out how to quiet down or

suppress the infection.

I don't think CHeney was wrong about this. I also think magnesium

plays a large role in helping this and I find only IV works...IM does

work but it hurts! And makes cysts in my butt!

Klonipin, or prescribing it, is not " demonic " . Benzos can be

lifesavers. BUT not understanding that there is an underlying

bacterial or spirochetal infection is dangerous. If you have only part

of the picture, that's not good. I respect him for his tremendous

work, and for his very interesting picture of the cardiac issues, BUT

he missed the huge central piece. I'm sure half or more of his

patients had lyme or chronic bacterial infections.

I'm wondering how much jawbone infections play a role in all this too.

I've come to the sad conclusion after the tooth extraction disaster,

that my jawbone is now infected, and I'm going to have to take care of

that. The only person I've heard is really good is Dr Hussar out in

Nevada. I really donot feel like making a trip out there although I do

love that landscape. But what a hassle. And no time to do it right

now. But people who get their jawbone infections removed feel better,

all of them. Maybe lyme has an affinity for the jawbone.

Anyway. To my perspective, Cheney thought CFIDS to be viral in origin

so ignored the cause, but had/has a good understanding of many of the

downstream effects and how to at least handle them symptomatically.

There is nothing wrong in that.

> >

> > We like to think that the major problem with Klonopin will only be

> > seen if we try to get off it - it is tough to impossible to get off

> > without serious difficulty.

> >

> > ***If one has trouble decreasing 10% a week, it is not the mere

> medication

> > and addressed this before. I wean folks off these medications every

> week,

> > but harder in sick folks with medical issues promoting anxiety.

> Anxiety

> > disorders are the top medical and neurocognitive problems in

> medicine. One

> > can pathologize that in the same way folks mock FM, but I think

> that is an

> > error.

> >

> > But there is an even more serious possibility with Klonopin if it

> > suppresses the immune system.

> >

> > ***Drug side effect lists which are the kind I like ALL have these

> immune

> > and other side effects listed below. I have never seen any

> benzodiazapine

> > drop any of these.

> > ***I would think that the average high potency standardized German

> or Swiss

> > herb has at least the same number of side effects possible from one

> of my

> > 200.00 herbal texts.

> > *** Vit A and B6 at some doses can be dangerous. Avoid?

> >

> > This is similar to the problems with steroids

> > ***Comparing any benzodoazapine to the MASSIVE effects of steriods

> is word

> > play and not medical reality. At best comparing a panfish to a

> whale.

> >

> > Here is the drug insert for Klonopin from Roche.

> >

> > ***The PDR drug inserts give lists of things one never sees or

> things on

> > should have added which are not present in the list. Any physician

> who uses

> > the PDF for anything other than drug company addresses and pill

> > identification, and uses these approved advertisements as their

> medical book

> > is 20 years behind the times and is not a solid pharmacologist.

> >

> > ***The PDR is like learning about essential oils or herbal medicine

> from

> > your local produce person. Or Xenotoxins from the local pest

> control worker.

> >

> > So glad that folks with panic attacks, social anxiety and seizures

> should

> > feel like losers and fear the demon drug Klonopin. The DEA would be

> pleased.

> >

> > Now lets remove all pain medications because of the 50 side effects

> possible

> > and let folks with rotting joints suffer and long for death.

> >

> > There is a reason 99% of docs will not treat pain, and it is not

> medical

> > science, which advocates full chronic pain control, but fear of

> folks making

> > comments like these about Benzo's and " hooking someone " in an evil

> and

> > sociopathic manner. Keep it up and folks will have even higher

> suicide rates

> > from anxiety......

> >

> > Oh yes, anxiety of the type I have mentions has a MASSIVE impact of

> suicide

> > rates.

> >

> > Dr. Schaller

> >

>

[Guest guest]

a, you're right in that, if you only treat the downstream effects,

you never get to the cause. HOWEVER, treating the downstream effects

can minimize damage.

You did well on certain antibiotics. I CAN'T TAKE THEM at all. I need

to look for other ways. There is no one way. Gudrun, who posts often

on lymenet and sees Dr. Klinghardt, she and hubby recovered from very

severe lyme/etc, with only minimal amounts of antibiotics from time to

time, and mostly lots of alternative medicine. A friend of mine is

recovering on Chinese herbs. I was just reading an interview with

Stamets on mushrooms and I bet they can help a lot. I do fine on

cipro, never tried levaquin.

We're all individual. Your experience--thank goodness you're feeling

better--but it is individual to you.

> > >>

> > >> Dr. Schaller,

> > >> Dr. Cheney is not using low dose Klonopin for anxiety. He is

> using much

> > >> worse.

> > >>

> > >> Is Klonopin a demon? No, but the misuse of it on cfids patients

> > >> certainly is " demonic. " This is not about an anxiety ridden but

> > >> otherwise healthy person taking Klonopin. It is about a sick

> person who

> > >> may not be able to tolerate it, and is being given it for NO >

> GOOD

> > >> REASON. If Cheney would go back to square one and start looking

> for

> > >> borrelia, babesia, erhlichia, rickettsia, mycoplasma etc he

> would be

> > >> doing us all a big favor and Dr. Jemsek might benefit as well.

> Jemsek

> > >> is the only doctor in Charlotte, NC who gets it.

> > >>

> > >> a Carnes

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I just realized my post could be confusing.

I can take antibiotics for a few days or at most a few weeks.

I CANNOT take them longterm because of such severe fungal issues. So I

cannot take them the way a or others did. I WISH I COULD. But it

is forcing me to look for other ways, and maybe in the end whatever I

find helps others (that's one reason I mention HBO...it really really

helps suppress any chronic infection, and puts lots of oxygen into the

tissue and blood.)

> > > >>

> > > >> Dr. Schaller,

> > > >> Dr. Cheney is not using low dose Klonopin for anxiety. He is

> > using much

> > > >> worse.

> > > >>

> > > >> Is Klonopin a demon? No, but the misuse of it on cfids patients

> > > >> certainly is " demonic. " This is not about an anxiety ridden but

> > > >> otherwise healthy person taking Klonopin. It is about a sick

> > person who

> > > >> may not be able to tolerate it, and is being given it for NO >

> > GOOD

> > > >> REASON. If Cheney would go back to square one and start looking

> > for

> > > >> borrelia, babesia, erhlichia, rickettsia, mycoplasma etc he

> > would be

> > > >> doing us all a big favor and Dr. Jemsek might benefit as well.

> > Jemsek

> > > >> is the only doctor in Charlotte, NC who gets it.

> > > >>

> > > >> a Carnes

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

My experience and that of others is that minocycline and Zithromax

are actually quite effective and reasonably safe pulsed and low dose.

a Carnes

a,

I think the 'key' here is what is 'your experience'. I know I've drummed this

home again and again but we are all different. Broad sweeping statements or even

treatments can't be made in such a diverse group. One can't go with the idea

that all cfs is lyme, all quinolones are bad, all Klonopin prescribers are the

devil etc. I think another broad sweeping statement that should maybe come into

question is that we ARE all deficient in magnesium. I beleived that too based on

everything you and others say on these lists. When I was finally tested last

year I was in a fairly high range. I've supplemented off and on for many many

many years with so many diff kinds thinking OMG, I'm low and it causes all these

awful things. I finally stopped all mag supplements and WOW, my heart palps went

away!!! I'd had them since a surg in 2001. I don't think its even 'safe' to

tell everybody they are low in this/that and need to take all these things with

NO testing or basis for that patient. Vitamin D is what made my joint and

muscles pains so much better. Supplements are NOT benign as many think, what

doesn't help is adding to the toxic burden and the imbalances in ones chemistry

and likely causing harm. So if people feel worse on something, I think its

often a crock to call it a herx when its likely a bad reaction. I think some

patients have lyme, I think co-infections build up in immune compromised

patients and its just one of them, this is basically what Cheney found and found

that treating one or the other w/o resolving the immune sytem issues was

neverending and probably damaging to patients as well after many years of it. He

found those that were sick the longest tested pos for the most co-infections

because the immune system doesn't function normally. I did not have a good

experience with Klonopin myself, but it helps others to have a better life, I

dont' see whats the problem with that? If Levaquan or quinolones cure a lot of

people and people are willing to take the risks with them to get better, that

should be their choice. I agree with Dr Schaller, there is a place for most of

these drugs in treating patients, does that me that he/they give them to 'all'

patients, no. But if they have symptoms of this illness that would be benefitted

by those drugs that outweigh the risks, then that might be the best choice. Just

because it wasn't the best choice for you or me, doesn't demonize it.

As far as Dr Cheney's patients, he does not use Klonopin as a 'cure' for CFS,

he's never claimed that, he's always said its for neuroprotection in his

thinking, till basically some 'cure' comes along which hasn't happened. He has

been known to get the very sickest cfs patients in the whole patient group, so

to say they are all lying around at support group meetings not getting well from

his treatment is a harsh judgement. He's never presented himself as a lyme

specialist and thats not his field of study either. I dont' think your case was

every even remotely similar to the average Cheney patient in the first place, so

likely the causes of the illness are different.

I say let everybody make their own choices, respect each other and their

treatments, their thinking, their ideas, thats how we learn. I respect Dr

Shchaller in that he sounds to me like he's seen enough patients with these

types of illness' to know he doesn't know all the answers, he is open to new

information, he knows one treatment won't work for everybody, and has developed

an arsenal of natural and prescription treatments to use based on his years of

experience with such patients. I respect that and wish we had more like him. All

is not black and white with this illness.

JMO,

Marcia

[Guest guest]

Hi, a.

I think the low magnesium idea is an interesting one. As you probably

recall, I've always thought that fluoride in the fluoroquinolones

would be the main suspect for causing the tendon problems found in

some people (including yourself) and in some of the animal studies.

From a chemical standpoint, magnesium fluoride (MgF2, the natural

mineral sellaite) is one of the most insoluble forms of fluoride, more

insoluble than the fluorides of the other cations abundant in the

body: calcium, sodium and potassium. It therefore stands to reason

that from a chemical equilibrium point of view, in competition with

the others, magnesium would tend to bind most of the free fluoride,

with calcium in second place, assuming that there are no major kinetic

differences between these two reactions.

I would imagine that a magnesium fluoride complex in the blood would

be small enough to be filtered out by the kidneys and would pass into

the urine, and that would probably be the normal mechanism for

detoxing the fluoride.

In a person with low magnesium, it would seem that there would be less

free magnesium available to bind the fluoride. In that case, perhaps

the fluoride would bind to magnesium or calcium that was part of the

bones, where most of these substances are found in the body. Perhaps

one of the easiest points of access to this magnesium or calcium would

be at the attachment points of the tendons. Reaction of fluoride at

these points might interfere with the binding of the tendons to the

bone. It is conceivable that only a single fluoride ion would react

with a given ion of magnesium or calcium, leaving the other cation

bond to continue to be associated with the bone. In that way, the

fluoride could stay in place at the junction of the tendon and the

bone, and could continue to interfere with proper bonding there. In

other words, it would sort of act as a " dog in the manger, " if you're

familiar with that old term. It might not completely react with the

magnesium or calcium (using two fluoride ions), but only react sort of

half-way, using only one fluoride ion. Thus, actual magnesium

fluoride or calcium fluoride is not formed and released from the bone,

but the fluoride just stays there as a " spoiler, " preventing good

bonding of tendon to bone.

Of course, this is only a hypothesis, but I think it is plausible. As

I recall, you got benefit from taking the Blasi salts, right? That

would have supplied more magnesium, and maybe there was exchange at

the junction points, eventually flushing the fluoride out. Another

miracle of the dynamic equilibrium concept of chemistry!

Rich

Rich

> It is worth noting that quinolones were not mentioned (that I heard)

> at the Hope to Heal Lyme Conf. last weekend. I know many of the Lyme

> docs use them. Personally I do not think they are safe for Lyme

> because we tend to have low magnesium levels and a lot of pain and

> anxiety. As you have probably read me post before tendon aching and

> CNS damage are also side effects of quinolone damage. Some have

> speculated that the likelihood of this damage is increased with low

> magnesium levels. I don't know. No one does.

[Guest guest]

I have been on Klonopin for 7 years and I got well while on it. Now I'm coming

off because I don't think I need it anymore. But you now know at least 1 person

who got well even while they were taking it.

Doris

----- Original Message -----

From: pjeanneus

Dr. Schaller,

Dr. Cheney is not using low dose Klonopin for anxiety. He is using it

on sick people with cfids to stop " seizure activity " in the brain. I

have known a lot of his patients while living near Charlotte, NC.

They continued very sick. I have known a few patients on Klonopin. I

cannot see where it helped them. Indeed, they remain among the

sickest patients I have known and one of them is now dead- probably

not from the Klonopin.

[Guest guest]

I agree Levaquin is an EFFECTIVE drug, but that doesn't discount the damage it

can do to your tendons. I don't know what percentage of the people get screwed

up, but now that I am better from CFS, I am left with these knees that hurt from

walking and most any other activity, maybe for the rest of my life which could

be 40 years or 50 years.

At a minimum, this warning needs to be very clear, and the minute someone has

pain they need to get off the drug. I took it early on, and one doctor I saw

completely belittled me for thinking it was possible to cause the tendon pain,

even though it was already in the PDR. And it probably shouldn't be given at

all unless every other option has been tried first.

Doris

----- Original Message -----

a, I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with levaquin. I had

just the opposite and would hate for people not to know there are 2

sides to this drug. I had bartonella as a co-infection with lyme

and couldn't take rifampin for it because of P450 detox problems. I

took 6 weeks of PO levaquin and high dose IV doxy and got my brain

back - totally. I haven't been able to think, process and function

at this level for 6 years. I knew the risks when I took it, but was

desperate . . . I'm thankful it's still available.

Peace to you,

S.

[Guest guest]

Klonopin is helping me a lot. Now I go straight to sleep, don't wake

during the night, and wake up feeling more refreshed than when I went

to sleep.

So that's 2 people.

Kat.

>

> I have been on Klonopin for 7 years and I got well while on it. Now

I'm coming off because I don't think I need it anymore. But you now

know at least 1 person who got well even while they were taking it.

>

> Doris

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: pjeanneus

> Dr. Schaller,

> Dr. Cheney is not using low dose Klonopin for anxiety. He is using it

> on sick people with cfids to stop " seizure activity " in the brain. I

> have known a lot of his patients while living near Charlotte, NC.

> They continued very sick. I have known a few patients on Klonopin. I

> cannot see where it helped them. Indeed, they remain among the

> sickest patients I have known and one of them is now dead- probably

> not from the Klonopin.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Make that 3, me too. I would also like to ask Dr. S. if he thinks

that if one averages .5 mg. of K per day, if that is really enough

to be worried about? Thanks,

Mike C

>

> Klonopin is helping me a lot. Now I go straight to sleep, don't wake

> during the night, and wake up feeling more refreshed than when I went

> to sleep.

>

> So that's 2 people.

>

> Kat.

[Guest guest]

Pls disregard my previous message. I got confused by the new

format.

MC

> >

> > Klonopin is helping me a lot. Now I go straight to sleep, don't

wake

> > during the night, and wake up feeling more refreshed than when I

went

> > to sleep.

> >

> > So that's 2 people.

> >

> > Kat.

>

[Guest guest]

Doris, I am seeing slow but steady improvement in my severe tendon

problems of three years using Recuperation, two packs a day and about

800 mg of magnesium taurinate from VitaCost. I am not sure which is

helping the most as I started both the first week of November. I can

now walk, but still have some difficulty walking up and down stairs.

a

>

> I agree Levaquin is an EFFECTIVE drug, but that doesn't discount

the damage it can do to your tendons. I don't know what percentage

of the people get screwed up, but now that I am better from CFS, I am

left with these knees that hurt from walking and most any other

activity, maybe for the rest of my life which could be 40 years or 50

years.

>

> At a minimum, this warning needs to be very clear, and the minute

someone has pain they need to get off the drug. I took it early on,

and one doctor I saw completely belittled me for thinking it was

possible to cause the tendon pain, even though it was already in the

PDR. And it probably shouldn't be given at all unless every other

option has been tried first.

>

> Doris

> ----- Original Message -----

> a, I'm sorry you had such a bad experience with levaquin. I

had

> just the opposite and would hate for people not to know there are

2

> sides to this drug. I had bartonella as a co-infection with lyme

> and couldn't take rifampin for it because of P450 detox

problems. I

> took 6 weeks of PO levaquin and high dose IV doxy and got my

brain

> back - totally. I haven't been able to think, process and

function

> at this level for 6 years. I knew the risks when I took it, but

was

> desperate . . . I'm thankful it's still available.

>

> Peace to you,

> S.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have taken small half mg klonopin every 4-6

hours for muscle spasms and discomfort for MS,

FMS and CFS. Works for me..what are the risks?

[Guest guest]

I can't wait till I can get off klonopin. It is connected with nasty side

effects, like

leukopenia -- lowered white blood cell count (not good if we're trying to

improve immune

function), anemia (not good if we have lowered blood volume) etc. I think it

can be

tapered though and discontinued if done reeeeallly slowly (over a year --

depends on the

person), but is easier to discontinue if the cause of the symptoms (muscle

spasms,

anxiety, etc) are addressed (like treating fungal infections, etc.).

Here's a partial list of other effects, from

http://www.druginfonet.com/index.php?

pageID=klonopin.htm :

Neurologic: Abnormal eye movements, aphonia, choreiform movements, coma,

diplopia,

dysarthria, dysdiadochokinesis, " glassy-eyed " appearance, headache, hemiparesis,

hypotonia, nystagmus, respiratory depression, slurred speech, tremor, vertigo.

Psychiatric: Confusion, depression, amnesia, hallucinations, hysteria, increased

libido,

insomnia, psychosis, suicidal attempt (the behavior effects are more likely to

occur in

patients with a history of psychiatric disturbances).

Respiratory: Chest congestion, rhinorrhea, shortness of breath, hypersecretion

in upper

respiratory passages.

Cardiovascular: Palpitations.

Dermatologic: Hair loss, hirsutism, skin rash, ankle and facial edema.

Gastrointestinal: Anorexia, coated tongue, constipation, diarrhea, dry mouth,

encopresis,

gastritis, hepatomegaly, increased appetite, nausea, sore gums.

Genitourinary: Dysuria, enuresis, nocturia, urinary retention. Musculoskeletal:

Muscle

weakness, pains. Miscellaneous: Dehydration, general deterioration, fever,

lymphadenopathy, weight loss or gain.

Hematopoietic: Anemia, leukopenia, thrombocytopenia, eosinophilia.

Hepatic: Transient elevations of serum transaminases and alkaline phosphatase.

DRUG ABUSE AND DEPENDENCE: Withdrawal symptoms, similar in character to those

noted

with barbiturates and alcohol (e.g., convulsions, psychosis,, hallucinations,

behavioral

disorder, tremor, abdominal and muscle cramps) have occurred following abrupt

discontinuance of clonazepam. The more severe withdrawal symptoms have usually

been

limited to those patients who received excessive doses over an extended period

of time.

Generally milder withdrawal symptoms (e.g., dysphoria and insomnia) have been

reported

following abrupt discontinuance of benzodiazepines taken continuously at

therapeutic

levels for several months. Consequently, after extended therapy, abrupt

discontinuation

should generally be avoided and a gradual dosage tapering schedule followed.

Hope this helps...

Dan

, " julie levitt " <knightshotter@...> wrote:

>

>

>

> I have taken small half mg klonopin every 4-6

> hours for muscle spasms and discomfort for MS,

> FMS and CFS. Works for me..what are the risks?

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

From: pjeanneus

> > Dr. Schaller,

> > Dr. Cheney is not using low dose Klonopin for anxiety. He is using it

> > on sick people with cfids to stop " seizure activity " in the brain. I

> > have known a lot of his patients while living near Charlotte, NC.

> > They continued very sick. I have known a few patients on Klonopin. I

> > cannot see where it helped them. Indeed, they remain among the

> > sickest patients I have known and one of them is now dead- probably

> > not from the Klonopin.

I know this will be unpopular, but even Cheney admitted that when asked how many

of his

patients have recovered, he answered " None " .

He's a great man, a devoted doctor to our cause, almost a lone voice in the

early years, but

I think we need to remember he's only human, and we all tend to put him on a

pedestal...

In my opinion when he promoted Klonopin as not being addictive or habit forming,

and

" protecting the brain " , he should also have mentioned some of the very serious

side effects

connected with the drug.

d.

> >

> > I have been on Klonopin for 7 years and I got well while on it. Now

> I'm coming off because I don't think I need it anymore. But you now

> know at least 1 person who got well even while they were taking it.

> >

> > Doris

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: pjeanneus

> > Dr. Schaller,

> > Dr. Cheney is not using low dose Klonopin for anxiety. He is using it

> > on sick people with cfids to stop " seizure activity " in the brain. I

> > have known a lot of his patients while living near Charlotte, NC.

> > They continued very sick. I have known a few patients on Klonopin. I

> > cannot see where it helped them. Indeed, they remain among the

> > sickest patients I have known and one of them is now dead- probably

> > not from the Klonopin.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Believe me, I've talked to him about it this last year. He told me about 1%

of his patients got creamed by it. I'm in that 1%. Having spent three years

in benzo forums composed of 100% people creamed by it, it's hard to know

what is what percentage-wise, but hardly any of those other people in the

benzo forums had CFIDS as well.

But here's a possible clue. Cheney noted that I don't fall over on the

Romberg test, unlike the great percentage of his patients. He figures my

mental equilibrium is intact and speculates that taking klonopin throws it

off. Also I can count backwards from any given number by 7s all day long,

unlike the patients in Osler's Web. But my body is wiped out, I can hardly

walk a quarter mile.

Plus there is a genetic factor, my parents took benzos and got severe

depression, valium and xanax in their case, I took klonopin not knowing it

was related, and got severe depression. Someone studying medicine posted

some information on the benzo forum recently stating that benzos knock down

the dopamine system, and I figure I must really need my dopamine system left

the hell alone.

There is this subtle distinction between addiction and dependence that drug

companies exploit and basically lie about. Benzos are not addictive in the

sense that most users crave or abuse them although a few do, but they are

very much a substance that many become physically dependent on and have a

bitch of a time coming off them. Seems to depend on genetics, and the

doctors I worked with thought it was about 50% of the population who would

have trouble coming off.

Hard to tell for sure, I doubt any real studies have been done on it,

because the drug companies don't want to admit there is a problem with this

class of drugs. Generally people who have trouble are told by their doctors

they are mentally ill or that it's their fault in some way. I experienced

that with a doctor I asked for help, not Cheney, who is a very kind person.

By the way, Cheney thought the water titration method of coming off benzos

that I have been transmitting was the way to come off these drugs. It has

finally taken hold on the benzo forum and files have been created there,

including a power point slideshow of how to do it, if anyone is interested,

join benzo at .

Helen

>From: " kdrbrill " <kdrbrill@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: Demon Klonopin/ Suicide Rates/False Guilt

>Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 22:44:37 -0000

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> From: pjeanneus

> > > Dr. Schaller,

> > > Dr. Cheney is not using low dose Klonopin for anxiety. He is using

>it

> > > on sick people with cfids to stop " seizure activity " in the brain. I

> > > have known a lot of his patients while living near Charlotte, NC.

> > > They continued very sick. I have known a few patients on Klonopin. I

> > > cannot see where it helped them. Indeed, they remain among the

> > > sickest patients I have known and one of them is now dead- probably

> > > not from the Klonopin.

>

>I know this will be unpopular, but even Cheney admitted that when asked how

>many of his

>patients have recovered, he answered " None " .

>

>He's a great man, a devoted doctor to our cause, almost a lone voice in the

>early years, but

>I think we need to remember he's only human, and we all tend to put him on

>a pedestal...

>

>In my opinion when he promoted Klonopin as not being addictive or habit

>forming, and

> " protecting the brain " , he should also have mentioned some of the very

>serious side effects

>connected with the drug.

>

>d.

>

>

>

>

> > >

> > > I have been on Klonopin for 7 years and I got well while on it. Now

> > I'm coming off because I don't think I need it anymore. But you now

> > know at least 1 person who got well even while they were taking it.

> > >

> > > Doris

> > > ----- Original Message -----

> > > From: pjeanneus

> > > Dr. Schaller,

> > > Dr. Cheney is not using low dose Klonopin for anxiety. He is using

>it

> > > on sick people with cfids to stop " seizure activity " in the brain. I

> > > have known a lot of his patients while living near Charlotte, NC.

> > > They continued very sick. I have known a few patients on Klonopin. I

> > > cannot see where it helped them. Indeed, they remain among the

> > > sickest patients I have known and one of them is now dead- probably

> > > not from the Klonopin.

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Thanks Helen -- very interesting comments. I wish Dr. Cheney or his patient

Carol

Sieverling would post this information on her website. She still has

transcripts of her

conversation with the doctor from six years ago where he doesn't mention the

negatives.

Sincerely,

Dan

> > > >

> > > > I have been on Klonopin for 7 years and I got well while on it. Now

> > > I'm coming off because I don't think I need it anymore. But you now

> > > know at least 1 person who got well even while they were taking it.

> > > >

> > > > Doris

> > > > ----- Original Message -----

> > > > From: pjeanneus

> > > > Dr. Schaller,

> > > > Dr. Cheney is not using low dose Klonopin for anxiety. He is using

> >it

> > > > on sick people with cfids to stop " seizure activity " in the brain. I

> > > > have known a lot of his patients while living near Charlotte, NC.

> > > > They continued very sick. I have known a few patients on Klonopin. I

> > > > cannot see where it helped them. Indeed, they remain among the

> > > > sickest patients I have known and one of them is now dead- probably

> > > > not from the Klonopin.

> > > >

> > > >